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Post by mike on May 25, 2018 7:04:33 GMT -6
cwood85 - I missed your note here to me and didnt catch it until late last night. At first I pretty off-put by it as a "natural" (insert carnal) reaction rather than a "supernatural" (insert spiritual) one. Before I go through I want to preface something with you and for the benefit of others who may be newer here and not dialogued with me or you. For many years one of my most difficult challenges has been communication. I am a bottom line person and often take for granted that people understand the context of a dialogue and therefore I often leave out detail that is almost always necessary to ensure full understanding of ANY conversation. Over the last year or so (since God has grabbed my attention) He has caused me to realize that I am completely inadequate, deficient and just plain poor at communication. I am probably not doing a very good job at getting my point across now either. And that will most likely be prevalent as you read the rest of this. I do hope that you will read my reply to you and your concerns as one of sincerity. I intend zero sarcasm, contention or combativeness. One of things I have learned through interacting with others on this site (both of which I am extremely grateful for) is that none of us has it 100% correct. No one has perfect doctrine. No one has fully figured out everything God has spoken about. No one. I try to approach everyone here with that same mindset. everyone has a take on scripture, most have a consensus on certain things and we all need to recognize the most important single fact that Jesus is the Savior. Period. Secondary "doctrines" are just that and we differ in our sight of these. Apparently I have not approached you you or BSG with the same respect I try to treat others with and for that I do apologize. I did not realize I was coming across that way. Thank you for pointing this out to me and everyone else reading this thread. I will admit that I do not agree with the line of thinking and doctrine. However I suppose I should watch how I phrase my counterpoints to those statements as they have obviously upset you and perhaps BSG to some degree. While I would have preferred you contact me privately to address your concern, here we are. I see that we have very differing worldviews on things and I am ok with that but you should also be aware that there are others on the site who disagree with the Restoration viewpoint and have contacted me expressing great concern. So someone else sees my reply as necessary where you see it as "unnecessary" and "demeaning". Not my intent for sure but certain my failure, to which I apologize to you, BSG and others who may feel as you do. My interactions with SK on this topic and other topic are/were my interactions. I do not appreciate you telling me that those interactions have " completely clouded and marred my view and shut me off". How do you know this? Are you in my head? Do you listen to my prayers about this and other things I discuss with God? discuss with my wife? discuss with my family or friends? My viewpoint on this topic is my viewpoint. Whether wrong or right it is how I currently see it. Again CWood you not having the insight or knowledge of other dialogue that I have with other people has caused you, in your limited view/knowledge to make a judgement call on my intent, which I understand but do not appreciate. Only God can judge my heart and intent, however your comments here appear to me that you are. Others have contacted me privately on a number of concerns including but not limited to Restoration and as such I felt the need to spell out in a new thread one of the (3) varying (possibly legitimate) viewpoints (that I am aware of) on eternity, the Importance of Hell. I encourage you and others to read what I wrote about before posting the article. In no way was it a rebuttal to anyones views. In no way was I endorsing or condemning another worldview. I was merely presenting it for others to educate themselves or at the least be a starting point for others to study further. I also encouraged someone with the knowledge of Annihilation to offer that perspective as well, so each could further educate themselves and come to their own conclusions. I suppose you miss that piece and it sounds like you assume my intent was to disprove/rebut, which I thought was clear in what I wrote but again I must have missed the boat on that one as you don't sound like you took it the way I intended. My communication skills are more lacking than I could've imagined. Praise God anyway sister, I can only try and continue to fail at it I guess. I see that you raise several points on Restoration in this thread. I do not desire to engage in this conversation in this thread any further but will be happy to do so in a new one should your desire be to continue to dialogue about it?
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Post by mike on May 25, 2018 7:12:30 GMT -6
Dearest boraddict - I appreciate that you understand where I trying to come from in my posts. With all honesty I really was not aware that you thought of me as coming across abrasive. As I state in the above response to Cwood, I am terrible at communication. I thought God was improving this in me, but wow this makes it clear that I have gone nowhere. I am thankful that you have been able to glean from our communication that my intent is to be a brother to you and a help not a mean spirited person. One other point to you sister...I saw much of the dialogue you had with SK and completely agree " he knew the right questions to ask... some of his ideas were not in line with mine and that is ok" Thank you for that. I need to reevaluate me being ok with others ideas and be okay with them. Thank you again |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 25, 2018 9:03:02 GMT -6
God's wrath and what the Tribulation isn't... oh my dearest brother mike and my sister cw... oh how we long to rid ourselves of this flesh we have. I will add an apology by my ownself here for derailing this thread in the first place by the questions I brought forth. And I forgive you mike and if I did you wrong, please forgive me...
