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Post by mike on Feb 1, 2018 7:12:02 GMT -6
witness1 butterfly5777I wont speak for all but think I represent...'we' do not believe in qualifiers for rapture save belief on Christ. We've had dialogue on this topic of "who makes the cut" in a few different threads and it typically doesnt produce much (IMO). When we start to apply qualifications on who is saved and who is not we become the judge (or at least can sound like one), which none of us qualify for. There is one judge  So I think we need to leave the qualifications out the dialogue as it comes across as "I'm a better christian than (someone else) because they dont do this or that and I do". When in truth everyone of us sins each and every day. To measure my sin vs. yours would be foolish. We want to serve this forum and ask that you pray for us to help do so when you can.
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Post by mike on Feb 1, 2018 7:27:11 GMT -6
witness1Thinking on these things has caused a few headaches I have been challenged by the Lord mightily this past year or so and being here on Unsealed has increased that dramatically. There are many engrained concepts that we need to loosen our grip on. Unfortunately we may not convince those who hold tightly to other things. I submit that we too, although we think we may be loosening our grip examine ourselves on our views as well. Not pointing fingers except at myself! The Great Sign itself challenged me in how I read Revelation, to me it is clearly not a linear book. Though many already knew that I had to rethink it. If I were to bet, there is soooooo much still sealed that we will be in awe as each little morsel begins to come into focus. PS Witness1 - I edit your post as I saw the tag for Butterfly5777 was missing a "7"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 7:52:33 GMT -6
Yes! Thank you for brainstorming! I was not clear (again!). It’s confusing now that I’m suggesting the first half of the week already happened yet I also said the witnesses are the first half. I should have said that the witnesses are at the beginning of the tribulation and not the end. The count of the tribulation begins when they begin their testimony. What I am saying is this: First half of Daniel’s week: Jesus Second half of Daniel’s Week: 1335 days of tribulation Within the 1335 days are the 1260 days of the Witness’ testimony and their death and resurrection. Then the abomination that makes desolate is set up at day 1290 (Daniel 12:11), and then there are another 45 days where people must survive without the mark. Ah....OK, now even my old brain has got it.  Maybe we should create some chart with the assumed timeline and see where the flaws are. Getting warm with this idea... |
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Post by sawdy on Feb 1, 2018 8:17:08 GMT -6
What I think, and this is way outside the box, is that there is a different abomination and the tribulation is only 1335 days. I think God makes the covenant. I think He removes the daily... the offerings inside the altar that are protected FOR half of the week while the outer court is trampled. So where did the other half of the week go? stephen pointed out it could have been Jesus’ Ministry from baptism to Golgotha. 3.5 years. Is there any scripture to back this up? Covenant theologians might say we have no good reason to believe there is a gap in Daniel at all. But Jesus gave us a beautiful clue when he stopped reading from the scroll in the middle of Isaiah 61:2. The scripture even begins with His anointing (baptism) for the first half (61:1) and then begins with the day of the Lord’s vengeance for the second half (61:2b). He showed us where things “cut off”, and they cut off after 3.5 years! I had to do a little searching to find out where Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 as I wasn't sure where it was. (Luke 4:18-19). The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the LORD. Then I went to Isaiah (Isaiah 61:1-2) 1The Spirit of the LORD GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn I see variances in what he is quoting. (meek/poor) (bind/heal) (proclaim liberty/preach deliverance) and the quote difference between Isaiah (opening of the prison to them that are bound) and the quote by Jesus (and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised). Why the differences, especially in the the latter part of 61:1? It is interesting that he is reading because he has the scroll in front of him but he is not reading verbatim. And that he stops before 61:2b, rolls the scroll us and says 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (Luke 4:21) I definitely see the break between Jesus' ministry and the upcoming day of vengeance. No wonder the people were furious. How dare Jesus, son of Joseph, a mere man, claim to be the Messiah and claim to have fulfilled this scripture? To them who knew their scripture he must have also been claiming 61:2b without reading it because they tie together. So they got mad because not only is Jesus telling them he is the Messiah, he is also telling them he is ushering in the day of vengeance. It is like the people of today when we try to tell them that the time of Revelation is drawing near. Many ignore us or get angry/defiant at you mentioning that this is the case. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 9:19:08 GMT -6
