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Post by davewatchman on Dec 15, 2018 10:55:12 GMT -6
The following is my general breakdown of the BoR as of 12/9/18. 1) The identification of the chronological-chapter-groups provides a means for harmonizing the Book of Revelation. These groups in chiasmus form are as follows: ch 1-3 ch 4-5 ch 6-7 ch 8-11 ch 12 (the BoR chiasmus center)
ch 13-14 ch 15-16 ch 17-19 ch 20-22 2) The key to unlocking the harmonization of the BoR is Chapter 12 because this chapter represents the entire 7 years of tribulation in chronological sequence as follows: vv. 12:1-5, pre-rapture v. 12:6, the 1st rapture
vv. 12:7-13, the war in heaven that metaphorically means the war upon the earth
v. 12:14, the 2nd rapture
vv. 12:15-17, post rapture 3) Therefore, the entire BoR can be placed into one of these five groups at the BoR chiasmus center. ch 1-3 ch 4-5 ch 6-7 ch 8-11 vv. 12:1-5, pre-rapture
v. 12:6, the 1st rapture
vv. 12:7-13, the war in heaven that metaphorically means the war upon the earth
v. 12:14, the 2nd rapture
vv. 12:15-17, post rapture
ch 13-14 ch 15-16 ch 17-19 ch 20-22 4) So basically at the beginning of the 7 years a war breaks out between good and evil (vv. 12:1-5). Then God takes his saints at two separate and distinct raptures (vv. 12:6, 14) that are interrupted by the intensification of the war (vv. 12:7-13). Last of all evil rages (vv. 12:15-17), and as we know this ends with the total destruction of man from the earth. I like your post here boraddict. It reminds me of how they make those pictures from the placement of text. (\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") (\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")(\__/) (='.'=) (")_(") I can't do it as good as you though. I have to cheat and copy other peoples efforts. My best is this: <----1260---->
<-----1290-----> 0.976744186046512
<------1335------> 0.966292134831461
<-------1372-------> 0.973032069970845(O)14(o) <------------1588------------> (O)14(o) (O)14(o) <----------1550----------> (O)14(o) (O)14(o) <---------1372---------> (O)14(o) (O)14(o) <--------1209--------> (O)14(o) (O)14(o) <------1195------> (O)14(o) <----1260---->
<-----1290-----> 0.976744186046512
<------1335------> 0.966292134831461
<-------1372-------> 0.973032069970845
(O)14(o) <------------1588------------> (O)14(o)
(O)14(o) <----------1550----------> (O)14(o)
(O)14(o) <---------1372---------> (O)14(o)
(O)14(o) <--------1209--------> (O)14(o)
(O)14(o) <------1195------> (O)14(o)
But i was copying from Another here also by using numbers from Daniel 12, and dividing them with numbers from the solar and lunar cycle. But i did have a couple of other more serious things to talk to you about. One of them is about the Ron Wyatt note you wrote. I also have an interest in him. I didn't know he was excommunicated from the SDA, or that he was even a part of the SDA. It makes sense now as he often uses the phrase: "Sunday Law" in his videos. But i'm still looking at it and have not decided about it for sure. There's certain things that he said that sound peculiar, but might have a serious fit with the Script. Why did he say FOUR angels were guarding the Ark? He might have said three. Like the SDA always talking about the three angels messages. Only one angel would be needed. Why four? Could they be the four angels that are holding back the four winds? By keeping the Ark safe where it is? Because they ARE going to remove that Ark at an appointed time so that the whole world will see it at the Seventh Trumpet. "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened,
and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.
