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Post by witness1 on Feb 5, 2018 14:00:32 GMT -6
It is not possible to buy this book in America, but there is a copy at a library in Tennessee. My husband said he will try to do an inter-library loan for me, but I'm sure that will take some time. In the meantime, I'll see what I can find about this idea online. I think it's worth looking into! That's good news. I'm trying to get a copy of this book, too. But it seems to be rather difficult. Just contacted KJC via his website directly. I think his book may give some interesting answers. Just wondering, why there is so few information on this topic on the web. Please let me know if getting a book directly from him works! And I think there isn't much on this because the traditional model is so widespread that no one studies alternatives. And I think the Lord has caused these things to be sealed to the end. If this idea happens to pan out and turns out to be true, we are seeing it now only because He is choosing to show it to us. And notice that I say that with an "if". I'm not convinced myself that the tribulation is only 3.5 years. I think it would be abundantly merciful if it were only 3.5 years! But He is also completely Just if it's 7. Something to continue to study though! What is everyone thinking about Revelation 11:1-2 being a metaphor for the true church and that the true church will be protected after scripture measures our hearts? I haven't seen any convincing counter arguments yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 14:22:05 GMT -6
witness1 , I am quite sure, that Chuck Missler recently did an interview, where he clearly spoke of a 3.5 year tribulation. Will post a link, if I manage to find it again. Just PM'ed you 😉
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 6, 2018 17:52:39 GMT -6
I think America will be destroyed by that point. Hi Witness1, I would agree that the USA is ancient Babylon. However, I disagree that it will be destroyed by that point. Revelation indicates ancient Babylon will not be destroyed until almost the very end (chapter 18) and many sequential things have to happen beforehand. So, if the USA is the AC's hub, I'm sure he will ensure it's still a functioning country, even if it's in shambles.Beginning with the rapture, our military will be wiped out. More than likely the majority of the current USA military will be replaced by the AC's own UN "peace keeping" operatives. Not that any of these would ever help the Jews. But, I'm not suggesting this. The AC is a demonically inspired individual and his armies will all be the same. When he turns on the Jews, however, he will be indwelt by Satan, himself, and not merely a human being with an antichrist spirit - and every hound of Hell will be let loose to help in his destructive endeavors. So, it will be much worse for the Jews with Satan acting in full force.
What I'm saying is this... while the AC is busy killing those left behind, and all who refuse to take the chip, for the first 3.5 years (I'm still thinking it's a 7 year timeframe as I can't make the numbers you've presented work in an organized way - so, still struggling with this one), the Jews worldwide will have plenty of opportunity to observe exactly what the AC does to the "Gentiles". As Gentiles are killed off, the Jews will start to figure out that they are likely his next target. This makes me think they will do everything in their power to try to prevent another Holocaust of their people. So, this would not necessarily be a "military" endeavor, but perhaps an independent one by some soft hearted individual(s). Remember the "Remnant" is called a remnant because it means a portion of or a few, not the majority. So, it's not like this is going to be some huge operation that everyone will be aware of. Most likely, it will be done under cover of darkness and secrecy.Add to the fact that America is more than likely Babylon, I don’t think America will be a place of refuge for Israel or anyone else. I'm not suggesting the USA will be "a place of refuge for Israel or anyone else," but there are also plenty of wealthy people - many of whom are Jews - living in the USA - who will likely not return to Israel after the rapture - who may have a heart and resources to help those in need and rescue them - or at least help them flee as far as possible. When I say this, the thought of Schindler in Nazi Germany comes to mind... someone who originally worked for the Jews, who had an epiphany and repented, while living a double life for his own safety and protection, but helped as many as he could.