witness1 butterfly5777 I wont speak for all but think I represent...' we' do not believe in qualifiers for rapture save belief on Christ. We've had dialogue on this topic of "who makes the cut" in a few different threads and it typically doesnt produce much (IMO). When we start to apply qualifications on who is saved and who is not we become the judge (or at least can sound like one), which none of us qualify for. There is one judge So I think we need to leave the qualifications out the dialogue as it comes across as "I'm a better christian than (someone else) because they dont do this or that and I do". When in truth everyone of us sins each and every day. To measure my sin vs. yours would be foolish. We want to serve this forum and ask that you pray for us to help do so when you can. I see what you're saying that we need to be careful to not sound like a judge, and that makes a lot of sense. Please know that I pray for the moderators regularly! This is a hard thing we're doing with this online, pseudo-church, but I think we have all grown in fruit because of our dealings with one another. Thank you for being the example in this! |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 9:26:11 GMT -6
Yes! Thank you for brainstorming! I was not clear (again!). It’s confusing now that I’m suggesting the first half of the week already happened yet I also said the witnesses are the first half. I should have said that the witnesses are at the beginning of the tribulation and not the end. The count of the tribulation begins when they begin their testimony. What I am saying is this: First half of Daniel’s week: Jesus Second half of Daniel’s Week: 1335 days of tribulation Within the 1335 days are the 1260 days of the Witness’ testimony and their death and resurrection. Then the abomination that makes desolate is set up at day 1290 (Daniel 12:11), and then there are another 45 days where people must survive without the mark. Ah....OK, now even my old brain has got it. Maybe we should create some chart with the assumed timeline and see where the flaws are. Getting warm with this idea... I'll work on a chart today, although this is definitely not my area of expertise. But perhaps it will communicate a basic idea and then everyone can fill in/correct my mistakes/critique. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 9:31:26 GMT -6
What I think, and this is way outside the box, is that there is a different abomination and the tribulation is only 1335 days. I think God makes the covenant. I think He removes the daily... the offerings inside the altar that are protected FOR half of the week while the outer court is trampled. So where did the other half of the week go? stephen pointed out it could have been Jesus’ Ministry from baptism to Golgotha. 3.5 years. Is there any scripture to back this up? Covenant theologians might say we have no good reason to believe there is a gap in Daniel at all. But Jesus gave us a beautiful clue when he stopped reading from the scroll in the middle of Isaiah 61:2. The scripture even begins with His anointing (baptism) for the first half (61:1) and then begins with the day of the Lord’s vengeance for the second half (61:2b). He showed us where things “cut off”, and they cut off after 3.5 years! I had to do a little searching to find out where Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 as I wasn't sure where it was. (Luke 4:18-19). The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the LORD. Then I went to Isaiah (Isaiah 61:1-2) 1The Spirit of the LORD GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn I see variances in what he is quoting. (meek/poor) (bind/heal) (proclaim liberty/preach deliverance) and the quote difference between Isaiah (opening of the prison to them that are bound) and the quote by Jesus (and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised). Why the differences, especially in the the latter part of 61:1? It is interesting that he is reading because he has the scroll in front of him but he is not reading verbatim. And that he stops before 61:2b, rolls the scroll us and says 21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. (Luke 4:21) I definitely see the break between Jesus' ministry and the upcoming day of vengeance. No wonder the people were furious. How dare Jesus, son of Joseph, a mere man, claim to be the Messiah and claim to have fulfilled this scripture? To them who knew their scripture he must have also been claiming 61:2b without reading it because they tie together. So they got mad because not only is Jesus telling them he is the Messiah, he is also telling them he is ushering in the day of vengeance. It is like the people of today when we try to tell them that the time of Revelation is drawing near. Many ignore us or get angry/defiant at you mentioning that this is the case. I think this could provide interesting discussion. One thing my commentary points out is that Jesus also quotes Isaiah 58:6 here, which is letting the oppressed go free. I'm not sure why he adds that though other than it continues the theme of jubilee. My translation (ESV) uses "poor" in both Isaiah and Luke. |
