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Post by fitz on May 22, 2018 9:17:23 GMT -6
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 9:34:33 GMT -6
In the sheep and goats judgment, I see nothing that indicates that people have to be living when this takes place. I agree here, saw this from Peter,, 1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.I have often wondered, the Revealing of Christ is not for those who are alive at the time of this event. For certain we know that those who are asleep will rise first and then those who are alive and remain, for one thing. But also, Christ has the Keys to Death and Hades...He is in control of that, so even if you die apart from Christ, you are in His judgement. I am paraphrasing how I am understanding it. “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.editing to add and save post space:@witness said this:God does not pour out the 7 bowls of wrath while His people are still on the earth
Can you define this term His people? I agree that the Believer/Christ-follower/One who answer His Call, is not destined for wrath. Would you equate the bowl wraths to this part of Rev 14
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.I ask this because throughout Isaiah we see many a reference to wine/grape/vine...and it seems there is a parallel to these Isaiah proclamations and Rev 14:19. What seems be before me is a wrath of those who are denying Christ as their saviour. The Rock hewn not from hands, the Redeemer, etc... It is worthy of a thread topic really. Yes, I define the term His people as anyone who has put their faith in Him. Those people who are known by His name. I do equate the bowls of wrath to these verses in 19 and 20. I see this as a separation between those who have the name of the Lord and those who choose the name of the beast. The earth is ripe... everyone has grown up together and everyone has chosen which side to be on. The first angel in verses 15-16 is reaping the grain: those who believe in Jesus. This happens immediately after the angel says "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." So I think the grain is breathed on by God's angels and wake up in heaven and the grapes are thrown into the bowls of wrath. |
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 9:41:28 GMT -6
I will look at this later... I need to tend the the kids. But I don't consider gotquestions the ultimate authority. They are men who have put together a website, and it doesn't mean they are right about everything. I will look at their argument, but I would prefer for you to look at their argument and then show me from scripture why you disagree with me. I have laid out a pretty logical argument with plenty of scriptural support. |
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Post by fitz on May 22, 2018 10:12:18 GMT -6
witness1 I just post these links because I have found that I agree with Got Questions about 95% of the time. They have a very traditional Dispensational view of eschatology, as do I. Rather than me trying to write it out, it's already been worded much more eloquently (and accurately) than I could. Please consider that these "men" who assembled this website are presenting answers based on well established Christian theology/eschatology. I wouldn't say they have 100% of everything correct, but they do draw from a wealth of Christian knowledge and doctrine formed over the past 2000 years and it's done with careful consideration to the whole counsel of God (all scripture in harmony). I'm not trying to dissuade you from perusing your own studies. Not everyone agrees on eschatology as evidenced by the several main theories we know of that are at odds. But personally, I think the Holy Spirit will confirm correct eschatology through many, many people. Consensus. When I hear ideas that have not been established by anyone in the past 2000 years, I am skeptical. Perhaps I just need to stay out of the threads here that diverge from established eschatology?
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Post by boraddict on May 22, 2018 10:27:06 GMT -6
There are different things going on. The first is the 144,000 that are taken and this group is not limited to the 144,000 but is much larger than that; however, the 144,000 are in this first group.
There is a second group that is gathered by the 144,000. That is the reason for the sealing to the Savior. They are sealed as the bride of Christ but more than that they have a job to do and that job is to gather in God's people from throughout the earth. God's people that were not committed prior to the beginning of the tribulation but now are. These are the wheat of the harvest whereas the first group was the barley of the harvest and the last group is the grapes of the harvest.
The last group (the third group), is taken personally by the Savior. It is here that the first and second groups are also taken from wherever to wherever. Basically, they have already been taken by the Savior but now the dead also rise and they are somehow also involved in that celebration of sorts. Then the earth burns, and afterwards the living (mortals) return to repopulate the earth similar to Noah and his family repopulating the earth.
Thus, there are three raptures. The first at the beginning of the seven years (conducted by angels), the second at the middle of the seven years (conducted by mortals, the 144,000), and the third at the end of the seven years (conducted by the Savior himself in which he also raises the dead).