There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.Could the the Ark, resting safely where it is, with Christ's blood on the mercy seat, be what's holding back the four winds of destruction. When those four angels take the Ark back to New Jerusalem, will that cause or allow the sudden destruction to begin? I can also contemplate some radical ideas. Like the New Jerusalem being cloaked inside of the moon all this time. So that when people look up at the Seventh Trumpet to see the Ark of His covenant within His Temple, they just have to look up to where the moon is. It might not hurt if the moon was closer at it's Perigee. The moon has a peculiar orbit where we always see the same face, it never spins around.  The Super Blood Wolf Moon Eclipse of January 21 might qualify as being within 90% of it's closest approach.  www.davidjayjordan.com/NewJerusalemintheMoon.htmlI'll have to save these questions for latter. And as we know this ends with the total destruction of man from the earth. And this is also a controversial view as well. But my views on this could be called controversial too. It can seem too radical to talk about in certain places. It reads to me like at the end of the tribulation, only two types of people will be here. The Saints who are saved by the Lord, and the wicked who are fighting against the Lord. All the Saints are safe with the Lord in the air, and the rest who are not killed by the seven last plagues, are slain by a sharp sword, a command, from the white horse Rider. That leaves nobody left. There are no fence sitters to survive. But like Natalie asked, if it ends with the destruction of man from the earth, just like in the days of Noah, who will populate the millennium. Or what is the state of the earth during the millennium? Who will populate the millennium? Is this the man who made the nations tremble? Who made the world like a desert
and overthrew its cities,
who did not let his prisoners go home?’
All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
each in his own tomb;
but you are cast out, away from your grave,
like a loathed branch,
clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword,
who go down to the stones of the pit,
like a dead body trampled underfoot.
You will not be joined with them in burial,
because you have destroyed your land,
you have slain your people.
Peaceful Sabbath. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 15, 2018 12:23:36 GMT -6
Thanks Dave. I got the impression that the four angels were to lift the four corners of the Mercy seat.
That is, prior to that time, Ron had only seen one angel in the cave. This was perhaps the 5th time he entered the cave and the second to last visit. That is, from the time that he seen the four angels he went into the cave one last time. Thus, from the time of the four lifting the Mercy seat he returned one last time. Prior to this, he had only seen one angel. Also, he did not see an angel on his first or last visit to the cave. So in total he seen the one angel on three visits (2nd, 3rd, and 4th) and the one angel with three others on the 5th visit. I think that is how the visits went down as follows:
first visit to the cave no angel
second visit to the cave 1 angel
third visit to the cave 1 angel
fourth visit to the cave 1 angel
fifth visit to the cave 4 angels
sixth visit to the cave no angel
I have not researched this in detail but this is how I remember it. After the last visit he never went back but tried to find another way into the cave. It was then that the Israeli Govt. attempted to follow his example and 6 men were killed. Ron's son at one point went to far into the cave and Ron was scared for his life. I think at that point Ron never went back. As I recall, for Ron's son a gate was placed in the cave to prevent him from going further. Afterwards, the gate was never seen again and that is when the 6 men were killed.
I get the impression that the Arc is in place for the final war show down as you have described.
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Post by davewatchman on Dec 15, 2018 13:06:13 GMT -6
Thanks Dave. I got the impression that the four angels were to lift the four corners of the Mercy seat. That is, prior to that time, Ron had only seen one angel in the cave. This was perhaps the 5th time he entered the cave and the second to last visit. That is, from the time that he seen the four angels he went into the cave one last time. Thus, from the time of the four lifting the Mercy seat he returned one last time. Prior to this, he had only seen one angel. Also, he did not see an angel on his first or last visit to the cave. So in total he seen the one angel on three visits (2nd, 3rd, and 4th) and the one angel with three others on the 5th visit. I think that is how the visits went down as follows: first visit to the cave no angel second visit to the cave 1 angel third visit to the cave 1 angel fourth visit to the cave 1 angel fifth visit to the cave 4 angels sixth visit to the cave no angel I have not researched this in detail but this is how I remember it. After the last visit he never went back but tried to find another way into the cave. It was then that the Israeli Govt. attempted to follow his example and 6 men were killed. Ron's son at one point went to far into the cave and Ron was scared for his life. I think at that point Ron never went back. As I recall, for Ron's son a gate was placed in the cave to prevent him from going further. Afterwards, the gate was never seen again and that is when the 6 men were killed. I get the impression that the Arc is in place for the final war show down as you have described. Thanks for the reply. I know that's what he said. He said four angels lifted the mercy seat and he reached in and took out the two tablets of stone and set them against the wall of the chamber. I'm just now watching the hour and thirty five minute New Zealand video. Ron can talk an hour and thirty five minutes uninterrupted and without a sip of water. And he never gets irritated by any of the people asking the questions. This link might start the video where Ron talks about the four angels. v637g.app.goo.gl/Y3m31NAnapenrTNv6And i hope you don't mind, but i couldn't resist. 420 is my lucky number. I might be a numerapologist. If there is such a thing.  |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 16, 2018 21:20:05 GMT -6
Continuing with a response to Rondon's previous posting.