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Post by sog on Feb 1, 2018 14:02:31 GMT -6
I know this is probably throwing a monkey wrench into this discussion, but didn't want this possibility overlooked. christinprophecy.org/articles/the-third-temple/From the article- "This raises the question as to precisely when the temple will be rebuilt. The Bible does not reveal the answer to this question. All it says for certain is that the temple will be in existence when the Antichrist reveals himself (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and that will be in the middle of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). Since this will be only three and a half years into the Tribulation, many have concluded that the temple will likely be rebuilt before the Tribulation begins, because how could such a magnificent building be constructed in such a short period of time? But this conclusion overlooks the fact that the temple can be literally resurrected overnight! That’s because the Jews plan to erect a tent temple like the Tabernacle of Moses, and they are ready to do so at any moment. Everything has been prepared. Once this temporary temple is put up, they will resume the sacrifices and then start building a more permanent structure around and above the temporary one." The Sanhedrin Council of the Jewish nation have been reestablished since 2004 and have been preparing for this rebuilding ever since. Even the veil that separates the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies has been recreated by a small group of women in Israel. “Everything we need is ready,” Rabbi Ariel told Breaking Israel News. Given the total lack of a Temple structure, the rabbi’s claim required some substantiation. “An actual Temple is not needed. An altar can be constructed at the site of the original altar on the Temple Mount.” In light of what we know now about how the Temple Mount probably was actually located in the City of David and the current temple mount was actually the Roman fort, I don't think there is much of anything standing in the way of it being rebuilt. I don't necessarily want to take this discussion on another tangent, but thought it might be relevant. |
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Post by butterfly5777 on Feb 1, 2018 15:30:20 GMT -6
So it’s the middle of the night and I just took a peak on here... can’t write a long response now unfortunately. butterfly5777 , you did an excellent job explaining the churches and gave some perspectives I haven’t considered. Thanks, Witness1. It was an eye opener for me when I finally came to this conclusion. Giving up preconceived notions is not easy, but often we have to start with a blank page in order for the Holy Spirit to speak to us directly, rather than assuming everyone down through history has all of the correct answers - which we can clearly see, they do not. Fred Larson demonstrates this well in The Star of Bethlehem video when calculating the birth and death of Christ and points out that Josephus miscalculated the date of Herod's death - throwing everything else off. It sounds like when you said 6 of the 7 churches will not be raptured that you were stating what you believe to be Biblical fact and were in no way questioning any individual’s salvation, let alone mine. I did not think you were saying that in your first post, although I probably would have asked you to explain more about the churches because I’ve never heard that position. I was not questioning your salvation or faith, or that of anyone who is a born again Christian. We are called to be "iron sharpening iron"... can't do that without a few sparks flying. But, it's all good. No worries. But at first glance, you’ve given a lot of perspective here. I always wondered why the church at Smyrna said “Jews”, and you’ve given a good explanation. I look forward to going through your explanation more carefully in the morning... I do agree that not all churches are raptured, for some of the reasons you’ve stated, but I wonder if it may be more than just the one. Will have to read what you’ve written more carefully and ponder for a bit. One other gem that jumped out is when Jesus said “I will throw her into Great Tribulation” to Thyatira. We have always separated “tribulation”, and “great tribulation” as being the 2 halves of the 7 years, but if these are indeed talking about the rapture, would “great tribulation” be the whole thing? Looking forward to looking at this is the morning as well. The Lord warns about apostates infiltrating and poisoning the churches (and basically destroying them) with false doctrine. He also says, "In the Last Days, many will fall away..." We've had this happening for 2000 years, and it's getting worse day by day. In fact, we're there now. Once the Church of Philadelphia is removed, this is all that will be left.
