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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 8:40:41 GMT -6
Hi butterfly5777 ! Thank you for the prompt to continue. I worked on a response the other day but grew frustrated and took a break, and when I came back to it, my work had been deleted somehow. Not sure if I closed the tab or what. So. Many. Tabs. So, here' try #2. First I will say that I no longer am so sure that the witnesses are during the first half. By the time they finish their testimony, the 2nd woe has passed. After that I think only the bowl judgments are left (still studying this), which seem to happen in rapid succession and do not take the span of 3.5 years. So I'm wondering whether they are actually in the second half? Anyway... still pondering that, but I retract the statement that this can't be a temple because the witnesses are at the beginning. But, having said that, yes, I am still seeing it as a metaphor. Which I usually do not take things metaphorically if it is possible for a passage to be literal, and it is certainly possibly to assume this passage is a literal temple. But I still can't get it out of my mind that the 3rd temple should not be called the temple of God. I can agree with the argument that 2 Thessalonians was about the current temple because it was still standing, but most scholars date Revelation in the mid 90s, which is after the temple was destroyed. Yet this is still called the temple of God, and I couldn't get past that. So applying some methods of Bible study, I looked at questions, observations, words in Greek, commentaries, and other passages of scripture. What emerged for me is a metaphor. Questions: 1) What is being measured and why? The outside perimeter of the temple? The location of the temple? To see whether it's square on its cornerstone? 2) What is the stick? Was this standard for measuring things? Why did it not say "measure to see how many cubits are in the house of God", or something similar? 3) Why does it say to also measure the people who worship there? How do you measure a person with a stick? To see how tall they are? 4) Why is this included in the section with the witnesses? Is it only because they will testify at the temple? Why the use of the word "AND" to begin verse 3? 5) If only the outside of the temple is trampled, are we supposed to assume that the inside altar will be left standing throughout the 42 months, if this is a literal temple? Is it protected from bombings and such during war? What does trampling mean? Observations: 1) The measuring is for the purpose of separating the inside and the outside. The altar vs the court outside. 2) It says nothing about cubits or any other unit of measure. 3) The outside is given to the nations who will trample the holy city for 42 months. This would imply that the inside is not trampled, whatever trampling means. 4) AND authority will be granted to the witnesses. This seems to link the witnesses to the measuring or the trampling in a way beyond mere location. So, let's look at the stick first. The word here is the word "reed". It is a long, straight, firm stick. Interestingly, one of the commentaries I read said that the Canon of Scripture is the reed! Ah, now we're getting somewhere. When you look up the word for " Canon", it is indeed the word "reed" used here. Perhaps a coincidence, but if this reed was in fact scripture, would that make sense? Tuck that away in the back of your mind as we proceed. Let's look at what we know about the temple and the divisions. The altar inside was the Holy of Holies. The priests could enter once a year if they were righteous. If they were struck dead, they had to be pulled out from the rope tied around their ankle. Then there were other divisions of the temple... men only, Jews only, and Gentiles on the outside. This verse only separates 2 locations though: the altar, and the court outside. The verse that comes to mind is: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28 After Christ, Gentiles and women are granted the same access to the altar as Jews and men. Now there are only 2 locations: you're in, or you're out. The purpose of the measuring is to separate the altar from the outer court. In my mind, the stick is not used to see how long or straight something is, but rather it is used as a line on the ground, separating the altar from the outside. It says "here is the line to enter the altar". Which side are you on? Now, we also know that the stick is supposed to measure the people who worship there. The "there" is the altar of God. So this sounds to me like some people are worshiping in the altar of God, and some measuring needs to take place to see if that is correct. So, which makes more sense: the reed is scripture measuring a line to enter the altar as well as measuring the righteousness of men's hearts, or the reed is a stick measuring how tall a person is? I don't see how a reed is supposed to measure a person unless the reed is scripture. The verse in my spirit when I came to this conclusion was: "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 Lest any man should accuse God of being capricious, He has given His word, and the word will determine the righteousness of men. It will split hairs to see who can draw into the altar and who can't. Of course we know that we can draw into the altar through the righteousness of Christ. Are there those worshipping at the altar who are not covered by His blood? I think we can look around and say yes. In fact, this is what many of us have been wondering: "Where is the line for the rapture? So many people profess to be Christians but don't have any fruit." Thankfully, this is not something we need to be concerned with. Scripture will split hairs and the reed will lay the line in exactly the right place. I very much see this as a metaphor. Scripture will determine exactly where the altar is and will measure those who worship in the altar. Those on the right side of the reed will be protected, and the others will be trampled. I ask you to consider this view! There are a few supporting scriptures I found, but I feel like they would be superfluous. I will add them in a follow up post if anyone wants me to. |
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Post by sog on Jan 30, 2018 14:28:50 GMT -6
Witness,
I see now where the verse that came to you is in relation to the verse you commented on in the Feb 2nd/Ground Hog day thread. Funny how God works to affirm thoughts between his followers. Like you said God certainly has something to say. He seems to say a lot, if only we would listen.
Very grateful for all the thought you have put into this. I too think the Revelation 11:1-3 scripture is a metaphor as you have stated. You are either in, or you are out. You either believe and accept Jesus as our savior or you do not. God will be measuring our heart/soul.
