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Post by davewatchman on Jun 30, 2018 10:19:34 GMT -6
I get what you mean about a pressure relief valve. Whether I'm right or wrong, I decided I have to live like we have time left. There is too much that I wasn't doing because we were "out of time". And that was foolish and made me miserable. Funny how much pressure that created! I think you have some really valid points about the dates. I hadn't calculated from 1535 but you're right... that's pretty important. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree... it will be interesting to see what happens! Obviously I have no idea whether my "dual 70 week theory" is correct or not, but I'm going to dig into it more if we're still here in 2019. But even if the dates I gave in #4 above don't work out, #1-3 above still make sense in my mind. Why did God give the eclipses in 2017 and 2024, marking a 7 year timeframe? Is it coincidence that the second temple took (approximately) 3.5 years to complete (after the interruptions stopped) and Jesus' ministry was 3.5 years? Why are the witnesses dead for exactly 3.5 days? Why does it say that "no one gives up worshiping idols" at the second trumpet, which is 3.5 years from the beginning of the Great Tribulation? All very curious in my mind! I'm going to live like we have time left and be presently surprised if I see you all in heaven sooner than I expect  I hesitate the reply because my answers will sound contradictory to the standard eschatology. 3.5 + 3.5 = 7, and 2017 + 2024 = 7. And never the twain shall meet. And we won't get sick and we won't get any older and we won't ever die. But i think you and me and the people like us on this forum will all be Old friends living in New Jerusalem by 2024. And i'm not even sure about the 3.5 years. It's the 1260 days and the 42 months that i'm worried about. The 1260 days of the Two Witnesses must run out 3.5 days before the 42 months of the beast that ascendeth out from the bottomless pit. I don't think he will rise out of the bottomless pit and immediately go kill the Two Witnesses. This is just used as an identifier. Of the various beasts that are mentioned in Revelation's narrative, it is the one that rises up from the bottomless pit that will make war on and kill the two Witnesses at the end of their 1260 days. Why does it say that "no one gives up worshiping idols" at the second trumpet, which is 3.5 years from the beginning of the Great Tribulation? Because the second trumpet woe is just about right at the end of 1260 days from the beginning of the great tribulation? I knew you meant woe, it goes without saying. See how easy it is to get discombobulated in the end times? I think the second woe will be really close to the end of the 1260 days, like in the last week of it. It's the demonic angels that will kill a third of mankind. They will work fast. When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the Gospel will have been preached to every nation, and then the end, and the end of salvation will have come. "And the rest of mankind, which were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk: and they repented not of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.Because "The rest of mankind" at the second woe, are the same as the "rest of the dead" from Revelation 20. They are dead men walking, dreadful sorry Clementine. These two groups of humanity have been defined at this point. Everybody will have made their decision by then, the locust's sting from the first woe had motivated all the procrastinators and fence sitters from the first group. The second woe, mentioned also in Chapter 11 at the end of the Two Witnesses' 1260 days, says "the rest" were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven", but they still are not going to repent of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. "And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.The second woe is the equivalent to the end of Daniel 11 where it reads: "and he shall go out with great fury to destroy and devote many to destruction". The news "from the east" is news from Heaven, east is Heaven. Lightning from the east, an angel ascending from the east. The news from the east is the sounding of the sixth trumpet. He will have just a short amount of days remaining until he goes back into the abyss. And the third woe is an easy woe for the righteous who lived by faith. The third woe is only a woe for the "rest of mankind". When they hear the loud trumpet call, and they see the saints from all of history, and from all the seas, shoot up and light up the stratosphere, and then we who remain, they are going to be gut sick. They are going to know the woe and that they missed out on something very big. Why did God give the eclipses in 2017 and 2024, marking a 7 year timeframe? I don't know. And why did He give them to the USA? Would they work if He gave them to Israel? Because the "X" marks the spot. And the dragon stood on the sands of the seas of Europe in 1798 looking out across the pond at the USA while it swallowed up the flood that had spewed forth from his mouth. In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. There were four blood moons and God was opening up a new continent. It would become the earth who would help the woman after the 1260 years of fish head hat persecution. "The pasturelands of the cities, which you shall give to the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city outward a thousand cubits all around. - Numbers 35:4 I kept getting stuck on the idea that the temple mount has ceased to be the "holy place" since the day that the curtain was rent. So what I did was to relax my criteria and consider other possibilities for what might be a "holy place" in our appointed time of the end. If the Roman army could be considered to be standing in a "holy place" because the "earth" surrounding the city wall of Jerusalem from 1500 feet outwards was the land given to the Levites by God, there might be other "holy places" that we've overlooked. After all, the NT Script does NOT say: "when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the temple". "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy."
