God's wrath and what the Tribulation ISN'T
May 6, 2018 6:36:30 GMT -6
sawdy, mike, and 2 more like this
Post by witness1 on May 6, 2018 6:36:30 GMT -6
I am writing this in response to venge 's post on the Psalm 83 thread, but since I am pretty guilty of derailing threads, I decided to start a new one since this doesn't really have to do with Psalm 83. The purpose of this is to sort through the questions: 1) What is God's wrath? 2) How much suffering will tribulation saints go through and for what purpose? 3) Why do tribulation saints have to suffer if we get the easy button of the rapture? 4) What does Revelation say and NOT say about martyrdom?
Venge, I think these are all very valid thoughts. When I didn't believe in the rapture for a few months, these were all the issues I shared as well. How do I expect God to remove me from the tribulation and then ask my neighbors to choose Jesus and be beheaded for their faith? If I were called to martyrdom, God would have to give me supernatural faith in the moment. Because I don't have it right now. How do I expect new believers to be willing to die for their faith, and why does God ask them to do that and not me (assuming I'm raptured)? And I don't think I've worked them all out yet, but here are a few points to consider:
1) Giving Satan the ability to conquer the whole world IS God's wrath. Something has been restraining Satan until the appointed time. Whether by Michael or the Holy Spirit, we know Satan has been restrained. Even with all of the countless, terrible atrocities that have been committed over the years, there has never been worldwide suffering and control of Satan. There have been strongholds of light all over the world where Satan couldn't touch. It's like when you read about that awful Southwest flight recently where someone was sucked out of the window. That is TERRIBLE! I can't imagine. But that is still only one person in how many thousands of flights? And the school shootings... again, awful. My husband recently did the funeral for a school shooter... it's so horrible you almost can't bear it. But at the same time, statistically speaking, I don't expect 1/3 of the children in schools today to be shot by a classmate. The fact that Satan will go forth to conquer and have all authority for 42 months IS God's wrath on the world. People have asked for God to be removed from them, and He will give them what they are asking for. This IS God's wrath, and it comes after He removes His followers. I think of this as His "indirect wrath" rather than His "direct wrath" that comes at the end of the tribulation.
2) Job is an example of a righteous man, just like Abraham and Moses and the other great men in the Bible. But this does not mean all men are called to share their same level of faith. I wish we did. But God gives some 5 talents of faith, and He gives some only 2 talents of faith. Each man is only responsible to invest what he has been given... we should pray that God will help us to be faithful and look to Job as an example, but at the same time, we are not to despair that we have not been given 5 talents. Yes, God gave Satan control over Job. BUT, he did not have the power to kill Job. And God did not give Satan the same power over every man with 1 talent of faith. The takeaway from Job is that Satan had to ASK for power, and God had to give it. And He gave it in this case because He knew Job would be faithful. We can't look at Satan being given power over Job as proof that God will give Satan power over each of us.
Now, if God were to call the masses to martyrdom, He will give His true followers 5 talents in the moment it is needed. But this is not usually the way we see God work. We see God develop a person's faith over time... slowly calling us out into deeper waters. Each of us investing the faith that has been given and then getting more. So by the time chosen saints are called to martyrdom, they have already been trusting Jesus out on the water for quite some time. Again, it's possible to throw a new believer straight in the deep end and for Jesus to offer His hand, but this isn't the way He usually works. He calls people on the water who know how to keep their eyes focused on Him. There are a lot of new believers, and there are some wicked servants who have never invested their 1 talent. It's up to God to decide what to do with them. But I don't think He has given us all the same talents He gave Job.
3) The idea that it doesn't make sense for God to remove believers from the tribulation and then make new believers suffer for their faith... and that they will be in a world under God's wrath when we are removed from it... has led me to some unusual ideas which I will throw out for your review. I haven't had time lately to develop my thoughts well, so this will be a crude skeleton of an idea unfortunately. And obviously this is all my opinion but I'm not going to write IMO every other sentence.
