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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 18, 2018 21:43:03 GMT -6
butterfly777, I am not convinced that Revelation is written in order. Especially looking at Chapter 7 and Chapter 14 regarding the witnesses. ALso in Chapter 7 you have tribulation saints mentioned and we are only getting into part of the wraths.. Not all Bible translations say in Chapter 12, Then I saw a great Sign. Some just start with I saw a great Sign.. chapter 12 coming right after Ch 11 is very debatable..
just my two cents...
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Post by witness1 on Jan 18, 2018 22:05:19 GMT -6
I don’t think my scenario paints a mid-trib rapture picture based on the translation I was using (NASB):
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." - Daniel 9:27
This looks like sacrifice and offering stop FOR half of the week. Not AT the halfway mark.
I know it’s long, but perhaps take another look at what I wrote. I said maybe the sacrifice of Christians ends for 3.5 years... pre trib to mid trib... at the mid point it resumes.
EDIT: I use ESV. Not sure why I wrote NASB
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Post by witness1 on Jan 18, 2018 22:21:41 GMT -6
As far as Revelation 11 and 12 go... My pondering, which I haven’t really investigated fully, is whether the witnesses might lead the Israelites in the wilderness like Moses did. The last time the earth came to the aid of the woman and the last time she fled into the wilderness, she had a leader (2 with Aaron). This leader performed all sorts of signs and miracles as Israel received God’s covenant and learned to follow him. Dennis’ Pentecost theory had me spending a lot of time in Exodus and got me thinking about how Revelation 12 may show some parallels with the earth coming to the aid of the woman and fleeing to the wilderness paralleling the Red Sea and Sinai. Wouldn’t it be awesome if the Lord/the witnesses led the Israelites to a place where God has a “Mt Sinai Take 2” and confirms the covenant He made with them?
What doesn’t line up in my theory is that Jesus tells them to flee when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (let the reader understand). We have always thought this to be at the halfway point.
I’ve been thinking about this for a few months and have never shared because I can’t make Matthew 24 line up and it may be in left field like my witnesses theory. But I feel led to share now in a brainstorming sort of way, hoping it may spark a thought in someone. I certainly am not dogmatic about these ideas.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 18, 2018 22:38:46 GMT -6
As far as starting in Rev 12, I am not saying it comes before anything else. It is at the center of the chiastic structure and therefore is sort of its own thing. I’m saying it could be a general outline of events and Rev 11 and everything else overlap as the details of the outline.
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Post by witness1 on Jan 18, 2018 22:48:41 GMT -6
Although I didn’t agree with some of his ideas, SK had 2 points that I think are valid and are things I’ve been thinking about since October:
1) The 3rd temple is not the temple of God. 2) Daniel 9:27 does not say anything about peace.
I am attempting to reconcile the holes I see in the traditional dispensation theory. I may be doing a terrible job and that’s ok- I’m brainstorming. Just be gentle if you disagree!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jan 19, 2018 14:28:38 GMT -6
witness1 I am with you and doing the same thing. People have made a lot of assumptions about Dan 9:27, and even as far back as Dan 9:24. Let's take for the sake of argument this 7 year tribulation/wrath period being the 70th week. If that were not a stumbling block, how would Revelation look and be explained? Just a thought...
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Post by kjs on Jan 19, 2018 16:13:05 GMT -6
Again, I will go back to Matt 24 -- Jesus says to watch for the abomination .... and to flee when it is seen.....
Everything seems to point to the one stopping the sacrifice as part of the abomination .....
therefore, I still see the HE (as the confirm-er of covenant and the Stopper of sacrifice) as being the AC.....
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Post by witness1 on Jan 19, 2018 18:30:45 GMT -6
It certainly could be. I'm sure there is a really good reason that is the most widely accepted understanding. I'm just tossing out ideas so in case we see anything weird we can go back to the drawing board.
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 19, 2018 21:17:37 GMT -6
I don’t think my scenario paints a mid-trib rapture picture based on the translation I was using (NASB): And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." - Daniel 9:27 This looks like sacrifice and offering stop FOR half of the week. Not AT the halfway mark. I know it’s long, but perhaps take another look at what I wrote. I said maybe the sacrifice of Christians ends for 3.5 years... pre trib to mid trib... at the mid point it resumes.
When I read this verse, I think it means that the AC tells the Jewish people, who have been worshipping in their Temple for 3.5 years, throughout the first half of the Tribulation, that they are no longer permitted to offer animal sacrifices for their sins - as they did throughout the OT - and now must worship him as "god" instead.
So, yes, the sacrifice and offering would be stopped FOR half of the week - the 2nd half - but, it's how you define the "sacrifice" that matters. I believe this is an animal sacrifice, not a human one. I say this because the AC then turns on the Jews who don't comply with his demands and he begins to "sacrifice" them just as he did with the Gentiles for the next 3.5 years. So, technically, if you define it in terms of human sacrifice - it goes for a full 7 years - with millions being killed.
