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Post by sesquipedalian on Jun 21, 2018 18:31:06 GMT -6
This is a bit of thinking out loud and trying to systematically examine the possibilities.
Why September 23-24, 2017?
1) It's not actually the Great Sign from Revelation 12
2) It marked the actual time of the Rapture
3) It was an 8 month warning (you know you're pregnant after the first month, and then there are 8 months to go)
4) It was a 9 month warning
5) It was pointing to the Feast of Trumpets generally but not September 23-24, 2017 specifically
6) It was pointing to Pentecost generally but not May 20, 2018 specifically
I think that's all the possibilities (please suggest any others if you think of them).
We can probably rule out #1 because I think it's too incredible to be a coincidence. However, in Revelation 12 the woman and the dragon interact. Since there does not appear to have been any Sign of the Dragon on September 23-24 to interact with it, this casts a modicum of doubt on the arrangement actually being the Sign of the Woman.
We can rule out #2 for obvious reasons.
#3 points to Pentecost, which is thought-provoking, but the Rapture obviously didn't happen 8 months later.
#4 remains to be seen.
#5 and #6 are nice, but why set up such an elaborate and dramatic sign if the event it signifies is not ready to go?
Based on careful thinking #4 seems to be the most likely, or perhaps the least unlikely. To make things even more interesting, June 24, 2018 is the date calculated by the Enoch Calendar method. June 24 is also a candidate date for Pentecost based on one method of determining the new year, but it seems to have been ruled out based on the date the barley ripened.
Pentecost makes sense as a Rapture date, but May 20 has come and gone, and June 24, though interesting, seems to have been ruled out. (But, of course, June 24 isn't in the rearview mirror yet.)
Sooooo... why that particular sign on that particular date?
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Post by fitz on Jun 21, 2018 19:32:16 GMT -6
Personally, I am waiting for a birth to occur. Rev. 12 is about a woman giving birth. She gives birth to a male (human) child. Human gestation is roughly 260 to 280 days...sometimes even a few days beyond that. This means June 20 - July 7 time frame, to me, is quite interesting. I think it means rapture.
Not even looking at #5. How can it can be the birth? It can't be. Not a human birth anyway. If the sign isn't about the rapture, then maybe FOT would be a time to look for it, and this birth sign is obviously about something else. But then, a lot of the speculation and scholarship over the past year goes right out the window.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 21, 2018 19:50:26 GMT -6
Hi Sesq.
I would like to plug in another possibility which is Lord Jesus was born on 26 Sept 3 BC and the great Chapter 12 sign commemorated his birthday; showing the sign of his return.
Next on the calendar was the Passover 2018 commemorating his day of sacrifice.
The next commemoration was the birth of the nation of Israel in the latter days; 14 May 1948.
Now we have the commemoration of Pentecost.
At some point all the commemoration dates will be over and the final affairs of the earth will take place.
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Post by stormyknight on Jun 21, 2018 20:21:23 GMT -6
I like the June 24th idea. Why? Just because the sooner the better!! haha.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the great Sign in verse 1-2 is an event in itself. The dragon is not interacting there. Not until verse 3 when another sign appears. I know there has been ideas put forth as to what/where the dragon is, but, personally, I've not seen one singular event that was convincing enough like the first sign was. I could have just not been seeing it, I don't know, but I think the whole of the Church would agree on it when it does take place, if we are here to witness it. My speculation is that it will be happening as we are raptured, like a last second thing, because our Heavenly Father is keeping that moment a secret until it happens so satan can't do any more damage than he already does. That that's why we are 'caught up', 'snatched away'...
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively
I know the verse very well in 1 Thessalonians says that if we do not wake up He will come as a thief and so we should know when He is coming as we are of the Light not the darkness. But my speculation that He is keeping it secret is that more than once He says that He is coming like a thief. Is a thief singing show tunes as he breaks into your house? No! He is being a secretive as possible to not alert those in the house. Especially the 'Strongman' that runs the place, if you get my drift! But HE let us know HE is coming. Night is falling on this world. Night is when most thieves begin their thieving, right? We may not know the hour, but we know, NOW, because of the first great sign, to be ready, to make sure our oil lamps are full and that we brought extra oil, because we will know the moment He arrives.
and it gives me tinglies just thinking about it.
