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Post by mike on Jan 22, 2018 8:00:27 GMT -6
OK witness1 , at first reading this concept I thought "yep it sounds crazy but think about a little and see if it fits perspective". My thoughts centered on what many believe the abomination of desolation to be, a third physical temple, where sacrifices of cow, sheep, doves, rams, and so on are possibly going to happen, and the AC sits there... Side note - ever really think about that for a minute? Slaughtering of animals in a sacrifice. When you hear of any type of "religious sacrifice" happening whether it be satanic, pagan, or anything else dont you get an odd feeling?...Sorry back on my point now. You said And I thought Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
If perhaps God allowed it, which I dont think is possible, but even for a split second, would it still be like the mirror image of the tabernacle of what Moses was shown? Just crazy thoughts to add to your crazy thoughts  Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. |
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Post by kjs on Jan 22, 2018 9:17:30 GMT -6
Also, if we look at history, the first abomination was the sacrifice of a pig on the altar done by someone who shouldn't have been there. I think a statue of Zeus or Jupiter was also set up. I think that is where most interpret that it will be a man doing something like that again. I don't know a lot about the history of when the temple was destroyed in 70. Was there an abomination like that then also? There are some theories floating around that just before the fire was set to the temple in 70AD -- there was idols and flags set up in the temple by the soldiers. However, Josephus (who supposedly was an eye witness to the entire event (and was of Jewish descent) ) makes no reference to idols or flags being raised. He does mention the fire got out of hand and ended up melting all the gold -- which dripped between the stones -- causing the soldiers to rip apart to the stones to reach all the gold..... |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 22, 2018 9:47:29 GMT -6
Thanks for chiming in mike ! Unfortunately I'm not sure what you're talking about with Moses and the mirror image. It sounds like this is something I should know... would you please tell me more? So I have been thinking about this a lot lately. "Self, how could you post something so ridiculous in public like that? Let's keep your craziness a little more concealed shall we?" I was questioning how I could have ever thought that idea was worth a second glance. Not that I am anywhere close to a glorified state yet, but I usually have decent discernment when it comes to truth in scripture- at least when I see others' thoughts in black and white. (Satan has twisted scripture in my own head for a time though.) So, even though I said I would leave it alone, I went back and found the original place I read this idea. I hadn't read it since last October, so it was interesting to read it again. And actually... I still think it MIGHT have merit. So I'm beating a dead horse and bringing this back up. It may at a minimum be interesting fodder for conversation since it seems there isn't a lot to talk about right now I feel like I need to read this several times to sort through it all. But he incorporates Rev 17:10-11 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." He says that the great kingdoms of the past, including Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanes were the same fallen angel. We have known that the Nephilim will play a role in this somehow- perhaps it's a little more subtle than aliens and nephilim present as fallen angels indwelling people. He also discusses all of the other important end-time passages and how they fit with his idea: The Great Delusion is one that would deceive even the elect, if possible. I don't think I would be deceived by aliens coming down. Wouldn't we all know in an instant that Satan was trying to deceive us? But heaven being opened and a world leader being shown in the throne room? That I think I would be tempted to believe. This article argues that THE ENTIRE WORLD will worship the antichrist. There would need to be a pretty powerful reason for ALL nations to worship this man. If the traditional dispensational model were to come to pass... which says that the antichrist will make a covenant with the Jews and they will receive him as Messiah (because he lets them build a temple) until he commits the abomination and their eyes are opened... that does not explain how the other nations come to worship him. Why would Americans, for example, worship the man who allows the Jews to rebuild their temple? There must be another layer to the power and convince-ability of the antichrist. He brings up the fact that Antiochus stood in the Holy of holies and did not die. For whatever reason, God allowed him to stand there for a moment. This ministry believes Assad of Syria is the antichrist, however I feel like the ideas presented here could be applied to any person. The conclusion here is that there is not a pre-trib rapture, which I disagree with. I feel like he comes to this conclusion through the belief that scripture does not support the building of a 3rd temple and the traditional dispensational model of the abomination. I agree with these conclusions as far as I have studied them, but I need to look at the scripture used to support the building of a 3rd temple. I need to read more about why he believes there isn't a pre-trib rapture and how he came to that conclusion, if such an argument is presented. But through the other things I have studied... the 3 harvest feasts (which I still need to share with you!), the story of Rachel and Leah and God's 2 brides being Israel and the church, the scripture supporting that the 24 elders MUST be the