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Post by venge on Sept 4, 2018 12:46:49 GMT -6
yeah, it went right over my head venge... got caught up in the dialogs of you and watchman.. thanks for attempting to splash me with a glass of water and get me out of my funk 😇
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Post by rt on Sept 4, 2018 13:00:48 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 4, 2018 13:40:08 GMT -6
Good find! As I said previously, if the 24 elders are the raptured church, why would they exclude themselves by saying “them” and “they”.....it is separating themselves from those who will be raptured and reign.
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Post by Gary on Sept 4, 2018 14:24:20 GMT -6
Oh dear. Don't get me started on Alan Kurschner. No, no, no, it's not a good find. He's fundamentally mistaken about v. 9. I'll simply start with the fact that he is essentially defending the CT against all evidence. That puts his exegesis right up there with KJV-onlyism, probably worse, actually. The MT and TR both agree against Kurschner. And as I stated earlier: there are 23 separate MSS of verse 9. Not a single one of them uses a third person pronoun in this verse. Let me repeat that again: Not a single of them uses a third person pronoun in this verse.22 use "hemas," which means "us." 1 omits the pronoun entirely. The modern translations (e.g. NIV, etc) that Kurschner is pushing actually insert words not found in any MS whatsoever (e.g. "persons", "people", "men"). Is he aware of Revelation 22:18-19? No wonder John's vision contains such a stern warning against such wonky (and careless) textual criticism, because the implications of changing a single word are huge. Now please reread Kurschner's article. Notice two things: 1. He is only dealing with verse 10, and then assumes about verse 9. That's a no, no. He's right that the MS evidence supports "they" in verse 10. I've already clearly pointed that out in my previous posts. 2. He has essentially made a straw-man, targeting KJV-only proponents, but the KJV has nothing to do with it. The TR and MT BOTH have "us". Follow the evidence wherever it leads, even if you have to change your presuppositions—something Kurschner is not willing to do because of his pre-wrath belief. The evidence in verse 9 is clear. Because they are not the only group singing: "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying..." - Rev. 5:8-9a
I honestly don't understand how or why modern translators have so much difficulty with this. In the raw Greek, based on all the evidence, it's "us" in v. 9 and "they/them" in v. 10. But it's like they can't accept that for whatever reason. Perhaps the implications are too profound.
We see direct confirmation that the elders are the Church in v. 9 (and must necessarily represent far more than 24 people since they come from every tribe, people, nation, and language). And then we see further confirmation in v. 10 where the four living creatures confirm that the elders have become kings and priests, thus fulfilling the "already but not yet" of 1 Peter 2:9:
"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
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Post by venge on Sept 4, 2018 14:52:46 GMT -6
Gary, I know you love quoting me brother but we don’t see eye to eye on this. Just like you may see us not going through Tribulation and you seeing literal falling rocks from space or literal demon winged scorpions like out of a movie. I don’t see any of that my friend. I understand the logic you’re showing through translations and proper analysis of the text. But I humbly disagree. It is not just what is in Rev 4 and 5, but the rest of Revelation that agrees where I don’t need to force it to fit. The 24 elders mystery is one for the ages....literally almost 2 thousand years lol
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Post by rt on Sept 4, 2018 16:13:11 GMT -6
GaryI don't know much about Kurschner and his accuracy, I just assumed he knew what he was talking about. If you believe he is unreliable, then I will take your word for it.
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Post by rt on Sept 4, 2018 17:12:41 GMT -6
Is this more in line with what you are saying Gary ? www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-5/revelation-5-9.htmlSnip:So taking into account what these notes say, then it should read like this: In Blue text, parenthesis =word changed, italics = words omitted Is this correct? So if the "us" in verse 9 are the 24 elders along with the 4 living creatures. How is it that the 4 living creatures would be included in those who are redeemed and also come from every tribe tongue and nation? It seems pretty clear to me that both the elders and cherubim sing this song , so something about how this is phrased and interpreted doesn't seem to jive. You could make the argument about the elders being men from earth, but you cannot make that argument about the 4 living creatures. You suggest that the 24 elders sing verse 9, and the creatures sing verse 10? But that is not indicated in the passage and is only assumed in order to make sense of it. What if... and I am just guessing here, but what if what the passage is really saying is that the Lamb that was slain purchased "us" for God, (comma) with your blood from every tribe , tongue and nation..etc... in other words, purchased us and with your blood also purchased mankind? I don't know, either way you look at it it seems problematic. Either way assumptions have to be made and the interpretation is not clear. The other thing I wonder about, is that the elders and creatures have golden bowls of incense that represent the prayers of the saints. Why are they holding the prayers of the saints, if they themselves are the saints? And why do both the elders and creatures hold these prayers of incense? We also see that the 24 elders are mentioned throughout the revelation, and they seem to be primarily mentioned along with the living creatures. While the church is referred to as the Bride. Curiously the elders and creatures are not mentioned after Christ's return to earth with His army. In fact instead of elders on thrones we see this : John sees thrones, and "they" sat on them and judgment is given to them. No mention of elders here, why is that? Who are "they"? Clearly someone different than the elders, otherwise John would have identified them as such. hm?