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 11:34:53 GMT -6
witness1 I just post these links because I have found that I agree with Got Questions about 95% of the time. They have a very traditional Dispensational view of eschatology, as do I. Rather than me trying to write it out, it's already been worded much more eloquently (and accurately) than I could. Please consider that these "men" who assembled this website are presenting answers based on well established Christian theology/eschatology. I wouldn't say they have 100% of everything correct, but they do draw from a wealth of Christian knowledge and doctrine formed over the past 2000 years and it's done with careful consideration to the whole counsel of God (all scripture in harmony). I'm not trying to dissuade you from perusing your own studies. Not everyone agrees on eschatology as evidenced by the several main theories we know of that are at odds. But personally, I think the Holy Spirit will confirm correct eschatology through many, many people. Consensus. When I hear ideas that have not been established by anyone in the past 2000 years, I am skeptical. Perhaps I just need to stay out of the threads here that diverge from established eschatology? I understand. I agree with them about 95% of the time too, and I also think I have a very traditional Dispensational view of eschatology. I don't think Daniel's 70 weeks have been fulfilled. I don't think the church has replaced Israel. I think God has a separate plan for Israel and His church in the end days. I think the book of Ruth shows us the relationship between the Gentile bride and the redeemed of Israel (Naomi)- that Israel is redeemed when the Gentile bride is taken. I think the church is raptured before the 7 seals are opened and are the 24 elders present in a literal heaven (separated completely from earth) throughout the events of Revelation. I don't see how I am diverging that far from established eschatology. What I am saying is radical... I understand that. But it is not against what we know to be true of God's character, and it does not disagree with dispensational theology. I don't think I have twisted any verses to make them say what I want them to say. Rather I am taking a verse very literally: "the rest of mankind worships demons". The only new idea I am presenting is that God saves those who are His in the tribulation just like He does before the tribulation. He saves them by breathing death on them and taking them up to heaven, as a brilliant chess move against the enemy. There is only 1 rapture, and God uses this rapture to snatch His church out of the hands of the dragon who is thrown down in great wrath. But God has another group of believers after the rapture as well, and He is just as merciful to them and He is to us. He snatches them out of the hand of the enemy again, but this time it is in death and not a rapture. Now all of God's people will live in the millenium in glorified bodies, saved from the consequences of sin. It is a gift to die and resurrect at the start of the Millenium and not live 1000 years in broken, sinful bodies. I am asking for you to see what it is that you disagree with because I can read these links you post and not see any discrepancy with what I'm saying. I understand that it's already written out nicely, and I have read these for years and know the traditional view. What I don't see is the scripture to support these views, so maybe you could help me to see it. |
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 11:41:16 GMT -6
In looking through the minor prophets listed at the end of that link, this gem came up:
"I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey." Ezekiel 34:22
Edit: In fact, the entirety of this scripture proves very interesting. Ezekiel 34:17-24
“As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord God: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats. Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture; and to drink of clear water, that you must muddy the rest of the water with your feet? And must my sheep eat what you have trodden with your feet, and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
“Therefore, thus says the Lord God to them: Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. Because you push with side and shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns, till you have scattered them abroad, I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep. And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. And I, the Lord, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the Lord; I have spoken."
This passage is not about sheep and goats but about sheep and sheep. It looks to me like the Lord is saying that His fat sheep with clear water (we who have the scriptures and walk with the Lord) have muddied the water for His other sheep and have tread down their pasture. We thrust at the weak with our horns. We are giving them an incorrect, muddy picture of the end. But He will save them and not allow them to be prey any longer. Then He will be shepherd over us all.
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Post by mike on May 22, 2018 12:13:06 GMT -6
BSG
I will not call you anything other than sister! I do understand that you have learned certain things over the last several months that has caused your eyes to open quite widely. I respect that about you and also understand (maybe more than I could ever articulate) that neither you nor I nor anyone else here or elsewhere has a corner on interpreting scripture. We are to be diligent and God rewards those who diligently seek Him.
I am trying to quote you in the above but didnt bold the exact way you did, sorry...My question to you in this is why have left off the qualifier for the statements? Yes Jesus died for ALL but not ALL accept this...
Tribulation is for every soul..who does evil and glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good...God is not partial in that He is Just. I respect the position of Restoration but I see this passage as God rendering based on "conduct"
I believe that this above contradicts your prior citation somewhat? God is no respecter of persons. Saved, unsaved, Jew, Greek (atheist, monotheist, poly) - irrelevant He is Just and we have zero excuse to say "I didnt believe that so I'm exempt from it" If Jesus died for everyone, why would others be excused from learning or knowledge of Him (or Revelation, etc.)
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Post by fitz on May 22, 2018 12:41:48 GMT -6
witness1 sorry if I am misinterpreting you, but you seem to be saying (by extrapolation from your main point) the only living flesh and blood people remaining on earth at the second coming are the Jewish remnant that believe in Jesus. Again, I refer you to excellent work that proceeds us and gives ample scriptural proof that believing flesh and blood gentiles will go on into the Millennium to re-populate the earth. I could never provide you with this much exhaustive reference organized so well! bible.org/seriespage/15-nations-millennium-and-eternal-state(And I am not trying to be contentious.  Just defending what I see as truth.)