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Post by sesquipedalian on Jun 21, 2018 20:57:49 GMT -6
I like the June 24th idea. Why? Just because the sooner the better!! haha. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the great Sign in verse 1-2 is an event in itself. The dragon is not interacting there. Not until verse 3 when another sign appears. I know there has been ideas put forth as to what/where the dragon is, but, personally, I've not seen one singular event that was convincing enough like the first sign was. I could have just not been seeing it, I don't know, but I think the whole of the Church would agree on it when it does take place, if we are here to witness it. My speculation is that it will be happening as we are raptured, like a last second thing, because our Heavenly Father is keeping that moment a secret until it happens so satan can't do any more damage than he already does. That that's why we are 'caught up', 'snatched away'... I strongly agree with this. There has been no consensus, as of yet, on what the second sign might be. I concur that when it happens, it will almost certainly be clear and unmistakable. And the text does imply that the Rapture will be very soon afterward. (See my previous post where I theorized that the Sign of the Dragon could be a red aurora caused by a solar flare or coronal mass ejection. Not only would this be visually dramatic, it would arrive with very little notice -- potentially less than 24 hours.) And I also agree that "another sign" means the two signs are distinct and the dragon shows up later. But because the dragon interacts with the woman giving birth in verse 4, I thought that some part of the Great Sign still needed to be intact. Last year I assumed that the latest possible date for the Rapture was October 13, because after that date the child (Jupiter) would have left the woman (Virgo) entirely. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Very insightful.  |
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Post by venge on Jun 22, 2018 4:45:30 GMT -6
Do you all hold the position this is a future even, a past event in the last 10 years or a past event over 1k years? I have always held it to be a past event over 1k years. Not a literal sign in heaven.
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Post by stormyknight on Jun 22, 2018 6:58:50 GMT -6
Do you all hold the position this is a future even, a past event in the last 10 years or a past event over 1k years? I have always held it to be a past event over 1k years. Not a literal sign in heaven. If you mean the first sign of Rev. 12:1-2, I personally, as I think do many here, believe the event took place on Sept. 23-24 of 2017. I downloaded the Solarium software just verify it myself. I couldn't find any conjunction in the past or future that resembled the sign as well as it configured on that date. Also with Jupiter having been 'in the womb' since the end of December 2016, making a full nine months, was a real kicker. Then add the August 21, 2017 eclipse and all the signs that surrounded it taking place 33 days prior just adds even more convincing data to the event. |
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Post by mike on Jun 22, 2018 7:09:46 GMT -6
One thing I continue to ponder is that my "pre-Tribulation" view may be askew. Many here like me thought God was giving the as the last minute warning, sign and rapture at once? Wrong! What if the models and theories we have from a multitude of scholars & in our heads aren't exactly correct? What if its a compilation of those theories? Pre, Mid, Post (i'm sure there are other variants)...Daniels 70th week. Was it fulfilled, is it yet to occur? Is it 7 years? Is it 3.5 yrs? so on and so on.... Remember this is a GREAT SIGN, not just any sign. Like we all see STOP signs everywhere all over the place. But this one, this one is unique, its GREAT! Not everyone can see this sign either. We see street signs, stop signs and so on, they are common to all, but those who were looking for or watching for this sign, knew about or got to see it. What makes it a great sign though? For one, its the only time it happened the way it did EVER! I know the sign was nearly identical "in the beginning" but with one different player (planet) involved. So a viewpoint from earth (with naked eye/telescope) the signs are identical, yet in reality they are not the same exact sign. So what did the first sign signify? Some say creation, or at least creation of man...hmmmm.... Some of you are adept at using Stellarium, I am inept. I would leave things like figuring out what the stars and planets mean/signify to be better explained by our friends and brothers paulwatchmandawson or gkp . I know i've watched a video or two on YouTube about this topic but I cant recall where perhaps Paul has one or knows of a good or will even do one for us ...If Saturn (Satan) signified the time of creation, the serpent, the deception, the fall of man. Jupiter is the King planet signifying the return