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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 22, 2018 19:48:36 GMT -6
mike, let me try again: I am going to answer to this one to start: Jesus came for ALL,,,no genetic preference is what I am talking about. That is why I still to this day can not understand this comment: "The Church is out of here(rapture) so God can deal with the Jews." Yes we have all kinds of things demonstrated thru the tribes of Judah and Israel to learn about God and His ways...I am not denying this at all. So what you are saying then is that God switches from Faith to Works then... am I correct in understanding this point of view? I have the comment underlined of which I bring these questions. Here is my question: Everywhere else in Revelation so much of it is Spiritual literal...EXCEPT when we come to the 144,000...that is physical literal, no going around it and not changing this. but I am not so sure of this anymore... How can 144,000 be sealed/annointed? without believing in Faith in the Gospel of Jesus? God has separate rules? Have not many for 2000 years tried to lead a many individual jew to the Lord and many have come to the faith...way back in Acts and all the way up to today. Rev 14 has this sealing BEFORE what witness1 describes as the Wheat harvest... Is the wheat harvest the Rapture? No, I dont think so...because that has the sealing of the 144,000 prior to the rapture...is this true? Many equate the Wheat and the Tares to the Rapture...but then that means at least a mid-trib rapture then. Rev 14 to me is a general overview of events, perhaps that is my problem.. Rev 14 is very similar to Rev 7...I think they are giving details of each other...this puts much of Rev, then, "out of order", So when I see verses like in Ch 22 of Rev, and the letters to the Churches and the 7 Angels of the Churches... I pause and I begin to wonder...Jesus sent His Angel...and He has the 7 Stars in His Right Hand, and then we learn who they are: it all is connected to the 7 Churches, which all appear to have their problems, short of Philidelphia. Yet we see again later 7 angels blowing the trumpets and pouring bowls...but are there people of those churches that were christians in name only? I think that is part of the criticisms mentioned in the letters..so a judgement due to lack of Faith..and only the Lord know the heart on this matter.. and if the 70th week is NOT fulfilled yet,,,How are they the Jews to Bring in a Messiah from a Virgin? They cannot fulfill those scriptures that have already been fulfilled. And does Christ have to die twice on the Cross? Revelation is not showing me anything that they fulfill their duty of this: 'Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies. How are they going to anoint a holy of holies not made with hands? as an example...I do not see these criteria within the Book of Revelation. These are the questions I have after a year here at Unsealed...
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Post by boraddict on May 22, 2018 21:01:16 GMT -6
This is how I see the rapture:
I) The harvest summary in metaphor: Rev. Chapter 6, (a total of four woes that are represented as four horsemen, they are out of order)
1) The rise of the beast: Rev. Chapter 13, the first of four woes.
The barley harvest: Rev. Chapter 7 and Verses 14:1-5 (this is the rapture and the 144,000 are included; the first rapture)
II) The harvest summary in metaphor: Rev. Chapter 8, (a total of four woes that are represented as four angels, they are out of order), three woes remain.
2) 1st Woe: The fall of Babylon: Verses 9:1-12, 14:6-13, Chapters 17-18 (the beast destroys Babylon). The second of four woes.
3) 2nd Woe: The wheat harvest: Verses 9:13-11:14, 14:14-16, Chapter 19 (the wheat is harvested and the tares are destroyed; this is the mid-rapture). The third of four woes
4) 3rd Woe: The grape harvest: Verses 11:15-19, 14:17-20, Chapters 15-16 (the wicked are destroyed and the saints at Jerusalem are taken; the end-rapture). The fourth of four woes
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Post by disciple4life on May 23, 2018 1:43:09 GMT -6
disciple4life , I take this back... I was very wrong. I was responding of the cuff without thinking while listening to fighting kids, and this was super foolish. Please read what I wrote above your post in response to fitz. Edit: You've made some excellent points. Thank you. Grace and peace, my sister and fellow watcher. ;-) I am very aware that sometimes with online forums, and external factors, - even in person, we simply mis-hear, and sometimes we are actually saying the same thing, but articulating it differently. - Like recently, on the other post about Jesus resurrection. We were saying the same thing. ;-)
We learn from each other in so many ways - I can't even begin to say how much I have learned and am still learning from you and my fellow watchmen. It has caused me to re-examine and re-think some major issues that I was taught, but now as a student of eschatology, I realize was wrong.