Equally important, this might offer a plausible explanation as to why so many differ on whether or not the "rapture" is pretrib, midtrib, or posttrib. Perhaps their assessment of this is influenced by the particular church they see themselves in. (Although I would say that the rapture of the Church of Phila is definitely a pretrib event as God clearly indicated to them in His letter.) Food for thought.
butterfly5777 , I hope you got some sleep last night. Not sure what time zone you’re in, but it had to be pretty late when you finished this excellent post. I had the day off today so I'm good. Slept in a few hours this morning. But, thanks for your kind words and concern.
You’ve given us a lot to think about, and after we’re gone you’ve left a lot for those left behind to consider. Agreed. I think most people assume that because the word "church" is used everyone is an automatic Christian. This just isn't reality. We are called to discern who's a believer and who's not. This is not that difficult to do with people outside the church - as most unbelievers have a tangible dislike for all things Christian - and are usually quite verbal about it. However, we are also called to be discerning about imposters. This is much harder. Please see Parable of the Sower. Only the last group mentioned remained faithful and produced fruit (disciples). Remember, too, that He said, "The Enemy has sown tares among the wheat." This wasn't outside the church, it was inside of it. Weeds that are not pruned out will eventually overtake the wheat and choke the life out of them. This is what I believe has happened to 6 of the 7 churches. They have been overcome with evil and darkness, rather than truth and light, if they were ever "Christian" in the first place, which I strongly doubt. So although I wish you didn’t need to feel attacked to get to this point, I am grateful for all you have written and explained. I think the moderators have grown tired of having to deal with a lot of contentious, judgmental, “I’m getting raptured and you’re not” people on here (and a lot of people like myself who are pushing some buttons) and may be quick to respond in accusation when a simple request for explanation would have been in order. Agree. Praying for the moderators. Difficult job.
kjs , I respectfully submit that we need thoughtful people here who are willing to engage and discuss the scriptures and not just post earthquake updates, although that is valuable as well. I believe the moderators are capable of this but are tired, and with good reason. Newer people like myself and butterfly5777 are still ready to dialogue, and I think this is a good thing, and I don’t want to scare my new friend away 😊. I hope God blesses the sleep of you both and that you both have a good day tomorrow! I am looking forward to a loving, engaging discussion! Agree. Thanks, Witness1. I'm honored to be called your friend. Same to you. Won't get a chance to respond to the remainder of your posts today, or those made by others, but I will study what you've said and respond in a day or so. Blessings to all. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 15:30:55 GMT -6
sog, This is very relevant. That’s an excellent point about a tent temple... I didn’t even realize that could be an option but yes, that makes perfect sense. I’m grateful for discussion and I absolutely concede that you’ve pointed out a good possibility. Thank you! I don’t know that I’m passionately arguing for one side as much as I’m just trying to open up some discussion. I can concede that a temple will be built, and I can concede that the abomination may be exactly what people think it will be. But... I still think these things could happen and the covenant could still be God’s covenant and not the AC’s. I still think our timeline is based on Dan 9:27 and I have a hard time with that “he”. If the covenant is God’s and not the AC’s, we do not have a strict 7 year tribulation. As I’m studying the timeline of things... Rev 12 and Ezekiel 38 seem to be the same thing. And we see Ezekiel 38 setting up now. Since God comes to the aid of Israel... could they get this temple built without the help of the AC? If God destroys Israel’s enemies, Israel could take over the Temple Mount and build the temple as you say. I am brainstorming and appreciate everyone’s input!
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Post by Natalie on Feb 1, 2018 19:30:57 GMT -6
Here is a timing question...Jesus says to flee when they see the abomination. Rev 12 says they flee to the wilderness for 1260 days. So, it can't be set up with only 45 days left. Right?
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 21:30:33 GMT -6
An excellent question right at the heart of the matter! Thank you! I’ve been thinking about this a lot and have been thinking about creating a “flee to the wilderness” thread because there are many references to this in scripture but they don’t appear to go together. Revelation 12 is about God rescuing Israel from the flood of the dragon. She is then protected for 3.5 years. Yet the woman who flees is the woman who gives birth. It seems to me like she flees from the dragon right after she gives birth because the dragon pursues her immediately after being cast down. I firmly believe in a pre-trib rapture, so this fleeing needs to be at the beginning in my mind.
