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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 8:21:50 GMT -6
I would like to share some study I have done on these passages.
Just what is happening here?
John is caught up into the throne room of God. This is in the heavenly temple, the heavenly holy of holies.
Here John describes for us what he sees in this throne room.
the throne of God seven lamps of fire a crystal-like sea the four living creatures (Cherabim) 24 elders sitting on thrones wearing golden crowns
We know from scripture that the heavenly tabernacle served as the pattern for the earthly one.
According to Hebrews 8 the earthly temple AND its priests served as both a copy and a shadow of heavenly things. I have discussed my views on the 24 elders elsewhere so will not go into detail here about that, only to say that I do not see them as the raptured church, but rather as spiritual entities that served as the copy and shadow of what was on earth at the time of Christ in the earthly temple, namely the 24 family divisions of the priesthood. The 24 elders represent a heavenly council of high priests.
The heavenly temple and the earthly one are connected
All that John saw, had an earthly counterpart, ( see Exodus 36-38) the seven lamps of fire, served as the pattern for the 7 branched lampstand, the crystal sea was the pattern for the brazen laver (which in Solomon's temple was actually called the "sea"). The Cherabim are the pattern for the gold cherabim that were made to sit on the mercy seat. John later also mentions the altar of incense, which was also in the earthly temple. And as I said the 24 elders served as the pattern of the family divisions of priests from which the high priests were selected on a rotating basis (see 1 Chronicles 24).
These heavenly high priests (and by the way the earthly high priests wore golden crowns as they served in the temple) cast their crowns; not victor's crowns but crowns of authority granted to them for a time; before the throne of God in subjection to to His authority, praising Him and giving glory to Him as the creator of all things.
So John is called up into the heavenly tabernacle, where the seat of God's throne is.
Cont'd....
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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 8:38:53 GMT -6
There is a lot here in this passage. First we see God the father (Him who sits on the throne) holding in His hand the sealed scroll. John is distraught over the idea that no one anywhere (heaven,earth or under the earth) is able to open the scroll, and the reason is that no one has been found worthy to do so. But then one of the elders says that the Lion of Judah (an Old testament description of Christ) overcame, which makes Him worthy to now look into the book.
Then immediately we see the Lamb standing as if slain (A New Testament description of Christ) before the throne. Which we know to be Jesus. What has happened here? What made the Lion of Judah, who we also know to be Jesus, worthy to open the scroll? He overcame. The question is what did He overcome?
But before we discover what He overcame let's talk about when He did so:
Jesus says that he overcame and sat down with His father on His throne, this is an event from John's past not the future. When did this happen?
When He made purification of sins, after He was crucified.
So what did Jesus overcome?
How did He overcome the world?
He died for our sins and subjected angels and authorities and powers to Him,(overcame the world) then was raised to heaven and is now at the right hand of God.
So when John describes the Lamb standing as if slain enter into the heavenly tabernacle, he is describing Christ after His crucifixion, resurrected into the throne room of God. This is why He is described as standing as if slain. He has just been crucified and has subjected the angels, powers and authorities to Himself and now He is prepared to take the scroll and His place on the throne at the right hand of the Father. This event is not a future event, the Lamb will never again enter the throne room of heaven as if slain, as Peter says He dies once for the sins of all.
There are other indications in the passage that demonstrate what John witnesses is the initiation of the New Covenant era and not a future event.
cont'd....
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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 8:50:54 GMT -6
There are other indications in the passage that demonstrate what John witnesses is the initiation of the New Covenant era and not a future event.
We saw earlier how the seven spirits of God were described as seven lamps of fire. Under the Old Covenant In the earthly tabernacle, these seven spirits served as the pattern for the golden Lampstand that was in the wilderness tabernacle(Exodus 25:31-40). But after the lamb enters we now see that the description of these seven spirits is different:
So we see right here a change in the working of the Holy Spirit, no longer described as seven lamps of fire before the throne, but now they are seven horns and eyes on the head of the Lamb that was slain, sent out into all the earth.