raptured church who are safe in heaven when all of this goes down... I feel like a pre-trib rapture is still very valid. The way this fits together in my mind is that the abomination occurs at the beginning of the tribulation simultaneously with the rapture. Daniel 9:27 is about God renewing/strengthening His covenant with Israel in an "undoing" of Mt Sinai after they flee from the armies surrounding them (like the Exodus from Egypt)**. The "daily" taken away (the word doesn't say 'sacrifice' but rather 'daily' which was assumed to be a sacrifice) is the daily prayers of the saints which are taken away FOR half the week. The world is deceived because they see heaven opened and this world leader come down, who tells them that he has the ability to go back and forth to heaven and earth but has decided to stay on earth as the Messiah to save the world. The people who all just disappeared from the earth are those who would get in the way of his plans/those intolerant, hateful Christians, etc. Please pray about this and see what you think. I think there is a pre-trib rapture and therefore this doesn't really affect us either way, but this may have serious implications for our loved ones left behind. I have felt compelled to unravel as much of this as possible so as to leave a picture for others. Would appreciate your thoughts! www.isawthelightministries.com/templeStrongDelusion.html**If the 144,000 are supposed to be male virgins, this could very well be the armies of Israel who would be made up of young men. These armies of young men may flee from the dragon surrounding them in war, God comes to their aid, and they stay in the wilderness being nourished. |
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Post by mike on Jan 22, 2018 9:57:38 GMT -6
I am sorry witness1 - Exodus 25 explains the details of the Ark, Mercy Seat, Shewbread & Lampstand then in verse 40 the Lord says " And look that thou make [them] after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount." I suggest a quick read of Exodus 25 then Hebrews 9 |
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Post by kjs on Jan 22, 2018 14:00:31 GMT -6
**If the 144,000 are supposed to be male virgins, this could very well be the armies of Israel who would be made up of young men. These armies of young men may flee from the dragon surrounding them in war, God comes to their aid, and they stay in the wilderness being nourished. Israel is one of only a few countries in the world with a mandatory military service requirement for women. with women comprising over 20% of Israeli forces in 1948, and 33% of all IDF soldiers and 51% of its officers, in 2011 Shows women are a main component within the Israel military..... I believe (with no facts to back it up) the 144k will come from the traditional Jewish schools (which strictly forbid women of even entering)..... |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 24, 2018 19:21:16 GMT -6
Now is the question of the abomination. I do not think the 3rd temple is the throne of God. I also do not agree that believers are the temple referenced in 2 Thessalonians. That argument falls quite flat as you say. So here I am throwing out an idea. It's a wild one. Me saying this out loud feels similar to when I told my unbelieving friend that, "I think I will disappear soon so here's a key to my house. Everything in it is yours." This is crazy. Yet we are about to enter into an age of miracles so I'm putting everything on the table. I read this theory online last fall when I was questioning the idea that the 3rd temple is God's throne and I was looking for another explanation. And you know what happens when you read online theories... hard to sift for truth. Yet here it is. The idea presented was that God's throne is in heaven. His temple, the place where He dwells, is heaven. We see this many times in Revelation... this vision of the temple/throne of God. The idea was that the abomination may be Satan sitting on God's actual throne in heaven. When I presented this theory to a real-life friend, she said she thinks the war in heaven in Revelation 12 is satan trying to take God's throne. Wow. Interesting connection if this is true. I still hold the idea that Revelation 12 gives us the picture on the front of the box. It tells us the picture we are trying to make- whether these blue pieces are water or sky. I could never make this idea of satan sitting on the throne fit with the traditional model because we have always thought the abomination occurred at the middle. But... this proposed interpretation of Dan 9:27 would mean that the abomination is at the beginning. And that does actually fit with Rev 12 as well as 2 Thess. Now, if Satan were to actually sit on God's throne for a moment, God would have to allow it. Could this be the Great Delusion God sends? Allowing heaven to be opened and earth to see this abomination? Is it crazy to think that we could see heaven opened on earth? It happens at the end of Revelation 11. This time, the ark of the covenant is seen inside the temple. Could it happen another time at the beginning to allow us to see this abomination? I know this is a wild theory! And I'm not holding this view tightly. Things may go down according to traditional thought and the temple of God may be the 3rd temple. But this does reconcile a lot of (what I perceive to be) holes. This is me saying, "Maybe that's a plane over there." I don't see how this can be possible when Satan was defeated at the Cross and even the demons tremble in His Presence. This would defile Heaven altogether. What would then cleanse it? Christ's Blood has already been shed. He can't die again. My understanding is that His 1st ascension was to cleanse Heaven of the defilement Satan created there to begin with, before he and his demons were cast to the earth, not just to cleanse us and cover our sins.