So this began because this verse REALLY jumped out at me:
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Rev 9:20-21
This verse tells me that everyone who is left on earth at this point in the tribulation is NOT a follower of Jesus >>> anyone who worshiped Jesus has just been killed by the angels of death. This is at the 6th trumpet and is the 2nd woe. So it is right about the time that the 2 Witnesses are killed and then resurrect... 1260 days into the Great Tribulation. What does it imply that anyone who worshiped Jesus has been killed by the angels of death? MERCY! God saves those who are His from His wrath AND the wrath of Satan. There is only one rapture, but I believe He mercifully kills those who are His. This is why we see the theme of 1/3 throughout the book. Throughout the Bible, sometimes God spares 1/3, and sometimes He takes 1/3. But somehow the third part is His. This third of mankind who has just been killed by the angels of death is the Great Multitude who appears in heaven in Revelation 7. Notice the angels who fall on their faces praising God. He has just done something awesome and unexpected. Something awesome like snatching His followers out of the grasp of Satan. This Great Multitude has "come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." They have become followers of Jesus during the GT, and somehow they all appear in heaven at once... perhaps because they were all killed at the same time? The time after which the Bible tells us that no one alive from then on worships Jesus? I wrote a long post with more details here: unsealed.boards.net/post/20401/thread
4) There is no vignette in Revelation picturing mass beheadings or martyrdom. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, Rev 22:18
Here's what we know:
a) The dragon goes off to make war with the offspring of the woman after the male child was caught away and the woman is protected in the wilderness. He goes off to make war, but it does not say he beheads millions of people.
b) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:5-10
This certainly sounds like the beast will kill many. But this is captivity and conquering in war... this is not, "if you don't deny Jesus and take the mark of the beast, you will be beheaded," followed by mass beheadings. The faith and patience of the saints is that vengeance is the Lord's and He will take this beast captive and kill him with the sword just as he has done to the saints. So we see that Satan is given power to conquer in war and take God's people captive. And yes, some will die under this regime and all will suffer. But yet I wonder... how long is it between this conquering and God sending the angels of death to remove His people from this world? God is merciful in the amount of temptation He allows His people to bear. People who choose to wait until after the rapture to come to faith will have to suffer more than those of us who know Him when the door closes, but anyone who wants to be His will be saved, just as the verse you quoted says: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
God's people will be delivered from the hand of Satan... some in the rapture, and those following in death. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” Rev 14:13
c) Jesus says that some of us will be delivered up to death. "Some" means that this will be the exception and not the rule. Yes, we should all be prepared to die if necessary for our faith, trusting that God will give us the strength we need. But martyrdom will not be imposed upon every believer on the face of the earth. After a short period of tribulation and persecution, God will rapture His people out of it. This will be done to show that He saves those who are His, thereby encouraging people after we are gone to place their trust in Him when they see the evil of the world they are left in. I do think there will be short tribulation and persecution before the rapture, in order to show people WHY we have been taken. They will know there is a good God who saves. And He does the same with them... rescuing them after a short time under the control of the beast... except this time their rescue is a merciful, painless death and not a rapture.
d) The 2 Witnesses are the only ones shown in Revelation to be killed specifically for their faith. These two alone would satisfy the 5th seal martyrs waiting for the rest of their brothers to be killed. And we know that the angels of death "kill"... so we need nothing more than the 2 Witnesses waiting for the angels of death to kill the followers of Jesus so that God's wrath can rain down in vengeance on the beast system. We don't need to picture the 5th seal martrys as thousands of believers waiting for more believers to be beheaded. We need to see a minimum of 2 people asking when God will take vengeance. And the answer is that He cannot rain down His direct wrath while His followers are still on the earth... they need to be killed first and then His direct wrath will come.
5) God's wrath after ALL of His people are removed from this world is His wrath on Satan and that beast kingdom- those who know the Gospel and reject it. I don't believe God comes in "direct wrath" on the everyday men and women on this earth who have not heard the Gospel. And yes, there are people in America who haven't heard the Gospel... we encounter them all the time in our ministry. And they are without excuse- they can clearly see God in nature and should open a Bible and read it (Romans 1). But I still believe He gives substantial trial to turn people to Him rather than just capriciously zapping people with lightning bolts. God's "direct wrath" comes after all have clearly heard the Gospel from the angel flying through the air and have all been given a chance to either accept or reject His offer of forgiveness. I am saddened by people who keep saying, "time's up! God's about to zap you!" with seeming glee and pride that they have accepted Him when all those heathens out there haven't. These heathens haven't been converted TO OUR SHAME (1 Cor 15:34). The church has failed them. Yet God is merciful on us sinners who have failed to proclaim His Gospel to the nations, and I believe He will be merciful to those who haven't heard the Good News and will give them a chance to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I don't think He just kills them on day 1. He will do abundantly more than we could ask or imagine for our loved ones left behind.
