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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 8:29:13 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 8:32:10 GMT -6
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Post by fitz on Sept 5, 2018 8:34:02 GMT -6
Sept 5, 2018 8:57:22 GMT -4 @natalie said: I see them as two separate entities. I do not think the Trib saints are considered part of the church. The church age ends with the rapture. Sure, they are believers, just like OT saints are believers. But neither are part of the Bride of Christ. One thing on my to do list is to look at Scripture to see what the roles are of each group after the Second Coming. Rev 7:9-17 seems to say that the Trib Saints will spend their time sheltered and serving around the throne of God. I do not believe that will be the role of the church. I know what I've been taught about the Church, but I want to be able to back it up with Scriptures before posting ideas.
The trib saints will also "rule and reign" with Christ during the Millennium, but you are correct. These are a distinct set of believers...not the Church which is set apart from all other believers. We (the Church) are special for eternity because we accepted the offer of grace during this age.
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Post by fitz on Sept 5, 2018 8:41:42 GMT -6
This poses a serious question:
Why then does Revelation speaks of Trib saints AND of the church as obviously separate entities?
Or in other words: why doesn't Revelation use a single wording to describe this entity?
The Philadelphia church can avoid the hour of testing. What of the other 5? I say 5 out of 7 knowing the other had been given good remarks. Of the 5, they are still the church though they have erred for Christ sayeth whoever is for me is not against me. Therefore, these 5 are to go thru the time of sorrow and testing to refine them. They are part of the body yet need to be made white thru the fire. ONLY the blood of Jesus makes us white. Fire and testing (going through the tribulation) won't do it. It's faith in Christ, be it the Church (and why we do not go through the tribulation) or the trib saints (who do). It's not their "passing the test" or "being refined through the fire"...it's faith in Jesus.
It isn't the refinement, it's the Refiner: Of the trib saints...
Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
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Post by rt on Sept 5, 2018 8:42:49 GMT -6
venge said: So let's look at what scripture says: First we have the passages from Daniel that I posted above, then we also have these passages: Then you have the parable in Luke which alludes to the faithful saints being having authority over cities, this reward is given upon the nobleman's return. Please see the whole parable for context Luke 19:11-27 also this passage, showing that the tribulation saints are raised at the end of the 70th week and are to rule with Christ for the Millennial reign (1000 years): finally we see that the Kingdom is handed back over to the Father after the Millennial reign: So the saints take possession of the Kingdom with Christ, We are His kingdom, that is what the New song that the elders and creatures sing says, He made us to be a kingdom. We along with the tribulation saints and the disciples will share in Christ's millennial rule. At the end of the 1000 years the kingdom is handed back to the Father. Jesus reigns until the last enemy is abolished, the last enemy is death, which we know is abolished here: So to answer your post, I think my original analysis was correct, Here's a short and generalized outline of what I believe the scripture teaches regarding who reigns in the Kingdom of God and when they do The Godhead (eternity past- until Christ relinquishes His heavenly throne to become a man on earth) The Son (Church age) The Son with the saints (Millennial Kingdom) The Father (Post Millennium- eternity)
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Post by rt on Sept 5, 2018 9:12:26 GMT -6
I see them as two separate entities. I do not think the Trib saints are considered part of the church. The church age ends with the rapture. Sure, they are believers, just like OT saints are believers. But neither are part of the Bride of Christ. One thing on my to do list is to look at Scripture to see what the roles are of each group after the Second Coming. Rev 7:9-17 seems to say that the Trib Saints will spend their time sheltered and serving around the throne of God. I do not believe that will be the role of the church. I know what I've been taught about the Church, but I want to be able to back it up with Scriptures before posting ideas. Natalie, Good morning sister! I suppose the question should be if you believe they are not the