of the King, perhaps the Great Sign tells us the King is about to arrive, the redemption of man is at hand or the kingdom is coming. OK Mike what are you saying that we all havent really figured out yet? Where are we in the history of the world and how does it line up our theologies? God has been showing us (mankind) things in the stars for at least 6000 years. But this one Great Sign He made sure He told us about it in the Word and told us it was GREAT. I hope at least one of you follows my line of thinking...this is all in my head and i'm probably blowing it trying to get it from my (fat) head to the screen If we can just cast aside our own theories for a moment and be open minded to the possibilities. We continue to see other signs developing further reinforcing the marker God gave us Sept 23-24, 2017. Is it at all possible that the great sign marked the beginning of the 7 years? Oh but Mike we would have tribulation on the earth. We dont? Earthquakes, volcanic activity, widespread flooding, unparalleled hurricanes, political upheaval, wars, rumors of wars, aliens, CERN and on and on and on... Oh but Mike then we would not have pre-trib rapture because Gods wrath starts at the beginning of the tribulation. Does it? But Mike the anti-christ would be ready to appear and create false peace, Um ok? I'm likely wrong on this and the scholars that have given us our models...one of them is right, but I am trying to keep my eyes open and hopefully keeping my heart ready for Him. |
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Post by fitz on Jun 22, 2018 7:17:52 GMT -6
Do you all hold the position this is a future even, a past event in the last 10 years or a past event over 1k years? I have always held it to be a past event over 1k years. Not a literal sign in heaven. Seems to be a dual fulfillment. Most reading Rev 12 prior to the discovery of this literal astronomical event (the sign) would have agreed that it was a picture of Israel (the woman) and Jesus (the man child), and events that were fulfilled at His first advent. And no one expected to see a literal sign in the heavens. I know I didn't. But I think it's pretty difficult to say that what we saw on 9/23/17 was nothing...a fluke or accidental alignment. Especially when one considers that it has only ever happened once. Therefore, to me, it's a dual or parallel fulfillment, and we see many of these in scripture. Do we not? |
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Post by boraddict on Jun 22, 2018 10:09:03 GMT -6
Do you all hold the position this is a future even, a past event in the last 10 years or a past event over 1k years? I have always held it to be a past event over 1k years. Not a literal sign in heaven. Seems to be a dual fulfillment. Most reading Rev 12 prior to the discovery of this literal astronomical event (the sign) would have agreed that it was a picture of Israel (the woman) and Jesus (the man child), and events that were fulfilled at His first advent. And no one expected to see a literal sign in the heavens. I know I didn't. But I think it's pretty difficult to say that what we saw on 9/23/17 was nothing...a fluke or accidental alignment. Especially when one considers that it has only ever happened once. Therefore, to me, it's a dual or parallel fulfillment, and we see many of these in scripture. Do we not? The agreement that the 9/23/17 sign was "The Great Chapter 12 Sign" cuts across all denominational boundaries. That is, those of Calvary see it as do JW, Mormon, Catholic, Reformed, and you name it; all denominations. I do not mean the leaders of churches but the common people who do their own personal research. In my own research I found that the chapter 12 sign was the: 1) birth of the Savior in 3 BC 2) birth of the apostle John as the church leader after Peter 3) birth of the apostle John as called to lead the 144,000 in the latter days However, as Fitz has eloquently stated, "no one expected to see a literal sign in the heavens. I know I didn't. But I think it's pretty difficult to say that what we saw on 9/23/17 was nothing...a fluke or accidental alignment."Now the question is, What does it mean? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 22, 2018 10:24:54 GMT -6
mike, I am with you in your thinking. There is no reason why we can't scrutinize the timelines we have been presented. And, I am apt to think it is these possibilities for the Sign: a) marking the beginning of the elements in Revelation that are the starts of birth pangs. If you look at Ch 12 and 13 they are like a summary to many of the detailed chapters that come before and after these two chapters. It is like a reference point. Because the Sign depicts Christ, perhaps we see a rapture event 3 1/2 years from it, since His ministry was that long.. b) The Rapture comes 7 years later because of a completion of a "week", a season, and then there are 2 more 7 year periods of trib and wrath, (perhaps fulfilling the timeframe of Jacob's trouble folks) Ch 14 is a three harvest (rapture? or