We all see through glass dimly - but one day - (hopefully very very soon) we will see face-to-face. I often wonder, when we are all before the lamb, if the veil will be lifted, and then we will all just laugh and hug each other, because what I was sure was "blue sky" and mike or fitz, or @bsg or Beloved, or @natalie was convinced was "blue water" - really turned out to be a Blue house. The analogy falls apart, - somehow, we each were seeing different parts of the elephant, but when we see the big picture, all our perspectives were part of the puzzle. I'll be in that long line of people who will have questions for our master.
What we know is that if Christ has said explicitly, the rapture will be at Midnight in Jerusalem, on a new moon, at Feast of Trumpets - tens of millions would still reject him - not believe. My point is that their reason for rejecting the Messiah is due to rebellion and wanting to be God of our own lives - not because we don't have explicit details regarding the rapture.
On the other hand, it sure would be nice to have 7 days of warning, with 7.7 mega quakes in 7 cities. How many days of that would it take for people to see a pattern. I'm thinking 2, - maybe 4 for skeptics, ;-) I was so sure 2 years ago that we were in labor pains - I shared with a Catholic friend, and lost a lot of credibility. ;-(
Man, I just wish Kilauea would bust wide open, and California would fall into the ocean - seems a bit harsh, but maybe people would be woken up from FB memes of kittens, or Stormy Daniels obsession/ and Russia collusion.
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Post by witness1 on May 23, 2018 6:57:04 GMT -6
I agree... the gift of the times in which we live and the technology we have been given is that we can all learn from each other at unprecedented speed. Very few people around me want to discuss these things, yet my friends in Poland and Spain and Canada and across the US will share what they see and we can all learn. My knowledge has grown exponentially over the last 8 months, and I am grateful for each of you who knew about the prophecies in the minor prophets long before I ever did. And I'm grateful to have a place to bounce ideas around, knowing that many of them will be wrong, and that people will lovingly show me why. Yet I continue to brainstorm new ideas because I don't think the model we've been given is right. I think that is why there is so much delay between the Great Sign and the rapture... God is saying, "No, you don't have it figured out. Keep reading my word and encouraging one another and abide in me." And I think this matters because we need to leave clear water for the people left behind. If we who have had God's word all our lives can't make heads or tails of some of these difficult passages, how do we expect new believers to understand and navigate the end times? (Other than the fact that I don't think the Holy Spirit leaves with us... I think He will be just as gracious in giving the HS to them as He is to us.) I desperately love the people I will be leaving behind. My best friend, cousins, neighbors, and students in our ministry who refuse to leave the teaching of the Catholic church and embrace grace. So I am going to continue throwing out ideas. Some of them will be dead wrong, but I think some of them may have enough merit to prompt a thought in someone else and lead us all to a better conclusion. So thank you all for putting up with the foolish things I say. Although it is not fun to admit when I'm wrong, hopefully my willingness to say, "Yes that was dumb... thanks" will allow you to at least consider the things I hold tightly to.
I do think we will have a warning, which is why I didn't get at all worked up over Pentecost, even though I think the symbolism there outshines any other feast. But I think we will be given a warning and it will be abundantly clear that the rapture is coming. But I don't think the warning will be earthquakes or day counts... I think it will be the sign of the dragon. I think it will be something that threatens the church and that God will snatch us from danger. And I think that could take a long time to fall into place. I think we still have a lot of work to do in figuring out what of our end-time model is true and what is false. I watched about half of JD's urgent prophecy update, and I see that he's saying a rubber band can only stretch so far before it snaps. But let's remember that God's rubber band is infinitely stretchier than any rubber band we have. If there's anything we've seen, it is that He is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. He is endlessly patient, and our estimation of the labor pains is not His. We're like first time mothers who go to the hospital way too early and they send you home. "No... this isn't real labor yet. Yes I know it hurts but you still have a long way to go. Go home and take a walk and come back later."
So thank you all for forgiveness of the dumb things I say and thank you for considering the things I feel the Lord has cemented in my mind as truth. These are:
1) Daniel 9:27 is about Jesus.
2) Rev 9:20 says no one on earth worships Jesus at that point.
