|
|
Post by witness1 on Jun 25, 2018 15:18:18 GMT -6
One thing I continue to ponder is that my "pre-Tribulation" view may be askew. Many here like me thought God was giving the as the last minute warning, sign and rapture at once? Wrong! What if the models and theories we have from a multitude of scholars & in our heads aren't exactly correct? What if its a compilation of those theories? Pre, Mid, Post (i'm sure there are other variants)...Daniels 70th week. Was it fulfilled, is it yet to occur? Is it 7 years? Is it 3.5 yrs? so on and so on.... Remember this is a GREAT SIGN, not just any sign. Like we all see STOP signs everywhere all over the place. But this one, this one is unique, its GREAT! Not everyone can see this sign either. We see street signs, stop signs and so on, they are common to all, but those who were looking for or watching for this sign, knew about or got to see it. What makes it a great sign though? For one, its the only time it happened the way it did EVER! I know the sign was nearly identical "in the beginning" but with one different player (planet) involved. So a viewpoint from earth (with naked eye/telescope) the signs are identical, yet in reality they are not the same exact sign. So what did the first sign signify? Some say creation, or at least creation of man...hmmmm.... Some of you are adept at using Stellarium, I am inept. I would leave things like figuring out what the stars and planets mean/signify to be better explained by our friends and brothers paulwatchmandawson or gkp . I know i've watched a video or two on YouTube about this topic but I cant recall where perhaps Paul has one or knows of a good or will even do one for us  ...If Saturn (Satan) signified the time of creation, the serpent, the deception, the fall of man. Jupiter is the King planet signifying the return of the King, perhaps the Great Sign tells us the King is about to arrive, the redemption of man is at hand or the kingdom is coming. OK Mike what are you saying that we all havent really figured out yet? Where are we in the history of the world and how does it line up our theologies? God has been showing us (mankind) things in the stars for at least 6000 years. But this one Great Sign He made sure He told us about it in the Word and told us it was GREAT. I hope at least one of you follows my line of thinking...this is all in my head and i'm probably blowing it trying to get it from my (fat) head to the screen If we can just cast aside our own theories for a moment and be open minded to the possibilities. We continue to see other signs developing further reinforcing the marker God gave us Sept 23-24, 2017. Is it at all possible that the great sign marked the beginning of the 7 years? Oh but Mike we would have tribulation on the earth. We dont? Earthquakes, volcanic activity, widespread flooding, unparalleled hurricanes, political upheaval, wars, rumors of wars, aliens, CERN and on and on and on... Oh but Mike then we would not have pre-trib rapture because Gods wrath starts at the beginning of the tribulation. Does it? But Mike the anti-christ would be ready to appear and create false peace, Um ok? I'm likely wrong on this and the scholars that have given us our models...one of them is right, but I am trying to keep my eyes open and hopefully keeping my heart ready for Him. I think this is the line of thinking to follow. If (when) we get past July 7 or whatever and then past the FoT this year, it's time for everyone to think outside of the box! I personally am pondering the possibility of a dual fulfillment of the 70th week. In the first 70th week, a) the temple was consecrated (Jesus' baptism), b) the temple was in the process of being built for 3.5 years- Jesus' ministry, c) the sacrifice and offering (Jesus) was cut off in the middle of the week, and then d) 3.5 years ensued where Jesus' followers spread the gospel. Israel rejected the gospel the first time with the stoning of Stephan, so the 70th week was not fulfilled. Everlasting righteousness did not come in (Daniel 9:24). In the second 70th week, following the pattern above, I think a) the temple (us) may have been consecrated on Sept 23rd. I think b) the temple (the church- the body of Christ) may be built for 3.5 years, c) our living sacrifice and offering will be removed from earth in the rapture, and then d) 3.5 years will ensue where the gospel is spread (this is the events of Revelation). Israel will accept the gospel this time. 1) The events of the book of revelation fit in a little over 3.5 years: after the 2 witnesses ascend at day 1263.5, there is no one left on earth who worships Jesus other than the 144,000. The bowls of wrath then come down in a short period of time as God avenges the blood of the martyrs. We are in heaven before the seals are opened, so there is a "pre-trib" rapture. 2) The eclipse still fits... seven years marked the span of the second 70th week. 3) When you look back in Nehemiah and Ezra, it's interesting to me that the temple took 3-4 years to finish once the interruptions to it's rebuilding were gone. I feel like that can't be coincidence. The temple was finished in the 6th month (Ezra 6:15), but it doesn't give the month of its beginning. If it began at the beginning of the year, the total time was 3.5 years. Fascinating! 4) Isaac Newton's theory of the double fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 will still hold. There is some evidence that the decree to restore and rebuild the Old Jewish Quarter actually took place in September of 1968. Then 7 weeks (49 years) from Sept 1968 would end in Sept 2017. "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." Any chance that we, as the body of Christ, are this anointed one who came 49 years after the decree in Sept 1968? The church has grown by leaps and bounds lately. If so, it's time to get to work! israelsdocuments.blogspot.com/2013/06/ |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 25, 2018 16:50:55 GMT -6
@witness! said:
AMEN
then said:
AMEN
|
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Jun 26, 2018 11:14:14 GMT -6