And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. - Revelation 12:13-14.
Conclusion #1: The woman flees at the beginning of the tribulation after Satan is cast out of heaven. She is safe for 3.5 years.
(EDIT: This I suppose is the issue we need to discuss, because everything else hinges on this conclusion.)
Now we look at Jesus’ words in the Gospels:
In Matthew 24, Jesus says to flee from the abomination and in Luke 21, He says to flee when Jerusalem is surrounded. If these are connected to Revelation 12, that doesn’t seem to work. I don’t understand how the woman can flee 1260 days into the tribulation (our traditional AofD time) yet also flee right after giving birth.
Conclusion Option A: The AofD is at the beginning (shortly after or simultaneously with the rapture) in order to connect Matthew 24 to Rev 12
Conclusion Option B: The accounts in Matthew and Luke are different and there are 2 commands to flee, which is quite possible. The command in Luke would connect to Rev 12 and the AofD in Matthew can be at day 1260 as per the traditional model. But this poses quite a problem which I will discuss below. This option will have to be thrown out.
Conclusion Option C: The accounts in Matthew and Luke are not related to Revelation 12.
Let's look at Option B above.
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21:20-24
This doesn't jive with Revelation 12 at all. Desolation has come near. The people will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations. Israel doesn't win this one... this is not the same event as Revelation 12.
Conclusion Option A: This has already happened at some point which I am not familiar with, in which case we don't need to try to make Luke 21 fit.
Conclusion Option B: This is Zechariah 14 (which I take to be the last battle at the very end of the tribulation)
EDIT: Conclusion option C: This is another passage of scripture with which I am not familiar.
Zechariah 14 says Jerusalem will be plundered and the women raped, and half of the people will go into exile. Then Jesus will descend on the Mount of Olives with His holy ones (which I take as us coming back from heaven with Him). I am wondering whether the half who are not taken into exile are those who flee according to Jesus' command in Luke.
I almost feel like a need to draw a flow chart here. Hopefully you have been able to follow my train of thought. The conclusions I have come to are either that the AofD needs to happen at the beginning of the tribulation or else Matthew 24 is not related to Revelation 12. Luke 21 cannot be related to Revelation 12 either way.
If Matthew is not related to Revelation 12, Matthew and Luke could be the same event and both be about Zechariah 14. This could indeed take place at day 1260 as per the traditional model. But then if we hold to a traditional 7 years, Zechariah does not sound like the people are in exile for very long. It sounds like the people fall and then Jesus comes quickly to the rescue as the Messiah they have always expected. I believe the 45 days I suggested would make perfect sense in this case.
Hopefully you can see why I have been pushing this... things just aren't adding up. Please let me know if you see something I don't or if I came to a faulty conclusion somewhere.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 1, 2018 22:33:31 GMT -6
Please look at this gem I just found in reading a commentary about the woman being given the wings of an eagle. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. Revelation 12:14
The commentary linked to Exodus 19: On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. 2They set out from Rephidim and came into the wilderness of Sinai, and they encamped in the wilderness. There Israel encamped before the mountain, 3while Moses went up to God. The LORD called to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the people of Israel: 4‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; 6and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.” Exodus 19:1-6I feel like in every way imaginable, Revelation 12 points us at Mt Sinai. Exodus>>>Earth comes to aid (Red Sea in Exodus, earthquake of Ezekiel 38 in Revelation)>>>Covenant>>>Wilderness>>>Promised Land.