I also think there maybe a literal Temple. There is plenty of scripture to back that up as well, although not necessarily in these passages. I believe some of God's word can be both literal and metaphorical at the same time.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 15:15:04 GMT -6
I agree that there may be a literal third temple, but if there is, I'm not convinced the abomination will occur in the way we are expecting. I know people say there is plenty of scripture to back up a literal 3rd temple, but I have never seen it myself. I need to look into it if I have time. I think there may be some verses in the minor prophets, but I feel like the 3 main ones being used to support a literal temple are this one, 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and Daniel 9:27. Since I have seen ways to interpret these verses besides the traditional model, I feel like we should consider that things will play out differently than we are expecting.
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Post by sog on Jan 30, 2018 16:22:36 GMT -6
How about Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14
Matthew 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
The usage of the term "holy place" in other New Testament passages corroborate that it refers to the temple in Jerusalem (Acts 6:13; 21:28). If it was not already obvious by the term "abomination" that, whatever it is, it does not belong in God's temple, Mark confirms this:
Mark 13:14 But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
As mentioned above, there are rules specified in Moses' Law about what is allowed in the temple. Unless something is a holy object (like the ark of the covenant) or a holy person (like a priest), it "ought not be" in the temple.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 30, 2018 17:29:53 GMT -6
Thank you for the verses to look at! If you look at the 2 verses you mentioned in Acts, 6:13 and 21:28, both of these words were spoken by the Pharisees/Sanhedrin who were accusing Paul and Stephen. They were accusing Paul and Stephen of defiling the "holy place". Yes, they were talking about the temple, but a non-believer calling the temple "a holy place" and Paul using the term "temple of God" are 2 very different things in my opinion. In fact, the whole issue here is that Paul and Stephen were the ones who were worshiping rightly! They were being stoned for defiling "the holy place" of the temple. The "holy place" here almost seems sarcastic to me. Or maybe ironic is a better word than sarcastic. Like the "holy city" in Isaiah 48, not everyone who claims to worship in the holy place or the holy city do not truly understands what that means, at the peril of their souls. The Pharisees may have (falsely) called the temple the holy place (at this point the temple was no longer holy), but that doesn't mean that every holy place is the Jewish temple. Jesus said the reader needed to understand the holy place. This tells me it might be different than what we would expect it to be.
I confess I don't know exactly what the abomination will be or what the holy place will be. I just think Jesus wouldn't have said "Let the reader understand" if it were cut and dry. I think I gave a valid (although crazy) idea that it could be Satan sitting on the throne of God. It could also have to do with the ark of the covenant and some defiling of that, or it could be an abomination related to what I wrote above about Revelation 11 and those who worship in the altar but shouldn't be there. We will have to keep our eyes open and watch. But I do think we need to watch in a 360 degree view and not the one direction we have been looking.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 31, 2018 13:10:24 GMT -6
Hi butterfly5777 ! Thank you for the prompt to continue. Hi there! Thanks for your feedback. I will try to respond in the brief time I have. May not get to everything but will try.
I worked on a response the other day but grew frustrated and took a break, and when I came back to it, my work had been deleted somehow. Not sure if I closed the tab or what. So. Many. Tabs. Yes. I have yet to figure out the tabs! They are very confusing!!  So, here' try #2. First I will say that I no longer am so sure that the witnesses are during the first half. By the time they finish their testimony, the 2nd woe has passed.
My understanding of the two witnesses is as follows:
1. These are two men who are OT Prophets. The Lord clearly says they will "prophesy" for 1260 days.
2. Neither of these individuals has ever physically died. Both would have been taken to Heaven alive and will return in their physical bodies. Enoch and Elijah are the only two people in the OT that this can possibly apply to, who are also prophets.
3. Enoch was considered "a friend of God" and likely represents the Church whom Christ called "His friends..."
4. Elijah was identified by Christ, Himself, in the Gospels to be one of the witnesses. For this reason, I believe he represents the Jews, as he was under the Law, and they set out a place for him every Passover as they actively await his return.
5. They are considered 2 Candlesticks - a reference to the menorah which Christ used to depict the Church in the beginning of Revelation. This leads me to the idea of Pentecost, with the Church of Philadelphia being the middle candlestick that's raptured and 6 others that are left behind. This also gives a clue to the timing of their ministry. Pentecost usually occurs around May/June and if you calculate 1260 days from this month, you come to November/December - the time of the Olive Harvest in Jerusalem.
6. As "Olive Trees" the Lord gives an idea of the time in which they will be killed - Nov/Dec. When He says they will "give gifts and make merry" - I believe this is a direct reference to Hanukkah and Christmas.
7. Their ministry coincides with the opening of the first two seals and once they ascend to Heaven in their resurrected bodies the 2nd woe ends and the 3rd begins. So, their entire ministry, murders, and ascension are included in the 2nd woe.
After that I think only the bowl judgments are left (still studying this), which seem to happen in rapid succession and do not take the span of 3.5 years. The timing of the bowl judgments don't determine the length of the 3.5 years. They simply occur within it. So I'm wondering whether they are actually in the second half? At this point, the 144K witnesses take over and minister for the remainder of the great trib. There is no overlap between the two. Anyway... still pondering that, but I retract the statement that this can't be a temple because the witnesses are at the beginning. But, having said that, yes, I am still seeing it as a metaphor. Which I usually do not take things metaphorically if it is possible for a passage to be literal, and it is certainly possibly to assume this passage is a literal temple. Honestly, I can't see it being anything else. Nothing else fits all of the descriptions outlined in Revelation. But I still can't get it out of my mind that the 3rd temple should not be called the temple of God. Remember that the people who will worship there are not filled with the Holy Spirit. They are all under the Law. So, they will resume the same practices they had under the Torah - which included calling the Temple "The Temple of God". The Jews even call the 3rd Temple they want to build now by the same terminology. I can agree with the argument that 2 Thessalonians was about the current temple because it was still standing, but most scholars date Revelation in the mid 90s, which is after the temple was destroyed. Yet this is still called the temple of God, and I couldn't get past that. So applying some methods of Bible study, I looked at questions, observations, words in Greek, commentaries, and other passages of scripture. What emerged for me is a metaphor. All good practices! Questions: 1) What is being measured and why? The outside perimeter of the temple? The location of the temple? To see whether it's square on its cornerstone? I'm not sure why this matters. The people who will be worshipping there are Jews who will be following the Law. They will be the only ones allowed inside the Temple - as there will be strict rules as to who can enter it - all outlined in the OT. No one will be allowed inside unless they are a Jew. The outer court, which will be trampled on by the Gentiles, will most likely be given over to the Muslims to appease them, since they claim Abraham as their father. 2) What is the stick? Was this standard for measuring things? Why did it not say "measure to see how many cubits are in the house of God", or something similar? I believe the reed he uses to measure the those in the Temple is the Word of God.