The second thought I have on this is that the Jews are actively preparing to rebuild their third physical temple. So, if God were referring to the one in Heaven wouldn't He just say that - and why tell John to measure the Temple, but leave out the "outer court", and the number of people who worship there? Doesn't this imply a physical building on earth? |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 24, 2018 19:24:42 GMT -6
This is all very interesting! Belle-- welcome! |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 24, 2018 19:50:11 GMT -6
Here are some thoughts that I have had...At the time Paul was writing, the Temple was still standing. It was probably called the Temple of God even though God's presence wasn't there anymore, it was still technically His temple. It had been built for Him. I don't know how much was revealed to Paul. Obviously it was revealed that anti-Christ would sit in the Temple where God should be, but maybe Paul did not understand that the present Temple was to be destroyed and then a new temple built. The third Temple will probably be called the Temple of God even though He's not in it. The Jews will be building it for their worship of Him even though they are blinded to what real worship is.
It seems likely God is going to pick up right where He left off with the Jews. They had a physical Temple that they worshipped in, were sacrificing animals in, and turned into a den of thieves. They called this the Temple of God and will likely do so when the 3rd Temple is rebuild. I mean, why not? That's their tradition. Right? They are already calling it the "Temple of God." They are already sacrificing animals as well - even without a physical building - in preparation for this.
Finally, doesn't Revelation say there will be no Temple in the Holy City as Christ Himself will be the Temple? I could be wrong on this, but thought I read something that indicated this. So, who knows what will happen to this particular building. Wouldn't doubt it would be destroyed in all of the disasters that will come on Israel. And can't see the Lord setting Himself up in a defiled Temple. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 24, 2018 19:50:28 GMT -6
Hi butterfly5777! Regarding your first 2 questions... I don’t understand the theological implications of there being evil in heaven. But I do know that Rev 12 says that there is about to be a war in heaven and Satan is about to be cast down. So to me that implies he is in heaven, whether we understand how this can be allowed or not. For your second question I need to move to my computer. Will answer soon! |
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Post by domagb on Jan 24, 2018 20:05:08 GMT -6
**If the 144,000 are supposed to be male virgins, this could very well be the armies of Israel who would be made up of young men. These armies of young men may flee from the dragon surrounding them in war, God comes to their aid, and they stay in the wilderness being nourished. Israel is one of only a few countries in the world with a mandatory military service requirement for women. with women comprising over 20% of Israeli forces in 1948, and 33% of all IDF soldiers and 51% of its officers, in 2011 Shows women are a main component within the Israel military..... I believe (with no facts to back it up) the 144k will come from the traditional Jewish schools (which strictly forbid women of even entering)..... I could be wrong, but isn't it mandatory government service, not necessarily military work? There is a difference. |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 24, 2018 21:40:26 GMT -6
Hi butterfly5777 ! Hi Witness1! Hope all is well. Thanks for your responses.Regarding your first 2 questions... I don’t understand the theological implications of there being evil in heaven. If you think of God and all He's created, He is the author of both good and evil. This goes along with the thought that everything has its equal and opposite reaction - otherwise balance, science, logic, etc. do not exist - which we know they do.
