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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 6:50:22 GMT -6
I have been thinking about this, and I think you’re right. This makes the most sense with the “time of the Gentiles part” if this were to be talking about 70 AD.We usually associate “time of the Gentiles” with the rapture based on Romans 11. So if Jerusalem is trampled “UNTIL the time of the Gentiles is complete”, it would be “until the time of the rapture.” Agreed. For the sake of completeness I cite the scripture here: Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
We hope, that this coincides with the rapture, but we will see. But it would make much sense! |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 9:21:01 GMT -6
I agree that these are not necessarily the same. We usually equate the time of the Gentiles with the rapture, but it may not be. Thank you for the scripture and filling in my holes @stephan.
Connecting Luke 21 with Romans 11 though... Israel is blind and Jerusalem is trampled until the fullness of the Gentiles, whenever that may be. It seems like Luke 21 was fulfilled in 70 AD and the trampling continues to this day.
So now we need to discuss Matthew 24 and how that relates to Revelatuon 12. I appreciate everyone’s thoughts!
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2018 12:12:04 GMT -6
Here is Rev 12:5-6
She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days").
And Rev 12:12-14
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
Taking these two passages together, it seems that she is persecuted by the dragon from the time he is cast down, after the birth, until she flees....the abomination of Matthew 24 being the signal.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 13:21:26 GMT -6
Here is Rev 12:5-6 She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days"). And Rev 12:12-14 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Taking these two passages together, it seems that she is persecuted by the dragon from the time he is cast down, after the birth, until she flees....the abomination of Matthew 24 being the signal. So then it reads like this?: She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. ----------Gap of 3.5 years--------------
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days"). EDIT: This means the "persecuted/pursued" (words are used equally amongst different translations) is a persecution of peace for 3.5 years until the ultimate act of physically chasing the woman? EDIT 2: This would also mean that the Ezekiel 38 alliance which we see in place now does not act for at least 3.5 years. I am definitely not a war nor Middle East expert, but Amir and JF Farag seem to be saying that these things have a shelf life and do not keep. That the prophetic ball keeps moving once it starts rolling. Should we look at this alliance which has been formed but not expect anything to proceed for at least 3.5 years? |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 13:32:20 GMT -6
Something just jumped out at me... I have never seen a translation with "THEY should feed her there 1260 days" since I usually read ESV which only says "in which she is to be nourished". But the "they" seems appropriate from the Greek. Who is the "they"? The 2 witnesses from chapter 11?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2018 13:47:28 GMT -6
Sorry for jumping in with another question...
Is anyone here familiar with the teachings of Kevin J.Conner?
Especially the book "The Christian Millenium"?
Just found an archived discussion on the Rev12 sign on dailycrow, where one commenter noted some interesting theological points.
It seems that KJC proposed exactly the theory, we are discussing here...
(Nothing new under the sun...?)
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 13:50:34 GMT -6
No, I am not familiar with him. Tell us more!
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2018 14:26:22 GMT -6
Here is Rev 12:5-6 She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days"). And Rev 12:12-14 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is to be nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Taking these two passages together, it seems that she is persecuted by the dragon from the time he is cast down, after the birth, until she flees....the abomination of Matthew 24 being the signal. So then it reads like this?: She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. ----------Gap of 3.5 years--------------
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days"). EDIT: This means the "persecuted/pursued" (words are used equally amongst different translations) is a persecution of peace for 3.5 years until the ultimate act of physically chasing the woman? EDIT 2: This would also mean that the Ezekiel 38 alliance which we see in place now does not act for at least 3.5 years. I am definitely not a war nor Middle East expert, but Amir and JF Farag seem to be saying that these things have a shelf life and do not keep. That the prophetic ball keeps moving once it starts rolling. Should we look at this alliance which has been formed but not expect anything to proceed for at least 3.5 years? What do you mean "persecution of peace"? From the idea that there is a seven year peace treaty? One idea I had (and maybe others also) is that the Ezekiel war happens and God shows Himself in a mighty way thus signaling that He is back to dealing with Israel. As tense as it is in the ME, I don't think they will wait another 3.5 years, but I'm not an expert either. |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2018 14:29:07 GMT -6