3) Why does it say to also measure the people who worship there? How do you measure a person with a stick? To see how tall they are? My understanding is that this has to do with a number count, not a physical height of measurement.
4) Why is this included in the section with the witnesses? Is it only because they will testify at the temple? I assume because they will be witnessing at the Temple just like Christ did.Why the use of the word "AND" to begin verse 3? I believe the word "and" simply means God is giving separate instructions for what the witnesses will be permitted to do apart from everyone else. 5) If only the outside of the temple is trampled, are we supposed to assume that the inside altar will be left standing throughout the 42 months, if this is a literal temple? Is it protected from bombings and such during war? What does trampling mean? Yes. I think it will remain standing for the majority of the 2nd half and only be destroyed at the very end.
Trampling means they will have physical control over it - similar to the way in which the Muslims have guarded the Temple Mount for the last several years and Jews were not permitted to ascend it. Observations: 1) The measuring is for the purpose of separating the inside and the outside. The altar vs the court outside. Yes.2) It says nothing about cubits or any other unit of measure. 3) The outside is given to the nations who will trample the holy city for 42 months. This would imply that the inside is not trampled, whatever trampling means. 4) AND authority will be granted to the witnesses. This seems to link the witnesses to the measuring or the trampling in a way beyond mere location. So, let's look at the stick first. The word here is the word "reed". It is a long, straight, firm stick. Interestingly, one of the commentaries I read said that the Canon of Scripture is the reed! Ah, now we're getting somewhere. When you look up the word for " Canon", it is indeed the word "reed" used here. Perhaps a coincidence, but if this reed was in fact scripture, would that make sense? Tuck that away in the back of your mind as we proceed. See above. Let's look at what we know about the temple and the divisions. The altar inside was the Holy of Holies. The priests could enter once a year if they were righteous. If they were struck dead, they had to be pulled out from the rope tied around their ankle. Then there were other divisions of the temple... men only, Jews only, and Gentiles on the outside. This verse only separates 2 locations though: the altar, and the court outside. I don't believe they will be at the Alter. They will likely be in the most populated place - the outer court - where most people will see them and know who they are via live televised reporting of the area. You would never have cameras in the Holy of Holies. And the Word tells us the "whole world rejoices" at their demise. So, clearly with smartphone technology and social media their words and actions travel around the world quickly. The verse that comes to mind is: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28 After Christ, Gentiles and women are granted the same access to the altar as Jews and men. Now there are only 2 locations: you're in, or you're out. This is a reference to accessing Christ directly - and the Temple in Heaven - "come boldly before the throne of God". Not the 3rd Temple on earth. Try not to mix Scriptures that are only applied to the Church with those that are applied to the Jews once we are gone. The purpose of the measuring is to separate the altar from the outer court. In my mind, the stick is not used to see how long or straight something is, but rather it is used as a line on the ground, separating the altar from the outside. It says "here is the line to enter the altar". Which side are you on? I don't have an opinion on this either way. Now, we also know that the stick is supposed to measure the people who worship there. The "there" is the altar of God. So this sounds to me like some people are worshiping in the altar of God, and some measuring needs to take place to see if that is correct. So, which makes more sense: the reed is scripture measuring a line to enter the altar as well as measuring the righteousness of men's hearts, or the reed is a stick measuring how tall a person is? I don't see how a reed is supposed to measure a person unless the reed is scripture. Again, I think it measures quantity. The verse in my spirit when I came to this conclusion was: "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." Hebrews 4:12 Lest any man should accuse God of being capricious, He has given His word, and the word will determine the righteousness of men. It will split hairs to see who can draw into the altar and who can't. Of course we know that we can draw into the altar through the righteousness of Christ. Are there those worshipping at the altar who are not covered by His blood? I think we can look around and say yes. Don't get yourself confused. God warns His Remnant to flee to Petra when they learn the AC plans to set himself up in the Temple. God indicates they need to flee before winter - another clue to the timing of the death of the witnesses, when the Olive trees will be cut down. So, those who will be protected in the last half of the tribulation are not in Jerusalem worshipping at the Temple at all. Those worshipping there are lost souls - all having taken the RFID chip - or they would be killed by the AC.