There is more than one set of plagues as evidenced by Verse 15:1 wherein it states "seven angels having the seven last plagues." I say this because Rondon has stated "since Babylon (Rev. 18) is being destroyed by God's Plagues (Seals, Trumpets and Vials) how can there be a Rapture in these passages of Rev. 18 ?"
My point being that the Vials as referenced by Rondon are the seven last plagues. Therefore, it is incorrect to consider Chapter 16 that contains the vials of the seven last plagues as having any placement in Chapter 18. Thus, the plagues as referenced in Chapter 18 are not the plagues as referenced in Chapters 15-16. Further, the plagues of Chapter 18 harmonize with the plagues of Chapter 6 as follows:
v. 6:8, "kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth"
v. 18:8, "death, mourning, and famine, and she shall be utterly burned with fire"
Thus, the plagues upon Babylon as described in Chapter 18 are not the vials of Chapter 16 but the plagues of Verses 6:8 and 18:8.
Secondly, the trumpets of Chapters 8-11 can be harmonized with the vials of Chapter 16 and not with the plagues of Chapters 6 and 8.
This leaves the seals as having some harmonization to the plagues of Verses 6:8 and 18:8 and this is perhaps reasonable when considering that the four horsemen seem to have an application to the four plagues.
Since the saints are referred to as the kings and merchants of the earth in Chapter 18 evidenced by their mourning for Babylon (vv. 18:9, 11) in contrast to those who hate Babylon (vv. 17:16, 18:2), then those who are no longer in Babylon that are the merchants, etc. (vv. 18:22-24) have been taken out of her by rapture and/or death. The point in Chapter 18 in which they (the saints) are taken out of her is at Verse 18:21 wherein the angel of Verse 18:1-2 casts a stone into the sea (v. 18:21) causing fallen Babylon (v. 18:2) to "be found no more at all"; thus, destroyed Babylon (v. 18:21).
That is, there is a difference between "fallen Babylon" (v. 18:2) and Babylon that is "found no more at all" (v. 18:21). This is reinforced in Verse 19:3 wherein the "smoke" of her burning links to the smoke that is "as the smoke of a great furnace" (v. 9:2). That is, the smoke that is the evidence of her burning is the children of the beast (v. 14:11) that are tormented forever. This smoke occurs prior to the harvest of Verses 14:14-16. Thus, at Verse 14:8 Babylon is fallen, and at Verse 14:11 Babylon is found no more and therefore destroyed.
This means that the mark of the beast is prior to the rapture (v. 14:9 is before 14:12) and the rise of the beast is before the rapture (v. 13:1 is before v. 13:10). That is, the rise of the beast is before the rapture (v. 17:3 is before v. 18:21). In other words, there are groups of chapters that harmonize and one of those groups is Chapters 17 through 19 with the rapture in this group occurring at Verse 18:21.
Afterwords, is the marriage in Chapter 19 and the second woe that is Lord Jesus putting down the beast (vv. 19:11-21). Thus, the four plagues (vv. 6:8, 18:8) that are associated with the fall of Babylon that is caused by the beast, may not be associated with the destruction of Babylon that is caused by the rapture of the saints. The series of events seems to be as follows:
1) rise of the beast
2) Babylon is fallen and inhabited by devils with the mark of the beast and this means that saints can no longer participate in Babylon. This is the first set of plagues.