I feel like God makes a covenant with His people during the time they are in the wilderness of Revelation 12. I feel like the 144,000 will be led to the wilderness somehow (ideas:maybe by the 2 witnesses like Moses and Aaron led the Israelites, or maybe these are soldiers who retreat from the Ezekiel 38 army) where God will confirm the covenant He made in the beginning and now the 144,000 will be from all tribes and not only the Levites. I am questioning whether believing Israel also flees to the wilderness and then is raptured with the Gentile church a few days (weeks? months?) later like the Elijah/Elisha story. One thing I keep coming back to is the two loaves waved at Pentecost. They are both equal but separate from each other. One is presented to the High Priest and the other is divided among all the other priests (AKA the 144,000?). I am wondering if the Jewish church may go to the wilderness with the 144,000 as the woman who gave birth to the child. I am in no way saying the Jewish church isn't raptured... just that they may flee first and then be taken up like Elijah/Elisha. In my mind, the rapture of the Gentile church would occur at the same time. Although this Elijah/Elisha thing could just be the case with the witnesses/144,000 (hyperlink Unsealed article) and have nothing to do with the Jewish church. Please read this as me brainstorming. When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me.” And he said, “You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you, but if you do not see me, it shall not be so.” And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! The chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more. 2 Kings 2:9-12 Regardless of who exactly is in the wilderness and how they get there, I think God makes a covenant with whomever it is in order to fulfill the pattern He established as the path to the promised land!
EDIT: Take a peak at the Groundhog Day thread. Candlemas is the day celebrating Jesus' presentation at the temple. But the Jews also have a holiday that same day: "Jewish History 17, Shevat Purim Saragossa (1421) A noxious plot was brewing against the Jewish community of Saragossa, but they were completely unaware of the looming danger. They were spared, however, thanks to a handful of synagogues beadles who acted on a dream they all had. The resulting salvation on the 17th of Shevat was celebrated by Saragossan Jews, and dubbed "Purim Saragossa." A Hebrew Megillah (scroll) was penned, describing the details of the miraculous story. To this day, this scroll is read in certain communities on Purim Saragossa." I find it really interesting that these are celebrated the same day... one Christian and the other Jewish about being spared from looming danger. Read more: unsealed.boards.net/thread/1341/groundhog-day#ixzz55vIdCAOQ |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 0:35:30 GMT -6
Let's look at Option B above. “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." Luke 21:20-24 This doesn't jive with Revelation 12 at all. Desolation has come near. The people will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations. Israel doesn't win this one... this is not the same event as Revelation 12. Conclusion Option A: This has already happened at some point which I am not familiar with, in which case we don't need to try to make Luke 21 fit.Conclusion Option B: This is Zechariah 14 (which I take to be the last battle at the very end of the tribulation) EDIT: Conclusion option C: This is another passage of scripture with which I am not familiar. Zechariah 14 says Jerusalem will be plundered and the women raped, and half of the people will go into exile. Then Jesus will descend on the Mount of Olives with His holy ones (which I take as us coming back from heaven with Him). I am wondering whether the half who are not taken into exile are those who flee according to Jesus' command in Luke. ..... Just want to second this. According to A.Fruchtenbaum the scripture in Luke describes the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple around 70AD. I think he is right on this. The scriptures in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are often intermingled, but I think they have (at least partly) different scopes. Especially the emboldened phrase in Luke makes this clear in my eyes. The trampling of Jerusalem is obviously being fulfilled since 70AD. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 6:21:49 GMT -6
I have been thinking about this, and I think you’re right. This makes the most sense wth the “time of the Gentiles part” if this were to be talking about 70 AD.We usually associate “time of the Gentiles” with the rapture based on Romans 11. So if Jerusalem is trampled “UNTIL the time of the Gentiles is complete”, it would be “until the time of the rapture.”
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My pastor, a covenant guy, laughed in my face when I told him about the Rev 12 sign. And we are friends. He got angry when I told Him that God was speaking to us and we needed to throw out our preconceived ideas and see what He might be saying. My friend thought I was accusing him of not giving due diligence to the scriptures and arriving at his model of the end flippantly. On the contrary, he is a faithful and brilliant scholar. But I submitted to him, and I submit to you as well, that these things have been sealed and we cannot understand them fully until they begin to unfold. What is unfolding now is not peace and a temple... it’s war. Thankfully God comes to the aid of Israel and protects those who worship rightfully in the altar.