We must remember that the Law is now antiquated because of Christ's death on the Cross. The Law can not give Life. Paul tells us it produces death. So, worship of the Law - regardless of whether or not it's in a physical building called the "Temple" is irrelevant. They are simply practicing a religious ritual. In fact, this is what many of us have been wondering: "Where is the line for the rapture? The rapture has to come first because the Restrainer must be removed for evil to be fully realized. As long as we're here the Holy Spirit will still be in play and good works will still be taking place. So many people profess to be Christians but don't have any fruit." This is true. And there is a serious warning about this in John 15 that those who do not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire. This is why I believe 6 of the 7 churches are not taken in the rapture. They are "Christian" in name only, but their lifestyle doesn't match their words and they aren't producing good fruit.Thankfully, this is not something we need to be concerned with. Scripture will split hairs and the reed will lay the line in exactly the right place. See answer to previous question. I very much see this as a metaphor. Scripture will determine exactly where the altar is and will measure those who worship in the altar. Those on the right side of the reed will be protected, and the others will be trampled. Again, see above.I ask you to consider this view! There are a few supporting scriptures I found, but I feel like they would be superfluous. I will add them in a follow up post if anyone wants me to. So my take (at this point, anyway!) is this:
1. Rapture of Church, removal of Restrainer occurs.
2. Two witnesses come at Pentecost and witness for 1260 days through Woe 1&2.
3. Witnesses killed in December (3.5 years into trib). Ascend to Heaven 3 days later. 2nd Woe ends.
4. 3rd Woe begins.
5. AC sets self up in Temple.
6. AC killed at Passover.
7. Lies in state for 3 days and 3 nights.
8. Comes back to life with artificial intelligence and indwelt by Satan - on Feast of Firstfruits.
9. False Prophet comes on scene at same time as 144K "sealed" - another reference to Pentecost.
10. 144K minister for remainder of GT.
11. Christ returns with Saints to fight battle of Armageddon at RH.
12. Judgment of Nations at Yom Kippur.
13. Christ "tabernacles" with man on earth and Millenial Reign ushered in at Tabernacles.
Curious as to your thoughts... Hope this puts some of the puzzle pieces in place.  |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 31, 2018 13:14:42 GMT -6
Thank you for the verses to look at! If you look at the 2 verses you mentioned in Acts, 6:13 and 21:28, both of these words were spoken by the Pharisees/Sanhedrin who were accusing Paul and Stephen. They were accusing Paul and Stephen of defiling the "holy place". Yes, they were talking about the temple, but a non-believer calling the temple "a holy place" and Paul using the term "temple of God" are 2 very different things in my opinion. In fact, the whole issue here is that Paul and Stephen were the ones who were worshiping rightly! They were being stoned for defiling "the holy place" of the temple. The "holy place" here almost seems sarcastic to me. Or maybe ironic is a better word than sarcastic. Like the "holy city" in Isaiah 48, not everyone who claims to worship in the holy place or the holy city do not truly understands what that means, at the peril of their souls. The Pharisees may have (falsely) called the temple the holy place (at this point the temple was no longer holy), but that doesn't mean that every holy place is the Jewish temple. Jesus said the reader needed to understand the holy place. This tells me it might be different than what we would expect it to be. I confess I don't know exactly what the abomination will be or what the holy place will be. I just think Jesus wouldn't have said "Let the reader understand" if it were cut and dry. I think I gave a valid (although crazy) idea that it could be Satan sitting on the throne of God. Yes. It will be the resurrected AC, who is indwelt by Satan, sitting in the Temple of God, demanding to be worship "as" if he is God. This is how the Temple is defiled. All those worshipping him will have taken the RFID chip or they would have already fled to Petra, died in natural disasters, or will be killed. The only people he will not be able to kill are the 144K Jews sealed with the Holy Spirit. This is what Jesus is warning people to understand.It could also have to do with the ark of the covenant and some defiling of that, or it could be an abomination related to what I wrote above about Revelation 11 and those who worship in the altar but shouldn't be there. We will have to keep our eyes open and watch. But I do think we need to watch in a 360 degree view and not the one direction we have been looking. |
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Post by kjs on Jan 31, 2018 16:56:44 GMT -6
butterfly5777These comments of yours -- are very judgemental..... 5. They are considered 2 Candlesticks - a reference to the menorah which Christ used to depict the Church in the beginning of Revelation. This leads me to the idea of Pentecost, with the Church of Philadelphia being the middle candlestick that's raptured and 6 others that are left behind. This also gives a clue to the timing of their ministry. Pentecost usually occurs around May/June and if you calculate 1260 days from this month, you come to November/December - the time of the Olive Harvest in Jerusalem.
This is true. And there is a serious warning about this in John 15 that those who do not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire. This is why I believe 6 of the 7 churches are not taken in the rapture. They are "Christian" in name only, but their lifestyle doesn't match their words and they aren't producing good fruit.Do you by chance feel you have "earned the right" to make such judgment calls? For example you say only the Philadelphia church will be raptured ........ Yet, the church of Smyrna had NO Negative thing said to it by the Spirit of God.... Seems this church had it "going on" and the only issue were they enduring severe persecution -- but you have the GALL to say they were Christian in Name only.... The only church pictured with multiple martyrs.... ================== You may need to re-read the seven churches in Revelation. If the whole churches were in danger of HELL Fire -- why was that not pointed out to them? Why were some promised crowns and such for enduring and returning to their first love. ------ As far as not producing "Good Fruit" Comment -- 1 Corinthians 3:15 makes clear that though an individuals works will burn (ie It was not Good Fruit) -- the individual is still SAVED! ============ Sorry, having such a judgemental attitude speaks more about the one having the attitude then it does about the group being spoken about. ============ Also, warning if you make such statements about any member -- in regards to their rapture status or salvation status .... you will be violating the few rules this site has.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 1, 2018 1:04:07 GMT -6
butterfly5777 These comments of yours -- are very judgemental..... Hi kjs - Thanks for your response and feedback. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusions you drew, but I meant no offense. I wasn't thinking of any particular person on this site (most of whom I've had no interaction with) and no other individual, for that matter, whether in the church, or out of it. So, your assessment is a bit confusing. 5. They are considered 2 Candlesticks - a reference to the menorah which Christ used to depict the Church in the beginning of Revelation. This leads me to the idea of Pentecost, with the Church of Philadelphia being the middle candlestick that's raptured and 6 others that are left behind. This also gives a clue to the timing of their ministry. Pentecost usually occurs around May/June and if you calculate 1260 days from this month, you come to November/December - the time of the Olive Harvest in Jerusalem.