Our blessed Hope is that when we are all together beyond the glassy sea we will only experience these things that are opposite of wrath and tribulation:
4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
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Post by disciple4life on May 26, 2018 16:12:54 GMT -6
mike I read on here pretty often. A lot more than I comment. However I see the above and colored statement from you in a lot of threads in one form or another towards Barb and myself and it is at least to me completely unnecessary and a bit demeaning. You may not outright say it, but the implication of your statement is pretty obvious. In that we see things in this weird hippy new age stuff that is out of the norm, so let's point that out often. Point number two on this, your recent interactions with SK has completely clouded and marred your view on this and shut you off. Especially since after he left you made sure to immediately post that "The importance of Hell" thread as a swift rebuttal to SK's threads. I read The document and the lack of scriptures referenced in was startling to "prove" something so biblical and as a fact... So from one forward personality to another I am going to list some information in regards to restoration that all in here might find interesting. I am not proving a point or saying who is or isn't right. Use the Bible, prayer, God as your true teacher, the internet, and a plethora of very very old and preserved documents to research this. SK repeatedly stated this was not all his information, and that it was learned and discovered through many avenues. There are books, websites, videos, oldddd scanned documents that are hundreds of years old. 1. Restoration is not new and is the oldest preached gospel in recorded church history. Look it up and don't take my word for it. This is not a all ways of beliefs lead you to heaven ideology. This is still 100% only through Christ can one get into His Kingdom. 2. Those over the last 2000 years who have preached and believed in this were some of the absolutely worst persecuted Christians. Remember Nero and what he did? Wrapped people in oil drenched cloth and set them on fire in droves. Go look into what those Christians believed in to go through this. Go look into the many documented cases of Restoration and persecution. 3. There is no one on the face of this planet who could face Jesus and reject Him. That is like saying they have more power than Him. I don't think so. There are so many examples of this in the Bible. Just to name a few: Nebuchadnezzar (spelling? I am on my phone, sorry) who was driven absolutely insane by God for seven years and came to repentance. Was this repentance of his own free will or did God enact Judgement until the former Babylonian king had no other choice? Hopefully that answer is obvious. Paul who calls himself the WORST OF SINNERS came to repentance entirely not of his choice, but Gods. The man just from seeing a bright light and hearing a voice fell flat on his face and begged for mercy and asked what was to be done of him by Jesus? A man who had no problem slaying people with his bare hands and worse for simply believing differently. Did he repent and choose to be the preacher of the gospel to the Gentiles of his own free will?!!  Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him. 4. If we are saved from Hell, annihilation, or eternal separation, why didn't any of the disciples preach this? And why wasn't this theme in the Old Testament? The books in the Old Testament speak of being redeemed from death, not Hell. Please don't quote KJV verses to support this as this version has taken 9 entirely different words and translated them to hell. The disciples didn't go around saying "believe believe so you are not destroyed or tormented in one way or another for eternity!!!!" Or "you better believe or you are going to be sorry!!" But that is how we think now is it not? Is that really good news? Believe in Jesus to save your neck? Nope! Believe in Jesus because he laid down his life to save everyone. Majority of people at the time that Paul preached to had no idea of a hell or if there was a belief it was PAGAN and used as a means of control. ET torment was invented by the Roman Catholic Church hundreds of years after Christ was crucified to force tithing from everyone. It worked so well in fact that they were able to enact a church tax through the local governments. Don't pay and support the church, then go to hell! Why go to hell? Because they would come and find you to kill you for not paying. People were not allowed to have a copy of the Bible. They had to attend church to hear it. Wonder why... 5. No where does God say love me out of fear only. He says to fear Him because He will correct your behavior and a lot of times it is not pleasant. If you keep doing something you ought not to, he is going to correct you and set you straight out of love. Where sin abounds grace abounds. 6. Does God give up on us? Does He shrug his shoulders and say well I tried to help you, but you didn't want my help so sorry about that and. I give up because you are a lost cause. You feeble little human turned me away so I will give up on you FOREVER. Is that forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy to 100% turn your back on them and never look back? Would a loving parent with a child who is having issues with addiction or whatever troubles boot them on the street and say I tried to help you but you just wouldn't listen, so I am giving up on you... No they don't. My sister was a junkie for several years and my mom never gave up on her. Not once. Everyone else told her to and that she had done all she could. My sister was simply a lost cause to them or that my mom was enabling my sisters actions by letting her live with her. She put my mom through absolute hell. My mom had cars totaled, things stolen, property destroyed, picked my sister up from drug dealers houses and put herself in some very scary situations to save and help my sister. There where many times I thought my poor mom was going to have a heart attack. But to my mom she was going to everything she could to heal my sister. Even if it meant destroying her own sanity and happiness. Why would she do this? Because she LOVES my sister and true love never gives up. She relied on God because he was the only one who had her back. My sister has been clean for over 4 years, works full time and supports herself. "Love never gives up." <<< I 100% trust and believe that with a God who knows and acts infinite love. 1 Corinthians 13 Now here is a scenario to ponder: A king rules a kingdom who is very powerful, rules with much knowledge and tells his people he loves them more than anything, his only requirement however is that each and every person in his kingdom must kiss his ring or they will be sent down to be tormented for as long as they live or locked away in a pitch black dungeon until they die. Now do the people obey and love this king because he loves them or are they "loving" and obeying him to save their own necks? Just my two cents. Again don't take my word on this stuff, look it up for yourselves. Hello @cwood
I have to say that I am aware that things often don't come through on these forums how we intend, or how we imagine. No one has all the pieces, and I have been 'sure' that the piece I held was 'sky' because it was too perfect to be water. After joining it with others' piece - only then, did it become clear that it was actually a blue house or something. The analogy breaks down, but I'm an otter who likes pictures. I think that this forum sharpens and shapes us - that even when we strongly disagree with someone, I can usually learn something from him or her. Maybe I don't agree with their numerology or combining different numbers of dates to make 12, and then combining strong's numbers to make a case for something - but they have a much deeper understanding than I, regarding the 2 witnesses, or astronomy, or the correlation between the seals and bowls. ;-) - Imho, I don't see or understand how your points are at all related to the thread - and a moderator is welcome to move this response. Maybe you could start another thread. One one hand, I don't want to further derail the thread, but on the other hand, I wanted to address some points in the post.