Peter in his sermon at Pentecost explains how the words of the prophet Joel were being fulfilled that day, remember the Holy Spirit had just descended, appearing as what?....flames of fire (seven lamps of fire):
Then Peter explains to the crowd what was happening:
So we see that this different description of the seven spirits of God in the revelation demonstrates that the New Covenant era has just begun.
Not only this but John also goes on to describe the "New Song" :
We see that the "new song" reiterates why Jesus was able to take the book, because He was slain and purchased men with His blood. This is a confirmation that what John had just witnessed was Jesus entering heaven after His crucifixion and resurrection. This is the song of the New Covenant, men from every tribe, tongue and nation, no longer just the nation of Israel, but the gentiles as well. They have been made into a kingdom of priests who will one day (in the future) reign on earth.
John early in the Revelation opens with this:
He says that Jesus released us from our sins by His blood and He has (past tense) made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, an event from John's past, which was fulfilled when Jesus entered the heavenly tabernacle as the Lamb that was slain to make atonement for our sins. (See Hebrews 9+10)
Now if I am correct, then this event that John witnesses is not a future event, but one from John's past (and ours) and is the initiation of the New Covenant era and the birth of the church, which would exclude the 24 elders from being the church because they are shown to be around the throne before the Lamb enters as if slain, before the New Covenant era begins.
Therefore as I have previously stated I believe these 24 elders to serve as a heavenly council of High priests who serve as the pattern for the 24 divisions of priests in the earthly temple. We know from scripture that the earthly tabernacle and temple were patterned after the heavenly tabernacle. So this assumption is reasonable.
They cast their crowns (of authority) off and bow before the throne of God, but after the lamb enters as if slain, then they focus their attention on Him, now falling down before Him and singing the new song of the new covenant. They tell us the reason that the Lamb is now worthy to open the seals of the scroll that He took from the creator, His father. The reason that the events of the end times can begin to unfold, because the lamb has redeemed all mankind.
He is now the perfect High Priest who has entered into the heavenly tabernacle just as Hebrews explains:
This event will not ever happen again, as scripture tells us, Christ died once for all. So never again will Christ enter the throne room as a lamb that was slain.
Cont'd...
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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 8:57:32 GMT -6
John hears this amazing event, innumerable voices of angels along with the elders and living creatures proclaiming with a loud voice praises to the Lamb and to Him who is on the throne. Christ has taken His seat and His kingdom is beginning to be established on earth.
Matthew gives an account of the words of Jesus after He was resurrected, he says the following:
Peter also tells us in 1 Peter 3: 22 that Jesus had “gone into heaven after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.”
When Christ died and was resurrected He subjected all authority and power to Himself, He began to reign over the earth, but this will not be fully accomplished until the heavenly Kingdom presides over all mankind. His entrance into heaven paves the way for the kingdom to reside on earth; the praise of every created thing in heaven and on the earth is in view of the completion of the Kingdom, an event yet in the future.
Every created thing will give praise and honor to God and to the Lamb, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Clearly this has not occurred on the face of the earth to date, it is a future event yet to occur; when Christ begins His visible reign on earth and all of mankind and every living thing will acknowledge Him as Lord. Zechariah speaks about the worship of the Lord during the millennial reign:
The prophet Daniel records a vision that appears to correlate to John’s vision. Daniel had just received a vision of four beasts that will rule over Jerusalem/ Israel with the fourth beast causing great concern for him. This final kingdom possessed ten horns, and a little horn (the Antichrist)that uproots three horns and utters great blasphemous boasts against God and His people. In the vision he also records the following:
This passage is often interpreted to represent Christ’s visible future return to earth, but that is not exactly what the passage says. The One like a Son of Man, is a vision of Jesus Christ, He is described as coming up to the ancient of days; God the Father; with the clouds, to be presented before Him. I believe that this is not a vision of Christ’s return to earth, but rather a vision of Christ’s resurrection and ascension to the heavenly tabernacle that initiated the New Covenant.