21 Trillion in Debt.
If you started a company at the time of Christ (3 BC - 27 AD), and that company lost 1 million dollars per day until this very day, the loss would not equal 1 trillion dollars.
If you started a company at the time of Christ and that company lost 21 million dollars per day until this very day, the loss would not equal 21 trillion dollars.
I heard on the radio that some forecast an economic downturn in 2019-2020.
Perhaps the great sign was a warning marker for the coming economic downturn. You know "Christ coming into Egypt riding upon swift clouds." I was told this in 04; yet I think the warning was the great sign and the event is the next economic downturn.
From 04 to 07 is three years. If that type is correct then 18 to 21 is three years. Thus, we are looking to 2021 for the rapture.
|
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jun 26, 2018 15:05:07 GMT -6
21 Trillion in Debt. If you started a company at the time of Christ (3 BC - 27 AD), and that company lost 1 million dollars per day until this very day, the loss would not equal 1 trillion dollars. If you started a company at the time of Christ and that company lost 21 million dollars per day until this very day, the loss would not equal 21 trillion dollars. I heard on the radio that some forecast an economic downturn in 2019-2020. Perhaps the great sign was a warning marker for the coming economic downturn. You know "Christ coming into Egypt riding upon swift clouds." I was told this in 04; yet I think the warning was the great sign and the event is the next economic downturn. From 04 to 07 is three years. If that type is correct then 18 to 21 is three years. Thus, we are looking to 2021 for the rapture. Has the Lord revealed to boraddict what He is about to do? The BoR, Book of Revelation Addict. The seven ugly cows are seven years. "There will come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt, but after them there will arise seven years of famine, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt. The famine will consume the land, and the plenty will be unknown in the land by reason of the famine that will follow, for it will be very severe. I doubt it at this time. Because i think we will be marrying and giving in marriage and planting and building and buying and selling condominiums until the tribulation comes and takes us all away. Some to where the eagles have gathered, some to where He has prepared a place for. Just like in the days of Noah, like in the days of Lot. If it were not true, would He have told us? Don't worry boraddict, i'm just fooling around. |
|
|
|
Post by davewatchman on Jun 26, 2018 18:28:30 GMT -6
One thing I continue to ponder is that my "pre-Tribulation" view may be askew. Many here like me thought God was giving the as the last minute warning, sign and rapture at once? Wrong! What if the models and theories we have from a multitude of scholars & in our heads aren't exactly correct? What if its a compilation of those theories? Pre, Mid, Post (i'm sure there are other variants)...Daniels 70th week. Was it fulfilled, is it yet to occur? Is it 7 years? Is it 3.5 yrs? so on and so on.... Remember this is a GREAT SIGN, not just any sign. Like we all see STOP signs everywhere all over the place. But this one, this one is unique, its GREAT! Not everyone can see this sign either. We see street signs, stop signs and so on, they are common to all, but those who were looking for or watching for this sign, knew about or got to see it. What makes it a great sign though? For one, its the only time it happened the way it did EVER! I know the sign was nearly identical "in the beginning" but with one different player (planet) involved. So a viewpoint from earth (with naked eye/telescope) the signs are identical, yet in reality they are not the same exact sign. So what did the first sign signify? Some say creation, or at least creation of man...hmmmm.... Some of you are adept at using Stellarium, I am inept. I would leave things like figuring out what the stars and planets mean/signify to be better explained by our friends and brothers paulwatchmandawson or gkp . I know i've watched a video or two on YouTube about this topic but I cant recall where perhaps Paul has one or knows of a good or will even do one for us ...If Saturn (Satan) signified the time of creation, the serpent, the deception, the fall of man. Jupiter is the King planet signifying the return of the King, perhaps the Great Sign tells us the King is about to arrive, the redemption of man is at hand or the kingdom is coming. OK Mike what are you saying that we all havent