3) He will be just as gracious to those who come to believe during the tribulation as He is to us- we can't say that we are not under His wrath but "they" are because they missed the first door. Therefore "they" must leave earth before the 7 bowls of wrath, which indeed coincides with Rev 9:20 saying that no one on earth worships Jesus. This is immediately before the bowl judgments begin.
4) This point is directly after/at the same time as the 2 witnesses resurrecting and ascending to heaven... all that is left are the 7 bowls of wrath. This means that all of God's people are removed from the earth at this point- day 1263.5.
5) He will allow all who take His name to receive glorified bodies in the Millenium. He will call them Home (in death) for a few days while His wrath passes (a double fulfillment of the "hide yourselves for a little while") and then they will resurrect to glorified bodies after His return. I know I wouldn't want to live 1000 years in the body I have now. If all who take God's name are His children, why would He give us new bodies to rule and reign with Him but not those who choose to obey later? I'm reminded of the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard in Matthew 20.
6) Zechariah 14 shows that those who survive of the nations who come against Jerusalem will be forced to worship the King. These are obviously unbelievers since God's people would never come against Jerusalem and also would not be forced to worship. The people we rule and reign over during the Millenium will be unbelievers... not our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
Everything else I've proposed in trying to make sense of these 6 things I'm willing to let go of. But would you each look at this list of 6 things and see if you see any holes in it? (Other than the fact that we disagree on the Daniel passage... I have some new info to present soon though.) I feel like these are the pieces that are very clear... any other piece needs to fit around these 6 principles. I look forward to your thoughts.
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Post by witness1 on May 23, 2018 7:13:52 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, I don't quite understand all of your questions, but at least regarding the 144,000... of course they are only sealed through faith. I think the sealing comes shortly before the wheat harvest, which I believe is the angel of death killing 1/3 of mankind, whom we see in heaven as the Great Multitude who "is coming" out of the great tribulation. This is somewhere around 1260-1263.5 days into the tribulation, so the 144,000 are sealed shortly before that. I think the purpose of the 2 witnesses is to act as God's prophets to His people. After 3.5 years of sitting under these prophets, many will come to choose Christ through faith. Whether the 144,000 is a literal number or representative of a much larger number like the 24 elders, I don't know. But I agree that God is not going to just randomly seal 144,000 people who do not have faith in Him. But I do believe He will send His 2 witnesses to prophesy to them. We have always been taught that the purpose of the 2 Witnesses is to speak to the Gentiles via camera at the wailing wall. But these men dressed in sackcloth are for the Jews and are not at a literal temple. They protect God's people through fire and any means necessary while they speak their message, and many of the Jewish people will listen to them because they are clearly from Yahweh. I don't think the Jews embrace the man of lawlessness... I think the 2 Witnesses show them the truth and many will listen to them and choose Christ and be sealed. Those who don't will be taken into exile by the surrounding nations for a short time after the Witnesses ascend to heaven until Jesus comes back and saves them.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 23, 2018 7:29:40 GMT -6
Thank you both witness1 (always look for what you have to say;) and disciple4life (in a land far far away) for regrouping the essence of us all being here. I love this family here and care deeply that we take time out to reflect and be grateful for each of our tries, attempts, passions, testings, curiosity and determination and all along keeping brotherly love amongst us thru it all. thanks for being patient with me.. |
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Post by witness1 on May 23, 2018 8:16:42 GMT -6
Yes disciple4life, thank you for your encouragement and fellowship. |
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Post by mike on May 23, 2018 9:25:35 GMT -6
mike , let me try again: I am going to answer to this one to start: Jesus came for ALL,,,no genetic preference is what I am talking about. That is why I still to this day can not understand this comment: "The Church is out of here(rapture) so God can deal with the Jews." Yes we have all kinds of things demonstrated thru the tribes of Judah and Israel to learn about God and His ways...I am not denying this at all. So what you are saying then is that God switches from Faith to Works then... am I correct in understanding this point of view? I have the comment underlined of which I bring these questions. Oh OK I see...I may have mis-understood a bit. Jesus came for all but not exactly, not initially. Jesus came for the Jews, but when they rejected Him, God turned to the gentiles. Can you agree with that? Matt 15:23 And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.But of course our God is beyond great and rich in mercy and gives a hint here about anyone with faith! We do see this throughout the OT as well. Acts 10 with Peters vision helps