|
|
Post by witness1 on May 19, 2018 20:41:45 GMT -6
Well, we have a fresh new page on this thread and are getting back on track. So I’m posting this here again:
As I was reading through Revelation again, something struck me regarding the issue of whether anyone will be “neutral” at the time of Jesus’ coming. I am proposing that 1) the only believers alive when Jesus descends on the Mount of Olives will be the Jewish remnant, 2) that Jesus will kill everyone who has taken the Mark of the Beast, and 3) that God’s angels kill any believers at the 6th trumpet before Jesus returns.
It was proposed that there could be a cave dweller somewhere who survives the tribulation who neither worships Jesus nor takes the mark. But this verse suggests differently:
And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. - Revelation 13:7b-8
Everyone whose name has not been written in the Lamb’s book of life will worship the beast... there is no neutral position.
|
|
|
|
Post by disciple4life on May 22, 2018 1:47:29 GMT -6
Well, we have a fresh new page on this thread and are getting back on track. So I’m posting this here again: As I was reading through Revelation again, something struck me regarding the issue of whether anyone will be “neutral” at the time of Jesus’ coming. I am proposing that 1) the only believers alive when Jesus descends on the Mount of Olives will be the Jewish remnant, 2) that Jesus will kill everyone who has taken the Mark of the Beast, and 3) that God’s angels kill any believers at the 6th trumpet before Jesus returns. It was proposed that there could be a cave dweller somewhere who survives the tribulation who neither worships Jesus nor takes the mark. But this verse suggests differently: And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. - Revelation 13:7b-8 Everyone whose name has not been written in the Lamb’s book of life will worship the beast... there is no neutral position. Hello witness1, and fellow watchmen,
I agree 110% that during the Tribulation, or specifically, at the second coming, - there will not be anyone neutral. I think what some have suggested - [I'm trying to understand what some are thinking - not promoting this view ;-) ] is that there may be some people "off the grid" in rural areas, who are not followers of Christ, but who distrust the Government, and have huge issues with a mark/microchip, or whatever in order to buy and sell. They might not have the mark, but Christ has whoever is not with him is against him - so they would be Lost/ in the same crowd with those who took the mark. Just as in the same way that there are millions of people today who are not atheist, or Muslim, or Satanists, but have not accepted Christ - they might be 'charitable' people, or help the community, but their good deeds are like filthy rags in God's sight.
Could you clarify - I'm not sure if you are proposing Either 1 or 2 OR 3, - Like @enochwalked 3 possible scenarios regarding signs - or All of the above. How do you come to the conclusion/ idea that God's angels kill 'believers' at the 6th Trumpet. ?? This not only doesn't square with scripture, but how is that our "Blessed hope". There will be Tribulation saints - and not only Jews. I think it's very likely that they will/may have to be martyred for their faith, but it would not be God killing them.
Disciple4life
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 6:49:26 GMT -6
Hi disciple4life ! I am proposing all of the above. I came to this conclusion based on several verses, the main ones being these: "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts." Rev 9:20-21
I take these verses literally: the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues worship the beast. That is a pretty simple statement that you would have to do some serious linguistic gymnastics to make it mean anything other than what it says: everyone alive worships the beast. Therefore there is no one alive who worships God. Therefore anyone who did worship God has just been killed. Therefore the 1/3 of mankind killed by the angels were believers. It seems like fairly straightforward logic to me. How is this our "Blessed Hope"? Because Satan doesn't get victory over these people for not taking the mark of the beast. Because these angels do not torture people. (Their power to harm is in their tails, but they kill with their mouths... read it carefully!) We do see torture in the previous section with the locusts for 5 months. These specifically are torturing the people who are part of the beast kingdom, and they will long to die but can't. These angels who kill 1/3 of mankind are in direct contrast to the torture just seen- death is merciful. We also see this clue: "And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped." Rev 14:13-16
We see the angel say that it is a blessing to die. That's how this death is the "Blessed Hope" of these believers. These people may now rest from their labors because their deeds follow them. Immediately after that, the earth is reaped because the harvest is fully ripe. Everyone alive has either chosen the Lord or the beast, so the harvest is ready. Two angels are there: one gathers believers to heaven and another throws the grapes into the winepress for the 7 bowls of wrath. So in summary... we see that death is a blessing for God's people, and we see that there is a point in time where 1/3 of mankind die and then everyone alive after that worships the beast. Let that sink in.