Just as John received a vision of Christ entering heaven and standing before God’s throne, so too Daniel receives a similar vision of Christ entering heaven to receive His kingdom. Christ’s death and resurrection is a pivotal event that makes the fulfillment of Daniel’s seventy weeks prophecy possible. It is a turning point in history when the eternal Kingdom is handed over to the Son, Jesus Christ, the Lamb that was slain. Daniel goes on in his vision to explain when that kingdom is given over to the saints:
The saints receive the Kingdom after the “Ancient of days came”; when Christ returns to earth at the end of the 70th week of Daniel after the tribulation, and after the court sits for judgment and takes away the dominion of the “little horn” or Antichrist, just as the Revelation describes in chapters nineteen and twenty.
Cont'd...
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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 9:16:20 GMT -6
So this study is a prequel to my study on the revised view of a pre-trib rapture found here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-raptureIt provides further explanation of why I believe what I posted in that thread. If I am correct, and the events John witnesses in Chapter 4 and 5 are events from his past, then it is possible that Jesus removed these four seals already, soon after He assumed His throne. I am pretty convinced that the event John witnessed was the heavenly transition from the old covenant era to the new. In fact once I saw it, I couldn't believe how obvious it is. Seeing things this way really threw a wrench into what I was always taught via the traditional pre trib view. Since the days of Nelson Darby who lived in the 1800's whose ideas served as the foundation for what has been and still is commonly taught as the pre trib view, not many biblical scholars have really delved into the study of these passages. They simply regurgitate what has always been the prevailing interpretation. Seeing this for the first time is one of the things that drove me to study prophecy. I may be right and I may be wrong, I am not dogmatic about my understanding. I look forward to your comments and criticisms.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 10:38:32 GMT -6
I look forward to reading through what you have posted more closely when I have more time. It does make sense that the scene around the throne is mirrored in what is on earth. We have been studying Exodus on Sundays, and God is so precise in what He tells Moses to build concerning the tabernacle and it's furnishings. Maybe that is one of the reasons...because they are copies of the things in heaven.
I'm not sure how 4 and 5 being in the past fits with this verse: "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." 1:19. How would you divide Revelation to accomplish those divisions? Also taking into account 4:1.
I see how it could be from the past; it does make sense, but I am not convinced that Jesus took Him to heaven to show Him the past when it says it's what comes next.?
I guess my main questions would be "When does it go back to future things? and How do you know?"
We are getting ready to study Revelation in Sunday morning Bible study, so this next comment may have come from there or from someone here...Chapter 4 is worship of the Father and Chapter 5 is worship of the Son. Looking at it that way, I find it interesting that the Father section shows Him similar to in Exodus - lightning, thunder, fire. The section on the Son is as Lamb slain, ransoming people for God and worthy of worship.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 10:45:31 GMT -6
Here is a note that I had written that made sense to me...When Jesus starts opening the scrolls, He has moved from His priestly role and interceding for the Church to His Kingly role. He's opening seals and making proclamations. He's calling for and sending forth the four horsemen. The Church has been raptured and is no longer needing a High Priest. We are now serving our King. Just like John, we had been called up to the throne of God and will then see our King in action.
He has always been and will always be Prophet, Priest, and King, but it seems that He fills those roles at different times. On earth, He was the Prophet, right now He is our Priest (book of Hebrews), and soon He will rule the earth as King.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 21, 2018 11:13:45 GMT -6
rt You and I are beginning to come into agreement about these two chapters. yeah!! is that Good News?? When you were talking about the Seals way back there were things there that I agreed with, and you got me thinking about the Seals having begun to be opened. We are seeing the thrown room via John's description of what he saw, and when we look at Chapter one and it says: "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
when you are in Hub and look up the context of these key words they mean certain tense/present tense/future tense, and vision-oriented 'horao' meaning metaphorical. John has to see the context of the throne room to understand what is to come! rt, your Holy Spirit description is interesting and we know that Acts gives us the account. This is more reason that things are and have been active all along. I have held to a certain view up to about the fall of 2017, but because of so many people seeing things one way or another, I decided to take off my glasses and consider these counter view points, hear the Lord thur these opposing voices. The result is My personal view point can no longer hold to putting events into blocks or positions or dispensations. For me it have become all about the Kingdom of God taking over and subduing & overcoming the existing kingdom/beast system on earth, nutshell. And it happens on God's clock, not always lining up with the earthly clock. Jesus preached the Gospel BEFORE His work on the cross..what was that? It was about the Kingdom of God. Parable upon parable He taught us.. I love this that you said: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 11:18:50 GMT -6
BSG- How do you see 4:1 then?
