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Post by venge on Sept 6, 2018 13:41:53 GMT -6
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 15, 2018 0:22:53 GMT -6
But RT, 7:14 says the great multitude are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation. And as I have found while preparing an answer for venge, those on Earth see the sixth seal as God's wrath. The church would be removed before that, right? Hello sister, God sure gave us some riddles in Daniel and Revelation didn't He. I find sometimes we overthink things or latch on to men's traditions and lose focus on God's truths via pigeonholing His vocabulary unintentionally. This is something I took for granted like everyone else, until I started placing Revelation in chronological order, then I realized something was off in Rev. 7:14. How could these people come from the "Great Tribulation" ? Then it came to me, we somehow limited God's description of Great Tribulation to the 70th week, nevermind that Jesus stated we would always have Tribulation, thus the whole 2000 year Church Age was tribulation. And 2000 years is greater than 7, so it is all about whose ox is being gored or what Jesus is speaking about to John in this particular circumstance. So if Rev. 4:1 is symbolic of the Rapture, and I think it is, and Jesus is opening the Seals in Rev. 6 at the Midway point of the 70th week, then the 144,000 in Rev. 7, in my opinion, represents all the Jews who repented, and the Great Multitude in Rev. 7 represents the Bride in Heaven having already married the Lamb. We see the elders in Rev. 4:4 in White Raiment, and in 5:9 we see the Redeemed multitude, so we put these all together and I see Rev. 7:9-17 as the Church/Bride in heaven, having already married the Lamb, thus she came of of the Great Tribulation as in 2000>7. It's not the Greatest Troubles ever per se, but its the 2000 Church Age period which is Greater than the 70th week period. That solves the impasse we have as per who they are. The tribulation Martyrs are raised and judged at the end (Rev. 20:4). Rev. 19 is a Parenthetical Citation, not a part of the chronological order per se. Rev. 14:7 bugged me for a few years before I finally got it. God Bless.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 15, 2018 8:54:32 GMT -6
I disagree that the Great Tribulation is been taking place the last 2000ish years. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:15-28 that after the Abom. of Des. there will be "great tribulation" like nothing before and nothing again (paraphrasing) Does the tribulations we go through today usually lead to death? In some places yes, but generally, no. Those in 7:14 are coming out of this great tribulation. I will say that I can see how Revelation is not necessarily in chronological order. I have not studied that in detail yet. Some say 4-11 is an overview and then it starts back at the beginning with 12. I don't know. I'm open to that interpretation, but I haven't gotten it figured out for myself yet. My opinion is that the 144,000 are exactly that 144,000 Jews (and God knows which tribe people are from), the rest of the believing Jews flee to the wilderness, the great multitude are Trib Saints (including those in seal 5), the elders are 24 members of God's heavenly council, and the Bride is in the New Jerusalem during the 70th week (based on John 14:1-6, 1 Thes 4:17, Is 26:19-21). That's when the bema seat judgment and the wedding takes place (announced in 19:7). I also see a different role for the Church vs the Trib Saints. I think they are two separate groups, and the Trib Saints are not part of the Bride. I have explained my thinking on that elsewhere. We may just have to disagree on this.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 15, 2018 10:26:52 GMT -6
I disagree that the Great Tribulation is been taking place the last 2000ish years. Jesus tells us in Matthew 24:15-28 that after the Abom. of Des. there will be "great tribulation" like nothing before and nothing again (paraphrasing) Does the tribulations we go through today usually lead to death? In some places yes, but generally, no. Those in 7:14 are coming out of this great tribulation. I will say that I can see how Revelation is not necessarily in chronological order. I have not studied that in detail yet. Some say 4-11 is an overview and then it starts back at the beginning with 12. I don't know. I'm open to that interpretation, but I haven't gotten it figured out for myself yet. My opinion is that the 144,000 are exactly that 144,000 Jews (and God knows which tribe people are from), the rest of the believing Jews flee to the wilderness, the great multitude are Trib Saints (including those in seal 5), the elders are 24 members of God's heavenly council, and the Bride is in the New Jerusalem during the 70th week (based on John 14:1-6, 1 Thes 4:17, Is 26:19-21). That's when the bema seat judgment and the wedding takes place (announced in 19:7). I also see a different role for the Church vs the Trib Saints. I think they are two separate groups, and the Trib Saints are not part of the Bride. I have explained my thinking on that elsewhere. We may just have to disagree on this. If we disagree we will do it in a Godly manner of love, I don't understand some of the angst and bitterness I see on some Christian message boards. This one seems different. 