us understand that. There are many who claim/state the stoning of Stephen which happens shortly before this vision. I dont see that as critical to the discussion as to which event or events trigger the turn from the Jews to the gentiles though. I do think that if we were alive 2000 years ago and "watching" this transpire we would understand the Messiah was sent for the Jews but also be able to see if we had eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to receive that salvation was available to all. However when that revelation would happen IDK?! Why? Because the apostles didnt see it while it happened/was happening. Paul had to have the Lord Himself knock him upside the head on the road to Damascus. So would we realize this. I probably wouldnt have, who knows...I digress Now it is widely held that the believe church is raptured and yes the time of Jacobs trouble commences at the same time. If that were true then yes we are talking about genetically Jew. God will be dealing with those who He turned His attention away from 2000 years when they rejected Him outright. I know that we arent God (thankfully) but insert yourself in the situation better follow His instruction. What did He teach the disciples? Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.Do I think God turns from faith to works? NO quite the opposite! He will deal with those who still think works are the means to God and not faith. This is if we think the rapture will trigger the time of Jacobs trouble. I will not delve into that topic as there are many opinions about the timing etc. |
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Post by venge on May 23, 2018 12:58:23 GMT -6
mike , let me try again: I am going to answer to this one to start: Jesus came for ALL,,,no genetic preference is what I am talking about. That is why I still to this day can not understand this comment: "The Church is out of here(rapture) so God can deal with the Jews." Yes we have all kinds of things demonstrated thru the tribes of Judah and Israel to learn about God and His ways...I am not denying this at all. So what you are saying then is that God switches from Faith to Works then... am I correct in understanding this point of view? I have the comment underlined of which I bring these questions. Oh OK I see...I may have mis-understood a bit. Jesus came for all but not exactly, not initially. Jesus came for the Jews, but when they rejected Him, God turned to the gentiles. Can you agree with that? Matt 15:23 And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.But of course our God is beyond great and rich in mercy and gives a hint here about anyone with faith! We do see this throughout the OT as well. Acts 10 with Peters vision helps us understand that. There are many who claim/state the stoning of Stephen which happens shortly before this vision. I dont see that as critical to the discussion as to which event or events trigger the turn from the Jews to the gentiles though. I do think that if we were alive 2000 years ago and "watching" this transpire we would understand the Messiah was sent for the Jews but also be able to see if we had eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to receive that salvation was available to all. However when that revelation would happen IDK?! Why? Because the apostles didnt see it while it happened/was happening. Paul had to have the Lord Himself knock him upside the head on the road to Damascus. So would we realize this. I probably wouldnt have, who knows...I digress Now it is widely held that the believe church is raptured and yes the time of Jacobs trouble commences at the same time. If that were true then yes we are talking about genetically Jew. God will be dealing with those who He turned His attention away from 2000 years when they rejected Him outright. I know that we arent God (thankfully) but insert yourself in the situation better follow His instruction. What did He teach the disciples? Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.Do I think god turns from faith to works? NO quite the opposite! He will deal with those who still think works are the means to God and not faith. This is if we think the rapture will trigger the time of Jacobs trouble. I will not delve into that topic as there are many opinions about the timing etc. Venge's 2 cents: I don't think the rapture will trigger Jacob's trouble. It appears to me, that the onset of Jacob's trouble is what triggers the rapture. To remove us from the wrath to come (of God's vengeance) that coincides with His saving grace because He says if he does not at this time, then no flesh would be saved... Mike, you are correct when the issue then becomes "when" the rapture actually happens as opinions abound. I think most agree as per the bible, true believers are not to be here for God's wrath. I think most agree, His wrath comes when the Day of the Lord comes. I think most agree with scripture, when it describes the day of the Lord, certain things are always said to happen. We can all agree, none of us wants to be here when it goes down. I pray that as much time as we focus on prophecy, you spend equal time on your own self and others. |
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Post by mike on May 23, 2018 15:57:51 GMT -6
venge said I pray that as much time as we focus on prophecy, you spend equal time on your own self and others. Great reminder my brother! Thank you
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 23, 2018 21:07:22 GMT -6
wel, golly, d4L, what time is it in your neck of the woods??? I am going to go to bed only to lose sleep, have a great day in the Son!