really figured out yet? Where are we in the history of the world and how does it line up our theologies? God has been showing us (mankind) things in the stars for at least 6000 years. But this one Great Sign He made sure He told us about it in the Word and told us it was GREAT. I hope at least one of you follows my line of thinking...this is all in my head and i'm probably blowing it trying to get it from my (fat) head to the screen If we can just cast aside our own theories for a moment and be open minded to the possibilities. We continue to see other signs developing further reinforcing the marker God gave us Sept 23-24, 2017. Is it at all possible that the great sign marked the beginning of the 7 years? Oh but Mike we would have tribulation on the earth. We dont? Earthquakes, volcanic activity, widespread flooding, unparalleled hurricanes, political upheaval, wars, rumors of wars, aliens, CERN and on and on and on... Oh but Mike then we would not have pre-trib rapture because Gods wrath starts at the beginning of the tribulation. Does it? But Mike the anti-christ would be ready to appear and create false peace, Um ok? I'm likely wrong on this and the scholars that have given us our models...one of them is right, but I am trying to keep my eyes open and hopefully keeping my heart ready for Him. I think this is the line of thinking to follow. If (when) we get past July 7 or whatever and then past the FoT this year, it's time for everyone to think outside of the box! I personally am pondering the possibility of a dual fulfillment of the 70th week. In the first 70th week, a) the temple was consecrated (Jesus' baptism), b) the temple was in the process of being built for 3.5 years- Jesus' ministry, c) the sacrifice and offering (Jesus) was cut off in the middle of the week, and then d) 3.5 years ensued where Jesus' followers spread the gospel. Israel rejected the gospel the first time with the stoning of Stephan, so the 70th week was not fulfilled. Everlasting righteousness did not come in (Daniel 9:24). In the second 70th week, following the pattern above, I think a) the temple (us) may have been consecrated on Sept 23rd. I think b) the temple (the church- the body of Christ) may be built for 3.5 years, c) our living sacrifice and offering will be removed from earth in the rapture, and then d) 3.5 years will ensue where the gospel is spread (this is the events of Revelation). Israel will accept the gospel this time. 1) The events of the book of revelation fit in a little over 3.5 years: after the 2 witnesses ascend at day 1263.5, there is no one left on earth who worships Jesus other than the 144,000. The bowls of wrath then come down in a short period of time as God avenges the blood of the martyrs. We are in heaven before the seals are opened, so there is a "pre-trib" rapture. 2) The eclipse still fits... seven years marked the span of the second 70th week. 3) When you look back in Nehemiah and Ezra, it's interesting to me that the temple took 3-4 years to finish once the interruptions to it's rebuilding were gone. I feel like that can't be coincidence. The temple was finished in the 6th month (Ezra 6:15), but it doesn't give the month of its beginning. If it began at the beginning of the year, the total time was 3.5 years. Fascinating! 4) Isaac Newton's theory of the double fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 will still hold. There is some evidence that the decree to restore and rebuild the Old Jewish Quarter actually took place in September of 1968. Then 7 weeks (49 years) from Sept 1968 would end in Sept 2017. "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." Any chance that we, as the body of Christ, are this anointed one who came 49 years after the decree in Sept 1968? The church has grown by leaps and bounds lately. If so, it's time to get to work! israelsdocuments.blogspot.com/2013/06/I like your note here witness. And i like mike's too. But i especially like yours and boraddict's. Not because i agree with you and boraddict, but i like your style. Because i'm like going around saying the end is here, but you guys are saying we maybe have more time, maybe 2021 or more. And that's not a bad thought. That's what i need, like a pressure relief valve or an escape clause. And i won't start with any of my out of the box thoughts on Daniel Nine and "dual" prophecies, or how the events of Revelation fit into 1480.5 years. But that link had me discombobulated for about 15 minutes. One time i spent all day trying to google for the minutes of the Knesset, trying to find when that decree was made. I found some minutes, but not