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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 14:54:58 GMT -6
No, I am not familiar with him. Tell us more! I think one should read the book. This is why I am asking. KJC is an Australian and now about 90 years old. You may google him. The book seems to be available only directly from his ministry in Australia... Thought, someone here had yet read it. Here is the link to the discussion www.dailycrow.com/daily-update-archives/revelation-12-2017/If you scroll a bit down to the comment section then you will find it. Or search within that webpage for "Kevin J. Conner" Sounds very interesting.... |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 14:59:12 GMT -6
But if you look at Ezekiel 38, God rescues Israel. And the woman in Revelation 12 flees and is rescued by God. Do you see these as 2 separate events? I am not understanding how Ezekiel 38 could be at the beginning yet Israel then be persecuted for 3.5 years. To me, Ezekiel 38 and Rev 12 are one and the same.
I see it as Israel is untouchable for 3.5 years under the protection of the witnesses, which further reinforces the cup of trembling.
1 The oracle of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:
2 "Behold, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of staggering to all the surrounding peoples. The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.
3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who lift it will surely hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will gather against it. - Zechariah 12:1-3
After the witnesses ascend to heaven, Israel is vulnerable again and Zechariah 14 occurs and Jesus comes back.
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2018 15:04:47 GMT -6
Ok, I see where you are coming from. I see them as two separate events. I will have to do some rereading and thinking.  |
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Post by klb on Feb 2, 2018 15:12:05 GMT -6
Thanks @stephan I found it and will go ahead and copy & paste here so others can read - I will have to look at this more in depth to see what I think!
Rev. Kevin J. Conner is a systematic theologian from Melbourne, Australia, who has made a very careful study of Eschatology (the study of last things) including the Books of Daniel and Revelation. He has written a book titled, The Christian Millennium, published by City Bible Publishing, Portland, Oregon, 2000. He has devoted a whole chapter to the study of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks Prophecy, Daniel 9:24-27. He takes you through that passage line-by-line, phrase-by-phrase, relying upon the whole counsel of God’s Word for Biblical interpretation. I believe he correctly states that the Lord Jesus Christ actually fulfilled the first half of Daniel’s Seventieth Week. So rather than a seven-year period of Tribulation closing out the Church Age as popularly taught, there really is only one 3.5-year period remaining to close out the Church Age before the Second Advent of Christ, when Jesus returns to establish His righteous rule and reign upon the earth for a 1,000 year period. There are eight distinct references to this final half a week (42 months, 1260 days, “times, time, and half a time”): Daniel 7:25; 9:24-27; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 11:3; 12:6; 12:14; and 13:5.
This “Church Age” is the parenthesis between the first advent of Christ and the second advent of Christ (the epiphaneia, #G2015, appearing). What I believe is significant with the Great Sign of Revelation 12:1-7 is verse 5b: “And her Child was caught up (#G726, harpazo, seized) to God and His throne.” When our LORD Jesus ascended to Heaven 40 days after His glorious resurrection, He was not seized. Those who are truly “in Christ” are a new creation in the New Man, the Child of Revelation 12. So I believe this speaks of the Rapture of God’s holy ones. Why else would He give such precious promises as found in Malachi 3:16-18; Luke 21:36; and Revelation 3:10? Although Rev. Conner believes in a post-tribulation rapture, I believe that our gracious God and King will keep us from that hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. Wouldn’t it be something if the Great Sign of Revelation 12 became a sign of confirmation that our LORD came for His Beloved and caught her up to her new Home in Heaven? Even so, please come LORD Jesus, please come!
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Post by stormyknight on Feb 2, 2018 15:23:30 GMT -6
pertaining to who "they" are, I've wondered this myself. I tried taking the words out in Greek separately, but the word "they" is not there. "...hetoimazō apo theos hina trephō autos..." or "...prepared of God that they should feed her...". The word "they" seems to have been inserted. lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?lemma=%CF%84%CF%81%E1%BD%B3%CF%86%CF%89&diacritics=off This website shows that "they" is just part of the word "trepho" as it also could be we/she/he. I'm thinking "they" would be Yahweh and Yashua, as the two witnesses communicating with the hidden jews might give away their location. I don't know, anything is possible with God and that would be a rather simple minded POV. |
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Post by fitz on Feb 2, 2018 16:11:04 GMT -6
The Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel ends on the mountains north of Jerusalem. I think it's over really fast. Some Israelis in the north will die, but God will wipe out the invaders in an astounding way, quite quickly (not sure if this is a super-natural event or if the IDF is given amazing Grace and a swift victory. I lean towards super-natural event). They do not make it any where near Jerusalem.