And Joshua did so. - Joshua 5:15 Most haven't recognized the U.S.A. as the holy place but when God does a thing it becomes holy, rather than the thing being holy so that God does it. Like when the "ground" became holy for Moses and Joshua. America became the earth who would help the woman in 1776 and at the same time the holy place established by God as a refuge from the persecutions of the church in Rome. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God. A "place prepared by God" is a holy place. During the Foxe Book days of Europe, the Dragon was chasing the Woman. A flood was spewing forth from the dragon's mouth but with the help of men like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson a holy place, the earth, would be made ready to help the woman after 1260 years of Pay Pal persecution came to an end in 1798. The first nation on the planet complete with a "Bible belt" was to be born when it was previously illegal to be caught with one. In 1776 America was founded and would become a safe place for God's people to own, print and study their Bibles. Prior to this in the dark ages of Europe, entire villages of Christian men, women and children had none of these religious freedoms and were burnt at the stake more often than not for reading or owning their own Bibles. Read the Wiki page on the Waldensians and their Peidmont Easter. This was the dragon chasing the woman and these and the estimated 75 million or more Christian martyrs of that prophetic time period would become the 5th seal souls beneath the alter. Lucifer was the hand that used the early church like a glove which hit the woman very hard during the middle ages. But she was nourished and the founding fathers of the USA made sure that church and state were separate, America! America! God shed His grace on thee. But i'm afraid to ask now, do all good things come to an end? Are we still the "holy place"? We were on June 26, 2015 when the abomination stood. But God may have rent the curtain again. The great American eclipse seemed to be marking an "X" in the center of a geographical population location in the TIME of American history. Was that "curtains" for the USA? I don't know. Chasing the Center"With the turning of each decade since 1790, the U.S. Census Bureau has calculated the center of the American population. The bureau describes the point as, “the place where an imaginary, flat, weightless and rigid map of the United States would balance perfectly if all residents were of identical weight.” So the number of persons on each side of the center point is equal.  www.812magazine.com/article/2017/05/chasing-the-center It looks uncanny to me how in 1798 the center was right at Washington DC. And then it meanders west to our time when the X marks a spot close by to the center. But i don't know what it means. Have we passed the point of being the holy place. Is it just a technical term now, in name only? I don't think there's too much time left to find out.  P.S. While i have the net warmed up, i'll leave a couple links to others who have also found the Abomination and that the USA is the holy place. But the funny thing is, one guy found the Abomination, but he hates the USA, so he takes a stroke when i mention it. My discussions from mid July 2015 are the first that i've ever heard of. In this page the author also recognizes the USA as the glorious land from Daniel 11: Entering the Glorious Landby James Rafferty | November 2, 2015 “He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown…”(Daniel 11:41). The idea that Israel and the Middle East are central to the fulfillment of eschatological prophecy has most of the world looking in another direction, while the purposes of the papacy move steadily forward. The present focus on Islamic terrorism is perhaps one of the cleverest smoke screens ever concocted to divert our attention from the divinely inspired prophetic picture laid out in Daniel 11 and Revelation 13. The fear of terrorism has led to the theft of our civil liberties, a direct fulfillment of the transformation from “lamb-like” to “dragon-like” noted in Revelation 13:11. Yet the greatest and most significant mistake being made by Christians at large, and U.S. foreign policy in particular, is our refusal to understand that the “glorious land,” designated by God as literal Palestine, has long since been transferred to the shores of America. This is the land designated in Bible prophecy as the “earth” that helps the “woman” (Revelation 12:14-16). America is the “place” designated by God for His New Testament church, the land that swallowed the flood of persecution during the latter part of the Dark Ages. www.lightbearers.org/entering-the-glorious-land/And boost this video up at the 10:45 to the 12:00 minute zone for an excellent description of the USA as the "holy place": And from July 2015, see how Luke takes the instructions to flee from Matthew's Abomination, and places them in chapter 17 after the mention of the "days of Lot": www.christianforums.com/threads/days-of-lot-abomination-that-makes-desolate.7897896/It is the 1290 days from Abomination to "darkened" sun that keeps me on edge. Add that to everything else, and i just can't see it being a coincidence. DS/AoD<-------1290 days------->Sun/Moon. www.christianforums.com/blogs/standing-in-the-holy-place.52401/Peaceful Sabbath. |
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Post by boraddict on Jun 30, 2018 11:01:51 GMT -6
Barb, I think you have several good points to consider. The 3.5 year conclusion that you made may be right on: "BUT, in looking at the Trumpets, perhaps this is the key to this Sign last September. Perhaps this marker is to suggest there is but a 3 1/2 year period of time until the Wrath (which may or may not include the Trumpets).
"
This made me think of the possibility that Verse 12:6 is a 3.5 year period and then the war that takes place in the center, and then the last 3.5 years in Verse 12:14. The timeline might look as follows:
1) 3.5 years
2) the war
3) 3.5 years
Again
1) This first 3.5 years might begin with the great sign in Sept 2017 (v. 12:1-2) and end with the Dragon in Sept 2020 (v. 12:3-4) followed by the rapture and a 5 month period to Passover 2021.
2) This war is spoken of in Verses 12:7-11 as "the type" of the war in heaven and "the shadow" of the war in Verses 19:11-21. This war is at Passover 2021.