the right ones. Anyway, the note from your link said it was 1968. That won't compute with Suleiman's decree, so Houston we have a problem. And then the whole PDF is in Hebrew. And i can't use google translator because they scanned it as an image file so i can't select the text. And i don't have any of that fancy dancy ocular reading software. And i'm going right out of my out of my head. My neurotransmitters are getting sore. 1968 seemed to be contradictory to the information from the web site of the "company" where it claims, in at least three places, that: "The Company was established in the year 1969 following the liberation of Jerusalem", and in another place it specifically mentions: "January 1969". And we're speeding towards a "darkened" sun in January 2019. But be all that as it may, i still think it's a good and legitimate find. Because in all that backwards writing, i can make out : (8.9.68) AND ; (14.7.68). From the English web site they mention: In July 1968 the government decided to create the company, like your PDF confirms. But can it be known therefore and understood that until the company is actually created, and established as they said it was in January 1969, the actual command or order to begin the work would start the clock ticking. Is it not one thing to make a command to set up a "company", and then another thing for that company to give the actual order to begin the work to restore and rebuild? Am i dying here, somebody help me. The Company for the Reconstruction and Development of the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem Ltd. Company Profile: www.rova-yehudi.org.il/company-profile/#Areas of activity: www.rova-yehudi.org.il/areas-of-activity-2/I don't know if your google is the same as my google, like do we get the same results or have i corrupted mine with too many tracking cookies. But try just typing into google: 1535 decree . For me, the first hit is a Wiki article on the Walls of Jerusalem. These are the walls still standing today from the Suleiman decree to rebuild in 1535.  Remarkable. "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Anointed One, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troubled times. Seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. And 62 weeks times 7 = 434 years. 1535 + 434 = 1969. 1969 + seven "sevens" = 2018. Remarkable. Whatever happens, we don't have too much more longer to find out. |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Jun 27, 2018 13:17:56 GMT -6
I get what you mean about a pressure relief valve. Whether I'm right or wrong, I decided I have to live like we have time left. There is too much that I wasn't doing because we were "out of time". And that was foolish and made me miserable. Funny how much pressure that created! I think you have some really valid points about the dates. I hadn't calculated from 1535 but you're right... that's pretty important. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree... it will be interesting to see what happens! Obviously I have no idea whether my "dual 70 week theory" is correct or not, but I'm going to dig into it more if we're still here in 2019. But even if the dates I gave in #4 above don't work out, #1-3 above still make sense in my mind. Why did God give the eclipses in 2017 and 2024, marking a 7 year timeframe? Is it coincidence that the second temple took (approximately) 3.5 years to complete (after the interruptions stopped) and Jesus' ministry was 3.5 years? Why are the witnesses dead for exactly 3.5 days? Why does it say that "no one gives up worshiping idols" at the second trumpet, which is 3.5 years from the beginning of the Great Tribulation? All very curious in my mind! I'm going to live like we have time left and be presently surprised if I see you all in heaven sooner than I expect |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Jun 28, 2018 12:58:30 GMT -6
One thing I have been thinking a lot about, something we talked about awhile ago, is the idea that the Lord will unite His church before He comes for us. That all the watchmen will be in agreement, and that our post-trib/Covenant brothers and sisters will see eye-to-eye with us as well. I have a hard time thinking any of us are going to be in heaven saying, "I TOLD YOU SO!" One potential reason for the Great Sign is to tell us that Revelation 12 is happening during this time. Many people who don't believe in a pre-trib rapture believe Rev 12 is about the birth of Jesus and that Satan was cast out of heaven a long time ago- that it is all describing past events. Well, we've made a lot of hype about the Great