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Post by cwood85 on May 24, 2018 6:38:13 GMT -6
mikeI read on here pretty often. A lot more than I comment. However I see the above and colored statement from you in a lot of threads in one form or another towards Barb and myself and it is at least to me completely unnecessary and a bit demeaning. You may not outright say it, but the implication of your statement is pretty obvious. In that we see things in this weird hippy new age stuff that is out of the norm, so let's point that out often. Point number two on this, your recent interactions with SK has completely clouded and marred your view on this and shut you off. Especially since after he left you made sure to immediately post that "The importance of Hell" thread as a swift rebuttal to SK's threads. I read The document and the lack of scriptures referenced in was startling to "prove" something so biblical and as a fact... So from one forward personality to another I am going to list some information in regards to restoration that all in here might find interesting. I am not proving a point or saying who is or isn't right. Use the Bible, prayer, God as your true teacher, the internet, and a plethora of very very old and preserved documents to research this. SK repeatedly stated this was not all his information, and that it was learned and discovered through many avenues. There are books, websites, videos, oldddd scanned documents that are hundreds of years old. 1. Restoration is not new and is the oldest preached gospel in recorded church history. Look it up and don't take my word for it. This is not a all ways of beliefs lead you to heaven ideology. This is still 100% only through Christ can one get into His Kingdom. 2. Those over the last 2000 years who have preached and believed in this were some of the absolutely worst persecuted Christians. Remember Nero and what he did? Wrapped people in oil drenched cloth and set them on fire in droves. Go look into what those Christians believed in to go through this. Go look into the many documented cases of Restoration and persecution. 3. There is no one on the face of this planet who could face Jesus and reject Him. That is like saying they have more power than Him. I don't think so. There are so many examples of this in the Bible. Just to name a few: Nebuchadnezzar (spelling? I am on my phone, sorry) who was driven absolutely insane by God for seven years and came to repentance. Was this repentance of his own free will or did God enact Judgement until the former Babylonian king had no other choice? Hopefully that answer is obvious. Paul who calls himself the WORST OF SINNERS came to repentance entirely not of his choice, but Gods. The man just from seeing a bright light and hearing a voice fell flat on his face and begged for mercy and asked what was to be done of him by Jesus? A man who had no problem slaying people with his bare hands and worse for simply believing differently. Did he repent and choose to be the preacher of the gospel to the Gentiles of his own free will?!!  Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him. 4. If we are saved from Hell, annihilation, or eternal separation, why didn't any of the disciples preach this? And why wasn't this theme in the Old Testament? The books in the Old Testament speak of being redeemed from death, not Hell. Please don't quote KJV verses to support this as this version has taken 9 entirely different words and translated them to hell. The disciples didn't go around saying "believe believe so you are not destroyed or tormented in one way or another for eternity!!!!" Or "you better believe or you are going to be sorry!!" But that is how we think now is it not? Is that really good news? Believe in Jesus to save your neck? Nope! Believe in Jesus because he laid down his life to save everyone. Majority of people at the time that Paul preached to had no idea of a hell or if there was a belief it was PAGAN and used as a means of control. ET torment was invented by the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ was crucified to force tithing from everyone. It worked so well in fact that they were able to enact a church tax through the local governments. Don't pay and support the church, then go to hell! Why go to hell? Because they would come and find you to kill you for not paying. People were not allowed to have a copy of the Bible. They had to attend church to hear it. Wonder why... 5. No where does God say love me out of fear only. He says to fear Him because He will correct your behavior and a lot of times it is not pleasant. If you keep doing something you ought not to, he is going to correct you and set you straight out of love. Where sin abounds grace abounds. 6. Does God give up on us? Does He shrug his shoulders and say well I tried to help you, but you didn't want my help so sorry about that and. I give up because you are a lost cause. You feeble little human turned me away so I will give up on you FOREVER. Is that forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy to 100% turn your back on them and never look back? Would a loving parent with a child who is having issues with addiction or whatever troubles boot them on the street and say I tried to help you but you just wouldn't listen, so I am giving up on you... No they don't. My sister was a junkie for several years and my mom never gave up on her. Not once. Everyone else told her to and that she had done all she could. My sister was simply a lost cause to them or that my mom was enabling my sisters actions by letting her live with her. She put my mom through absolute hell. My mom had cars totaled, things stolen, property destroyed, picked my sister up from drug dealers houses and put herself in some very scary situations to save and help my sister. There where many times I thought my poor mom was going to have a heart attack. But to my mom she was going to everything she could to heal my sister. Even if it meant destroying her own sanity and happiness. Why would she do this? Because she LOVES my sister and true love never gives up. She relied on God because he was the only one who had her back. My sister has been clean for over 4 years, works full time and supports herself. "Love never gives up." <<< I 100% trust and believe that with a God who knows and acts infinite love. 1 Corinthians 13 Now here is a scenario to ponder: A king rules a kingdom who is very powerful, rules with much knowledge and tells his people he loves them more than anything, his only requirement however is that each and every person in his kingdom must kiss his ring or they will be sent down to be tormented for as long as they live or locked away in a pitch black dungeon until they die. Now do the people obey and love this king because he loves them or are they "loving" and obeying him to save their own necks? Just my two cents. Again don't take my word on this stuff, look it up for yourselves.