I see this war in the first 3.5 years....then the A of D at the mid-point. It may be this war that forces the treaty. Maybe?
I also think it could be this war that triggers the rapture. Or is it the rapture that triggers this war? LOL.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 2, 2018 21:30:22 GMT -6
I agree that these are not necessarily the same. We usually equate the time of the Gentiles with the rapture, but it may not be. Thank you for the scripture and filling in my holes @stephan . Connecting Luke 21 with Romans 11 though... Israel is blind and Jerusalem is trampled until the fullness of the Gentiles, whenever that may be. It seems like Luke 21 was fulfilled in 70 AD and the trampling continues to this day. So now we need to discuss Matthew 24 and how that relates to Revelatuon 12. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts!
Hi Witness1 and Stephan, just jumping in here on your conversation regarding "the fullness of the Gentiles" - here's my take:
This timeframe begins at the Great Comission (given on Ascension day 40 days after Resurrection Day/Feast of First Fruits) and the ends on the last day of the 1st half of the 7 year tribulation, after the last Gentile (Tribulation Saint) is killed. This explains the "trampling" of the Temple in 70AD, the fact that it continues to this day on the Temple Mount (although the Jews now have control of it again), and will continue for the 1st half of the 7 years when the AC makes a covenant with many and (more than likely) Muslims will be permitted to traverse the outer court. Thoughts?
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 2, 2018 22:30:01 GMT -6
Please look at this gem I just found in reading a commentary about the woman being given the wings of an eagle. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Revelation 12:14Some quick thoughts.... I'm wondering if the following could be a possibility...?
"The woman (Israel) is given two wings (airplane/air travel) of the great eagle (USA) so she might fly (escape with help of USA) from the serpent (AC in Israel) to wilderness (Jordan - an ally of both Israel and USA to hide in Petra/barren wilderness of rock and stone) where she will be nourished (Hidden manna and Living Water due to no food sources) for a time, times, and half a time (3.5 years until Great Trib over).
This also coincides with Jesus words to "make sure your flight is not in Winter." And it will be difficult for women who are pregnant and nursing at that time as there will be no resources for them. The commentary linked to Exodus 19: On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3while Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.” Exodus 19:1-6
This is a very interesting verse as well and there is likely a link between the two. But, I can't see how they will get back to the Wilderness of Sinai given the distance and the fact that they will be exposed in an open area where they can easily be killed. The Saudi's have this blocked off as a military zone with no access to the public. Also, they seem to vacillate back and forth in their loyalty. I don't see them putting Jewish interests above their own, but perhaps they will since the whole world will be so traumatized by all the AC has done. I feel like in every way imaginable, Revelation 12 points us at Mt Sinai. Exodus>>>Earth comes to aid (Red Sea in Exodus, earthquake of Ezekiel 38 in Revelation)>>>Covenant>>>Wilderness>>>Promised Land.
I feel like God makes a covenant with His people during the time they are in the wilderness of Revelation 12. I feel like the 144,000 will be led to the wilderness somehow (ideas:maybe by the 2 witnesses like Moses and Aaron led the Israelites, or maybe these are soldiers who retreat from the Ezekiel 38 army) where God will confirm the covenant He made in the beginning and now the 144,000 will be from all tribes and not only the Levites. I am questioning whether believing Israel also flees to the wilderness and then is raptured with the Gentile church a few days (weeks? months?) later like the Elijah/Elisha story. One thing I keep coming back to is the two loaves waved at Pentecost. They are both equal but separate from each other. One is presented to the High Priest and the other is divided among all the other priests (AKA the 144,000?). I am wondering if the Jewish church may go to the wilderness with the 144,000 as the woman who gave birth to the child. I am in no way saying the Jewish church isn't raptured... just that they may flee first and then be taken up like Elijah/Elisha. In my mind, the rapture of the Gentile church would occur at the same time. Although this Elijah/Elisha thing could just be the case with the witnesses/144,000 (hyperlink Unsealed article) and have nothing to do with the Jewish church. Please read this as me brainstorming. Do you mean the Remnant? When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me.” And he said, “You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so.” And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more. 2 Kings 2:9-12 Regardless of who exactly is in the wilderness and how they get there, I think God makes a covenant with whomever it is in order to fulfill the pattern He established as the path to the promised land!