This is true. And there is a serious warning about this in John 15 that those who do not produce fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire. This is why I believe 6 of the 7 churches are not taken in the rapture. They are "Christian" in name only, but their lifestyle doesn't match their words and they aren't producing good fruit.Do you by chance feel you have "earned the right" to make such judgment calls? I'm not sure what you believe, but I believe that every man deserves to go to Hell, myself included. Thankfully, due to the abundant mercy and grace of God, and His Son's shed Blood on the Cross as payment for the sins of every man, the Way has been made available to spend Eternity with Him. I praise God for this. I am not judging anyone as you have accused, nor do I believe I have "earned any right" - as we are called to lay our lives down for the Lord. I'm simply reading Scripture for what it says.
To this end, please note the following:1.) Church of Ephesus -
"Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because you have left (forsaken, walked away from, no longer following, apostasy) your first love. Remember, therefore, from where you have fallen (reference to original sin of pride and idolatry, which Adam committed in the Garden, and as a result died spiritually), and repent (confess your sins and turn from them, i.e., a call for the Prodigal to return to the Father), and do the first works (reference to salvation, as no other works matter without salvation). Or else, I will come to you quickly and remove your candlestick from its place (disciplinary action/loss or revocation of position as church; not a reference to the rapture) unless you repent."
"He that has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: to him that overcomes (repents and overcomes this active state of sin, humbles himself and returns, willingly submits to God and obeys His commands) I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." (Reference to the gift of Eternal Life which Adam lost in the Garden of Eden when he ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. All Born Again Christians already have the gift of Eternal Life and are already eating from this "Tree" as it is a metaphorical reference to Jesus Christ, Himself. Clearly this group doesn't have Eternal Life or Christ would not be offering to give them the "right" to eat from this Tree. Remember in John 15 He said, "I AM The Vine."
So, I do not believe this church is saved.
2.) Church of Smyrna -
These people are told that they will be imprisoned by people who claim to be "Jews" but are actually of the "Synagogue of Satan". (The implication here is that Smyrna will be made up of Jews who give their lives to Christ after the rapture - more than likely having been "provoked to jealousy" for missing the rapture - as the only people who worship in a "Synagogue" are Jewish. The "Synagogue of Satan" seems to be a reference to the Third Temple where the AC (Satan) will set himself up in the 2nd half of the Tribulation and all who worship there will be unrepentant Jews. The Remnant will NOT be welcome there and they will be persecuted in the same way the early Disciples were, which is why I believe Christ warns them in the Gospels to flee to Petra where they will be fed, cared for, and protected supernaturally, as the Hebrews were in the wilderness.)
"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He that overcomes (reference to maintaining the faith while facing death through martyrdom) will not be hurt by the Second Death. (Second Death occurs at the Great White Throne Judgment when unbelievers are cast into the Lake of Fire for their rejection of the Son of God. So, if these people are being promised that they will be spared this, then 1) they are not saved by faith in Christ to begin with, 2) this is the "good work" they must do to prove their allegiance to Him. Remember the Age of Grace will be over and the Law will be in play.
Again, this warning does not apply to Born Again Christians as they have passed from death to Life and from condemnation to grace when they received the gift of salvation through Christ. There is now NO condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. So, Born Again Christians will not face the Great White Throne as their sins have already been judged at the Cross.
Therefore, I do not believe this church is saved. They have to prove their love for God in this trial by laying down their lives and dying.
3.) Church of Pergamos -
Christ, or "He Which Has The Sharp Double Edged Sword," (i.e., The Word of God) speaks to this church about various things, but the MAIN rebuke He gives them is that they are participating in Satanism. First, they "dwell" where Satan's seat is located (again, I believe this is a reference to the Third Temple because this is where Antipas was martyred, so this is another reference to Jews in the Tribulation). Second, they hold to the "Doctrine of Balaam" - again a reference to Satanism. Third, they are practicing idolatry, not the worship of Christ - whereby worship of anything other than Christ is in effect worship of the Devil. Fourth, they are commiting sexual sin - and are therefore defiling themselves. Fifth, they are practicing the Doctrine of the Nicolatians (more than likely Catholicism or some other religious denomination).
In v. 16 He says clearly, "Repent or I will come to you quickly and fight against you with the Sword of My Mouth..." (This is a direct reference to Armegeddon when Jesus returns and smites them with the Word of His Mouth.)
He says He will give them 'hidden manna" to eat - a reference to The Bread of Life - which, again, Born Again Christians already have. So, only those who obey and flee to Petra will receive this 'Hidden Manna".
So, based on all of this, I don't believe this church is saved either. Therefore, they get left behind.
4.) Church of Thyatira - This church is practicing witchcraft, which is what Jezebel was all about. They are "tolerating" her demonic behavior, which Jesus calls "committing adultery with her". Notice she is cast into "Great Tribulation" and they are as well, unless they repent. How can this church be cast into the Great Tribulation if they have been raptured? And why would Christ rapture anyone who calls themself a Christian but who practices witchcraft??? Therefore, they are left behind.