Sign, saying that it happened in September and therefore the rapture is coming soon. Many people mocked this idea. Well... what if the rest of Rev 12 were to play out before we go? What if we see the sign of the dragon, whatever it is? What if we see fallen angels/aliens come down to earth? Then we would be able to say, "look guys... you can't deny this any longer. Rev 12 is current. We will be caught up to heaven soon!" But at the same time, if we're around long enough to see all this go down, that means our current model isn't completely correct either. It means that somehow our thinking needs to mesh with the other side. Along the lines of seeing fallen angels come down... I've been reading a fascinating book lately which discusses Enoch's role in God's great story and what was happening on the earth in "the days of Noah" as described in Genesis 6. Enoch was sent to preach against the fallen angels who were marrying human women, and after he had finished his testimony, he was caught up to God. Well, if Enoch is a type of the church, I am wondering whether we also will have the opportunity/responsibility to preach against the actions of these fallen beings. Wouldn't that be wild?!? I think the purpose of the Great Sign was to tell us that Rev 12 is the key to unlocking the understanding of the end. It will be interesting to see how it plays out! Watch for the Lord this weekend, but also realize we could still have quite some time left to go. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Jun 28, 2018 14:03:22 GMT -6
I love it witness1! If I got a vote, that'd be mine |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Jun 28, 2018 14:52:36 GMT -6
Mine too. I feel like the church still has some work to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Jun 28, 2018 20:38:47 GMT -6
One thing is for sure and that is we are at the right time period.
We all know that the rapture is not 100 years from now, nor is it 50 or 25 years from now.
The evidence has been coming forth since the 1940s with first the Dead Sea Scrolls, and then Noah's Ark, the Red Sea Crossing, and numerous other proofs to draw people to Christ. Then we get the Great Sign and the 70 year celebration of Israel.
Thus, all the proof is there for any casual non theological person to see. It is clear.
Next and I mean hopefully next is "... as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children" (Isa. 66:8).
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 29, 2018 8:20:48 GMT -6
I went to the link by fitz to some manuscripts from EW Bullinger who studied the Biblical zodiac. His opinion was that the Sign was a going back in time, but for the advantage to John to understand the war in the heavens and the battle against Good and Evil. And he had some interesting verse references that the Woman is the Israel, she is considered, married, divorced and widowed. He referenced the multiple times where the enemy tried to destroy the man-child literally: Moses for one example. I dont have a lot of time here so I will continue this later, but there was another point he made. It is Michael the archangel in the war with satan. He equates the Rapture to happen in and about the casting of satan to earth. And his trowing the third of the stars as the angels he takes with him. It is the idea that Satan has access to heaven, but when he is cast out, he can no longer have access to heaven, and goes to make war with the rest of her children. He is calling this event of casting out satan as the 3rd Woe (which we know is after the 6th trumpet). He then goes on to make a case for 2Thes 2 our beloved revealing of the man of lawlessness verses.. He is saying that what restrains him is not the Holy Spirit, but the Abyss. He says the Thesalonians knew what Paul was talking about but we dont because we are not told. He sees the pronoun THAT which restrains is a neuter pronoun, and with Rev and the releasing out of the Abyss/casting down to earth are the same event. THis I want to put out word for word when I get time. But going back to the Woman. He says that the war in heaven occurs BEFORE the flight of the woman to the wilderness. The flight is consequent on the war and not the child being caught up. The other thing I want to add but have no time is your comment about this: Who are the First fruits? I ask... I want to talk about that just a tad but not start a whole new thread. It relates to the CH 12 in many ways... |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Jun 29, 2018 14:11:57 GMT -6