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Post by witness1 on May 24, 2018 13:08:46 GMT -6
cwood85, regarding #4 that everyone worships Him, what do you make of Zechariah 14? A few is us have recently turned our attention to who will be present in the Millenium, and we see that the people who refuse to go up and worship the Lord will not receive rain in their land. This doesn’t sound like voluntary worship. I agree that every knee will bow, but it doesn’t sound like every knee will be willing... at least not at first.
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Post by boraddict on May 24, 2018 19:00:34 GMT -6
mike (Point one) I read on here pretty often. A lot more than I comment. However I see the above and colored statement from you in a lot of threads in one form or another towards Barb and myself and it is at least to me completely unnecessary and a bit demeaning. You may not outright say it, but the implication of your statement is pretty obvious. In that we see things in this weird hippy new age stuff that is out of the norm, so let's point that out often. Point number two on this, your recent interactions with SK has completely clouded and marred your view on this and shut you off. Especially since after he left you made sure to immediately post that "The importance of Hell" thread as a swift rebuttal to SK's threads. I read The document and the lack of scriptures referenced in was startling to "prove" something so biblical and as a fact... So from one forward personality to another I am going to list some information in regards to restoration that all in here might find interesting. I am not proving a point or saying who is or isn't right. Use the Bible, prayer, God as your true teacher, the internet, and a plethora of very very old and preserved documents to research this. SK repeatedly stated this was not all his information, and that it was learned and discovered through many avenues. There are books, websites, videos, oldddd scanned documents that are hundreds of years old. 1. Restoration is not new and is the oldest preached gospel in recorded church history. Look it up and don't take my word for it. This is not a all ways of beliefs lead you to heaven ideology. This is still 100% only through Christ can one get into His Kingdom. 2. Those over the last 2000 years who have preached and believed in this were some of the absolutely worst persecuted Christians. Remember Nero and what he did? Wrapped people in oil drenched cloth and set them on fire in droves. Go look into what those Christians believed in to go through this. Go look into the many documented cases of Restoration and persecution. 3. There is no one on the face of this planet who could face Jesus and reject Him. That is like saying they have more power than Him. I don't think so. There are so many examples of this in the Bible. Just to name a few: Nebuchadnezzar (spelling? I am on my phone, sorry) who was driven absolutely insane by God for seven years and came to repentance. Was this repentance of his own free will or did God enact Judgement until the former Babylonian king had no other choice? Hopefully that answer is obvious. Paul who calls himself the WORST OF SINNERS came to repentance entirely not of his choice, but Gods. The man just from seeing a bright light and hearing a voice fell flat on his face and begged for mercy and asked what was to be done of him by Jesus? A man who had no problem slaying people with his bare hands and worse for simply believing differently. Did he repent and choose to be the preacher of the gospel to the Gentiles of his own free will?!! Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him. 4. If we are saved from Hell, annihilation, or eternal separation, why didn't any of the disciples preach this? And why wasn't this theme in the Old Testament? The books in the Old Testament speak of being redeemed from death, not Hell. Please don't quote KJV verses to support this as this version has taken 9 entirely different words and translated them to hell. The disciples didn't go around saying "believe believe so you are not destroyed or tormented in one way or another for eternity!!!!" Or "you better believe or you are going to be sorry!!" But that is how we think now is it not? Is that really good news? Believe in Jesus to save your neck? Nope! Believe in Jesus because he laid down his life to save everyone. Majority of people at the time that Paul preached to had no idea of a hell or if there was a belief it was PAGAN and used as a means of control. ET torment was invented by the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ was crucified to force tithing from everyone. It worked so well in fact that they were able to enact a church tax through the local governments. Don't pay and support the church, then go to hell! Why go to hell? Because they would come and find you to kill you for not paying. People were not allowed to have a copy of the Bible. They had to attend church to hear it. Wonder why... 5. No where does God say love me out of fear only. He says to fear Him because He will correct your behavior and a lot of times it is not pleasant. If you keep doing something you ought not to, he is going to correct you and set you straight out of love. Where sin abounds grace abounds. 