entering Kingdom of God) portrayal Remember that we have a second American eclipse that criscrosses over little Egypt in Illinois. Would make sense of a delivery out of Egypt... Some know me enough that I tend to NOT follow what the majority consensus says about the lineup of Revelation to Daniel's 70th week. I read my Bibles use Bible hub and its translations/concordances, and challenge what people tell me I am suppose to agree with. Dont take that wrong. I think my mom BSG-mom owns every single book written by man on the topic of eschatology, and I have read thru some of them myself! I have spent countless hours on the net reading what others were saying. Yes they had scriptures yes they had credentials. But one day something struck me and I put all those published books aside and started doing my own research precept upon precept/concordances, always remaining in the Bible, never going astray... so far the result I see is that the Kingdom of God will not over take the current kingdoms like a hollywood movie. I see the beast/false prophet/babylon metaphors more of a depiction of Jesus coming to judge the heart of man. The Sign was for those watching and to remind us: Mt 1Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Is 9 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.
Those walking around the earth in that day did not recognize the significance of what Jesus was..they were looking for something else.. I say we should remember that when He comes the 2nd time..it may not come about the way the consensus have been telling us..notice the bolded verse above: of the INCREASE of His government and peace there will be no end...this to me suggests a drawn out process..beginning with the first fruits of Rev Ch 14...and could it be?? it takes 1000 years to complete?? Or, is it a literal day? leaving all that open.
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Post by boraddict on Jun 22, 2018 12:39:41 GMT -6
mike , I am with you in your thinking. There is no reason why we can't scrutinize the timelines we have been presented. And, I am apt to think it is these possibilities for the Sign: a) marking the beginning of the elements in Revelation that are the starts of birth pangs. If you look at Ch 12 and 13 they are like a summary to many of the detailed chapters that come before and after these two chapters. It is like a reference point. Because the Sign depicts Christ, perhaps we see a rapture event 3 1/2 years from it, since His ministry was that long.. b) The Rapture comes 7 years later because of a completion of a "week", a season, and then there are 2 more 7 year periods of trib and wrath, (perhaps fulfilling the timeframe of Jacob's trouble folks) Ch 14 is a three harvest (rapture? or entering Kingdom of God) portrayal Remember that we have a second American eclipse that criscrosses over little Egypt in Illinois. Would make sense of a delivery out of Egypt... Hi Barb, I like your idea of looking at Chapter 12 as a summary and it might look like: 1) The woman and her man child, Verses 1-2, (this would be Chapters 1-5) 2) The dragon and his minions, Verses 3-4, (this would be Chapter 6 (as the dragon), and the rise of the beast in Chapter 13). I can visualize the dragon having 4 humps (the 4 horsemen) and at the 4th hump two legs (death and hell), and then the swinging tail finishing out the chapter. 3) The dragon tries to destroy the man child but he (the man child) and the woman escape, Verses 5-6, (this would be the destruction of Babylon at Chapters 17 and 18, the 1st woe of Chapter 9, the barley harvest (1st rapture) of Chapter 14, the marriage sealing at Chapter 7 and part 1 of Chapter 19) 4) The War between the two and the dragon looses and is cast to the earth, Verses 7-11, (this would be Chapter 8 (excluding the 4 angels), the 2nd woe of Chapter 9, and the war (part 2) of Chapter 19) 5) The dragon tries to destroy the woman that brought forth the man child but she escapes, Verses 12-14, (this would be Chapters 10 and 11 (excluding the 3rd woe), the wheat harvest (2nd rapture) of Chapter 14, and then Chapter 15). 6) The dragon's army that pursues the woman is subdued by the earth, Verses 15-16, (this would be the 4 angels of Chapter 8, the third woe of Chapter 11, grape harvest (3rd rapture) of Chapter 14, and Chapter 16). 7) The dragon made war with the remnant, Verse 17, (this would be Chapter 20, and then the victory in Chapters 21 and 22) I think I covered all the chapters and your idea of looking at Chapter 12 as a summary works. There are some bubbles in the application at Chapters 6, 10, and 11, but that is to be expected. |
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Post by stormyknight on Jun 22, 2018 13:23:30 GMT -6
I hope at least one of you follows my line of thinking...this is all in my head and i'm probably blowing it trying to get it from my (fat) head to the screen I know where you're coming from mike. And evidently I can't even remember the name of the program I downloaded!  Stellarium=Solarium Durrr..