The same wording is used in 1:19 and 4:1.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 21, 2018 12:00:05 GMT -6
Hi nat, lets look:
1:19"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
4:1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."
4:1 After this... meta tauto We are coming out of the letters to the churches sections. I dont add any more to that prepostion/pronoun of 4:1 other than John was told of the letters to the churches first then, he got to view the throne room. Who puts in the chapter breaks? I believe Chapters were added by man later..(blueletterbible search)
And, if we look at those letters there is evidence of past tenses and then future tense within them as well: ie: I know of your deeds (things they have done) and to those who overcome (future circumstance)..
Is there something I am not seeing?
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Post by rt on Aug 21, 2018 13:13:46 GMT -6
I look forward to reading through what you have posted more closely when I have more time. It does make sense that the scene around the throne is mirrored in what is on earth. We have been studying Exodus on Sundays, and God is so precise in what He tells Moses to build concerning the tabernacle and it's furnishings. Maybe that is one of the reasons...because they are copies of the things in heaven. I'm not sure how 4 and 5 being in the past fits with this verse: "Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this." 1:19. How would you divide Revelation to accomplish those divisions? Also taking into account 4:1. I see how it could be from the past; it does make sense, but I am not convinced that Jesus took Him to heaven to show Him the past when it says it's what comes next.? I guess my main questions would be "When does it go back to future things? and How do you know?" We are getting ready to study Revelation in Sunday morning Bible study, so this next comment may have come from there or from someone here...Chapter 4 is worship of the Father and Chapter 5 is worship of the Son. Looking at it that way, I find it interesting that the Father section shows Him similar to in Exodus - lightning, thunder, fire. The section on the Son is as Lamb slain, ransoming people for God and worthy of worship. So let's look at what the passage says regarding your question: It might help if I give you an analogy: Let's say that I am about to show you a movie, I tell you that I want you to write down what you see in the movie, to take notes. The film is about the history of the United States of America, it covers the founding, what has happened in the past, what is going on now and what we might expect the future to look like. I start the movie and you watch the first few minutes. As you are watching I remind you as it goes along that you have to make sure write down what you have seen so far, what you are seeing and what you will see in the rest of the film. What you already saw was about the founding father's and the constitution, what you were seeing was about the revolutionary war, what you were going to see that was to take place after these things in the rest of the film, was about the world wars, Korean wars, Vietnam, current events, etc... and on to the speculations of what the future may hold. I remind you that you also need to write about the "things that would take place after these things" what you would see in the rest of the movie some of these things were actually about the past- the wars that our country faced and it would go on to include things about the future. The analogy isn't perfect because John's vision was interactive, he experienced the events he was seeing in his vision, he wasn't just a casual observer. perhaps a better way to look at it would be to imagine if I was able to put you into the movie by means of virtual reality and then to tell you to write down the things that you were seeing and experiencing. John is instructed to write down everything he sees and send it to the seven churches, the things that "you have seen", "which are" and "what will take place"- all pertain to the revelation itself: • what John had seen to that point; is what he wrote down in verses 10-17. • What he was seeing; is what he wrote in verses 18-20. • And what he would see after that point, (or the things which would take place after these things)- which would comprise all the rest of the revelation beginning with Chapter 2 until the end of the Revelation. The Revelation itself is like the "movie". It may talk about things past and future, but what you are to take notes on is the presentation or in John's case the vision of the Revelation. Not all that John would write down concerned future events , it merely pertains to what John would be shown concerning Christ’s return to earth, some things described may have occurred in the past but are relevant to His second coming in the future and are included in the revelation. Therefore when John is told to write what would “take place after these things”, he was being told to write down what