3) saints are taken in the rapture and Babylon is destroyed by not only their absence but also a curse and judgment that Babylon is no more evidenced by the smoke of her burning that is the curse upon those who take the mark. This is the first woe that lasts for 3.5 years
4) the marriage of the Lamb
5) the destruction of the beast. This is the second woe that lasts for 3.5 years
I realize that I am rehashing old material but it is the plagues that I am trying to address. The plagues of Chapters 6 and 18 precede the plagues of Chapters 8-11 and 16.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 17, 2020 7:55:13 GMT -6
For sometime I have thought about the story in the Book of Revelation as a repeated story line; and recently have delineated that narrative into seven parts as follows:
1) Chapter 6 tells us about four horsemen that are four of the major events shaping the last days. These four are parts belonging to a larger "panoramic view" of seven seals that are not the emphasis of the chapter; because, only six of the seven are included within the chapter. Thus, chapter six is more about the four horsemen and less about the seven seals.
2) Chapters 7-8 tells a story about the 144,000 in their gathering prior to the seventh seal. Secondary evidence to this fact lies in the last verse of Chapter 8 (Rev. 8:13) which emphasizes the call of the angel as depicted in Rev. 7:1-4.
3) Chapter 9 places an emphasis upon the beast and his ultimate destruction and secondly; although two of the three woes are included within this chapter they are clearly not the emphasis of this chapter. Like the seals above, if the woes were the emphasis of the chapter then all three would have been included.
4) Chapters 10-11 are about the two witnesses and it is here that Chapter 4 as a side note has it's primary application at Rev. 11:12.
5) Chapter 12 is in harmony with Chapter 6 although the emphasis in Chapter 12 is upon the victory of Christ in contrast to the destruction by the beast in Chapter 6.
6) Chapters 13-16 show the contrasting behavior between the beast and his followers (ch. 13) vs. Christ and his followers (ch. 14) and the events after the beast has been destroyed (ch. 15-16).
7) Chapters 17-19 show the fall of Babylon beginning with the rise of the beast upon whom Babylon sits (Rev. 17:4) followed by her destruction (Rev. 17:16). Then after Babylon has fallen as stated in Rev. 18:2 the aftermath of her destruction is given in Chapter 18. Then Chapter 19 concludes this story as shown with the reference at Rev. 19:2 that links to Rev. 18:20. That is, the links between Chapters 18-19 show that Chapter 19 follows Chapter 18. Thus, the climax to this story is the destruction of the beast at Rev. 19:20.
So, as you can see, the BofR is a repeated story in seven parts and a different emphasis is placed upon each part.
As for Chapters 1-3, 5, and 20-22, the first is the introduction, the second is the actual beginning of the revelation, and the third is the conclusion; however, these do not contain the story as given in the seven parts above.
Part 1, The Four Horsemen that provides the four main events that are unfolding here in the last days. 1) Christ as the rider of the white horse as shown via the link Rev. 6:2 to Rev. 19:11. In association with this is the link from Verse 6:2 to Rev. 12:2 showing that the white horse is actually the great sign of 2017.
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Post by yardstick on Jun 17, 2020 15:07:22 GMT -6
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Post by boraddict on Jun 17, 2020 20:18:39 GMT -6
Yardstick, I looked at the posting that you referenced on page two of this thread and am including an excerpt as follows:
"So the one in Rev. 6:2 infers a Crown of twine won via a prize in some sort of game, meanwhile the word used for crown in Rev. 19:12 infers this Conqueror has many crowns and they were of kingly origins to boot. So the White horse Conqueror of Rev. 6 is someone winning a battle and thus a crown of a victor in battle, but of course Jesus' Crowns in Rev. 19 are the real deal, not something he won, he is the Son of God. Amen. This is when it hit me what Bow means in Rev. 6;2, we are speaking about a Crown made of a Wreath and a King wearing SIMPLE FABRIC !! So the bow means simple fabric as per the Greek and thus he's is not seen as Majestic like the other rider in Rev. 19:12, in other words he is no Jesus, he's a pretender !!"