I really enjoy reading everyone's take on this. Of course we all can't be 100% right, but I feel that there is probably something correct in everyone's speculation, I mean, isn't the Holy Spirit helping us discern the truth?. The question is: which part? But like fitz said, no one expected to see a literal sign in the heavens. I grew up with the iconography of the catholic church and I remember well the picture of what was known as 'Mary, Queen of Heaven', which was a picture of Mary with a bright halo/aura(the sun) with stars around her head(the crown) and her feet resting on a ball (the moon). But she's not about to give birth or even looks like she's pregnant.
I found this. It would be about as close as I can think of to what I grew up around. It is the second picture down on the page.
So just from this, I think, one can surmise that the attention to the literal heavens was drawn away from by iconography such as this. Easy enough for the catholic heirarchy to explain away that John just saw Mary in Heaven. So in that sense, a large part of the population of earth are/were taught to ignore the real signs. It's no wonder that so many missed it or poo-paw'd it.
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Post by venge on Jun 22, 2018 16:56:14 GMT -6
I just cannot agree yet to a solar system display as a sign. Even Christ said a foolish generation looks for a sign. The idea that the women is Israel is well proven in scripture. The 12 stars and the son born and caught up. All as a past event. To suggest it as a shadow of things to come or a duel fulfillment, I would think it is not what the text describes when it builds to the son returning.
As Barbie said, precept upon precept. If you think we are to look into the sky, there should be multiple scripture stating such. Otherwise, everyone is turning to the left and right after their own inclinations.
I’m not saying anyone is wrong, I’m saying there needs to be scripture line by line to prove it without mathematical equations, hypothesis and foreign sources
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jun 22, 2018 18:10:30 GMT -6
first of all, thanks stormyknight for saying: We can hand out the Gospel of John to any Joe on the street and hope and have faith in the salvation is might bring, so too with when each one of us wants to dig deep into the end time prophecies, digging in directly. So thank you for not telling me I need to trust the experts. thanks boraddict because I can always count on you to have your chapters organized. Love that! It is a goal of mine to have the whole darn book memorized! LOL! will I get there??? and this thread is a good one, sesquipedalian ! May it help us in the days that seem to tary along...what a long year it has been! this time last year I was just being introduced to Unsealed..my Church family!! well, yes, even a grandiose sign will fall on faithless Christians (ones not walking in faith at all, but have a basic understand of the gospel message, we just dont know what faith is really within those souls). However, we are told by God that the things in the heavens are for : 14Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;So by this verse, I can not not say the Rev 12 1:2 sign can NOT be stellar. follow my triple negatives??lol... Keep the context of the mindset of those walking when Jesus was walking the earth and said that a sign would be worthless. They could not get past their flesh. They never could grasp the spiritual significance of anything that came their way. They were geo-political religious zealots. No need for a saviour. And no way ready for the Kingdom at hand, which He siad to them...the Kingdom is at hand! and they stood there dumbfounded... |
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Stellarium=Solarium Durrr..