Mind you, this does NOT mean God "activated" the evil button. He clearly did not - as it's impossible for God to sin. Lucifer is the one who started this evil spiral downward with the fallen angels and later, man, assisting.
With this in mind, Lucifer had access to the Throne room of God at one point because Isaiah records him walking among the stones and speaking to God Almighty telling Him 5x what he was and was not going to do. From that point, he rebels with 1/3 of the angels - war in Heaven breaks out - and they get kicked out. (Rev 12 take 1)
Many think that Lucifer was in charge of the 1st earth - the one people think is billions of years old with dinasours, etc.
Many also think the 2nd earth - the one we're sitting on today - which is only 6000 years old - and was "re" created after Lucifer and his fallen angels were "thrown down" and "cast out of Heaven" and they lost their positions. This was what created the darkness on the earth that the Holy Spirit came to investigate when He was hovering over the waters.
God's Word - "Let there be Light!" and there was light... becomes a plausible explanation for the Big Bang theory.
Then, God goes about "re" creating the earth in 7 days and puts Adam and Eve in charge - telling them specifically not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil - as this would give Satan access to rule over them on the earth and resume his position of leadership in the earth realm.
Later in Genesis, after the two fall, we learn about the "fallen angels' or nephilim mating with human women. Thus, they had access to the earth and the heavens above the earth, but I'm not sure it says he has access to the Throne of God at this point.
Remember there are 3 Heavens - the 1st is the sky. The 2nd is the solar system. The third is the Throne Room of God. The Word tells us that they have access to earth (Satan walks to and fro seeking whom he may devour...) and the sky/solar system (the power and principalities of the air).
The second occurrence of Rev 12 was just before Jesus was born - heralding the birth of the Messiah.
The third occurrence of Rev 12 just occurred in September - in my opinion, heralding a potential countdown - of the start of the 7 years. (But, I could be wrong.)
Remember God does many things in 3's. As for the earth, we will ultimately be on the 3rd earth when this one is destroyed and remade into the New Earth.
Clearly after the 2nd woe the angels will be fighting in the "heavenlies" with Satan and his angels - and then Rev 12 through 21 will take place.
So, if the recent Sept event means anything, I see it as a bookend to the one coming 3.5 years into this - the other half. Perhaps that's why the first few verses have come to pass and the last several have not. (Also, I see this as a sign of the birth of the 144K as the "manchild" not the church.)
One would surmise, however, that God informed the angels of the existence of evil just as He informed Adam in the Garden. Yes.
But I do know that Rev 12 says that there is about to be a war in heaven and Satan is about to be cast down. So to me that implies he is in heaven, whether we understand how this can be allowed or not. Again, I see this as 1/2 of Rev 12 happening in Sept 2017 with the last half 3.5 years into the tribulation.