3) The second 3.5 years that begin after the war will end in Sept of 2024.
If this is correct, then the 3.5 years has begun and we are now looking for the rapture before the war that takes place at March 2021. Perhaps more appropriately Passover of 2021. Thus, five months before that war (Verse 9:5, 10) is the rapture. Thus, the rapture is at Sept. 2020.
It means that we are now in the seven years of tribulation that began with the Great Sign. Next are the events preceding the rapture of Sept 2020. So we have 2 years and 3 months to go and several events of the first 3.5 years to see.
There is nothing saying that the seven years of tribulation come in with a bang. So the Tribulation started quietly with little notice except for the Great Sign.
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Post by venge on Jun 30, 2018 11:08:38 GMT -6
Ok venge I spent a bit more time. 1st of all here is the link: philologos.org/__eb-ta/4VisionH.htm#xii1Here is from an excerpt of Bullinger in regards to the song sung in 12:10 And Bullinger goes on to say: I don't know if I fully agree with this guy, but lets try to find some common ground with us modern day present peoples. Bullinger did make an interesting observation: These two verses seem to be saying the same thing From Ch 11 and Ch 12... Look at these two verses: 15Then the seventh angel sounded (7th trumpet); and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”and 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12“For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”Personally, I have not seen these verses this way side by side, but it seems to be saying the same thing and worthy of a closer look.. but lets continue on finding common ground: You and many others do not agree with me that the Seals have been open, at least the first 4 Seals. So I may be the one with the problem here in organizing what is going on,,, BUT, in looking at the Trumpets, perhaps this is the key to this Sign last September. Perhaps this marker is to suggest there is but a 3 1/2 year period of time until the Wrath (which may or may not include the Trumpets). I am considering that the 5th, 6th and 7th Seals will be open rather close together. The 7th Seal we know preceeds the 1st Trumpet. The Trumpets do not preceed any of the Seals..right? do all agree on that? Chapter 6 of Rev ends on the 6th Seal and we get to Ch 7 which I believe is a separate vision to show more detail to John, Just like Chapter 14 is. Then Ch 8 brings us to the 7th Seal..which clearly leads to the 1st Trumpet. We do not know how long the events of each trumpet are in days or years. But there is much symbolism with trees and grass and sea and blood..Your analysis of that I found helpful. Has anyone ever consider the that 7 Angels that sound the trumpets are the same angels of the Churches? and can the Bowls be part of the Trumpets? And, is there any indication that the Trumpet and Bowls are layered together? Barbie, Just touching on a few random things...cause that's what I do =P You quoted Bullinger saying, I find it interesting he does not define what beast when he says " The Beast will be reigning on the earth during the first half of this week". Is he talking about the beast of the earth or the beast of the sea? Then he goes on to say without any facts " The Beast, having received his "deadly wound," reappears in his superhuman form". The beast of the sea is the actual beast that receives the head wound and it is not the beast itself but one of its heads. His logic, in my opinion, is greatly skewed and negligent in this regard. He should identify a proper beast, he should be knowledgeable that one of "its" heads receives the wound and not the beast itself. He should identify what the beast is. Regardless, I find it difficult reading his material when it feels he has not done his home work on the most basic of things. You had said,
If you think the first 4 seals are already opened, when did the 4th open and why did it stop at the 4th? I do agree the trumpets do not proceed the seals. That is evident because scripture tells us that after the 6th seal we have the alter of God in heaven. We have the sealing of the 144k. We have the angels told not to hurt anything. Then his judgment starts and the angels start to sound. I take Chapter 7 as the same vision. It acts as an interlude between the 6th and 7th seal. To me, it shows what follows the 6th seal in one part. In another, it shows what must happen before the first Trumpet. It is a continuation of things in between. Cause and effect. Though many will disagree on this Pre trib forum, I take that chapter as showing the rapture and the promise that God will now answer the saints from the 5th seal and pronounce his coming judgment with his saints removed from the earth. This is why the 7th seal there is silence in heaven. The key has always been Rev 8:3-5 I have spoken of this in other places. Ezekiel, Moses/Aaron in Exodus 9, Ezekiel 10 and Numbers 16 all show the same type of event as God pronouncing judgement. This is what describes his wrath about to go out in the first Trumpet. I have not looked into the relevance of the angels of the churches also being the same that sound. I do not find the bowls to be part of the trumpet because the Trumpets, though devastating must "bind up the tares to be burned later". When we get to the bowls, God's wrath is filled. This, I take it, is the burning of the tares. Not literal fire, but fiery destruction.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 1, 2018 7:52:00 GMT -6