I went to the link by fitz to some manuscripts from EW Bullinger who studied the Biblical zodiac. His opinion was that the Sign was a going back in time, but for the advantage to John to understand the war in the heavens and the battle against Good and Evil. And he had some interesting verse references that the Woman is the Israel, she is considered, married, divorced and widowed. He referenced the multiple times where the enemy tried to destroy the man-child literally: Moses for one example. I dont have a lot of time here so I will continue this later, but there was another point he made. It is Michael the archangel in the war with satan. He equates the Rapture to happen in and about the casting of satan to earth. And his trowing the third of the stars as the angels he takes with him. It is the idea that Satan has access to heaven, but when he is cast out, he can no longer have access to heaven, and goes to make war with the rest of her children. He is calling this event of casting out satan as the 3rd Woe (which we know is after the 6th trumpet). He then goes on to make a case for 2Thes 2 our beloved revealing of the man of lawlessness verses.. He is saying that what restrains him is not the Holy Spirit, but the Abyss. He says the Thesalonians knew what Paul was talking about but we dont because we are not told. He sees the pronoun THAT which restrains is a neuter pronoun, and with Rev and the releasing out of the Abyss/casting down to earth are the same event. THis I want to put out word for word when I get time. But going back to the Woman. He says that the war in heaven occurs BEFORE the flight of the woman to the wilderness. The flight is consequent on the war and not the child being caught up. The other thing I want to add but have no time is your comment about this: Who are the First fruits? I ask... I want to talk about that just a tad but not start a whole new thread. It relates to the CH 12 in many ways... Barbie, If he thinks the casting of Satan to earth happens after the 6th Trumpet, and in doing so, Satan goes to make war with the inhabitants of the earth and the sea....how do we understand verse 10? The "Now has come" doesn't happen till Satan is cast out. As before his banishment, there was no: - salvation
- strength
- kingdom of God
- power of Christ
Are you, or is he saying that the there is none of the above prior to the 6th Trumpet since the birth of Christ?
In verse 12 below, we see Satan has only a short time which I personally believe is either Daniel's 70th week of 7 years or 3.5 years.
Following that statement, the women is attacked after the birth of Jesus but before his 2nd advent.
We see Satan already persecuting the women after his banishment but before she is protected by eagles wings. We learn the eagle's wings protect her for 3.5 years (the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week), therefore, Satan must be on the earth persecuting her during the first half of Daniel's 70th week.
How does someone rectify placing the 6th Trumpet during the first 3.5 years which is known as a "peace with many" when the Trumpets are also known as Judgements whether you are Pre-Trib, Mid Trib, Post Trib, Pre Wrath etc...
That would place 1 trumpet and 4 Bowls in the entire 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week if you follow a 7 year period and squish 7 seals, 6 Trumpets all within a tight time frame never minding the peace part....
Maybe it is me, but I have found understanding recognizing that when Christ receives the book, he takes the deed of Earth from God's hand. In Rev 5:12 we see it happen:
Christ receives power, strength, blessing to which I interpret as our blessed hope of salvation and he can now bring with him the kingdom of God now that he has all things.
If so, Satan would be removed from heaven on His command. When Christ inherits power and not Satan, Christ as ruler removes all wickedness to get ready his kingdom. That would include removing Satan from heaven where he could formally walk.
We are not told why there was war in heaven, but I would guess it to be John's interpretation of a dream given him. Was it spiritual war or literal war? We know Christ says we fight against spiritual things: principalities, powers..etc…
The removal of opposition to Christ receiving all in verse 12 would cause any opposition enough to be cast out forever.
Today in our world, we have men who get cast out of their jobs. They return to their employers and shoot them. In Satan's case, he is cast out and goes to make war with the one thing he knows Christ loves. His children.
I would place Satan's fall sometimes at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, most likely at the first seal.