For your second question I need to move to my computer. Will answer soon! Have to run for now. Will try to check back in the next day or so for your responses. God bless! |
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Post by kjs on Jan 25, 2018 10:05:23 GMT -6
Israel is one of only a few countries in the world with a mandatory military service requirement for women. with women comprising over 20% of Israeli forces in 1948, and 33% of all IDF soldiers and 51% of its officers, in 2011 Shows women are a main component within the Israel military..... I believe (with no facts to back it up) the 144k will come from the traditional Jewish schools (which strictly forbid women of even entering)..... I could be wrong, but isn't it mandatory government service, not necessarily military work? There is a difference. No, they (women as whole) are required to serve in military -- however, there are exemptions which allow government service instead of military. As with any "All Inclusive" laws -- exceptions crop up .... Conscription exists in Israel for all Israeli citizens over the age of 18 who are Jewish, Druze or Circassian; Arab citizens of Israel are not conscripted. Other exceptions are made on religious, physical or psychological grounds. ... In 2013, 26% of potential conscripts were exempt from military service. |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 26, 2018 13:24:04 GMT -6
The second thought I have on this is that the Jews are actively preparing to rebuild their third physical temple. So, if God were referring to the one in Heaven wouldn't He just say that - and why tell John to measure the Temple, but leave out the "outer court", and the number of people who worship there? Doesn't this imply a physical building on earth? Hi! I am so glad you asked this question because, as I have been studying it the last few days, a lot came to light which I think actually supports my assumption that these scriptures we have been looking at are not referring to a 3rd temple in Jerusalem. Here is the text we are discussing: 1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:1-3There are 2 possibilities regarding this text:
1) This is a literal temple. The implications of this is that the temple will have to be built BEFORE the tribulation because it is before the witnesses prophesy for 1260 days and are then killed/resurrected/taken to heaven. Although the temple is ready to go, it is not built yet and even having it done in 3-6 months seems like it would be out of the time frame we are looking at right now.
2) This is talking about something other than a literal temple.
After reading several commentaries on biblehub, there is nearly unanimous consensus (among the ones I read... there are a lot of them!) that this is referring to something other than a literal building.
I wish I could go into it now, but I will follow up hopefully tonight with an examination of the Greek words used here and why I think it is not talking about a 3rd temple but is talking about the rapture. I am encouraged and think you will be too!
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Post by kjs on Jan 29, 2018 13:29:28 GMT -6
Here is the text we are discussing: 1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:1-3Based on this verse alone -- indicates there needs to be at least ONE MORE Temple and this describes a future event.1) Both first and second Temples were destroyed (along with the City)Yet, this temple -- still stands (and apparently is used) -- while the city surrounding it is "trampled upon" for 42 months (3 1/2 years).At no point in the past has the temple remained standing while the city is destroyed.... so the only valid assumption is it is an future event. Granted that does not make this the "third" temple.... just some future temple of God. |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 29, 2018 23:50:09 GMT -6
Hi! I am so glad you asked this question because, as I have been studying it the last few days, a lot came to light which I think actually supports my assumption that these scriptures we have been looking at are not referring to a 3rd temple in Jerusalem. Here is the text we are discussing: 1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” Revelation 11:1-3There are 2 possibilities regarding this text:1) This is a literal temple. The implications of this is that the temple will have to be built BEFORE the tribulation because it is before the witnesses prophesy for 1260 days and are then killed/resurrected/taken to heaven. Although the temple is ready to go, it is not built yet and even having it done in 3-6 months seems like it would be out of the time frame we are looking at right now.2) This is talking about something other than a literal temple.After reading several commentaries on biblehub, there is nearly unanimous consensus (among the ones I read... there are a lot of them!) that this is referring to something other than a literal building.I wish I could go into it now, but I will follow up hopefully tonight with an examination of the Greek words used here and why I think it is not talking about a 3rd temple but is talking about the rapture. I am encouraged and think you will be too!Hi Witness1, thanks for your response. I suppose your theory could be correct, but for this to be the case, it seems you might be thinking of this verse as a metaphor rather than as an actual physical structure. Correct? I mean, the way I see it, it can only be one of 3 things:
1.) An actual building, which will be located in Jerusalem, during the last 7 years, where the newly reinstated Sanhedrin will exert religious authority over the people as they did in the Old Testament, and all High Holy Days will be commemorated with priestly sacrifices (animal) for sin.
2.) The Holy Temple in Heaven - in the New Jerusalem - but Revelation does not speak of this per se and I don't see how unbelieving Gentiles could ever "trample the Holy City underfoot for 42 months when they have no access to Heaven.
3. The Temple of the Holy Spirit - Christians and their physical bodies - which will be glorified once raptured. Again, since the Gentiles can not and will not "trample" us for 42 months I don't see how this can be possible either.
Therefore, I have to stick with #1. I'm interested in hearing your feedback and findings though. Perhaps I'm missing something... it's always possible! |
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