EDIT: Take a peak at the Groundhog Day thread. Candlemas is the day celebrating Jesus' presentation at the temple. But the Jews also have a holiday that same day: "Jewish History 17, Shevat Purim Saragossa (1421) A noxious plot was brewing against the Jewish community of Saragossa, but they were completely unaware of the looming danger. They were spared, however, thanks to a handful of synagogues beadles who acted on a dream they all had. The resulting salvation on the 17th of Shevat was celebrated by Saragossan Jews, and dubbed "Purim Saragossa." A Hebrew Megillah (scroll) was penned, describing the details of the miraculous story. To this day, this scroll is read in certain communities on Purim Saragossa." I find it really interesting that these are celebrated the same day... one Christian and the other Jewish about being spared from looming danger. Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1341/groundhog-day#ixzz55vIdCAOQ |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 3, 2018 6:35:29 GMT -6
I think America will be destroyed by that point. Beginning with the rapture, our military will be wiped out. Add to the fact that America is more than likely Babylon, I don’t think America will be a place of refuge for Israel or anyone else. And if they flee the moment they see the abomination, that wouldn’t seem to give enough time to get a plane ticket.
I am pretty sure Saudi Arabia is Israel’s only ally according to Bible prophecy. Whatever they have done in the past doesn’t matter.
And I’m not necessarily saying that they go exactly back to Mt Sinai... I am saying God is taking us back to the story of Mt Sinai. He can confirm His covenant anywhere. But I submit that Revelation 12 should point us to Exodus.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 3, 2018 10:31:23 GMT -6
2) What is the stick? Was this standard for measuring things? Why did it not say "measure to see how many cubits are in the house of God", or something similar? I believe the reed he uses to measure the those in the Temple is the Word of God.
3) Why does it say to also measure the people who worship there? How do you measure a person with a stick? To see how tall they are? My understanding is that this has to do with a number count, not a physical height of measurement.
If this were the case, I think it should say the people were "counted", not "measured".
Do you have a scripture to support that scripture is for the purpose of counting people?
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16
The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. Psalm 19:8-9
Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. John 17:17
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Hebrews 4:12-13
I have never seen a scripture to support that its purpose is for measuring a quantity of people. I think its purpose is to measure the heart of men.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 3, 2018 20:31:12 GMT -6
Now is the question of the abomination. I do not think the 3rd temple is the throne of God. I also do not agree that believers are the temple referenced in 2 Thessalonians. That argument falls quite flat as you say. So here I am throwing out an idea. It's a wild one. Me saying this out loud feels similar to when I told my unbelieving friend that, "I think I will disappear soon so here's a key to my house. Everything in it is yours." This is crazy. Yet we are about to enter into an age of miracles so I'm putting everything on the table. I read this theory online last fall when I was questioning the idea that the 3rd temple is God's throne and I was looking for another explanation. And you know what happens when you read online theories... hard to sift for truth. Yet here it is. The idea presented was that God's throne is in heaven. His temple, the place where He dwells, is heaven. We see this many times in Revelation... this vision of the temple/throne of God. The idea was that the abomination may be Satan sitting on God's actual throne in heaven.When I presented this theory to a real-life friend, she said she thinks the war in heaven in Revelation 12 is satan trying to take God's throne. Wow. Interesting connection if this is true. I still hold the idea that Revelation 12 gives us the picture on the front of the box. It tells us the picture we are trying to make- whether these blue pieces are water or sky. I could never make this idea of satan sitting on the throne fit with the traditional model because we have always thought the abomination occurred at the middle. But... this proposed interpretation of Dan 9:27 would mean that the abomination is at the beginning. And that does actually fit with Rev 12 as well as 2 Thess. Now, if Satan were to actually sit on God's throne for a moment, God would have to allow it. Could this be the Great Delusion God sends? Allowing heaven to be opened and earth to see this abomination? Is it crazy to think that we could see heaven opened on earth? It happens at the end of Revelation 11. This time, the ark of the covenant is seen inside the temple. Could it happen another time at the beginning to allow us to see this abomination? I know this is a wild theory! And I'm not holding this view tightly. Things may go down according to traditional thought and the temple of God may be the 3rd temple. But this does reconcile a lot of (what I perceive to be) holes. This is me saying, "Maybe that's a plane over there." Hi Witness1, wanted to respond to this particular idea... can't see how this would ever occur as God is not a created being, whereas Satan is. Satan does not have unlimited power, nor do any of the angels that would be fighting for him. God would never tolerate this. If this was the case, my next question would be ok, then where is God??? Sitting at Satan's feet? No way! |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 3, 2018 21:18:05 GMT -6