This quote may in fact support my case because the crown that was given to the Savior was a "crown of thorns". It was a tauntingly fabricated wreath designed to mock the Savior as his winning prize by the Roman soldiers. In contrast are the many crowns of honor that are worn by the Savior in Rev. 19:12. So it is reasonable that the Savior wore both types of crowns; the first in Rev. 6:2 as the crown of thorns, and secondly the one in Verse 19:12 as his crowns of honor. If I am correct, then the Savior is the rider of the white horse having received a crown of thorns at his persecution and now coming forth conquering and to conquer (v. 6:2) as shown in Chapter 19.
Continuing with my analysis pertaining to the story in the BofR being repeated seven times (Part 1 is the Chapter 6 four horsemen). The rider of the second horse is the dragon as referenced in Chapter 12 (Rev. 12:3) and the red horse (Rev. 6:4) is COVID 19. Further, this analysis shows that the next event is the "sword" of Rev. 6:4 (Rev. 12:4) that is a military action initiated by China upon the U. S. (IMO). Other than these two references (vv. 6:4, 12:4) there does not appear to be any further references to the dragon with respect to China's role in the BofR story except that the dragon (China) gives power unto the beast (Rev. 13:2). That is, China's military move against the U. S. (both being heavily damaged) leaves only one major player on the world stage and that is Russia (the beast).
The next event is that of the rapture as shown at Rev. 6:5-6, 12:5-6. This shows that the black horse is the rapture and the rider is the man-child of Rev. 12:5. This leader is further referenced in all seven story parts. For example at Rev. 6:5, 7:3,, 10:1, 12:5, 14:6, 17:16.
Lastly, the fourth horse rider is the beast and he is found in all of the seven parts of the story.
Continuing with the analysis; the 1st part is the four horsemen of Chapter 6 as I have previously explained and now for the 2nd part that is the 144,000. This story segment begins at Rev. 7:1 with the restraining of the judgment of God by the angel in Verses 7:2-3. This powerful angel is that servant from part 1 that is the rider of the black horse; although, I may not find evidence to support that conclusion. Nevertheless, if the analysis is correct, then the repeated story-line provides some degree of proof.
Please notice that both the 1st part (Chapter 6) and the 2nd part (Chapters 7-8) end with the judgment of God. Additionally, the judgment of God is found in the 4th part (Chapters 10-11) at the end of that section, as well as the 6th part (Chapters 13-16) at the end of that section. Whereas, the 3rd part of the repeated story-line (Chapter 9) ends with the destruction of the beast as does the 7th part (Chapters 17-19). This leaves the 5th part of the repeated story-line (Chapter 12) as the only one of the seven that does not have the ending as the judgment of God or the destruction of the beast. The following shows this information:
Part 1 (Ch. 6) ending with the judgement of God (Rev. 6:12-17)
Part 2 (Ch. 7-8) ending with the judgement of God (Rev. 8:6-12)
Part 3 (Ch. 9) ending with the destruction of the beast (Rev. 9:16-21)
Part 4 (Ch, 10-11) ending with the judgement of God (Rev. 11:16-19)
Part 5 (Ch. 12) ending with the attack of Satan (Rev. 12:17). This ending sits between the destruction of the beast and the judgment of God (IMO).
Part 6 (Ch. 13-16) ending with the judgement of God (Rv. 16:20)
Part 7 (Ch. 17-19) ending with the destruction of the beast (Rev. 19:19-21)
Please notice that the destruction of the beast is first as referenced in Rev. 15:2 followed by the judgement of God (Rev. 16:20). However, between these two ending points there is something else going on as shown in shown in Chapter 16. This ending analysis needs to be explored further in order to solve the mystery.
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Post by Natalie on Jun 18, 2020 10:49:11 GMT -6
How can Jesus be in heaven opening the seals for the calling forth of each horseman and be the first horseman? It's got to be two separate individuals...John watches the Lamb open the seal, then John sees a horse and rider appear, then he sees Jesus open the next seal.