Bullinger observation, oh for sure, venge, I saw also that Bullinger makes several statements without scriptural backing, draws several assumptions. Still thought it an interesting finding of the song sung in Ch 12 and the one sung in ch 11, which brings me to a question to ask all and see if we all agree here: When Satan is casted out of Heaven, it is either A) to make room for the 1st Harvest, the Barley, the one every one is looking for: the infamous Rapture. or B) is casted out simultaneously and we pass him at the threshhold as he leaves, and the door closes for a time.. or C) Barley gets there, Satan then truly looses the Battle because Michael called in for Back Up and the Lord responded and hence Barley First fruits arrive at the scene and assist. the last one no real scriptural evidence. Nontheless, this event of satan finding himself on earth must have something to do with a major shift in the Heavenly Kingdom. I do believe satan can go where he pleases, in the spiritual realm because we know our battle is spiritual with him, and the Holy Spirit is our helper to overcome. When it says satan saw that he was thrown down to earth, is this the first time that he is on earth or is it that Michael won that battle over the Heavenlies and kicked him out of the ability to be in heaven? IF THAT IS THE CASE, then Satan must take on flesh, no? If you are out of the spiritual realm you put on flesh, so this explains the rise of a single, evil being. Is this true? Is this what people think is what 'casted down to earth' means? I ask back, why would Jesus wait to open the First Seal? and what would be the signal that the 1st Seal is open? If people call it the Anitchrist, that does not make sense with the timing of when the man of lawlessness is revealed, assuming the man of lawlessness is the Antichrist. No one was found worthy to open the book which has seals on the FRONT and the BACK until Jesus shows up. Is He sitting there waiting, or does He act right away? I ask, do you see John's vision of the book that was sealed front and back as John witnessing the Ascension of the Lamb into Heaven? That is what it seems to me because he sees the throne room and it is not until this sealed book does he see the Lamb show up.. anyways, the 4th Seal does not a great Trib maketh..we have had throughout the centuries, killing by sword (either a real weapon or false 'word' or teachings), famine (has been going on if meant physical literal here, or LACK of spiritual food if looking at spiritual literal), pestilence (a fatal epidemic disease literally, yes, bubonic plague, AIDS, measels. Spiritually bad or false doctrine spreading rampant and causing death to those who follow it, ie Islam), wild beasts of the earth (literal bears, sharks, snakes, mountain lions, or is it Spiritual "beasts" of systems of man that keep man away from needing wanting or desiring a Saviour) I equate the rider on the WHITE horse as the Holy Spirit to conquer and go conquering this battle. Each one of us who come to faith and have been annointed with the HS have the ability to overcome the rider on the RED horse, or if the Red rider is war, well we certainly have had that for centuries. Now if someone thinks the rider on the red horse is satan being releases or casted to earth, then that really messes with the timeframe, and then who is the antichrist on the whitehorse?. I think the point of the Seals is Jesus has been setting up His case for judgement. You have the white Holy Spirit and the Red unholy spirit, an antichrist spirit which John speaks of in his epistles, the one already at work. Back to the Sign in September 2017..we have some hindsight now. Many thought the Sign and the birth of Jupiter meant Rapture right then or close to it. But we have this timeclock stuck in there a few verses away. I have always wondered about the term "days" in that could it be Years? According to my bible version, there is a timeline. 2017 minus 1260 years is 757. Then I see on my timeline that Jews returned to Jerusalem in 638, which is roughly 119 (120 years prior) but muslims have taken over it (Dome of Rock and mosque gets built in this era) and we have just comeout of the Bizantine period where Christianity is officially declared by Constantine. Holy Spirit continues to go about, yet we have war and pestilence and things like the Ottoman rule against the jews, and the rise of muslimhood while Christianity is on the rise... the timing for the Sign is because it makes sense with the timing that we see of modern day Israel, muslims, and the US involvement in Jerusalem. The ability to see the sign because many will have a computer program to see it during the day, we have NASA that has God's clock in full display digitally so we can look for these things. The Sign could not have come even in the 80's...all the other convergences that people have shown us, the nation of the United States, which proclaimed God at its founding, now having a presence in Jerusalem. The rise of the muslim religion, the war of ISIS going on, (and the US moving its embassey to Jerusalem), the Sign shows up to remind us to check in with the Book of Revelation...the time rather "season" is upon us. Look at this verse in Ch 12 14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.the word times here is defined as season... kairon, which means fitting season, season, opportunity, occasion, time. Why did John switch his nouns here from days to seasons? Is that to say the the dyas mentioned in verse 6 are not literal days, but really mean an appointed time that is God's and we will never know the exact timing? Just food for thought... |
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Post by venge on Jul 1, 2018 12:14:16 GMT -6
Bullinger observation, oh for sure, venge , I saw also that Bullinger makes several statements without scriptural backing, draws several assumptions. Still thought it an interesting finding of the song sung in Ch 12 and the one sung in ch 11, which brings me to a question to ask all and see if we all agree here: When Satan is casted out of Heaven, it is either A) to make room for the 1st Harvest, the Barley, the one every one is looking for: the infamous Rapture. or B) is casted out simultaneously and we pass him at the threshhold as he leaves, and the door closes for a time.. or C) Barley gets there, Satan then truly looses the Battle because Michael called in for Back Up and the Lord responded and hence Barley First fruits arrive at the scene and assist. the last one no real scriptural evidence. Nontheless, this event of satan finding himself on earth must have something to do with a major shift in the Heavenly Kingdom. I do believe satan can go where he pleases, in the spiritual realm because we know our battle is spiritual with him, and the Holy Spirit is our helper to overcome. When it says satan saw that he was thrown down to earth, is this the first time that he is on earth or is it that Michael won that battle over the Heavenlies and kicked him out of the ability to be in