I agree that this is a pretty radical idea, and I made it clear that I'm not saying I necessarily believe this. But, if this were to happen, this would not have to mean that God was at Satan's feet. I am not saying that God would be giving His power to Satan even for a moment. God is powerful enough to be on the throne in reality while still allowing the delusion that Satan is on the throne for a moment. I don't want to make definitive statements about what God will and will not tolerate. He tolerated Antiochus Epiphanes standing in the holy of holies and did not put him to death. One would be tempted to say "God would never allow someone in the holy of holies without the necessary offerings for sin!" But for some reason He did.
I am tossing out this idea for now though. It is pretty radical and I agree it is quite an abomination to think that Satan would be on God's throne. (Of course then I can't help but wonder if that gives it more credit for actually being the abomination...) But I am going to continue seeking an alternative to the typical "defile the temple" form of the abomination because I feel like you can poke many more theological holes in that position than in this one.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 4, 2018 15:08:25 GMT -6
No, I am not familiar with him. Tell us more! I think one should read the book. This is why I am asking. KJC is an Australian and now about 90 years old. You may google him. The book seems to be available only directly from his ministry in Australia... Thought, someone here had yet read it. Here is the link to the discussion www.dailycrow.com/daily-update-archives/revelation-12-2017/If you scroll a bit down to the comment section then you will find it. Or search within that webpage for "Kevin J. Conner" Sounds very interesting.... It is not possible to buy this book in America, but there is a copy at a library in Tennessee. My husband said he will try to do an inter-library loan for me, but I'm sure that will take some time. In the meantime, I'll see what I can find about this idea online. I think it's worth looking into! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 0:31:04 GMT -6
I think one should read the book. This is why I am asking. KJC is an Australian and now about 90 years old. You may google him. The book seems to be available only directly from his ministry in Australia... Thought, someone here had yet read it. Here is the link to the discussion www.dailycrow.com/daily-update-archives/revelation-12-2017/If you scroll a bit down to the comment section then you will find it. Or search within that webpage for "Kevin J. Conner" Sounds very interesting.... It is not possible to buy this book in America, but there is a copy at a library in Tennessee. My husband said he will try to do an inter-library loan for me, but I'm sure that will take some time. In the meantime, I'll see what I can find about this idea online. I think it's worth looking into! That's good news. I'm trying to get a copy of this book, too. But it seems to be rather difficult. Just contacted KJC via his website directly. I think his book may give some interesting answers. Just wondering, why there is so few information on this topic on the web. |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 5, 2018 0:39:12 GMT -6
I agree that this is a pretty radical idea, and I made it clear that I'm not saying I necessarily believe this. But, if this were to happen, this would not have to mean that God was at Satan's feet. I am not saying that God would be giving His power to Satan even for a moment. God is powerful enough to be on the throne in reality while still allowing the delusion that Satan is on the throne for a moment. I don't want to make definitive statements about what God will and will not tolerate. He tolerated Antiochus Epiphanes standing in the holy of holies and did not put him to death. One would be tempted to say "God would never allow someone in the holy of holies without the necessary offerings for sin!" But for some reason He did. I am tossing out this idea for now though. It is pretty radical and I agree it is quite an abomination to think that Satan would be on God's throne. (Of course then I can't help but wonder if that gives it more credit for actually being the abomination...) But I am going to continue seeking an alternative to the typical "defile the temple" form of the abomination because I feel like you can poke many more theological holes in that position than in this one. |
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