From my understanding studying this stuff, the word "come" is a drawing out and sending forth. Jesus is calling forth the horsemen and then sending them out. It can't be Jesus on the white horse.
Jesus will appear on His white horse at the end, as King, to defeat Satan and his minions.
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Post by Natalie on Jun 18, 2020 11:02:07 GMT -6
I also don't understand how the black horse is the rapture and the rider is the man-child who is also an angel (using your references).
The black horse is what brings inflation...follows the previous horseman who causes war.
Jesus is sending the black horse to the earth. It would be different if the horse was returning from earth.
Edit- I reread your post and see that further down you said you might not have support for the black horse theory.
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Post by mike on Jun 18, 2020 11:57:34 GMT -6
boraddict I want you to understand that you are a beloved sister in the Lord! I appreciate your kindness, and your diligent search of the truth, especially for the book you are addicted to. In this case I would like to offer some direction: Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.Many of us understand that the Lord wants us to prove ourselves, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, but sometimes we do need those listed above to help us achieve 'perfecting' until we are unified in faith & knowledge of the Son. In my own pursuit to understand and mature I have been listening to several of Dr. Chuck Misslers sermons on various topics. In the below he does detail the rider on the white horse. There are other sermons covering the other horses as well. I encourage you to listen to the understanding of someone who may see this topic from another point of view. If you do and still arrive at a different conclusion, that's ok.
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Post by yardstick on Jun 18, 2020 16:17:06 GMT -6
Yardstick, I looked at the posting that you referenced on page two of this thread and am including an excerpt as follows: "So the one in Rev. 6:2 infers a Crown of twine won via a prize in some sort of game, meanwhile the word used for crown in Rev. 19:12 infers this Conqueror has many crowns and they were of kingly origins to boot. So the White horse Conqueror of Rev. 6 is someone winning a battle and thus a crown of a victor in battle, but of course Jesus' Crowns in Rev. 19 are the real deal, not something he won, he is the Son of God. Amen. This is when it hit me what Bow means in Rev. 6;2, we are speaking about a Crown made of a Wreath and a King wearing SIMPLE FABRIC !! So the bow means simple fabric as per the Greek and thus he's is not seen as Majestic like the other rider in Rev. 19:12, in other words he is no Jesus, he's a pretender !!" This quote may in fact support my case because the crown that was given to the Savior was a "crown of thorns". It was a tauntingly fabricated wreath designed to mock the Savior as his winning prize by the Roman soldiers. In contrast are the many crowns of honor that are worn by the Savior in Rev. 19:12. So it is reasonable that the Savior wore both types of crowns; the first in Rev. 6:2 as the crown of thorns, and secondly the one in Verse 19:12 as his crowns of honor. If I am correct, then the Savior is the rider of the white horse having received a crown of thorns at his persecution and now coming forth conquering and to conquer (v. 6:2) as shown in Chapter 19.... Thank you for taking a look into this. I have color coded responses to what I color coded in the quote. The crown that was given, as described in Matt 27:29, was also a Stephanos:biblehub.com/matthew/27-29.htmSee also Mark 15 and John 19. They all use Stephanos, rather than Diadema.
I agree that there was mockery, that the soldiers were mocking Jesus by using the crown of achievement - to become King of the Jews, rather than the Diadema of Kingship. Chronologically, one could speculate that Jesus was not yet crowned King with Diadema, until after death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, but before becoming seated at the right hand of the Father.At which point then, does he ride forth without the Diadema, but only the Stephanos? Must he not yet have been crowned with the Diadema for Him to be the rider as you describe? If so, then riding forth to conquer must have occurred prior to being crowned (Diadema) and seated at the right hand of the Father; not so? Does this not negate the prophetic significance of the passage (Rev 6:1)? Are you suggesting that he has not yet been crowned King? If so, when does he stop conquering and become seated with Diadema as King?
In addition, for Christ to have been the only one capable of opening the seals (wherein the rider with the toxon and Stephanos comes) must he not first have been legally capable as the crowned (Diadema) King and owner? If this is true, then is it not impossible for Him to be both the Title Deed Owner/Crowned (Diadema) King and the white rider?