heaven? IF THAT IS THE CASE, then Satan must take on flesh, no? If you are out of the spiritual realm you put on flesh, so this explains the rise of a single, evil being. Is this true? Is this what people think is what 'casted down to earth' means? I ask back, why would Jesus wait to open the First Seal? and what would be the signal that the 1st Seal is open? If people call it the Anitchrist, that does not make sense with the timing of when the man of lawlessness is revealed, assuming the man of lawlessness is the Antichrist. No one was found worthy to open the book which has seals on the FRONT and the BACK until Jesus shows up. Is He sitting there waiting, or does He act right away? I ask, do you see John's vision of the book that was sealed front and back as John witnessing the Ascension of the Lamb into Heaven? That is what it seems to me because he sees the throne room and it is not until this sealed book does he see the Lamb show up.. anyways, the 4th Seal does not a great Trib maketh..we have had throughout the centuries, killing by sword (either a real weapon or false 'word' or teachings), famine (has been going on if meant physical literal here, or LACK of spiritual food if looking at spiritual literal), pestilence (a fatal epidemic disease literally, yes, bubonic plague, AIDS, measels. Spiritually bad or false doctrine spreading rampant and causing death to those who follow it, ie Islam), wild beasts of the earth (literal bears, sharks, snakes, mountain lions, or is it Spiritual "beasts" of systems of man that keep man away from needing wanting or desiring a Saviour) I equate the rider on the WHITE horse as the Holy Spirit to conquer and go conquering this battle. Each one of us who come to faith and have been annointed with the HS have the ability to overcome the rider on the RED horse, or if the Red rider is war, well we certainly have had that for centuries. Now if someone thinks the rider on the red horse is satan being releases or casted to earth, then that really messes with the timeframe, and then who is the antichrist on the whitehorse?. I think the point of the Seals is Jesus has been setting up His case for judgement. You have the white Holy Spirit and the Red unholy spirit, an antichrist spirit which John speaks of in his epistles, the one already at work. Back to the Sign in September 2017..we have some hindsight now. Many thought the Sign and the birth of Jupiter meant Rapture right then or close to it. But we have this timeclock stuck in there a few verses away. I have always wondered about the term "days" in that could it be Years? According to my bible version, there is a timeline. 2017 minus 1260 years is 757. Then I see on my timeline that Jews returned to Jerusalem in 638, which is roughly 119 (120 years prior) but muslims have taken over it (Dome of Rock and mosque gets built in this era) and we have just comeout of the Bizantine period where Christianity is officially declared by Constantine. Holy Spirit continues to go about, yet we have war and pestilence and things like the Ottoman rule against the jews, and the rise of muslimhood while Christianity is on the rise... the timing for the Sign is because it makes sense with the timing that we see of modern day Israel, muslims, and the US involvement in Jerusalem. The ability to see the sign because many will have a computer program to see it during the day, we have NASA that has God's clock in full display digitally so we can look for these things. The Sign could not have come even in the 80's...all the other convergences that people have shown us, the nation of the United States, which proclaimed God at its founding, now having a presence in Jerusalem. The rise of the muslim religion, the war of ISIS going on, (and the US moving its embassey to Jerusalem), the Sign shows up to remind us to check in with the Book of Revelation...the time rather "season" is upon us. Look at this verse in Ch 12 14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.the word times here is defined as season... kairon, which means fitting season, season, opportunity, occasion, time. Why did John switch his nouns here from days to seasons? Is that to say the the dyas mentioned in verse 6 are not literal days, but really mean an appointed time that is God's and we will never know the exact timing? Just food for thought... Hmm, a lot to think about....Ok, first I will answer this following question: If I had to pick one of these, I would pick A). But, I think there is more to it then just to make room. As I had stated earlier, Christ now takes full power and authority. He will clean out Heaven first. Then he will clean out the earth. Once all is clean, he will give it all back to God the father. You had stated "Nontheless, this event of satan finding himself on earth must have something to do with a major shift in the Heavenly Kingdom." We can learn from Jude 1:6 wher he says, Obviously, the 1/3rd angels cast out with Satan in Revelation along with the 4 "bound" in the river Euphrates are those that kept not their first estate. You then asked: Question 1: is this the first time that he is on earth or is it that Michael won that battle?My Response: It is not the first time he is on earth because in Job 1:7 we see the following answered: I don't think Michael "wins" the battle. It has always been that believers win the spiritual battle over evil, not the angels. Michael, imo, fights against Satan with God's permission. God has the absolute authority to bar Satan, but Christ receiving power and authority from God is the one to bar Satan from Heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 says, He must put down all rule and authority and power. For he must reign till all enemies are under his feet, the last enemy is death. Satan is not the last enemy but death is. Jesus must remove all evil from the earth including Heaven. How can he receive us to Heaven if the Heavenly angels can be tempted by Satan? He will remove Satan and then cleanse the earth. The last enemy is death after he reigns on earth for 1k years (Rev 20) and in Rev 20:14, we see death and hell cast into the lake of fire finishing it. 2. Question: I ask, do you see John's vision of the book that was sealed front and back as John witnessing the Ascension of the Lamb into Heaven?