It would make sense to me that a beast kingdom exists with 10 horns on the earth. The 11th horn now in power yet. Satan is cast out and the first seal is opened. Satan gives power to the 11th horn and he begins to work through the earth. When we get to the 5th seal, dead believers cry out to God when will you punish the inhabitants of the earth for us; obviously Christ nor God has judged the earth yet. Moving forward the angels after the 6th seal are told not to hurt anything TILL they seal the servants of God in their foreheads. Because if the angels let us God's judgement, believers would be killed. Ephesians 1:13-14:
or 2 Corinthians 1:21-22
The sealing is the Holy Spirit. If the 144k had to be sealed, wrath did not come yet till after they are sealed which the angels then begin to hurt the earth, the sea, the trees, the grass, the water etc.....Starting at the first trumpet.
How then, do we place Satan's fall after negative events? It only makes sense to start them when they start. Back to Rev 12:17 we see the last verse:
This happens at the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. The time the women flees. If the dragon goes to wage war against "those who keep God's commands", two interesting things are to be thought.
1. Most believe that God is putting forth his wrath at this second half of the 70th week. But who are those that keep's God's commands during his wrath? The 144k? Anyone else?
2. Could this war of Satan against believers be any other time then when Christ says there will be a time of trouble that has never been...….he was speaking to his disciples, believers when he said this. Matthew 24:21:
Wouldn't that fit perfectly to suggest the time of Satan's war on the earth to be the time of time of trouble, Jacob's trouble, also know as the time of great distress?
Edit: I should add, the earth is God's foot stool. The bible specifically says he must put all enemies under his footstool. I would also assume that since the earth is His footstool, he must also remove all enemies in heaven, his throne. The throne is cleansed first, the earth is cleansed second.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 29, 2018 21:22:44 GMT -6
Hi venge . On a quick note: There are things that you are grouping Ch 12 into this 70th week that I believe are not part of the 70th week for me personally. From my vantage point I have not been able to draw the timeline of the 7 year (70th week) into what all say is Revelation expounding on Daniel. I need the scriptural proof that says we use Daniel to interpret Revelation. I have come to this argument over time as I took it for granted that Revelation is about the 70th week. For some reason I do not see it that way anymore.. This is my knee jerk reaction to your post that I am in haste in reading but promise to be sure I do not miss key points you have. But lets see what my reaction is on the surface: I was merely quoting Bullinger. And I find in interesting that what he is seeing as the 3rd woe does bring up a myriad of questions. He did not have Israel as we have of today, so he himself is going by the geo-political times of his time or had no geo-political things of his time... he was staying within scripture and the had a knack for the constellations. I am not supporting nor refuting Bullinger, just bringing out what he said and lets digest it, which it appears you have started to do. When I have a better quieter moment, I will look over your timeline and likely see your argument, but then bring more questions back.. All is good on your bringing up a bunch of stuff for me to consider. I am on a time constraint yet cant help myself but respond at least this much. |
|
|
|
Post by boraddict on Jun 30, 2018 0:14:31 GMT -6
KJV
I just wanted to mention a side note to some of the verses quoted by Venge and not to take away from his points.
The BoR seems to stress the number 4. For example in Verse 18:8 there are 4 plagues: "(1) death, (2) and mourning, (3) and famine, (4) and she shall be utterly burned with fire."
Likewise, Verse 12:10 lists: "(1) salvation, (2) and strength, (3) and the kingdom of our God, (4) and the power of his Christ."
Now consider that death and mourning are not actually plagues. Thus, there are two plagues in Verse 18:8 and they are famine and Babylon's burning.
Likewise, in Verse 12:10 there may not be 4 of those stated as "now is come." Thus, what has actually "come" following the great war as described in verses 12:7-9 is not necessarily "(1) salvation" because technically salvation was with Christ in the beginning when Christ was with God; Christ is salvation from the beginning. Also, that which has "come" is not necessarily "(2) strength" because strength has always been with the Son of God. This leaves the "(3) kingdom of our God" and "(4) the power of Christ."
Lets look at "(4) the power of his Christ." Notice in Verse 13:2 that a false attempt at emulating the Godhead is listed as "power", "seat", and "great authority." Notice that the seat is held by the Savior when this list is considered as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This means that the reference to "power" pertains to God the Father.