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Post by rt on Sept 4, 2018 17:23:54 GMT -6
Gary said: Already but not yet? What is "not yet" about us being a chosen people and a royal priesthood? How do you explain what John says earlier in the Revelation: Past tense- Jesus has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father, nothing "not yet" about this statement. I am confused and am not seeing your direct confirmation as clearly as you seem to.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 4, 2018 17:31:01 GMT -6
My question -- Where does the Church go after the Rapture?
John 14:1-4 Isaiah 26:19-21 Rev 21:9
A second question being -- which group will be before God's throne and serve Him?
Rev 7:9-17 (Obviously from this passage the Trib saints and elders are two separate groups)
Interestingly, eventually it seems the throne will move to the New Jerusalem. Rev 22:3 Unless someone can show me or explain that it might be in the New Jerusalem now. It certainly wasn't back in Daniel or Exodus because Jesus went to prepare it after His ascension.
We have two threads going now that discuss the elders. I have been adding my thoughts to the other thread.
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Post by rt on Sept 4, 2018 17:55:42 GMT -6
I know I mentioned this earlier but for emphasis will mention it here again:
I think this is what John is seeing:
The kingdom is handed over to the saints at the end of the 70th week.
So if the elders are the raptured church, and they have taken possession of the kingdom, then the scene that John sees in Chapter five has to be at the end of the 70th week, not before it.
We see here a distinct order of events 1. The fourth beast with it's 11th horn (king) which arises after 10 others, speaks out against the Most High, the saints are given into his hand for three and a half years. 2. A court sits for judgment- taking away the horn's dominion 3. the people of the saints of the highest One are given the kingdom
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Post by Natalie on Sept 4, 2018 18:07:58 GMT -6
rt - I posted Daniel 7:9-10 in the other thread. As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His clothing was white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool... ...a thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him; (the myriad of angels mentioned in Rev 5:11)\ the court sat in judgment, (the elders on their thrones...like the Sanhedrin) and the books were opened.
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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 3:32:45 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Sept 5, 2018 3:55:58 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 4:33:56 GMT -6
My question -- Where does the Church go after the Rapture? John 14:1-4 Isaiah 26:19-21 Rev 21:9 A second question being -- which group will be before God's throne and serve Him? Rev 7:9-17 (Obviously from this passage the Trib saints and elders are two separate groups) Interestingly, eventually it seems the throne will move to the New Jerusalem. Rev 22:3 Unless someone can show me or explain that it might be in the New Jerusalem now. It certainly wasn't back in Daniel or Exodus because Jesus went to prepare it after His ascension. We have two threads going now that discuss the elders. I have been adding my thoughts to the other thread. Don’t forget, the ones you call Tribulation saints are the church. The church is 1 body in Christ, not 2. Those are part of the church. This poses a serious question:
Why then does Revelation speaks of Trib saints AND of the church as obviously separate entities?
Or in other words: why doesn't Revelation use a single wording to describe this entity?
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Post by Natalie on Sept 5, 2018 6:57:22 GMT -6
I see them as two separate entities. I do not think the Trib saints are considered part of the church. The church age ends with the rapture. Sure, they are believers, just like OT saints are believers. But neither are part of the Bride of Christ. One thing on my to do list is to look at Scripture to see what the roles are of each group after the Second Coming. Rev 7:9-17 seems to say that the Trib Saints will spend their time sheltered and serving around the throne of God. I do not believe that will be the role of the church. I know what I've been taught about the Church, but I want to be able to back it up with Scriptures before posting ideas.
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