Those who repent and overcome (i.e., get out of this behavior) are told to hold on until He comes. This "coming" is not a reference to the rapture, but to the Second Coming.
This church is promised the Morning Star - another reference to Christ. Born Again Christians already have the Morning Star... He is our Savior.
5.) Church of Sardis -
In v. 1 Christ tells this church they are "dead". I don't see how He would take them in the rapture if they are spiritually dead or dying. These people are calling themselves "Christians" - "a name that they are alive" - but their true spiritual condition is anything but. He also tells them He will "come upon them like a thief and you will not know the hour I will come upon you..." This is a reference back to the Unwise Virgins who lack Oil (Holy Spirit) and are told to watch for His return (Second Coming).
He also says there are a "few" who have not defiled their garments and they will walk with Him in white - which seems to say they might be taken in the rapture, but this statement is immediately followed by "He that overcomes will be clothed in white raiment (reference to a gown of salvation or a robe of righteous, which Born Again Christians already have) and his name will not be blotted out of the Book of Life (implying there is a potential that this could occur - which again is not possible for true Christians who are sealed with the HS - however, many Jews believe that they can have their names blotted out of the Book of Life.)
6.) Church of Philadelphia -
To start, Verse 7 lists off Jesus' Names, whom Born Again Christians worship. Verse 8 speaks of "An Open Door" - a reference to salvation through Jesus Christ. Jesus goes on to commend this group for keeping His Word and not denying His NAME despite their weakness (How do they do this? They rely on the Holy Spirit.) He goes on to discuss making their enemies come and bow before them... Then, He promises to KEEP THEM FROM THE HOUR OF TRIBULATION that will come upon ALL the world, to TRY them. (Churches 1-5 and 7 are all going to go through this "trial" period to test their sincerity and commitment.) He warns them not to let any man take their CROWN - proving they are already wearing it. Born Again Christians have the Crown of Life (and are hopefully working towards several others) and are told they will be made "a Pillar" in the Temple of His God - i.e., seated in Heavenly Places with Christ and will rule & reign with Him.
7.) Church of Laodicea -
This church is accused of being "lukewarm" matching the statement - "A double minded man is evil in ALL of his ways." Therefore, their worship and devotion is divided between following Mammon and God. God clearly tells us that "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil". They, too, need to "buy" from Him white raiment to cover their nakedness - implying they do not have the gown of salvation or robe of righteousness. And He says they are "blind" - a reference to their lack of understanding and hard heartedness. Finally, He is standing at this person's heart knocking to get in, showing He is on the outside of their heart and life.
The overcomer is granted permission to sit with Him on His throne. Born Again Christians are already seated in Heavenly places with Christ and all of the Disciples were seated on thrones in Heaven with gold crowns on their heads when John was raptured up to Heaven and given the Revelation vision.
So, I don't believe these guys are going in the rapture either.
Bottomline: Many, many people call themselves "Christian" - yet their lives don't bear witness to this claim and don't line up with the Word of God. God knows who is truly committed to Him and who is not. He's not a fool and He won't be mocked. Born Again Christians are not perfect, but their sins are covered in His Blood. They make up the Church of Philadelphia. The rest are likely just religious churches that are doing their own thing. Remember Paul, Peter, Jude, James, John, AND JESUS etc. warn us over and over again about apostates who infiltrate the church - a little leaven has the potential to leaven the whole lump - not everyone sitting in the pew next to you is necessarily Born Again. Not all "who call on the Name of the Lord will be granted access to the Kingdom." Didn't He say, "Many will say, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we not...?" And I will say DEPART FROM ME. I NEVER KNEW YOU." (KNEW - Consummation of marital relationship between Bridegroom and Bride of Christ)
We live in a time when the Jewish people don't believe in Jesus but think they have access to the Father. They don't. They're deceived. We have churches that think it's ok to abort children, sanction homosexuality, and do a whole host of other things. Are these people going in the rapture? I highly doubt it! And there are countless dead religions out their claiming to know "God," when many of them are nothing more than cults.
For example you say only the Philadelphia church will be raptured ........
Yet, the church of Smyrna had NO Negative thing said to it by the Spirit of God.... Seems this church had it "going on" and the only issue were they enduring severe persecution -- but you have the GALL to say they were Christian in Name only.... The only church pictured with multiple martyrs.... See above. ================== You may need to re-read the seven churches in Revelation. I've studied them for years with many individuals who are Biblical scholars - and have researched the Greek and Hebrew extensively. I didn't cover every detail here. It's just too much information and too long to type out. I may have missed some minor points, but for the most part, I think this is accurate. You may call this response prideful, it's not intended to be. I'm just relaying what I've learned through years of research, prayer, and confirmation from the Lord.