church, when does God stop accepting souls for him? Does he stop in the seals? Does he stop in the trumpets? Does he stop in the bowls? Does he stop during the millennium kingdom? So this is an interesting idea, which I touch on in my study here unsealed.boards.net/thread/283/resurrection-harvestI tend to agree with Natalie, the church has a distinction, they are considered the body of Christ, they are literally identified as being Christ by Christ Himself when He speaks to Paul on the Damascus road, saying "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting Me?"This does not mean that others don't "belong" to Christ too, it just means that they are not part of the church, the body of Christ. If you look at the order of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15, you have Christ the first fruits, those that are His at His coming, and those at the end. Three distinct separate resurrections for three different groups. I see the first group as including not just Christ the head, but the body as well. Just like many see the male child in Revelation 12 as being Christ the head and His body. We are born into heaven in Christ. The Old Testament saints had faith in the promises, believing that one day a savior would come and that they would inherit New Jerusalem. The were not part of the body of Christ, they were not considered the church, yet they are saved, by the atoning blood of Christ just the same: God accepts all those who seek Him and find Him. Not just those considered to be the Church. The Church makes up only a portion of the Kindgom, The OT saints are also part of the kingdom along with the martyrs of the Tribulation as well as those faithful who will reside on earth in earthly Jerusalem during the Millennial reign. The atoning sacrifice is what makes it possible for any to enter into the heavenly Kingdom of New Jerusalem. The children that enter have different names, but they all have the same mother. They are all grafted into the Olive tree of faith in Jesus Christ. They are all considered "Saints". That is the picture we see in Revelation 12, the Male child is caught up to heaven,Christ first as the head, followed by His body at the harpazo. The dragon is enraged with the woman, who flees into the safety of the wilderness where she is protected and the dragon is cast out of heaven and then he makes war with the rest of her children. These children would be what we call the tribulation saints. The beast is given authority to make war against the saints and to overcome them, this authority is limited to 42 months (Rev 13). So you have the woman who has a male child, and then you have the rest of her children. Many children- same mother. Please see the Link above for a more thorough explanation and decide for yourself if it has merit.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 5, 2018 10:31:53 GMT -6
I see them as two separate entities. I do not think the Trib saints are considered part of the church. The church age ends with the rapture. Sure, they are believers, just like OT saints are believers. But neither are part of the Bride of Christ. One thing on my to do list is to look at Scripture to see what the roles are of each group after the Second Coming. Rev 7:9-17 seems to say that the Trib Saints will spend their time sheltered and serving around the throne of God. I do not believe that will be the role of the church. I know what I've been taught about the Church, but I want to be able to back it up with Scriptures before posting ideas. Natalie, Good morning sister! I suppose the question should be if you believe they are not the church, when does God stop accepting souls for him? Does he stop in the seals? Does he stop in the trumpets? Does he stop in the bowls? Does he stop during the millennium kingdom? Good morning, venge! I would think that it would be at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. According to Rev 20, after the 1000 years Satan is completely defeated and judgment of the dead takes place. Death is then done away with and the new heaven and new earth come. My understanding is that there will be no marriage, new people (babies), no death, no sin in the new heaven and new earth. Those who live there are the ones that belong to Christ; the ones written in His book of life. I have an idea of who lives where, but it goes back to my previous post that those things are on my to do list.
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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 12:11:45 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 12:48:32 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 12:49:58 GMT -6
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Post by rt on Sept 5, 2018 12:57:13 GMT -6
venge- You are most welcome, it is my pleasure!