We have been taught that anyone who doesn't know God by an appointed time will be killed in horrible, painful ways, and anyone who DOES decide to follow Christ will be forced to choose martyrdom or eternal damnation through the mark of the beast. I don't see either of these in the text though. People keep asking, "what is the purpose of the tribulation?" The answer: 1) to save the unsaved, primarily the Jews, 2) to pour out wrath on the truly evil beings who have been in control of our earth. No, it's not going to be a walk in the park for those left behind, which is why we should do our best to share the Gospel now. But since the PURPOSE of the trial is mercy and salvation, it will not be more than anyone who chooses the Lord can bear.
Venge, I think these are all very valid thoughts. When I didn't believe in the rapture for a few months, these were all the issues I shared as well. How do I expect God to remove me from the tribulation and then ask my neighbors to choose Jesus and be beheaded for their faith? If I were called to martyrdom, God would have to give me supernatural faith in the moment. Because I don't have it right now. How do I expect new believers to be willing to die for their faith, and why does God ask them to do that and not me (assuming I'm raptured)? And I don't think I've worked them all out yet, but here are a few points to consider:
1) Giving Satan the ability to conquer the whole world IS God's wrath. Something has been restraining Satan until the appointed time. Whether by Michael or the Holy Spirit, we know Satan has been restrained. Even with all of the countless, terrible atrocities that have been committed over the years, there has never been worldwide suffering and control of Satan. There have been strongholds of light all over the world where Satan couldn't touch. It's like when you read about that awful Southwest flight recently where someone was sucked out of the window. That is TERRIBLE! I can't imagine. But that is still only one person in how many thousands of flights? And the school shootings... again, awful. My husband recently did the funeral for a school shooter... it's so horrible you almost can't bear it. But at the same time, statistically speaking, I don't expect 1/3 of the children in schools today to be shot by a classmate. The fact that Satan will go forth to conquer and have all authority for 42 months IS God's wrath on the world. People have asked for God to be removed from them, and He will give them what they are asking for. This IS God's wrath, and it comes after He removes His followers. I think of this as His "indirect wrath" rather than His "direct wrath" that comes at the end of the tribulation.
2) Job is an example of a righteous man, just like Abraham and Moses and the other great men in the Bible. But this does not mean all men are called to share their same level of faith. I wish we did. But God gives some 5 talents of faith, and He gives some only 2 talents of faith. Each man is only responsible to invest what he has been given... we should pray that God will help us to be faithful and look to Job as an example, but at the same time, we are not to despair that we have not been given 5 talents. Yes, God gave Satan control over Job. BUT, he did not have the power to kill Job. And God did not give Satan the same power over every man with 1 talent of faith. The takeaway from Job is that Satan had to ASK for power, and God had to give it. And He gave it in this case because He knew Job would be faithful. We can't look at Satan being given power over Job as proof that God will give Satan power over each of us.
Now, if God were to call the masses to martyrdom, He will give His true followers 5 talents in the moment it is needed. But this is not usually the way we see God work. We see God develop a person's faith over time... slowly calling us out into deeper waters. Each of us investing the faith that has been given and then getting more. So by the time chosen saints are called to martyrdom, they have already been trusting Jesus out on the water for quite some time. Again, it's possible to throw a new believer straight in the deep end and for Jesus to offer His hand, but this isn't the way He usually works. He calls people on the water who know how to keep their eyes focused on Him. There are a lot of new believers, and there are some wicked servants who have never invested their 1 talent. It's up to God to decide what to do with them. But I don't think He has given us all the same talents He gave Job.
3) The idea that it doesn't make sense for God to remove believers from the tribulation and then make new believers suffer for their faith... and that they will be in a world under God's wrath when we are removed from it... has led me to some unusual ideas which I will throw out for your review. I haven't had time lately to develop my thoughts well, so this will be a crude skeleton of an idea unfortunately. And obviously this is all my opinion but I'm not going to write IMO every other sentence.
So this began because this verse REALLY jumped out at me:
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Rev 9:20-21
This verse tells me that everyone who is left on earth at this point in the tribulation is NOT a follower of Jesus >>> anyone who worshiped Jesus has just been killed by the angels of death. This is at the 6th trumpet and is the 2nd woe. So it is right about the time that the 2 Witnesses are killed and then resurrect... 1260 days into the Great Tribulation. What does it imply that anyone who worshiped Jesus has been killed by the angels of death? MERCY! God saves those who are His from His wrath AND the wrath of Satan. There is only one rapture, but I believe He mercifully kills those who are His. This is why we see the theme of 1/3 throughout the book. Throughout the Bible, sometimes God spares 1/3, and sometimes He takes 1/3. But somehow the third part is His. This third of mankind who has just been killed by the angels of death is the Great Multitude who appears in heaven in Revelation 7. Notice the angels who fall on their faces praising God. He has just done something awesome and unexpected. Something awesome like snatching His followers out of the grasp of Satan. This Great Multitude has "come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." They have become followers of Jesus during the GT, and somehow they all appear in heaven at once... perhaps because they were all killed at the same time? The time after which the Bible tells us that no one alive from then on worships Jesus? I wrote a long post with more details here: unsealed.boards.net/post/20401/thread
4) There is no vignette in Revelation picturing mass beheadings or martyrdom. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, Rev 22:18
Here's what we know:
a) The dragon goes off to make war with the offspring of the woman after the male child was caught away and the woman is protected in the wilderness. He goes off to make war, but it does not say he beheads millions of people.
b) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:5-10
This certainly sounds like the beast will kill many. But this is captivity and conquering in war... this is not, "if you don't deny Jesus and take the mark of the beast, you will be beheaded," followed by mass beheadings. The faith and patience of the saints is that vengeance is the Lord's and He will take this beast captive and kill him with the sword just as he has done to the saints. So we see that Satan is given power to conquer in war and take God's people captive. And yes, some will die under this regime and all will suffer. But yet I wonder... how long is it between this conquering and God sending the angels of death to remove His people from this world? God is merciful in the amount of temptation He allows His people to bear. People who choose to wait until after the rapture to come to faith will have to suffer more than those of us who know Him when the door closes, but anyone who wants to be His will be saved, just as the verse you quoted says: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
God's people will be delivered from the hand of Satan... some in the rapture, and those following in death. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” Rev 14:13
c) Jesus says that some of us will be delivered up to death. "Some" means that this will be the exception and not the rule. Yes, we should all be prepared to die if necessary for our faith, trusting that God will give us the strength we need. But martyrdom will not be imposed upon every believer on the face of the earth. After a short period of tribulation and persecution, God will rapture His people out of it. This will be done to show that He saves those who are His, thereby encouraging people after we are gone to place their trust in Him when they see the evil of the world they are left in. I do think there will be short tribulation and persecution before the rapture, in order to show people WHY we have been taken. They will know there is a good God who saves. And He does the same with them... rescuing them after a short time under the control of the beast... except this time their rescue is a merciful, painless death and not a rapture.
d) The 2 Witnesses are the only ones shown in Revelation to be killed specifically for their faith. These two alone would satisfy the 5th seal martyrs waiting for the rest of their brothers to be killed. And we know that the angels of death "kill"... so we need nothing more than the 2 Witnesses waiting for the angels of death to kill the followers of Jesus so that God's wrath can rain down in vengeance on the beast system. We don't need to picture the 5th seal martrys as thousands of believers waiting for more believers to be beheaded. We need to see a minimum of 2 people asking when God will take vengeance. And the answer is that He cannot rain down His direct wrath while His followers are still on the earth... they need to be killed first and then His direct wrath will come.
5) God's wrath after ALL of His people are removed from this world is His wrath on Satan and that beast kingdom- those who know the Gospel and reject it. I don't believe God comes in "direct wrath" on the everyday men and women on this earth who have not heard the Gospel. And yes, there are people in America who haven't heard the Gospel... we encounter them all the time in our ministry. And they are without excuse- they can clearly see God in nature and should open a Bible and read it (Romans 1). But I still believe He gives substantial trial to turn people to Him rather than just capriciously zapping people with lightning bolts. God's "direct wrath" comes after all have clearly heard the Gospel from the angel flying through the air and have all been given a chance to either accept or reject His offer of forgiveness. I am saddened by people who keep saying, "time's up! God's about to zap you!" with seeming glee and pride that they have accepted Him when all those heathens out there haven't. These heathens haven't been converted TO OUR SHAME (1 Cor 15:34). The church has failed them. Yet God is merciful on us sinners who have failed to proclaim His Gospel to the nations, and I believe He will be merciful to those who haven't heard the Good News and will give them a chance to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I don't think He just kills them on day 1. He will do abundantly more than we could ask or imagine for our loved ones left behind.
We have been taught that anyone who doesn't know God by an appointed time will be killed in horrible, painful ways, and anyone who DOES decide to follow Christ will be forced to choose martyrdom or eternal damnation through the mark of the beast. I don't see either of these in the text though. People keep asking, "what is the purpose of the tribulation?" The answer: 1) to save the unsaved, primarily the Jews, 2) to pour out wrath on the truly evil beings who have been in control of our earth. No, it's not going to be a walk in the park for those left behind, which is why we should do our best to share the Gospel now. But since the PURPOSE of the trial is mercy and salvation, it will not be more than anyone who chooses the Lord can bear.