As far as tribulation saints, how do we "know there will be tribulation saints and not only Jews"?? What we know: 1) We know there are 5th seal martyrs, and there is more than one. 2) We know they are asking the Lord when He will avenge their death, and the Lord tells them to wait a short time until their fellow servants have been killed. 3) We know that avenging their death means judging Satan and the beast system: the Lord pouring out His direct wrath on them. 4) The Lord cannot yet pour out His direct wrath on the beast system while His people are still on the earth. What we don't know: 1) We don't know that the tribulation martyrs will number in the hundreds or thousands. We simply know there is more than 1. 2) We don't see any vignette in Revelation where Satan beheads hundreds or thousands of people. In combining what we know and what we don't know, it seems clear to me that it is extremely possible that the tribulation martyrs are simply the 2 witnesses. They die and cry out to the Lord to avenge their death. Most scholars believe the events of the 5th and 6th seals happen close together, and at the 6th seal, God's direct wrath comes. "for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” Rev 6:17 God does not pour out the 7 bowls of wrath while His people are still on the earth. So these 5th seal martyrs are begging for God's bowls of wrath to come, and He tells them it will come as soon as their fellow servants have been killed so they are safe in heaven with Him too. These fellow servants receive the blessing of death from the angels who kill God's portion of 1/3 of mankind, and then God takes His power and begins to reign over the beast. (Rev 11:15) |
|
|
|
Post by fitz on May 22, 2018 7:04:48 GMT -6
Before the Millennium begins, there is the Sheep and Goats judgement. Believers separated to the right, unbelievers to the left. This is a judgement of living humans after the Tribulation. There must be a living remnant of God's people at the second coming to re-populate the earth or there would be no gentiles left during the Millennium. I can't believe these are only the remnant of believing Jews as it's a given that these Jews are believers, which would then negate the need for the judgement. I also cannot believe God would send His angels to kill believers. Protect them, yes. Kill them? I seriously doubt it.
My .02
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 7:23:59 GMT -6
So is it more merciful for an angel to breathe on you and you wake up instantly in heaven, or is it more merciful to allow Satan to kill all of these people for not taking the mark? Why is it hard to believe God would kill believers, when "killing" simply means breathing on them and then opening their eyes in the next world?
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 7:35:52 GMT -6
Why do we need Gentiles to repopulate the earth? Does the model of the flood only protecting the Jewish remnant not have any precedent in what we might expect for the second world-wide judgment?
Edit: I take this statement back. This was wrong and foolish, and I didn't spend any time in thought before posting it. I am not deleting it because I am happy to admit when I make an error.
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 22, 2018 7:38:59 GMT -6
Following this conversation, and just like all have been rereading Revelation to the point of almost having it in memory, at least the topics of the chapters. I have a deep question in regard to this comment by witness1: I want to know which passages in Revelation support this? |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 7:41:33 GMT -6
In the sheep and goats judgment, I see nothing that indicates that people have to be living when this takes place. He can place His church through the ages on His right: either alive after death and resurrection or alive having never died. I expect these verses to apply to me, and I don't expect to still be alive when He comes. I do expect to resurrect and be included in this, just as I expect the believers killed by the angel to resurrect and be included in this.
Here is the excerpt from Matthew 25 if anyone wants to read it here:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 7:43:56 GMT -6
Following this conversation, and just like all have been rereading Revelation to the point of almost having it in memory, at least the topics of the chapters. I have a deep question in regard to this comment by witness1 : I want to know which passages in Revelation support this?