6. Does God give up on us? Does He shrug his shoulders and say well I tried to help you, but you didn't want my help so sorry about that and. I give up because you are a lost cause. You feeble little human turned me away so I will give up on you FOREVER. Is that forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy to 100% turn your back on them and never look back? Would a loving parent with a child who is having issues with addiction or whatever troubles boot them on the street and say I tried to help you but you just wouldn't listen, so I am giving up on you... No they don't. My sister was a junkie for several years and my mom never gave up on her. Not once. Everyone else told her to and that she had done all she could. My sister was simply a lost cause to them or that my mom was enabling my sisters actions by letting her live with her. She put my mom through absolute hell. My mom had cars totaled, things stolen, property destroyed, picked my sister up from drug dealers houses and put herself in some very scary situations to save and help my sister. There where many times I thought my poor mom was going to have a heart attack. But to my mom she was going to everything she could to heal my sister. Even if it meant destroying her own sanity and happiness. Why would she do this? Because she LOVES my sister and true love never gives up. She relied on God because he was the only one who had her back. My sister has been clean for over 4 years, works full time and supports herself. "Love never gives up." <<< I 100% trust and believe that with a God who knows and acts infinite love. 1 Corinthians 13 Now here is a scenario to ponder: A king rules a kingdom who is very powerful, rules with much knowledge and tells his people he loves them more than anything, his only requirement however is that each and every person in his kingdom must kiss his ring or they will be sent down to be tormented for as long as they live or locked away in a pitch black dungeon until they die. Now do the people obey and love this king because he loves them or are they "loving" and obeying him to save their own necks? Just my two cents. Again don't take my word on this stuff, look it up for yourselves. Hi CW. (Point One) Your opinion is valid concerning Mike; however, what may come across as abrasive is not necessarily the case. Please believe me, I am not defending him, but I know his spirit and it is not in his nature to go against the grain of Christ. So please consider that we do not have the advantage face to face and Mike is a true friend speaking as a true friend. If he were to say something disparaging toward me I would take it in the most positive light because that is the case. As a matter of fact, I remember once he and I butted heads and then I realized he did not have a mean spirit and I had taken what he said in a wrong way. I love Mike. He is a true friend as are you, so I hope you can have peace with him. (Point Two) No one misses SK more than I. He and I were kindred spirits and I knew that from our first interactions. He was brilliant but not perfect. He knew the right questions to ask and it caused me to work at understanding scripture. However, I must say some of his ideas were not in line with mine and that is okay. I have not met anyone that has scriptural ideas in line with mine. The problem that I have with SK is that he made friends and then left. I have done that before so I am guilty as well. I guess that is life but it hurts those who love us. This brings me to the things you have listed that I would like to comment on: 1) Are you speaking of Restoration Theology? Perhaps you could clarify for me. It is my understanding that the Savior has established his gospel message upon this earth twelve times. Thus, the gospel message was originally taught by Adam and restored to the earth 11 times. 2) Your timeline should go back to Adam. The followers of Christ have been persecuted throughout all time and it was not because of the restoration but because of Satan's desire for destruction. Keep in mind that the word "Satan" is a frame of mind. That is why Lord Jesus called Peter "Satan," because he had a frame of mind that was not in line with the Father. 3) Anyone who will not bow the knee will be cast out. Will Lucifer bow the knee? No. He rebelled in the beginning and drew 1/3rd of the rebellious with him. Many say it was one third of all the hosts of heaven but I say it was 1/3rd of the rebellious because the others were against him. Thus, of the ones he influenced, 1/3rd were cast out with him because they would not follow nor bend the knee toward the Father. Likewise, anyone who will not bend the knee toward Christ will be cast out along with all those who would not bend the knee toward the Father. All others will have salvation in one of the many mansions for eternity. That is, anyone who repents will be forgiven at some point up until the final judgment upon them. Thus, you and I are forgiven and have salvation in Christ whereas the next guy might need to be at deaths door to repent and have salvation. The question is, will a person of another faith have an opportunity for salvation? The answer is yes. Everyone will have a opportunity to repent and only Christ knows their fate. The truly wicked will not bend the knee and they will be cast out. Thus, all who live and not die the eternal death will have bent the knee to Christ. I say eternal death meaning those with the same fate as Lucifer; those who will not bend the knee. There is another death that is spiritual death and those are the ones who have bent the knee but are restricted from the presence of the Father. Said restriction is the result of a judgment such as the the unpardonable sin among others. Keep in mind that at the beginning of the Savior's ministry, Lucifer was in the presence of Christ and did not fall on his face but demanded to be worshiped. 