It could also be an individual(s) who simply possess US citizenship and this is what the "Eagle" is in reference to. And if they flee the moment they see the abomination, that wouldn’t seem to give enough time to get a plane ticket. It's not like the rest of the world will be oblivious to what the AC is doing in the West for the first 3.5 years. I'm sure many, many Jews will be alarmed and disturbed by all of this - especially if they are listening to the two witnesses as they worship at the Temple (again, I'm still of the opinion it's a physical 3rd Temple, i.e., a building). Social media will be a thorn in the AC's side and hard to control. The Lord will ensure their message gets out one way or another. Equally important, I can't imagine they won't be warning the Jews in Israel of what's coming. So, more than likely people who live there will quietly and secretively be discussing this and trying to make contingency plans... I mean, wouldn't you? I think most people would. They may even get word that they, too, will be expected to take the RFID chip and this might be what sets off initial alarm bells. (Just conjecture here, but it does seem plausible.) Given this, they will probably be exploring every possible option long before the abomination sets himself up. I simply find it hard to believe they will be completely caught off guard.
But, even if none of what I've said happens... the Abomination appears to make himself "known" as a fraud some time before he actually sets himself up in the Temple because the Lord warns people to get out of dodge in advance and to "pray their flight is not in winter" implying they could be tipped off in the summer or autumn (when the weather is typically warm in Jerusalem and people are sleeping on their roofs because it is cooler outside than inside) - and thus, be prepared to leave quickly before winter is upon them. (I suspect those who have given themselves to Him and are among the Remnant will find a way to get the New Testament and will be reading His Words verbatim, going through it with a fine tooth comb for instructions and guidance to avoid being killed.) I am pretty sure Saudi Arabia is Israel’s only ally according to Bible prophecy. Whatever they have done in the past doesn’t matter. I'm not sure about Saudi Arabia. I'd need to see and study the Scriptures that verify this assertion. My understanding is that they will be helped by Jordan and "flee to the mountains" of Petra - similar to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah when Lot and his family fled to Moab before destruction came. This brings up another good point as well in that the Lord sent angels to Lot and his family to aid them in getting to their destination - so, He is likely to do the same again in His mercy with the Remnant.And I’m not necessarily saying that they go exactly back to Mt Sinai... I am saying God is taking us back to the story of Mt Sinai. He can confirm His covenant anywhere. But I submit that Revelation 12 should point us to Exodus. Perhaps, but I'm not sure about this. Will need to do more research on this one.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 6, 2018 18:52:07 GMT -6
I appreciate the time you've spent in writing this story. However there is not a lot to discuss since that's really what this is... it's a story of how things might unfold that is not backed by a lot of scripture, so I'm not sure how to discuss it with you. I just don't think that "being born on eagles wings" and a "flight" in winter is a hint that the Jews will fly to America. The abomination seems to me to be a sudden act that those watching will understand and have to react to instantly, to the point of not even going back to get a cloak. But maybe we can agree to disagree.
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Post by Natalie on Feb 6, 2018 19:05:04 GMT -6
Scripture that may show that they flee to Bozrah aka Petra
Micah 2:12-13
I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob,
I will surely gather the remnant of Israel;
I will put them together like sheep in a fold, (footnote fold is Hebrew word Bozrah)
like a flock in the midst of their pasture,
They shall make a loud noise because of so many people.
The one who breaks open will come up before them;
they will break out,
Pass through the gate,
And go out by it.
Their King will pass before them,
with the LORD at their head.
Isaiah 63:1-3a
Who is this who comes from Edom,
with dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel
Traveling in the greatness of strength?
"I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
"I have trodden the winepress alone..."
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Post by witness1 on Feb 6, 2018 20:08:34 GMT -6
I'm not sure about Saudi Arabia. I'd need to see and study the Scriptures that verify this assertion. My understanding is that they will be helped by Jordan and "flee to the mountains" of Petra - similar to the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah when Lot and his family fled to Moab before destruction came. This brings up another good point as well in that the Lord sent angels to Lot and his family to aid them in getting to their destination - so, He is likely to do the same again in His mercy with the Remnant.