Thus, "(4) the power of his Christ" pertains to the Christ acting under the authority of God the Father. That is, the power of his Christ is the absolute authority to act as God the Father and Christ has done that from the beginning.
This leaves out of the list of 4 in Verse 12:10 "(3) the kingdom of our God." Thus, after the great war in heaven the kingdom of our God was brought forth and it is that to which Verse 12:10 pertains.
Thus, the kingdom of our God was brought forth in heaven when Satan and his demons were defeated and cast out. Secondly, the kingdom of our God will come forth upon the earth when Satan and his demons are once again cast out. This event is referenced in Verses 20:1-3; "an angel ... laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil and Satan ... and cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up."
It means that the kingdom of God came forth when Lucifer was cast out of heaven and the kingdom of God will come forth when Lucifer is cast into the pit freeing the world of his wickedness. Thus, Verses 12:7-9 are dual prophecy verses about these two events.
I think this in part supports Venge's position.
In contrast to Verses 18:8 and 12:10, Verse 5:12 has 7 items listed. Thus, it appears that all of these items are applicable to "worthy is that Lamb that was slain"; in that Christ was worthy to receive: "(1) power, (2) and riches, (3) and wisdom, (4) and strength, (5) and honor, (6) and glory, (7) and blessings." The time frame that these things took place was at the beginning. Thus, the verse reads: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive (at the beginning) power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessings." Also notice that "the kingdom of God" is not included in this list and this supports that "the kingdom of God" came after Lucifer lost and was cast out after the great war in heaven. Also notice that both power and strength are included in the lists of Verses 12:10 and 5:12 showing a harmonization of the lists. It would not have been appropriate to say Christ was worthy to receive salvation; thus, the first item of Verse 12:10 is not included in Verse 5:12.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 30, 2018 8:17:50 GMT -6
Ok venge I spent a bit more time. 1st of all here is the link: philologos.org/__eb-ta/4VisionH.htm#xii1Here is from an excerpt of Bullinger in regards to the song sung in 12:10 And Bullinger goes on to say: I don't know if I fully agree with this guy, but lets try to find some common ground with us modern day present peoples. Bullinger did make an interesting observation: These two verses seem to be saying the same thing From Ch 11 and Ch 12... Look at these two verses: 15Then the seventh angel sounded (7th trumpet); and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”and 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12“For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”Personally, I have not seen these verses this way side by side, but it seems to be saying the same thing and worthy of a closer look.. but lets continue on finding common ground: You and many others do not agree with me that the Seals have been open, at least the first 4 Seals. So I may be the one with the problem here in organizing what is going on,,, BUT, in looking at the Trumpets, perhaps this is the key to this Sign last September. Perhaps this marker is to suggest there is but a 3 1/2 year period of time until the Wrath (which may or may not include the Trumpets). I am considering that the 5th, 6th and 7th Seals will be open rather close together. The 7th Seal we know preceeds the 1st Trumpet. The Trumpets do not preceed any of the Seals..right? do all agree on that? Chapter 6 of Rev ends on the 6th Seal and we get to Ch 7 which I believe is a separate vision to show more detail to John, Just like Chapter 14 is. Then Ch 8 brings us to the 7th Seal..which clearly leads to the 1st Trumpet. We do not know how long the events of each trumpet are in days or years. But there is much symbolism with trees and grass and sea and blood..Your analysis of that I found helpful. Has anyone ever consider the that 7 Angels that sound the trumpets are the same angels of the Churches? and can the Bowls be part of the Trumpets? And, is there any indication that the Trumpet and Bowls are layered together? |
|
...If Saturn (Satan) signified the time of creation, the serpent, the deception, the fall of man. Jupiter is the King planet signifying the return of the King, perhaps the Great Sign tells us the King is about to arrive, the redemption of man is at hand or the kingdom is coming. OK Mike what are you saying that we all havent really figured out yet? Where are we in the history of the world and how does it line up our theologies? God has been showing us (mankind) things in the stars for at least 6000 years. But this one Great Sign He made sure He told us about it in the Word and told us it was GREAT. 