Again, if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, please clarify. Thanks! |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 19, 2018 21:28:52 GMT -6
butterfly777, I am not convinced that Revelation is written in order. Especially looking at Chapter 7 and Chapter 14 regarding the witnesses. ALso in Chapter 7 you have tribulation saints mentioned and we are only getting into part of the wraths.. Not all Bible translations say in Chapter 12, Then I saw a great Sign. Some just start with I saw a great Sign.. chapter 12 coming right after Ch 11 is very debatable.. just my two cents... |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 19, 2018 21:39:12 GMT -6
As far as Revelation 11 and 12 go... My pondering, which I haven’t really investigated fully, is whether the witnesses might lead the Israelites in the wilderness like Moses did. The last time the earth came to the aid of the woman and the last time she fled into the wilderness, she had a leader (2 with Aaron). This leader performed all sorts of signs and miracles as Israel received God’s covenant and learned to follow him. Dennis’ Pentecost theory had me spending a lot of time in Exodus and got me thinking about how Revelation 12 may show some parallels with the earth coming to the aid of the woman and fleeing to the wilderness paralleling the Red Sea and Sinai. Wouldn’t it be awesome if the Lord/the witnesses led the Israelites to a place where God has a “Mt Sinai Take 2” and confirms the covenant He made with them? What doesn’t line up in my theory is that Jesus tells them to flee when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (let the reader understand). We have always thought this to be at the halfway point. I’ve been thinking about this for a few months and have never shared because I can’t make Matthew 24 line up and it may be in left field like my witnesses theory. But I feel led to share now in a brainstorming sort of way, hoping it may spark a thought in someone. I certainly am not dogmatic about these ideas. |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Jan 19, 2018 21:44:50 GMT -6
Although I didn’t agree with some of his ideas, SK had 2 points that I think are valid and are things I’ve been thinking about since October: 1) The 3rd temple is not the temple of God. 2) Daniel 9:27 does not say anything about peace. I am attempting to reconcile the holes I see in the traditional dispensation theory. I may be doing a terrible job and that’s ok- I’m brainstorming. Just be gentle if you disagree! |
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Post by witness1 on Jan 19, 2018 22:39:16 GMT -6
What I am imagining (and my imagination gets the best of me...) is that the Witnesses will lead some (144,000?) in the wilderness and nourish them with the bread of the Gospel. Like the 3 years Paul had before he was sent forth with his message, the 144,000 would have roughly the same period of time to be prepared by God. Remember that God made the Jews a Kingdom of Priests, but they failed to bring the Kingdom to the world. Let’s remember the purpose for the 70th week: Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Dan 9:24 The 144,000 have to be prepared somehow. I see them as 144,000 Pauls being turned loose all over the world, taking the message of the Gospel truly to the ends of the earth (Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth...). I feel like they would need a significant amount of preparation for this to occur just like Paul had 3 years. So... in my imagination, they go to the wilderness where God renews His covenant and reminds them that He made them a Kingdom of Priests and they have a time of preparation. This is a second fulfillment of both Mt Sinai and the Road to Damascus. They then RETURN to begin spreading the Gospel, at which point the witnesses are killed. Now... if what I’m imagining were to happen, the witnesses being present with the 144,000 isn’t necessary. God could speak to the 144,000 directly and the witnesses may just be in Jerusalem the whole time on camera preaching to the world. But since we think the end will parallel the beginning, it makes sense to me that they could parallel Moses and Aaron. If this were to play out, the abomination would have to be at the beginning. Thessalonians actually sounds like we may see the abomination: Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 When Paul says “that day will not come”, is he talking about a) the day of the Lord, or b) the rapture? It isn’t clear. If it’s (b) and he says the rapture will not occur unless the man of lawlessness is revealed, we may see something that fits this. This could be our warning like disciple4life talks about. If we were to see some abomination, we would be pretty confused if we aren’t expecting that until the middle. But we have always thought the abomination was at the middle based on Daniel 9:27 and not the other way around. Maybe we’ve been looking at Daniel 9:27 wrong. It’s a pretty difficult chunk of text. I get that this is completely flipped upside down from the traditional theory. But that theory has a LOT of holes in it. Time will tell if we see some abomination- something to do with the ark of the covenant, something to do with someone demanding to be worshipped, etc. if we do see something like this, we can put our heads together around this idea I’ve presented. If not, we’ll know witness1 just has an overactive imagination! |
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 20, 2018 3:41:57 GMT -6