The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Revelation 9:20-21The remnant is protected from being killed in these plagues, so they are not included in this statement of "the rest of mankind." But everyone else at this point in time worships demons. |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 22, 2018 8:19:32 GMT -6
Post Options Great question. Why is there even a distinction? Did not Jesus die FOR ALL? ?Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.Rom 5:12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.2: 5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.and from Rvelation at the end of the Book 16“I, Jesus, havefor the chu sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”Before many start calling me a replacement theologist, I ask, what is the purpose of Revelation? It begins with a dissertation about the churches, which include synagogues. In these warnings and concerns of Jesus, are similar verbages of judgments that we later see in the trumpets and bowls. Is an unsaved person going to even consider reading Revelation? Even the jew. From what I am told or have heard is that the modern day Jew stays clear of any New Testament stuff. So who is willing or would come across this Book and even want to study it? So I ask, what is the purpose of the Book? Is it not the Revealing of Jesus and the process of which He goes about to bring His Kingdom reign upon the earth? Reign with His "Eternal Church"? I used to take everything that people told me things were stated or meant in the Bible, especially Revelation because it is a tough read, and I trusted their interpretations. But when I started looking into it myself, testing the theories, prayerfully searching, there are things that I just don't understand where some draw certain conclusions. That's all. I will come before you as humbly as I can and will do so by asking more questions than making statements if that will prevent discourse. |
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 22, 2018 8:21:24 GMT -6
Where does it say this:
I totally see the reasoning on the "rest of mankind" verse, it is the remnant that I am trying to locate
|
|
|
|
Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 22, 2018 8:30:06 GMT -6
In the sheep and goats judgment, I see nothing that indicates that people have to be living when this takes place.
I agree here,
saw this from Peter,,
1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
3For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
4In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
I have often wondered, the Revealing of Christ is not for those who are alive at the time of this event. For certain we know that those who are asleep will rise first and then those who are alive and remain, for one thing. But also, Christ has the Keys to Death and Hades...He is in control of that, so even if you die apart from Christ, you are in His judgement. I am paraphrasing how I am understanding it.
“Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
editing to add and save post space:
@witness said this:God does not pour out the 7 bowls of wrath while His people are still on the earth
Can you define this term His people? I agree that the Believer/Christ-follower/One who answer His Call, is not destined for wrath. Would you equate the bowl wraths to this part of Rev 14
17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle.
18Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.”
19So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
20And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.
I ask this because throughout Isaiah we see many a reference to wine/grape/vine...and it seems there is a parallel to these Isaiah proclamations and Rev 14:19. What seems be before me is a wrath of those who are denying Christ as their saviour. The Rock hewn not from hands, the Redeemer, etc... It is worthy of a thread topic really.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on May 22, 2018 8:54:14 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 9:12:10 GMT -6
This doesn't give scripture to support the idea that the only people being separated are those who are alive at the time of His coming. EDIT: This article says quote: "All those on earth at that time will be brought before the Lord, and He will separate them 'as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats'." But we come back to earth with Jesus, do we not? And those believers killed during the tribulation come back to life on earth, do they not? So what I am saying does not disagree with this article since I say that all believers will either return with Jesus or resurrect before this separation happens. Saying that those on earth will be brought before the Lord doesn't mean they don't die first. |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on May 22, 2018 9:17:15 GMT -6
Where does it say this: I totally see the reasoning on the "rest of mankind" verse, it is the remnant that I am trying to locate I'm sorry... I see the disconnect now. I see the "remnant" as the 144,000. The 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of chapter 7 and are protected from the plagues. We always say there is a "Jewish remnant" who is protected because we know there must be one, but do we identify them as one of the groups in Revelation? I think they are the 144,000. It is these who are blameless and follow the Lamb, and I think it is these who will repopulate the kingdom, restoring the Kingdom as it was meant to be. |
|
?