Something just jumped out at me... I have never seen a translation with "THEY should feed her there 1260 days" since I usually read ESV which only says "in which she is to be nourished". But the "they" seems appropriate from the Greek. Who is the "they"? The 2 witnesses from chapter 11? That is from the NKJV. I had previously been reading the ESV, but recently got a new Bible and it's NKJV. I thought it was interesting, too. I was thinking two witnesses or They as in the Trinity, or maybe birds like Elijah (I think that's the right guy). It's a bit vague. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 14:35:21 GMT -6
So then it reads like this?: She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. ----------Gap of 3.5 years--------------
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days"). EDIT: This means the "persecuted/pursued" (words are used equally amongst different translations) is a persecution of peace for 3.5 years until the ultimate act of physically chasing the woman? EDIT 2: This would also mean that the Ezekiel 38 alliance which we see in place now does not act for at least 3.5 years. I am definitely not a war nor Middle East expert, but Amir and JF Farag seem to be saying that these things have a shelf life and do not keep. That the prophetic ball keeps moving once it starts rolling. Should we look at this alliance which has been formed but not expect anything to proceed for at least 3.5 years? One idea I had (and maybe others also) is that the Ezekiel war happens and God shows Himself in a mighty way thus signaling that He is back to dealing with Israel. As tense as it is in the ME, I don't think they will wait another 3.5 years, but I'm not an expert either. Yes... if there is to be a peace treaty with peace for 3.5 years until the AofD, then this “persecuting/pursuing” would have to take on the definition of “plotting”. Like the dragon “plotted against the woman for 3.5 years in peace and then pursued her.” That just really doesn’t seem to make sense to me, nor is it what the word “pursue/persecute” means. This is why I feel like what we have been expecting to happen is not making sense. |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2018 14:38:31 GMT -6
But couldn't there still be persecution during peace? For example, Christians being persecuted today in areas that are not at war.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 14:39:56 GMT -6
So then it reads like this?: She bore a male child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and His throne. ----------Gap of 3.5 years--------------
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. (ESV says "in which she is to be nourished for 1260 days"). EDIT: This means the "persecuted/pursued" (words are used equally amongst different translations) is a persecution of peace for 3.5 years until the ultimate act of physically chasing the woman? EDIT 2: This would also mean that the Ezekiel 38 alliance which we see in place now does not act for at least 3.5 years. I am definitely not a war nor Middle East expert, but Amir and JF Farag seem to be saying that these things have a shelf life and do not keep. That the prophetic ball keeps moving once it starts rolling. Should we look at this alliance which has been formed but not expect anything to proceed for at least 3.5 years? What do you mean "persecution of peace"? From the idea that there is a seven year peace treaty? One idea I had (and maybe others also) is that the Ezekiel war happens and God shows Himself in a mighty way thus signaling that He is back to dealing with Israel. As tense as it is in the ME, I don't think they will wait another 3.5 years, but I'm not an expert either. This makes a lot of sense. I have been wondering what would show Israel that God is turning His attention to them. Am I understanding you correctly that you agree then that the Ezekiel 38 war will happen at the beginning, that Israel will flee, and that God will rescue her? That the fleeing of Revelation 12 is not at Day 1260 but rather at Day 1? |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 14:42:33 GMT -6
But couldn't there still be persecution during peace? For example, Christians being persecuted today in areas that are not at war. Yes, definitely. But if you look up the Greek word on Bible hub, it has a meaning of “to force to flee” or “to chase”. It doesn’t seem to mean “to plot against secretly”. It seems to mean an open, visible persecution. |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 2, 2018 14:48:11 GMT -6
Something just jumped out at me... I have never seen a translation with "THEY should feed her there 1260 days" since I usually read ESV which only says "in which she is to be nourished". But the "they" seems appropriate from the Greek. Who is the "they"? The 2 witnesses from chapter 11? That is from the NKJV. I had previously been reading the ESV, but recently got a new Bible and it's NKJV. I thought it was interesting, too. I was thinking two witnesses or They as in the Trinity, or maybe birds like Elijah (I think that's the right guy). It's a bit vague.It’s a bit vague like the “he” of Daniel 9:27 😊 i would think the “they” would need to be someone previously mentioned and not refer to ravens or something that have never been mentioned before (although that is an interesting idea... I forgot that story!). I feel like this is indeed vague so looking at the last time Israel was in the wilderness for a pattern seems to make the most sense. Especially with the “wings of an eagle” referring back to Exodus 19 and all of the other parallels we see here like being chased by an army and being saved in a huge way like the Red Sea. |
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Post by Natalie on Feb 2, 2018 14:50:33 GMT -6
After the war, EZ 38:23 "Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD."
My thinking is that the war is at the beginning, then they are persecuted for a time, they flee when the Abomination is set up, God directs them to the wilderness where He takes care of them for 1260 days. So, I don't know how many days are between the war and the Abomination. Somewhere around 3.5 years, but I am open to other ideas.
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