What I am imagining (and my imagination gets the best of me...) is that the Witnesses will lead some (144,000?) in the wilderness and nourish them with the bread of the Gospel. Like the 3 years Paul had before he was sent forth with his message, the 144,000 would have roughly the same period of time to be prepared by God. Remember that God made the Jews a Kingdom of Priests, but they failed to bring the Kingdom to the world. Let’s remember the purpose for the 70th week: Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. Dan 9:24 The 144,000 have to be prepared somehow. I see them as 144,000 Pauls being turned loose all over the world, taking the message of the Gospel truly to the ends of the earth (Judea, Samaria, and the ends of the earth...). I feel like they would need a significant amount of preparation for this to occur just like Paul had 3 years. So... in my imagination, they go to the wilderness where God renews His covenant and reminds them that He made them a Kingdom of Priests and they have a time of preparation. This is a second fulfillment of both Mt Sinai and the Road to Damascus. They then RETURN to begin spreading the Gospel, at which point the witnesses are killed. Now... if what I’m imagining were to happen, the witnesses being present with the 144,000 isn’t necessary. God could speak to the 144,000 directly and the witnesses may just be in Jerusalem the whole time on camera preaching to the world. But since we think the end will parallel the beginning, it makes sense to me that they could parallel Moses and Aaron. If this were to play out, the abomination would have to be at the beginning. Thessalonians actually sounds like we may see the abomination: Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 When Paul says “that day will not come”, is he talking about a) the day of the Lord, or b) the rapture? It isn’t clear. If it’s (b) and he says the rapture will not occur unless the man of lawlessness is revealed, we may see something that fits this. This could be our warning like disciple4life talks about. If we were to see some abomination, we would be pretty confused if we aren’t expecting that until the middle. But we have always thought the abomination was at the middle based on Daniel 9:27 and not the other way around. Maybe we’ve been looking at Daniel 9:27 wrong. It’s a pretty difficult chunk of text. I get that this is completely flipped upside down from the traditional theory. But that theory has a LOT of holes in it. Time will tell if we see some abomination- something to do with the ark of the covenant, something to do with someone demanding to be worshipped, etc. if we do see something like this, we can put our heads together around this idea I’ve presented. If not, we’ll know witness1 just has an overactive imagination! Hello witness1 and others,
I love the puzzle analogy by butterfly5777, and it's one I've used before. Every analogy is imperfect, but this one "fits" the best in terms of looking at the pieces of end-times, and that no one has all the pieces.
This is not to say 'you're wrong' but rather to simply offer a perspective - some holes or maybe its better to say points as to why I think that the blue pieces you have are not "water". I've been convinced that the blue piece I had was "sky" - It was too clear and perfect to be water, and then it turned out that it was a blue house. heheh. I don't agree with SK's view that the temple is not God's. **I think it was Butterfly that believe this, not sure. Every reason I've heard for why 'we are the temple' , or "our bodies are the temple" etc, all are from a Christian, /gentile perspective, and fall flat. The Majority of Jews' eyes are blinded, and they desperately want a temple, and will do almost anything to build one. Scripture is clear that there will be a temple in Jerusalem with a holy place, - where the AC commits Abomination. If it were a Buddhist temple, or Muslim temple, or Mormon temple, - scripture would not refer to the 'holy place'. -- This is the holy of holies that only the high priest can go, and offers the sacrifice on Day of Atonement - ***Most holy day in Judaism. - Christians disagree about the timing of the rapture - whether it is pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or pre-wrath, etc, but There is almost universal agreement among Christians across denominations and continents that there will be something that lights the fuse -- some event that starts the clock. Not like the tribulation will quietly start on some slow news day in Nebraska and it will go for 4 months, or 1 year and life goes on like normal.
- We have an exact day count for the witnesses. 3 1/2 years 1260 days. These guys are miracle working Ninjas who don't die, and they breathe fire out of their mouths -- This will make twitter and FB and every social media platform explode. Every person on the planet with a smartphone will know about these guys in days. Who's gonna send a puppy picture on FB when you can send a pic of a dude who breathes fire like a dragon, and turns water to blood.
- Check this out -- Revelation 11:9. Their bodies will lay in the street for 3 1/2 days. Someone else said 3 days, but I think this is significant. 3 1/2 days, which -- very curiously, matches the 3 1/2 years of the first and second half of the tribulation. ***I know that there are some who believe the whole tribulation is 3 1/2 years - but this also matches the passages in Rev and fits the prophetic pattern of day-for-a-year. Time, Times and half a time. I'm not one who holds the 3 1/2 year total time, but I think this would be a support for that view. ;-)
- There is nothing from scripture to imply or even indicate that the 144,000 witnesses need to be prepared or trained. The time of the Gentiles will be over. They already have the head knowledge of feasts and sacrifices and the Torah, and God's attention is re-focused on the Jews. We know that the majority of the Jews will still be blinded, until the Abomination of desolation. This is a specific number - not sure how God chooses, but he is sovereign, and I don't think it will be some random 18 year old Jewish hip-hop rappers. In other words, any preparation they need, will likely be supernatural, since they are all over the globe.