I do absolutely agree with you here though. I have been thinking about this... how is the remnant going to know what to do or where to go? The Lord must send someone to direct them. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 6, 2018 20:42:36 GMT -6
So now the question is whether Revelation tells us who might possibly aid the remnant to their destination. Will God just send angels to do this and He left that part of the story out of Revelation? Or is there a vignette in Revelation that suggests who will give this aid?
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Post by witness1 on Feb 6, 2018 23:26:53 GMT -6
These verses were recently brought to my attention which support my claim that the third temple should not be called the temple of God. Please consider the words of Jesus Himself and a passage He quoted from Isaiah:
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
38 See, your house is left to you desolate.
39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple.
2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." - Matthew 23:37—24:2
6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant-
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples." - Isaiah 56:6-7
We are these foreigners who love the name of the Lord. Our burnt offerings and sacrifices are our daily prayers in the house of prayer for all people. We will be accepted and taken to His holy mountain.
YOUR HOUSE is the temple, and Jesus says every stone will be throne down.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 7, 2018 1:38:57 GMT -6
I appreciate the time you've spent in writing this story. However there is not a lot to discuss since that's really what this is... it's a story of how things might unfold that is not backed by a lot of scripture, so I'm not sure how to discuss it with you. I just don't think that "being born on eagles wings" and a "flight" in winter is a hint that the Jews will fly to America. The abomination seems to me to be a sudden act that those watching will understand and have to react to instantly, to the point of not even going back to get a cloak. But maybe we can agree to disagree.  My apologies.
I would, however, ask that you not misquote me, as I never said the Jews would "fly to America" - just that they might be helped to flee by an American. This is a claim you've made twice now. Please reread my posts, as I did not say this. I believe they will flee to Petra as Scripture indicates.
Also, it's a possibility that the abomination is a sudden act, but I strongly believe the Jews will get wind of his plans during the High Holy Days in the Fall - when he tries to "tabernacle" with man as their god, imitating Christ's ultimate plan. Then six months will elapse before he is killed at Passover. This, to me, is why the Lord warns them not to wait until the winter to flee. In His grace and mercy He gives them a period of time to go into hiding, if they heed His warning.
Again, these are simply my thoughts. I could be 100% wrong. Take them for what they're worth or disregard them altogether. We can always agree to disagree as no one has all of the correct answers, except for God, Himself. "For now we see dimly..." but one day we will have perfect vision. |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 7, 2018 1:41:33 GMT -6
Scripture that may show that they flee to Bozrah aka Petra Micah 2:12-13 I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep in a fold, (footnote fold is Hebrew word Bozrah) like a flock in the midst of their pasture, They shall make a loud noise because of so many people. The one who breaks open will come up before them; they will break out, Pass through the gate, And go out by it. Their King will pass before them, with the LORD at their head. Isaiah 63:1-3a Who is this who comes from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel Traveling in the greatness of strength? "I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save." Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? "I have trodden the winepress alone..." |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 7, 2018 1:58:20 GMT -6
These verses were recently brought to my attention which support my claim that the third temple should not be called the temple of God. Please consider the words of Jesus Himself and a passage He quoted from Isaiah: 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" 1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." - Matthew 23:37—24:2 6 "And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant- 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples." - Isaiah 56:6-7 We are these foreigners who love the name of the Lord. Our burnt offerings and sacrifices are our daily prayers in the house of prayer for all people. We will be accepted and taken to His holy mountain. YOUR HOUSE is the temple, and Jesus says every stone will be throne down.
John's death occurred in approximately 90 AD, so the Temple he was told to measure is not this one, as it was already destroyed 20 years earlier, and there was nothing left to measure. Plus, the vision John was given was of a Temple far in the future, not one in the past.
Equally important, John was specifically told to measure the Temple that the Gentiles would trample on. No unsaved Gentiles will be in Heaven. They won't be raptured and if they die, they will go to Hell to await judgment. So, this has to be a reference to a 3rd physical Temple on earth, not one in God's Heavenly Kingdom.