Lastly, have you noticed that the white rider is commanded to 'come forth'? Can the one of the four living creatures command the King?
Isn't it possible that having already been crowned with the Diadema after ascending to the Father, he does not wear the Stephanos? Therefore, must not the white rider be someone other than Christ?
Maybe a good study would be to find in scripture all of the passages where Christ is shown wearing the Stephanos, not the Diadema? I have isolated three already (above).
May I point out that the crowns in Rev 19:12 are Diadema, not Stephanos? Are not Stephanos the crowns of honor, and Diadema the crowns of Kingship?
By the way, I think you found something exceptionally insightful in this statement. I believe your observation that the white rider on the horse of the first seal is a pretender, fits perfectly with the understanding of who the AC is - the rider on the Rev 6 white horse.
If the Rev 6 rider is a pretender, the AC; then the rider of Rev 6 cannot be the rider of Rev 19 - cannot be Christ, QED. |
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Post by yardstick on Jun 18, 2020 16:20:45 GMT -6
boraddict I want you to understand that you are a beloved sister in the Lord! I appreciate your kindness, and your diligent search of the truth, especially for the book you are addicted to. In this case I would like to offer some direction: Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.Many of us understand that the Lord wants us to prove ourselves, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, but sometimes we do need those listed above to help us achieve 'perfecting' until we are unified in faith & knowledge of the Son. In my own pursuit to understand and mature I have been listening to several of Dr. Chuck Misslers sermons on various topics. In the below he does detail the rider on the white horse. There are other sermons covering the other horses as well. I encourage you to listen to the understanding of someone who may see this topic from another point of view. If you do and still arrive at a different conclusion, that's ok. ... Of particular note in these vids (which I have already watched), Missler points out that Biblically, horses are symbolic of Judgment. If this is the case, then both riders on white horses (the Stephanos rider of the first seal, and Christ at his second advent) are coming upon the earth in Judgment. This conforms with the context of both Rev 6 and Rev 19 passages. davewatchman , boraddict , yardstick , Natalie , mike , |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 18, 2020 20:21:28 GMT -6
I think this forum is over 7 years old by now? I got here only 3 years ago. so, if I say something that someone already made a strong case for or against, its because we have so many threads now it is hard to keep track.
My question: WHY is judgement only to occur from a certain starting point, when this: 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
This is THE statement the defines judgement, for me, using what God's Son says it is. UNBELIEF Granted, this is an English translation of a greek writing written from a jewish mindset. egads.
I think sometimes we build up a picture of what "judgement" looks like according to the flesh. So, I ask, what is it you, the believer, to expect to see that tells you "judgement is happening"... ?
Sometimes a judgement is made and people are found NOT guilty...in a court of law, right?
What is being judged in regard to Christ? isn't it unbelief ? ...according to what Jesus says in the book of John?
What does unbelief look like? Does it ALWAYS look like murder? Riots? lies? Thinking man controls the weather? think of something YOU think is evil. Truly, the only thing that really demonstrates unbelief in these few lists is "MAN can control anything." A person can lie and be laying down his life for the Lord no matter what, but lied at some point while he was ministering.
If this thread is about chronological and defending this as what John was shown it was as such, then how does one explain Rev 12:1,2 having occurred?
For me, Jesus promised He would "send" a Helper. AND, if He is Seated in Heaven as Authority, there is no room for unrighteousness, which tells me that there is no room for the devil in the Thrown room, or Heavenly Temple.
To add one more thing, this is what I thought we were taught about what riders on horses are for: Zechariah 1
7On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to Zechariah the prophet, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo, as follows: 8I saw at night, and behold, a man was riding on a red horse, and he was standing among the myrtle trees which were in the ravine, with red, sorrel and white horses behind him. 9Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” And the angel who was speaking with me said to me, “I will show you what these are.” 10And the man who was standing among the myrtle trees answered and said,
“These are those whom the LORD has sent to patrol the earth.” The word patrol, according to Hub suggests walking to and fro. I they are given directives, by Jesus, to do things. And the white horse rider is sent to overcome. His weapon is empty of arsenals. He is not "killing" but rather patrolling overcomers. To this day I can not see why people say he is the antichrist.
just my 100 pennies on the matter...