- I know you didn't say all of the 144,000 would be trained, - but part of them. There is no indication any of these will be in Jerusalem, or even in Israel. In fact, because the Jews were scattered all over the earth by God, as part of prophecy, it makes more sense that the majority of these are not in Israel.
- If we were to see Jerusalem divided, a massive- mega earthquake that triggers tsunamis or a giant meteorite that crashes into DC or NY, or a nuclear attack, or a man emerge who was recognized by the Jews as the Messiah ** I think he would have to be Jewish, from the line of David , If we were to see excavation begin for the temple, or actual construction happening on the temple Mount, **It's Not a Pizzeria, If we were to see any kind of massive military attack on Damascus or Israel, we would know that the tribulation has begun, but none of these things have happened.
- I agree with SK's view that the passage doesn't say a "peace treaty" but let's be clear, Israel is literally surrounded by Muslim countries who are not interested in launching Applebees or Cracker Barrel restaurants throughout the Middle East. The Treaty is not to build a massive Lego plant in East Jerusalem, with fictional "Palestinian/Hobbit" workers. **My point is that this will not be some back room deal for fishing rights in the dead sea, or plans for a new Mall in Gaza. It will be a major deal -probably pushed or sanctioned by the vile, Anti-Semitic UN, or at least, signed by the alliance of Turkey, Iran and Russia.
I'm not dogmatic, and don't want to sound argumentative - just an Otter/expressive, sharing my "blue piece" of the puzzle. ;-) I'd love to know others' perspectives as we work on the puzzle together.
Maranatha
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Post by witness1 on Jan 20, 2018 12:08:43 GMT -6
I have a lot of thoughts, and I am grateful this is a safe place to share them. It is fun knowing that you're an Otter/expressive disciple4life! I am a Retriever/sensitive and generally do not like conflict or rocking the boat in any way. So this is a bit unusual for me to go against the flow like I am. I want to reiterate that I do not hold these ideas tightly. This is me watching with you all and saying, "What's that in the distance? I know we think it's a cloud, but what if it's a plane?" I am not arguing that it's a plane but merely throwing it out there. Time will tell as it gets closer. I also want to say that I absolutely believe the countdown has not begun yet. Perhaps the moderators may want to move my comments since I have digressed from the original purpose of the thread. My apologies. I thought the article on Daniel Matson's website about the "He" being the Messiah was pretty convincing. Here it is again in case anyone hasn't read it yet: watchfortheday.org/whoishe.htmlI have gone back to your puzzle analogy many times... I read that when you posted it before and thought it was brilliant. What I have been trying to do is combine everyone's contributions. We have had some contributions on this site that were quite unusual... should they be thrown out? Were these people false prophets or just believers longing for their savior who got some parts wrong? I go to 1 John 4:2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." So I submit that SK and Dennis and perhaps others got some things wrong but still may have contributed to the puzzle. SK pointed out some valid holes in the traditional view, ones which I had been thinking myself, and Dennis really got us (or at least me) to look at Exodus and Pentecost. I think the end is about undoing the beginning. Where things went wrong the first time, God will make it right the second time. Ultimately, the curse of the Garden will be undone, but there is a lot to "undo" before we get to that point. What needs to be undone? Sinai. God told the Jews to be a Kingdom of Priests. The giving of the law happened over a period of time. At the conception of the law, the 10 Commandments were given, Moses wrote them down, and the Jews were inaugurated as a kingdom of priests and a holy nation in Exodus 24:6-8. Fifty days later, the law was complete when God wrote the Commandments in His own hand and the Levites were ordained when they killed 3000. This is the day that corresponded with the Acts Pentecost. This part of the process was undone when God's law was written on our hearts with the Holy Spirit. I am questioning whether we are now going in reverse back to the beginning of that giving of the law and if the first day will be undone with the 144,000 being sealed to act as the Priests God asked them to be the first time. Instead of only the tribe of Levi acting as Priests, all 12 tribes will act as Priests. I agree that the purpose of the 144,000 is not given and nowhere does it say they need to be prepared or trained. But it does say that these people are to be "servants of God". It sounds like God is planning to use them in some way. If they are to be used to share the Gospel, whether that be to Jews or Gentiles, a time of preparation would be in order. Even though Paul knew the Torah better than anyone, he had 3 years to be prepared by God to understand how the Messiah fulfilled the Torah and to meet God in a personal way. If the purpose of the 144,000 is to seal up the transgression and act as the Priests God intended them to be... from every tribe and not just the tribe of Levi... these may be the ones God nourishes in the wilderness for 3.5 years. I find it interesting that the sealing of the 144,000 is right before the multitude is in heaven at the throne. It seems to suggest that these events happen close together... the rapture and the sealing. |
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