Finally, we know the Lord surely has a Temple in Heaven, as He and The Father are sitting on thrones along with the Disciples - and we will one day be there with them casting our crowns before The King. As verse 6 (mentioned above) states, we will be brought to His Holy Mountain and will be made joyful in His House of Prayer.
Therefore, I think each passage refers to something different. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 7, 2018 7:27:58 GMT -6
butterfly5777, I am truly sorry for my snarky comment. It was unkind and uncalled for. Please forgive me.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 7, 2018 16:31:08 GMT -6
Thanks, Witness1, for your apology. I appreciate it. If I've said anything to offend you, please forgive me as well.
Again, I see this as a giant puzzle everyone is trying to figure out. It's not a competition. We have to hold on loosely to our positions and be willing to let them go if the piece doesn't fit and/or if someone can provide evidence that the piece belongs elsewhere or something else fits better. This isn't about cramming a square peg into a round hole. And, like I said, we all see dimly...
Having said that, I want to make a couple of corrections/clarifications to my earlier post.
1.) I mistakenly said John "died" in 90 AD.... what I actually meant to say is that the Book of Revelation is thought to be dated back to 90-95 AD. So, this would be the timeframe that he got the Revelation. To my knowledge, no one has actually come forward with evidence of the timing of his death. My mistake.
2.) Thinking further on the metaphor God used of the "great eagle with two wings" and "flight" being a reference to air travel, I discovered that the distance from Jerusalem to Petra is about 281 miles, which would take 6 hours to drive by car, and 101 miles to travel by plane. So, anyone who delays their exit out of the city would not be able to get there quickly unless they went by plane, which would likely be more difficult. To get to Saudi Arabia, as you were thinking, it would be 1039 miles by car or 17 hours and 41 minutes. By plane, it would be 813 miles. Therefore, regardless of their destination, this seems to confirm the idea that when the Lord used the word "flight" he meant air travel as those who delay leaving immediately by car will likely not make it out given check points, inclement weather, etc.
One other thing to mention, along the lines of this metaphor, our group thought the "great Eagle" was representative of the US because the Eagle is the emblem of the US, the Senate and House of Representatives are frequently referred to as "two great wings of the same bird," and we are Israel's greatest allies (unbelievers included). Granted, the government of the USA will not be what we see today after the rapture occurs - but if the USA is ancient Babylon there will be some version of government left after the rapture, as the AC will likely need to use this as a cover to hide his deceptive plans while he lives a double life.
3.) The reason I said I thought the AOD sets himself up in the Fall, is because this is the timeframe when the Pharisees began to plot to kill Jesus. His death, however, didn't occur for several months. Likewise, assassinating such a high profile figure as the AC will take some time to plan - and is not likely to happen the minute he sets himself up and defiles the Temple. Unless of course, there's some crazed individual who just snaps and lunges at him and kills him with the sword in an act of impulsive rage. I guess that's always possible. Still and all, the Pharisees planned out Jesus' execution and the modern day Pharisees will likely do the same thing with the AOD. This wasn't something they did immediately. In order to mimic Jesus exactly, and deceive people into thinking he is God, the events surrounding his rule and death have to be along the same lines. He must die at Passover, lie in state for 3 days, and be indwelt by Satan to imitate Christ's resurrection from the dead - which we know occurs in the Spring. Therefore, in my opinion, it seems odd that God would tell the Remnant to "pray their flight is not in winter" as this will be 9 months later, and makes no sense whatsoever if they are to flee immediately. One would think he'd say "Leave immediately and don't wait until summer..." if Passover was the actual timing of the Temple being defiled. Thus, we come back to the High Holy Days in the Fall as the most likely timeframe for this event.
Hope this clarifies a few things. Again, I could be wrong. But, I think its at least worth considering - even if these ideas are discarded in the end.
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My apologies.