My Response: Yes. My current understanding of John's vision is watching Jesus ascend. Knowing that, I would not think that Christ immediately opened the 1st seal which then would be the catalyst to Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD. Does he wait? I don't know. God is said to be patient, longsuffering. He doesn't look at time as we do. We look at the last (almost) 2k years as an eternity and to God, it is a blink of an eye. So does he wait? He sure can, its a blink of an eye to him. He has waited at least 6 thousand years already. In Matthew 24:3, the people ask Jesus a simple question. Three questions are asked. All three describe the end of the age. We know the rapture must proceed it and that hasn't happened. We know the Antichrist must come first and that hasn't happened. Jesus describes these things happening in the future beyond 70 AD when he returns. First he says, Well, that has been happening since...well...forever right? But then he answers their question: He says, The birth pangs described here are then future to Christ's death and future to his 2nd coming. These things have always happened. But Jesus is pointing them to a specific time he had called a time of sorrows prior to the Great tribulation in verse 21. Interestingly, Rev 6 also shows with the seals, War (Nation vs Nation, Kingdom vs Kingdom), Famine + Pestilence, and death as the effect of the 3 causes. We can even look at the 6th seal and see it say " lo, there was a great earthquake". Christ is specific in Matthew 24 that the birth pangs precede the Great tribulation. The Great tribulation does not last 7 years because its time is "shortened for the elects sake". Leaving the time before the AoD is setup as a time of sorrow. If we look to Daniel 12:1, we see the Great Tribulation identified. But if that is the Great tribulation, what is the time of sorrow that precedes it? Notice the time of sorrow in Daniel 11:29 and following it. The appointed time is the future time allowed by the restrainer. In vs 31: Still following verse 35 we see it is the time Christ was talking about: This is not the Great tribulation, the time of the end...but the time of sorrows preceding it. And from the time the Antichrist reigns all the way to verse 45, he conquers (1st seal), there is war (2nd seal), death (4th seal), there are martyrs (5th seal). Lastly, you had said: I love you Barbie and I will say this because I have love for brothers/sisters. I think that is dangerous. Christ said , But he does not come to conquer. Christ is also said in Rev 19:15, In Hebrews 4:12 Rev 1:16 He is never shown carrying a bow. The NIV interprets the 1st seal as: A horse always symbolized a battle. The horse is white denoting purity, holiness. He has a crown of authority. But, he rides out as a conquer bent on conquest. Now, some of you will disagree, but my understanding is that this is the false prophet. He comes in as the messiah. As spiritual, peaceful, kindness. But he becomes bent on conquest. The wolf in sheep's clothing. Christ is never identified as this, even with his wrath nor is the Holy Spirit. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 1, 2018 14:58:10 GMT -6
Will work at remaining open about the horse being what you described, yet then what you say of the white horse rider, how does that fit in with the timing of the stuff we read in Chapter 11, Ch 13? That is my over all point. Like you I need scriptures to or something to tie in the first Seal to what its TRUE meaning is, not just assumptions. I get lost a bit when you go into Daniel as I have not aligned them to Revelation fully. Yes I have read Daniel several times now to promote it to memory, but still, the puzzle is a big one. It is my fault for getting this thread off topic a bit because I ask and make statements then they get addressed and then we are down a trail.. The Sign and its timing then, points us to Revelation, which points us to the Door so to speak, it confirms that the birth pangs we see are indeed not false labor, but the real deal... If the Sign is NOT the sign, then what else do we have to show us the first Seal being opened? or that earthquakes, which have been going on ad infinitum sorry bad spelling, and wars that have been going on etc...we have been seeing all these things...so where is the 1st Seal? or has it not happened yet? how will we know? You made a few statements like this:And from the time the Antichrist reigns all the way to verse 45, he conquers (1st seal), there is war (2nd seal), death (4th seal), there are martyrs (5th seal). So you are putting the antichrist showing up before the barley harvest rapture? I see within Revelation that the main rapture event is described. Where it fits in relation to the seals and trumpets I will have to look back at my notes. Many put the AoD at the middle of the 7 year, and say that there is a pre-trib rapture, so this 1st seal is before the 7 years? But I thought the AC was not revealed until the 3 1/2 years into the trib...see my confusion? I do know you have stated that you see church believers around during part of this tribulation that precedes the End, and to not just assume we are not to experience something..total paraphrasing so my apologies if I am stating your position incorrectly. One thing I looked back here venge and I dont think you answered the question about the Sign really being the sign after people brought in scripture about the heavenly bodies being for signs and seasons etc... You said it was a sign that no one would really see, so how could it have been a true sign...yes, because the sun blocked it, but where is your stance on the matter when I say things like modern technology allowed us to see it? |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 1, 2018 15:11:49 GMT -6
I think it is save to say that the barley harvest is before the 7th seal but not before the ending of the 6th seal. Something like:
Chapter 6, 1st seal and the things that follow
Chapter 6, 2nd seal and the things that follow
Chapter 6, 3rd seal and the things that follow
Chapter 6, 4th seal and the things that follow
Chapter 6, 5th seal and the things that follow
Chapter 6, 6th seal and the things that follow and this includes the barley harvest of Chapter 7
Chapter 8, 7th seal and the things that follow
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Post by venge on Jul 1, 2018 19:02:01 GMT -6
Barbie,
I will try to answer the other questions later. One thing though, what bora said I agree with.