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 5, 2018 14:23:38 GMT -6
every time you post rt you are giving me fodder my thread on the 144,000 you said this: Regarding the first fruit & trib saints? her quote above IS the same timeline portrayed in Chapter 14 which to me is its own grouping and vision that is an elaboration of Ch 7. Ch 7 which comes about within the Seals shows us the same order: first fruits, then the multitudes can come. Ch 7 shows a preview: One being a sealed group and the other coming out of a tribulation...notice that in Ch 14 we get more detail, but there is a third group...but the third group is a result of the Winepress.. this is my mini-timeline or progression to the filling up the Kingdom with the Sealed then the Saints and then those who come out of the wrath... You are making a very key proof text to Chapter 14 with this reminder from Corinth: 1 Corinthians 15:22–28
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
Rev 14 ...These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.Notice in Ch 7 we have the number that John hears who are sealed and then there is the multitude while the angels are holding back the 4 winds. ... and John even says in Ch 7 after the hearing who are the Sealed, he says After this, behold, I saw a multitude Same story as what Chapter 14 elaborates on...yet this time he is seeing it. and it is described as being with Jesus standing on the mount Zion, with the first fruits. A gospel then is preached from midheaven...hmmmm...and the earth is ripe for what I would describe as the Wheat harvest... That is all I am going to say right now because the focus that I want to key in on is on the timeframe order of events that Paul mentions in 1Cor. that rt reminded us of, along with her reminding us that the firstfruits take possession with Christ and then the remainder of the Kingdom order of events. I believe these kingdom teachings are the very Gospel Jesus himself before His death was trying to explain thru the parables. The New Covenant displayed in Chapter 4/5 and the songs that get sung thruout the book of Revelation may just be the thing to look for in keeping Revelation in its proper order...
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Post by fitz on Sept 5, 2018 18:54:08 GMT -6
ONLY the blood of Jesus makes us white. Fire and testing (going through the tribulation) won't do it. It's faith in Christ, be it the Church (and why we do not go through the tribulation) or the trib saints (who do). It's not their "passing the test" or "being refined through the fire"...it's faith in Jesus.
It isn't the refinement, it's the Refiner: Of the trib saints...
Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.
Fire and testing wont make us white? I respectfully disagree. Fire and testing wont do it? You may say, this verse above is not talking about Daniels 70th week but after that time as some do...ok..if that is the case...What was said to Daniel? That will be done during the 70th week as per the angel. Christ suffered persecution, prison, slander, flogging, false witness, death and the list goes on....That is tribulation in its true form. That is an example of the time of sorrow, not just the great tribulation. God gave Satan permission to inflict Job with disease and massive burdens and removing his possessions (Job 1:12). Was this God's wrath of his testing? You will say but Job didn't have Christ. And I will say but God chastises those that he loves. You will say but we are not for wrath and I will say that isn't wrath. Look at what he said in Revelation 3:18 to the church that erred. How about Psalm 66:10-12 Are you suggesting that Christian's are in need of no testing or correction once they have faith and are saved? Paul, a Christian thought we could still go through it... That is not to say we will undergo wrath but who is to say the time of sorrow is His wrath? For if it is not His wrath, then we will go through it. Paul still was beaten, mocked, spat on, accused, banished, put in prison and died as well. And he had Christ. Why are you different than those, like Paul and other Christians, that suffered greatly? Why is it today you or others think they should not be persecuted like Paul with prison time, beaten, persecuted and death? Did Paul need testing?Venge, respectufully, Christians do and have experienced persecution, trials and testing for the past 2000 years. However, no Christian has been required to go through the worst time (even the first half) that has ever been on this earth. The entire 7 years is God’s judgment of the wicked and unbelieving. The last half, God’s ultimate wrath. The Church is not appointed to suffer under the judgments of God, none of them. The Church is saved before the tribulation begins, but the saints that come to Christ after the rapture will have to endure it.
But our God is One who saves His people from the judgments that He sends on the wicked. Time and again we see the types and shadows that inform us as to His character regarding this. Enoch and Elijah were raptured.
Noah – I doubt he even got wet. Saved through judgment (a picture of Israel during the 7 years).
Lot – probably the weakest example of a believer in all the bible. Escaped judgment. A picture of the raptured Church.
The Exodus, Rahab, Esther…
All protected from judgment/destruction/evil. Why, because they believed in God.
Job is a poor example for what is coming on this earth. God allowed Satan to sift him to root out his pridefulness. The sifting was extreme, but I doubt you can find many more examples of this level of suffering, which was to drive home a point. This was not the judgment of God on wickedness. It was a trial that God allowed. And He warned Satan not to take his life (many tribulation saints will lose their lives during the tribulation). God considered Job to be a righteous man, said he was “blameless”. He just needed a little correction. The tribulation is not a little correction for righteous believers, its judgment for a wicked and unbelieving world. And its primary purpose is to open the blind eyes of His people, Israel, that they would finally recognize Jesus, their Messiah. What purpose/part does the Church have in that?
MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY salvationnoun sal·va·tion \ sal-ˈvā-shən \ Definition of salvation 1 a : deliverance from the power and effects of sin b : the agent or means that effects salvation 2 : liberation from ignorance or illusion 3 a : preservation from destruction or failure b : deliverance from danger or difficulty Jesus didn’t die for us to be judged with the wicked. He is our Deliverer. And He delivers OUT of tribulation.
Psalm 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
Genesis 18:25 Surely you wouldn't do such a thing, destroying the righteous along with the wicked. Why, you would be treating the righteous and the wicked exactly the same! Surely you wouldn't do that! Should not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?"
And you have nothing to offer God by going through the tribulation that Jesus didn’t already pay for. Your Justification, sanctification and glorification are a work of God, and it is finished. Finished by Christ on the cross, finished the day you trusted Him for salvation. Trials in this life serve to refine our faith and strengthen our trust in God, but they are not intended to crush us or certainly not kill us! They are not punishments! Like with Job, correction, not judgment. This coming period is about judgment!
1 Thessalonians 5:9 9 For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Psalm 91:9-16
If you make the Most High your dwelling — even the LORD, who is my refuge — [10] then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent. [11] For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; [12] they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. [13] You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. [14] “Because he loves me,” says the LORD, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. [15] He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. [16] With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.”
Proverbs 12:21
No harm befalls the righteous, but the wicked have their fill of trouble.
Jesus tells us to watch for Him. He did not tell us to watch for the beginning of the 70th week, tribulation, or the Anti-Christ. We are watching and waiting for Jesus.
You can stay here for the tribulation if you like, but wouldn’t you rather come to heaven with the rest of us?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2018 6:48:49 GMT -6
This poses a serious question: Why then does Revelation speaks of Trib saints AND of the church as obviously separate entities?
Or in other words: why doesn't Revelation use a single wording to describe this entity?
John writing does not refer to the saints that die as tribulation saints. That word was created to refer to those believers that walk with Christ during the time of sorrow before the greater tribulation. But make no mistake, they are saints and they are believers therefore they are of the church. .... Granted. The name tribulation saints comes from the interpretation, that the church is removed then and to make a distinction between both groups of saints. Of course this depends strongly on the dispensational interpretation of Revelation.
said: ... When the 5th seal is broken their prayers go to God asking him for vengeance against the wicked. God listens and in the trumpets he agrees to their prayers hence the 7th seal. ...
Where in the bible does Jesus command the church to pray for vengeance? As far as I remember the church (that's us) is called to offer the other cheek.
And as fitz stated, I also don't subscribe to the argument that the believers must definitely suffer persecution.
Just another facet of this issue:
Of course, the bible (Jesus included) clearly states, that Jesus' followers will suffer persecution. I agree 100%
The church suffered persecution all history long and since her birth.
If we ask some brethren in the Orient or NK or .... I'm sure they regard themselves as being more or less severly persecuted (very likely more).
But when would you acknowledge that the level of persecution is high enough for Jesus to come back or to speak of persecution at all or that the church/we are going thru persecution/trib?
How do you define persecution?
Does persecution start with beheading or being killed or being slapped?
Or are we already speaking of persecution if Christians are forbidden to speak of the gospel? Persecution can also be sensed as such if we are being laughed at because of our faith.
It's IMO also an issue of statistics. Somewhere in the world you will always find some Christians who are not being persecuted at all while others suffer severe persecution. How do we define the tipping point that allows us of speaking of that "the church/believers" are being persecuted?
90%? 99.9% or simply the majority 50.01%?
Just asking....
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Post by venge on Sept 6, 2018 13:25:16 GMT -6
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