4) Your point on hell is very good. Lets just say that when we pass over into the spirit world, after this life, we either have salvation or we do not. Those who do not have salvation may not care. However, those who do have salvation have comfort and peace. So lets say that an individual is wracked with guilt for the things he did upon this earth; thus, he is experiencing hell (a state without peace). This does not mean that he will never find peace for the Lord is merciful. That is, if he is willing to bend the knee then he will find mercy and peace. However, in our case we will have peace always, the others may go through a little hell on their path towards eternal peace and forgiveness; after they have paid a price in pain and suffering for what they did while in mortality. 5) Fear is a great motivator. If we fear God then we believe in God and have our salvation. That is, we will fear the righteous judgment upon us from a just God. We are guilty of sin; thus we fear God to repentance. Those who do not fear the judgment to not fear God; like Lucifer does not fear God. It is better to fear God and repent. Those of us who have a relationship with and love God need not fear. However, if we step out of line it is wise to fear the just and righteous judgment that is "bound" to be upon us and repent. 6) You are right. God never gives up. There are some that have made the decision to be their own gods and cast God out. Thus, since God can not be in their lives then what is he to do? His compassion endures forever. Nevertheless, there is a time of judgment at which a decision has to be made. If there is hope then the benefit of the doubt is surely given. But if there is no hope like in the case of Lucifer and his 1/3rd then the judgment is cast and it is permanent. 7) The King that rules with love and compassion does not demand obedience from his people but they are obedient because they love him. The king that demands obedience will never have it. Thank you CW. Hope you like my responses. |
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Post by cwood85 on May 24, 2018 23:21:13 GMT -6
cwood85 , regarding #4 that everyone worships Him, what do you make of Zechariah 14? A few is us have recently turned our attention to who will be present in the Millenium, and we see that the people who refuse to go up and worship the Lord will not receive rain in their land. This doesn’t sound like voluntary worship. I agree that every knee will bow, but it doesn’t sound like every knee will be willing... at least not at (See Jeremiah 19:1-6, Amos 5:1-4 and Isaiah 29) 3Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! (Refrence to Matthew 24:16-21) The Holy ones are with the Lord on His day 6In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. REV 21: 6 "I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost." 1 COR 5:5 " I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." 9And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. 10All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. 11People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security. First the land splits into a Valley from the middle of the Mount of Olives in which people will flee, now the land is changed to a plain. This to me is not literal, but a metaphor. 12Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 13It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. If their flesh, eyes, and tongue have literally rotted away how can they be combative with one another? To me this is representing a form of judgement against those who attacked Jerusalem and possibly is not literal. I am looking into this more however.
14Judah also will fight at Jerusalem;( How can Judah fight Jerusalem? Jerusalem was originally in Judah. Quiet possibly where the plural of Jerusalem comes into the text) and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. 15So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps. 16Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths Tabernacle with the Lord 17And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. ( "Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.” Hosea 6:3, “Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit; let the earth cause them both to sprout; I the Lord have created it. Isaiah 45;8
18If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 20In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the LORD’S house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. “Then set the pot empty on the coals,
That it may become hot and its bronze may burn,
That its filthiness may be melted in it,
That its scum may be consumed." Ezekiel 23:11) And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day. This last part about the cooking pots are those who have been refined by the Lord and are Holy to Him. Those who where righteous before him and are in His kingdom. |
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Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him.