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 14:57:35 GMT -6
HI fitz . I don't see you as being contentious. I am very grateful for pushback so I can see where I am wrong and how I need to adjust. I don't think I have it all figured out, so I appreciate having various angles from which to think about this. Thank you for giving me these resources. That is a really excellent article. I see that I very much need to adjust my thinking. You're absolutely right that all nations will be present during the Millenium. I was not thinking about those verses, but of course they need to be considered. That was a huge blind spot on my part. Thank you. The only point I am firm on is that the verse: "the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons" makes it sounds like there are no believers alive when Christ returns. But this does not mean that the only flesh and blood people on earth are the Jewish remnant, which is what I was thinking before you showed me this error. It is interesting because I have been considering whom Jesus kills when He returns for quite some time now. Does He kill everyone who takes the mark? Or only the armies gathered against Him? This would leave women and children and men outside of fighting age out of this. There are 2 passages in scripture dealing with Jesus' return: "Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh." Rev 19:17-21"And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths." Zechariah 14:12Both of these sound like Jesus only kills those who are in war against Him.
Zechariah goes on to tell us what will happen in the Millenium: "Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths. This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths". Zechariah 14:16-19
This says that there will be those who survive of all the nations. But indeed, the worship offered here sounds forced. This is the "every knee will bow"... some willingly, and some unwillingly. These people will be forced to keep the Feast of Booths to worship the King, or there will be no rain on them. This definitely does NOT sound like believers who would willingly bow to our Lord.
So, in summary, I was very wrong in jumping to the conclusion that the only people alive are the remnant, and I am grateful to be shown my error. But I still hold that God removes all believers from the earth before His bowls of wrath are poured out. After looking more closely at Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19, I believe that non-believers will enter the Millenium and be forced to worship Jesus. Those who are killed at His coming sound like those gathered to fight against Him, leaving women and children and other men out of the equation. |
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Post by disciple4life on May 22, 2018 16:32:09 GMT -6
Why do we need Gentiles to repopulate the earth? Does the model of the flood only protecting the Jewish remnant not have any precedent in what we might expect for the second world-wide judgment? I don't see anything in the verses you cited that says anything about the remnant being only Jews?? That's one of the things that is not clear - and I think is eisegesis. Reading something into the text not warranted, or implied.
Also, then in this post, I'm also confused by this question/ statement.
witness1 "Why do we need Gentiles to repopulate the earth ?? Does the model of the flood only protecting the Jewish remnant not have any precedent in what we might expect for the second world-wide judgement. ?
The great flood happens in Genesis 7, long before Abraham comes and when God establishes his covenant with Israel. Jacob, who is renamed Israel is not even on the scene yet. Noah was a righteous man and he and his sons and their wives were saved - because they were righteous, (obeyed God) not because they were Jewish. They didn't have the ten commandments, nor was circumcision established.
Even if we could somehow show they were Jewish - There is nothing in scripture that I know of that says or implies that the only ones left at the second coming will be Jewish. They are the tribulation saints - who do not take the mark of the Beast. This would include tens of thousands of people who heard the truth, raised in Church, or their grandma was a Christian, but they simply didn't believe her/ or the Bible.
After there's world-wide anarchy and chaos and tens of millions missing, thousands will be getting their Bible out again and looking, and it will sink in. I think of the tens of thousands of Catholics around the world, who have been deceived for hundreds of years by the false doctrine of Rome. They are encouraged to NOT read the Bible.
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 16:38:47 GMT -6
disciple4life , I take this back... I was very wrong. I was responding of the cuff without thinking while listening to fighting kids, and this was super foolish. Please read what I wrote above your post in response to fitz. Edit: You've made some excellent points. Thank you.
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Post by venge on May 22, 2018 16:59:26 GMT -6
disciple4life , I take this back... I was very wrong. I was responding of the cuff without thinking while listening to fighting kids, and this was super foolish. Please read what I wrote above your post in response to fitz. Edit: You've made some excellent points. Thank you. I will say this. I posted it 3 times and this website keeps deleting my message. Grr. hard to reply to you when its fighting me! Your answer lies in Joel 2. I had a nice write up and it keeps getting deleted so I aint writing it a 4th time lol. Just go read Joel 2. Edit: That's for Witness to answer his question of Rev 9 or you can PM me for the answer. |
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Post by mike on May 22, 2018 19:10:46 GMT -6
disciple4life , I take this back... I was very wrong. I was responding of the cuff without thinking while listening to fighting kids, and this was super foolish. Please read what I wrote above your post in response to fitz. Edit: You've made some excellent points. Thank you. Dang kids! 🤣 |
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Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 19:12:27 GMT -6
They're killing me today Mike! Probably because I need to get off my computer and play with them...
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Just defending what I see as truth.)