I view it seal 1 thru 6. Then rapture then 7th seal then Trumpets etc....
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 1, 2018 19:28:16 GMT -6
so quickly back, we will experience the antichrist, false prophet et all if the seals do not open until the commencement of the end time pangs...is this how i am understanding your timeline?
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Post by boraddict on Jul 1, 2018 21:06:25 GMT -6
so quickly back, we will experience the antichrist, false prophet et all if the seals do not open until the commencement of the end time pangs...is this how i am understanding your timeline? The 7th seal introduces the calm followed by a preparation and then a destruction; whereas, the 6th seal shows a destruction followed by the sealing of the 144,000 and the marriage. Thus, the barley harvest must occur in the 6th seal or before in order for the sealing and marriage to take place in the 6th seal. Something like this: Chapter 6, 1st seal and the things that follow. this must be Christ leading the Christians at the time of the Great Sign Chapter 6, 2nd seal and the things that follow, this must be the rise of the beast in Chapter 13 Chapter 6, 3rd seal and the things that follow and this includes the barley harvest. Chapter 6, 4th seal and the things that follow and this must be the destruction of Babylon (Chapter 17) Chapter 6, 5th seal and the things that follow and this includes the aftermath of the destruction of Babylon (Chapter 18) Chapter 6, 6th seal and the things that follow and this includes the sealing, marriage (Chapters 7 & 19), and the destruction of the beast (Chapter 19). This is the midpoint. Chapter 8, 7th seal and the things that follow including the calm and a preparation (Chapter 15), and the end time destruction (Chapter 16) This is tough to lay out; however, it is much closer than my previous list in this thread. EDIT: It shows that the bowls and trumpets take place in the second 3.5 year period; after the destruction of the beast in Chapter 19. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 1, 2018 21:10:02 GMT -6
so where do the trumpets and bowls fit into the seals, boraddict ? EDITTING MYSELF 2 minutes later: STOP THE PRESSES !!! I see it now what you are saying. The Seals say a general statement, and the trumpets and or bowls fulfill the seals... is this what you and venge are saying? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 1, 2018 21:17:30 GMT -6
There is going to be this false guy, then there is going to be peace taken away, the barley and the wheat come at a price (Jesus' work on the Cross?) but the annointed wont be hurt and the wine will also not be 'hurt'because we see that there are those that wash their robes from the blood of the winepress and are made white, famine and pestilence etc will abound, beasts run rampant, then the next 3 Seals open up more detail?
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Post by boraddict on Jul 2, 2018 1:33:17 GMT -6
There is going to be this false guy, then there is going to be peace taken away, the barley and the wheat come at a price (Jesus' work on the Cross?) but the annointed wont be hurt and the wine will also not be 'hurt'because we see that there are those that wash their robes from the blood of the winepress and are made white, famine and pestilence etc will abound, beasts run rampant, then the next 3 Seals open up more detail? Hi Barb, there are multiple things going on in Chapter 6 such as the seals being 1,000 year periods of time and so forth. However, the list that I am referring to shows the seals as points dividing the events of the seven years of tribulation. I do not know what the seals represent in this context. Your list above applies as follows: Chapter 6, 1st seal and the things that follow. this must be Christ leading the Christians at the time of the Great Sign Chapter 6, 2nd seal and the things that follow, this must be the rise of the beast in Chapter 13. This is the "false guy, then there is going to be peace taken away."Chapter 6, 3rd seal (Verse 6:5-6) and the things that follow and this includes the barley harvest. This is "the barley and the wheat come at a price." The "annointed wont be hurt and the wine will also not be 'hurt'."Chapter 6, 4th seal and the things that follow and this must be the destruction of Babylon (Chapter 17). The famine and pestilence etc will abound, beasts run rampant, then the next 3 Seals open up more detail.Chapter 6, 5th seal and the things that follow and this includes the aftermath of the destruction of Babylon (Chapter 18) Chapter 6, 6th seal and the things that follow and this includes the sealing, marriage (Chapters 7 & 19), and the destruction of the beast (Chapter 19). This is the midpoint. Chapter 8, 7th seal and the things that follow including the calm and a preparation (Chapter 15), and the end time destruction (Chapter 16). "There are those that wash their robes from the blood of the winepress (Verse 14:20) and are made white."