I respect others' views and right to have their own opinions, but I try to distinguish between peoples' views on "Who is the 'he' in Daniel' Messiah/Antichrist" or Who Gog of Magog refers to? as there are some mysteries that are just not revealed to us yet. But I think that the point #3 and #6, above are cases of eisegesis, and I respectfully and strongly disagree. Cwood85 - "3. There is no one on the face of this planet who could face Jesus and reject Him. That is like saying they have more power than Him. I don't think so. There are so many examples of this in the Bible. Just to name a few: Nebuchadnezzar (spelling? I am on my phone, sorry) who was driven absolutely insane by God for seven years and came to repentance. Was this repentance of his own free will or did God enact Judgement until the former Babylonian king had no other choice? Hopefully that answer is obvious. Paul who calls himself the WORST OF SINNERS came to repentance entirely not of his choice, but Gods. The man just from seeing a bright light and hearing a voice fell flat on his face and begged for mercy and asked what was to be done of him by Jesus? A man who had no problem slaying people with his bare hands and worse for simply believing differently. Did he repent and choose to be the preacher of the gospel to the Gentiles of his own free will?!! Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him."
Scripture is filled with examples of people who came face to face with Christ and didn't accept him or his message. If this were true, every person who ever met or saw Christ would be saved. In the NT alone, there were tens of thousands who heard him, saw him, and even saw his miracles, and even ate of the bread and fish - [multiple cases]. Then there was the other thief on the cross, and all the scores of Roman soldiers who beat him, mocked him, whipped him, and even gambled for his clothes. Then, there are the countless Jewish Pharisees who knew him by name and saw him up close and heard him teach in the Temple. - There were all the village people who saw the miracle of Jesus how he healed the man with the Legion of Demons, and they not only rejected him, but asked him to leave their town. - There were all the leaders who even saw Christ heal on the Sabbath, and those who encountered Christ when he wrote on the ground, and they all walked away. - Then we have the very clear example of the Rich young ruler who had a very personal encounter with Christ, and rejected Christ because the cost was too great. -- then we have the passage which says that "narrow is the way" and there are few that find it. This is a sharp contrast to the notion that "Anyone who sees him will say "You are my Lord - and fall on their face and worship him." And point #6 is also directly counter to what we see clearly in scripture. In both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Countless thousands of people were given chances to change and repent and didn't and God's long-suffering ran out, and they were killed/destroyed/ sent to hell. The best example is the Flood of Noah. The whole world was destroyed because of their wickedness - were they rewarded? No, God never rewards wickedness. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah. Did they all repent. Did God give them eternal chances? No. He destroyed them with fire and brimstone. - All the Egyptians who followed after the Children of Israel were destroyed, and God even killed all the firstborn people and cattle and livestock in the plagues. - All the prophets of Baal were killed. - All the people of Jericho were killed, and Lot's wife. - Then, we have Judas in the New Testament, and the other thief on the Cross - Did Christ give him eternal chances - No. He died right beside the Messiah, and the other thief was forgiven and instantly in Heaven. -Then we have the story of Lazurus, and the rich man suffering in Hell, and who wants Lazarus to warn his brothers. - Then, in the most clear example of all - in Acts of Ananias and Saphira, who both lied to the apostles and were struck dead instantly. Scripture says "all liars will have their part in the lake of fire." This doesn't sound like a reward, nor is it a neutral case, where they were simply made to sit on the bench - not allowed to play in the game.
The notion of universalism doesn't fit the pattern of history, nor does it match with clear scripture - and it undermines the entire doctrine of rewards and punishment, and it totally negates the entire point of the tribulation. The tribulation will be when God once again turns his attention to the Jewish people, and for the Jews, they will all come to faith. For millions of others who take the mark, God's mercy and lovingkindness stops and his wrath and judgement is poured out - there is certain death and punishment in hell. I am not convinced that people suffer for all eternity, but the notion that everyone gets saved in the end is a gross distortion of scripture.
Maranatha Disciple4life
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Or that he could have said nah I don't accept You Jesus so I am going to keep on my way to Damascus. No!!!! Now think of those who are going to be face to face with Jesus and won't "accept" Him or His mercy from their own free will... Anyone who sees Him will absolutely say "YOU ARE MY LORD!" And will fall on their face and worship Him.