If the whole churches were in danger of HELL Fire -- why was that not pointed out to them? It was. Everyone of the 6 churches received an "If... then" warning. But, if these churches do not comply with His instructions they will face the consequences - which for all of them will be judgment... which will occur at the Great White Throne. Why were some promised crowns and such for enduring and returning to their first love. See above.------ As far as not producing "Good Fruit" Comment -- 1 Corinthians 3:15 makes clear that though an individuals works will burn (ie It was not Good Fruit) -- the individual is still SAVED! I did not mention 1 Cor 3:15 in my comment. I spoke of John 15:4-6 which states: "Abide in Me and I in you. As a branch ("Christian") cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the Vine (Christ), neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the Vine and you are the branches. He that abides in Me and I in him will bring forth much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in Me, he is cut off as a branch, and withers. Men gather them together and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Remember that many of the "disciples" turned and walked away... and Jesus said to the rest..."Are you going to leave Me, too?" Unless those guys repented and turned around they ended up lost in the end. ============ Sorry, having such a judgemental attitude speaks more about the one having the attitude then it does about the group being spoken about. I'm sorry you took my post that way. I think you misunderstood what I was saying and where I was coming from. ============ Also, warning if you make such statements about any member -- in regards to their rapture status or salvation status .... you will be violating the few rules this site has. I never made any statement about any member on this site. Like I said when I started this post, I have interacted with no more than 2-3 people here. So, I'm not sure what you are talking about. As for violating any rule, please state the specific rule you believe I have violated when I am simply explaining Scripture. If I've done what you are claiming, I will apologize. But at this point, I do not believe I've done anything wrong, nor do I believe I deserve this attack. I'll leave it at that.
Thanks again for your feedback. God bless. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 4:06:33 GMT -6
So it’s the middle of the night and I just took a peak on here... can’t write a long response now unfortunately. butterfly5777, you did an excellent job explaining the churches and gave some perspectives I haven’t considered. It sounds like when you said 6 of the 7 churches will not be raptured that you were stating what you believe to be Biblical fact and were in no way questioning any individual’s salvation, let alone mine. I did not think you were saying that in your first post, although I probably would have asked you to explain more about the churches because I’ve never heard that position. But at first glance, you’ve given a lot of perspective here. I always wondered why the church at Smyrna said “Jews”, and you’ve given a good explanation. I look forward to going through your explanation more carefully in the morning... I do agree that not all churches are raptured, for some of the reasons you’ve stated, but I wonder if it may be more than just the one. Will have to read what you’ve written more carefully and ponder for a bit. One other gem that jumped out is when Jesus said “I will throw her into Great Tribulation” to Thyatira. We have always separated “tribulation”, and “great tribulation” as being the 2 halves of the 7 years, but if these are indeed talking about the rapture, would “great tribulation” be the whole thing? Looking forward to looking at this is the morning as well. butterfly5777 , I hope you got some sleep last night. Not sure what time zone you’re in, but it had to be pretty late when you finished this excellent post. You’ve given us a lot to think about, and after we’re gone you’ve left a lot for those left behind to consider. So although I wish you didn’t need to feel attacked to get to this point, I am grateful for all you have written and explained. I think the moderators have grown tired of having to deal with a lot of contentious, judgmental, “I’m getting raptured and you’re not” people on here (and a lot of people like myself who are pushing some buttons) and may be quick to respond in accusation when a simple request for explanation would have been in order. kjs , I respectfully submit that we need thoughtful people here who are willing to engage and discuss the scriptures and not just post earthquake updates, although that is valuable as well. I believe the moderators are capable of this but are tired, and with good reason. Newer people like myself and butterfly5777 are still ready to dialogue, and I think this is a good thing, and I don’t want to scare my new friend away 😊. I hope God blesses the sleep of you both and that you both have a good day tomorrow! I am looking forward to a loving, engaging discussion! |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 5:12:12 GMT -6
Well, now it seems like I’m awake for good. So I’m going to go ahead and post what I’ve been thinking about the last hour and perhaps return to the churches discussion this afternoon. Bear with me because these are puzzle pieces that I want to show you and then show how I think they fit together.
I agree the witnesses are in the 1st half. Nothing else makes sense. I do think there is not much left as far as the tribulation goes after the third woe, and it does seem odd to me that so much would happen in the first half and so little in the second half. SO, since the witnesses are in the first half, whoever claims that Rev 11:1-2 is about a physical temple needs to bear the burden of proof as to how this temple is going to get built fast enough for the witnesses to show up there. Ezekiel 38 is happening soon and the earth is going to come to the aid of the woman (Rev 12:16, Ezekiel 38:18-19). If something in Rev 12:16 occurs, then the tribulation has begun and the witnesses will be witnessing. But if Rev 11:1-2 is NOT about a literal temple, things can begin at any time (and isn’t that the argument of imminence anyway...?).