In the above list, the wine of Verse 6:6 pertains to those of the covenant (blood of Christ); whereas, the wine of Verse 14:20 is the blood of the wicked. The link is the wine that represents the blood; however, they are two different applications of blood in the two different seals. There is also the wine that references the blood in Verse 16:19, that Babylon who fell received her due of Lord Jesus' righteous indignation. I do not know why that tidbit was included in that verse. The white robes apply in the 5th seal; however, it pertains to a different list in which the saints at the time following Lord Jesus' ministry were killed for their testimony. That same condition will exist again and is referenced in Verse 13:7 with the rise of the beast (2nd seal) and Verse 18:20 that pertains to the destruction of Babylon (4th seal). Additionally, white robes are given at the marriage (Verse 19:8) and these are people that have not died (6th seal), and I believe Verse 7:9 that references white robes on living people, is a linking marriage verse and it is also in the 6th seal. That is my best guess. However, the seals also represent good guys such as 1) Enoch, 2) Noah, 3) Moses, 4) Elijah, 5) John, 6) The 144,000, and 7) Michael. I do not know all the layers in Chapter 6 but there a many. My objective is the application of the seals to the seven years of Tribulation. |
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Post by venge on Jul 2, 2018 9:53:46 GMT -6
There is going to be this false guy, then there is going to be peace taken away, the barley and the wheat come at a price (Jesus' work on the Cross?) but the annointed wont be hurt and the wine will also not be 'hurt'because we see that there are those that wash their robes from the blood of the winepress and are made white, famine and pestilence etc will abound, beasts run rampant, then the next 3 Seals open up more detail? Hi Barb, there are multiple things going on in Chapter 6 such as the seals being 1,000 year periods of time and so forth. However, the list that I am referring to shows the seals as points dividing the events of the seven years of tribulation. I do not know what the seals represent in this context. Your list above applies as follows: Chapter 6, 1st seal and the things that follow. this must be Christ leading the Christians at the time of the Great Sign Chapter 6, 2nd seal and the things that follow, this must be the rise of the beast in Chapter 13. This is the "false guy, then there is going to be peace taken away."Chapter 6, 3rd seal (Verse 6:5-6) and the things that follow and this includes the barley harvest. This is "the barley and the wheat come at a price." The "annointed wont be hurt and the wine will also not be 'hurt'."Chapter 6, 4th seal and the things that follow and this must be the destruction of Babylon (Chapter 17). The famine and pestilence etc will abound, beasts run rampant, then the next 3 Seals open up more detail.Chapter 6, 5th seal and the things that follow and this includes the aftermath of the destruction of Babylon (Chapter 18) Chapter 6, 6th seal and the things that follow and this includes the sealing, marriage (Chapters 7 & 19), and the destruction of the beast (Chapter 19). This is the midpoint. Chapter 8, 7th seal and the things that follow including the calm and a preparation (Chapter 15), and the end time destruction (Chapter 16). "There are those that wash their robes from the blood of the winepress (Verse 14:20) and are made white."
In the above list, the wine of Verse 6:6 pertains to those of the covenant (blood of Christ); whereas, the wine of Verse 14:20 is the blood of the wicked. The link is the wine that represents the blood; however, they are two different applications of blood in the two different seals. There is also the wine that references the blood in Verse 16:19, that Babylon who fell received her due of Lord Jesus' righteous indignation. I do not know why that tidbit was included in that verse. The white robes apply in the 5th seal; however, it pertains to a different list in which the saints at the time following Lord Jesus' ministry were killed for their testimony. That same condition will exist again and is referenced in Verse 13:7 with the rise of the beast (2nd seal) and Verse 18:20 that pertains to the destruction of Babylon (4th seal). Additionally, white robes are given at the marriage (Verse 19:8) and these are people that have not died (6th seal), and I believe Verse 7:9 that references white robes on living people, is a linking marriage verse and it is also in the 6th seal. That is my best guess. However, the seals also represent good guys such as 1) Enoch, 2) Noah, 3) Moses, 4) Elijah, 5) John, 6) The 144,000, and 7) Michael. I do not know all the layers in Chapter 6 but there a many. My objective is the application of the seals to the seven years of Tribulation. The seals being 1 thousand year time periods? What? That is not even biblical bora. We cannot lead with our own imagination and must look to the word for answers, not adding or removing. We can’t assume, or rationalize scripture. It must come from scripture otherwise we can’t use it. |
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Post by mike on Jul 2, 2018 11:36:50 GMT -6
venge Maybe boraddict didnt write it as inteded I believe and have read elsewhere that the seals have been opened or as barbiosheepgirl says we've had famine, wars etc for years and years and years (of course I'm direct quoting that). SO maybe just a better explanation of the "so forth" wouldve helped
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