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Post by boraddict on Jun 18, 2020 21:42:39 GMT -6
yardstick , mike , barbiosheepgirl , It is going to take some time for me to go through all of the information that you have provided. However, I think we all can agree that the Savior has always been crowned as God. That being said, then the reference to crown or crowns does not pertain to Jesus' Godhead position but something else. For this reason it seems reasonable that "crowns" as referenced in Rev. 19:12 shows the Saviors leadership of the 24 elders from Rev. 4:10. That is, the event at Verse 4:10 wherein the elders cast their crowns at the Savior's feet occurs sometime prior to Verse 19:12. IMO, these two events are back to back. So what does this mean? Perhaps it means that crowns in 19:12 denotes the Savior's leadership over the 24 elders in his warfare expedition of Chapter 19. | Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 |
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| Rev. 11:16, the 24 elders are before the throne of God |
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| Rev. 19:4, the 24 elders are before the throne of God |
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| Rev. 4:10, the 24 elders cast their crowns before the Savior |
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| Rev. 19:12, Lord Jesus has the crowns |
With the above information it can be demonstrated that the rapture takes place after the fall of Babylon to wit: The call to "come up" takes place at Rev. 11:12 and then the elders are before the throne at Rev. 11:16. This evidence is supported in Chapter 4 that the call to "come up" is at Rev. 4:1 and then at Rev. 4:10 the elders are before the throne. Lastly, the elders are before the throne at Rev. 19:4 after Babylon has fallen as stated in Rev. 19:2. Please note that the saints have been avenged in Verse 19:2 that corresponds directly to Rev. 18:20; a verse that is after Babylon has fallen as stated in Rev. 18:2. Therefore, Babylon falls and then the saints are called up to heaven and this is the marriage as shown in Rev. 19:9. So the events chronologically are 1) the fall of Babylon, 2) the call up to heaven, 3) the marriage, and then 4) the destruction of the beast. The fall of Babylon began with the COVID19 (IMO). Sometime in the next few months or years we should see the killing blow from the beast in Babylon's complete destruction and the rapture will follow. Another interesting point about the events as outlined in Chapter 11 is that the earthquake (Rev. 11:13) seems to point to the rapture.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 27, 2020 16:51:35 GMT -6
Working on the timeline for my new theory as follows:
1) 2,000 years ago The Angel comes to the earth Rev. 10:1-2
The Angel gives John the revelation (Rev. 1:1) Rev. 10:3-10
John writes the revelation in a book Rev. 10:11
2) Great Sign 9/23/2017 (IMO) Rider of the White horse (Christ, Rev. 19:11) Rev. 6:1-2, 12:1-2
The 4 angels (judgments IMO) ready to hurt the earth and sea Rev. 7:1
3) COVID19 (IMO, Isa. 18) Rider (China, IMO) of the Red horse Rev. 6:3-4, 12:3-4
4) Civil War (IMO, Isa. 19) Rider (angel, IMO) of the Black horse Rev. 6:5
Man Child (Christ, IMO, Rev. 19:15) Rev. 12:5
5) Rapture (IMO, 3.5 years) Instruction from Christ (IMO, Rev. 5:6) Rev. 6:6, 7:2-3
Woman fled into wilderness (exodus) Rev. 12:6
6) Temple is built The Temple and Jerusalem Rev. 11:1-2
7) Protected 3.5 years (Rev. 11:3) The two witnesses Rev. 11:3-6
This theory shows that Chapter 10 is the leading chapter of the BofR (excluding the introductory Chapters 1-3, 5). The angel came and per the Savior's instructions gave the revelation to John. The order of chapters including the introduction is: 5, 1-3, 10, followed by the weaving together of the remaining chapters up to and including Chapter 19.
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