We can trust God to act in the future in the way He acted in the past. He has given us a precedent. I don’t think we should give Satan the same predictability. What is the precedent God gave us? What is His grand story? The big story is this: slavery>>> plagues on captors >>> Exodus>>> earth comes to her aid (Red Sea)>>> COVENANT>>> desert wandering>>> PROMISED LAND. He gave us that story as a picture of the end. The promised land of Exodus has always been a mere shadow of the promised land to come. In the end tribulation, we have all parts of this story in place. Slavery to sin. Plagues. Earth saves Israel (earthquake this time), protection in the wilderness, and the promised land. But then you know what we do? We leave out the most vital, beautiful part, and that’s God’s covenant with His people. And then we claim the devil is the one who makes the covenant. We give him the credit of acting in the future the way he acted in the past. “Oh, Antiochus defiled the temple and that’s exactly what the AC is going to do.” Come on. The devil is fighting for the world here... you don’t think he came up with another plan? But even that is besides the point. The point is that we are missing the COVENANT part from the end of the story, and the covenant is huge. Hmmm... where in prophecy can we find some mention of a covenant? Oh, how about that one in Daniel 9:27 that we gave to the AC and not to God? The one that just says “he” so it’s a little tricky to understand? I know I sound snarky and that’s cause I haven’t slept at all and I’m trying to get my point across. I don’t mean to attack any person. In fact, I think God allowed us to believe this whole story so dispensationalists had a leg to stand on, but I submit that things really will be sealed until the end. And I mean the very end. Like “oh shoot... Ezekiel 38 is about to happen and there’s not a temple... now what?” the end. And that’s where we’re standing now. We are Bereans because we look at what’s happening and then use it to make sense of prophecy... not the other way around.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 5:35:36 GMT -6
The original theme of this thread is whether it is possible that the countdown has already begun. And I say it absolutely has, but not in the way we think. We are trying to find 7 years here at the end. And God knew the dispensationalists are the ones who would be looking for His return, so He planned the 7 year eclipses and the 1260+1290 fitting in this timeframe to begin and end of fall feast days... the whole 9 yards. All so we would follow things as He revealed them to us. But now He has taken us way past the window where things are cut and dry and make sense and so we’re all trying to think outside the box. But not too far outside the box... we cling to the 7 years and the abomination in the middle and the literal 3rd temple and the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. And all of these are the reasons dispensationalists look foolish to the covenant world and why they are laughing at us. But even our own model doesn’t make sense with what we see around us, so we ask provocative questions wondering if a secret countdown has begun that we don’t know about. And I am not poking fun my friend butterfly5777. I have been asking this too but didn’t ask in this way. My thread was, “which assumption was wrong?” We know some previous assumptions need to be thrown out. But I don’t think a secret clock started ticking last year that we don’t know about. What I think, and this is way outside the box, is that there is a different abomination and the tribulation is only 1335 days. I think God makes the covenant. I think He removes the daily... the offerings inside the altar that are protected FOR half of the week while the outer court is trampled. So where did the other half of the week go? @stephan pointed out it could have been Jesus’ Ministry from baptism to Golgotha. 3.5 years. Is there any scripture to back this up? Covenant theologians might say we have no good reason to believe there is a gap in Daniel at all. But Jesus gave us a beautiful clue when he stopped reading from the scroll in the middle of Isaiah 61:2. The scripture even begins with His anointing (baptism) for the first half (61:1) and then begins with the day of the Lord’s vengeance for the second half (61:2b). He showed us where things “cut off”, and they cut off after 3.5 years! This is what’s big... 1335 days from today is Shimini Atzeret 2021. Are things beginning today? Maybe or maybe not. I think the other things I’ve posted validate that 1335 total days are worth considering, even if the days don’t work out the way it looks like they could. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 6:07:59 GMT -6
Other pieces that fit with a 1335 total tribulation:
1) Revelation 12 only seems to mention 3.5 years yet also seems to give a timeline of the entire tribulation. I think the Rev 12 sign was perhaps for a day count or something but more importantly to give us a starting point: a picture of the puzzle we’re trying to make.
2) Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, - Revelation 2:22
Notice the “great tribulation”. This is the same as Jesus’ words in Matthew. Our traditional 7 year model says the great tribulation is the last 3.5 years. But it sounds to me like the whole thing is “great tribulation”.
3) Like I said, not much happens after the Witnesses finish their testimony. There obviously is some time left, but there would be a big length of time with nothing happening if there are still 3.5 years and only 1 woe.
4) It seems like there will be people left living who did not take the mark of the beast yet are also not believers. These are the people who populate the kingdom and whom we heal with the leaves of the tree in Rev 22:2. Surviving for 45 days without being able to buy or sell sounds hard enough... 3.5 years sounds impossible. Remember there has already been severe famine at this point... it’s not like people have huge stockpiles of food to last a long time.
5) No one has ever been able to explain the 1335 in any other way. It has always been the piece that didn’t fit. Yet it’s the last verse of Daniel... it needs to fit!
6) One interesting, although minor, corollary is that God has been drawing our attention to the numbers 153 and 531 through the earthquakes and eclipses. Any chance this is confirming the 1335?
Please friends, think on these things with me. My pastor, a covenant guy, laughed in my face when I told him about the Rev 12 sign. And we are friends. He got angry when I told Him that God was speaking to us and we needed to throw out our preconceived ideas and see what He might be saying. My friend thought I was accusing him of not giving due diligence to the scriptures and arriving at his model of the end flippantly. On the contrary, he is a faithful and brilliant scholar. But I submitted to him, and I submit to you as well, that these things have been sealed and we cannot understand them fully until they begin to unfold. What is unfolding now is not peace and a temple... it’s war. Thankfully God comes to the aid of Israel and protects those who worship rightfully in the altar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 6:16:31 GMT -6
Just one more thought, which came to my mind:
Lets assume, the 70th week gap theory holds some water, I'm absolutely not sure about and looking for answers.
Where then do the 2 witnesses come into play?
If we assume, the 2 witnesses appear in the first halve, and the first halve was finished with the cross, then who were the 2 witnesses?
I don't see any really fitting figures. Consuming fire from their mouth....? Hm....
This leaves only the two options, that the 2 witnesses appear either within the "gap" or in the second halve.
Any thoughts or arguments are greatly appreciated. I guess, this is just a brainstorming thread.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 6:37:55 GMT -6
Yes! Thank you for brainstorming! I was not clear (again!). It’s confusing now that I’m suggesting the first half of the week already happened yet I also said the witnesses are the first half. I should have said that the witnesses are at the beginning of the tribulation and not the end. The count of the tribulation begins when they begin their testimony.
What I am saying is this:
First half of Daniel’s week: Jesus
Second half of Daniel’s Week: 1335 days of tribulation
Within the 1335 days are the 1260 days of the Witness’ testimony and their death and resurrection. Then the abomination that makes desolate is set up at day 1290 (Daniel 12:11), and then there are another 45 days where people must survive without the mark.
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