would follow concerning the rest of what Jesus was going to reveal to him in his vision, the revelation itself, what he “sees”. Or the rest of the movie. Thankfully John did as he was instructed, he wrote it all down, from the beginning to the end. So that we have it to read today. The Revelation given to John by Jesus, details for us the final weeks of Daniel's vision, the pivotal event that the seventy weeks prophecy hinges on is this: After the letters to the churches, this is where Jesus picks up, in the throne room showing John how this part of the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled which makes the rest of the revelation events possible. Jesus had to be cut off, He had to die to redeem mankind, only then could the scroll be unsealed, only then is it possible for the final week of Daniel's prophecy be fulfilled. There remains one week and that week begins after the church is removed (IMO) when the prince who is to come from among the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the sanctuary makes a firm covenant with the many for one week. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single most crucial event that makes the fulfillment of all other prophetic events possible and is why I believe Jesus shows it to John to have him record it for his posterity. Hope this helps
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 14:18:56 GMT -6
Thank you for your great explanation, rt . What you are saying makes sense. It's slightly different from how I've always seen it. I see 4:1 as saying what happens after the church age not necessarily what happens next in the vision. It's something I will be thinking on.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 14:44:28 GMT -6
Hi nat, lets look: 1:19"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
4:1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."4:1 After this... meta tauto We are coming out of the letters to the churches sections. I dont add any more to that prepostion/pronoun of 4:1 other than John was told of the letters to the churches first then, he got to view the throne room. Who puts in the chapter breaks? I believe Chapters were added by man later..(blueletterbible search) And, if we look at those letters there is evidence of past tenses and then future tense within them as well: ie: I know of your deeds (things they have done) and to those who overcome (future circumstance).. Is there something I am not seeing? RT's response helped me understand how you guys are seeing it differently than I do. I was seeing it as John being shown what happens next after the church age. So, the rapture takes place (demonstrated by John being called to heaven), worship takes place, then Jesus is presented and given the scrolls. He is no longer acting as High Priest but as King. It's not a scene from the past but what is after the rapture--that we will see Him step forward and take the scrolls. Whereas, I think, you guys are saying it's simply what John is shown next. So, even though it happens in the past, John is shown it as what comes after his directions to the churches. I hope I said that clearly. It makes sense in my head now at least. And it definitely could be what he is shown. But where does it transition back to things in the future? Maybe I need to go back and look at RT's other thread.
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Post by fitz on Aug 21, 2018 16:07:49 GMT -6
Here is a note that I had written that made sense to me...When Jesus starts opening the scrolls, He has moved from His priestly role and interceding for the Church to His Kingly role. He's opening seals and making proclamations. He's calling for and sending forth the four horsemen. The Church has been raptured and is no longer needing a High Priest. We are now serving our King. Just like John, we had been called up to the throne of God and will then see our King in action. He has always been and will always be Prophet, Priest, and King, but it seems that He fills those roles at different times. On earth, He was the Prophet, right now He is our Priest (book of Hebrews), and soon He will rule the earth as King. Very astute observation, Natalie. And some would say that as Jesus switches primary roles from High Priest to King, it's the raptured Church that takes over as priests while Jesus is focused on executing the seals as King. Then we become more like kings when we return with Jesus at the end of the Tribulation to rule and reign with Him.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2018 17:43:22 GMT -6
Here is a note that I had written that made sense to me...When Jesus starts opening the scrolls, He has moved from His priestly role and interceding for the Church to His Kingly role. Very astute observation, Natalie. I can't take complete credit for it; I got it from another study I had done on Revelation. (Jack Hibbs maybe) Thinking about our roles is interesting also. No just sitting around on clouds playing harps.
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