1. I agree that Jesus tells us when we see the AoD there will be a time of troubles like never seen before or since, he was quoting Daniel 12:1-2, but of course Jesus gave it to Daniel. 2. But I think we (Church) tend to conflate scriptures unintentionally, for instance, nowhere in Rev. 7:9-17 does it say they were Martyrs, but because I always assumed they came out of the tribulation period I just took it for granted without thinking that they were Martyrs. (of course many of the Church Age were of course) I didn't just come to these conclusions per happenstance, I saw issues with my understandings of old. For instance in Seal #5 in vs. 10 they want vengeance on those that "dwell on earth" as in currently at that time, and in vs. 11 they are specifically told they "must wait" until their fellow brethren have been martyred as they were, meaning in my understanding, they must wait until the Beasts 42 month reign of terror is finished, that is why I see them as raised and judged (Rev. 20:4) when the Church returns with Christ. And those in Rev. 20:4 are said to have resisted the Mark of the Beast, specifically, so they had to live at that time and be raise and judged after the Church returns with Christ in Rev. 19. So you see why I couldn't see the tribulation saints as being in heaven via Rev. 7:9-14, and I decided we limited Gods reasoning by mandating that "Great Tribulation" could only mean greatest troubles, when it can be designated as a greater time period also, and those martyred saints in seal 5 are told they must wait until their brothers are martyred just as they were. I know it doesn't fit what we were always taught, but I try to let God teach me and it seems to work out better for the most part. As per the Chronology of Revelation, a brief summary of my studies would be Rev. 1-3 Church Age, Rev. 4-5 is the Church in heaven before the Seals are opened. Revelation 6,7, 8, 9, and 15&16 are the Judgments of God via the Seal, Trumpet and Vials. Then we get Rev. 20 the Judgment seat. And finally Rev. 21 and 22 the New Jerusalem and hereafter. Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations, or descriptions of events that happen in other chapters that are set-a-side insertions. I am sure we will speak about the 144,000 in another thread somewhere, this is getting a bit long. God Bless
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Post by Natalie on Sept 15, 2018 10:50:15 GMT -6
I tried quoting you rondonmonson directly but the formatting was all wrong. It's one reason I love this place. I do see where you are coming from even though I see it differently. There are a couple of threads on the 144,000. Here is an interesting post (if I linked it right ) about the 144,000. But, yes, feel free to search for the posts about them and bring them back up again if you have anything new to add. unsealed.boards.net/post/13302
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Post by mike on Sept 15, 2018 13:41:02 GMT -6
One comment Natalie and Ronmon (I don't think I could get that right if I tried) Most are very confident Rev 12:1-2 happened a year ago meaning that part of Rev could not be chronological. If it were we would be seeing some things that would indicate a mid or end trib rapture
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Post by Natalie on Sept 15, 2018 14:39:51 GMT -6
Yes, good point, Mike.
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Post by mike on Sept 15, 2018 15:01:22 GMT -6
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while Natalie
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Post by Natalie on Sept 15, 2018 16:16:46 GMT -6
Lol My Grandpa had a saying like that. He had lots of fun sayings. Fun memories.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 15, 2018 20:45:27 GMT -6
One comment Natalie and Ronmon (I don't think I could get that right if I tried) Most are very confident Rev 12:1-2 happened a year ago meaning that part of Rev could not be chronological. If it were we would be seeing some things that would indicate a mid or end trib rapture Greetings Mike, I wouldn't go this far on a message board, but I did chastise a few of my close friends for following some youtube guy named "Scotty" something, who was telling everyone the rapture was happening on Sep. 23, 2017 (if I remember correctly). I told them that he was citing Astrology signs (Horoscope/Virgo is the 6th sign of the Zodiac)). Now there was a sign, but it was a vision whre Jesus/Angel showed John a code that can be solved via Genesis 37:9. (No one cites Rev. 15 where another sign is seen in heaven, and it's 7 angels with the 7 final plagues.) I agree with those who cite Rev. 1:19 as John being told to write the things which he has seen, the things which are (7 Churches/Church Age) and the thing that are hereafter, so I do think Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture and everything from that point on is the hereafter. So how do we explain Rev. 12:1-5 as being hereafter ? I get that quite a bit, the Prophecy in Rev. 12 is about the hereafter, in that it's about Israel escaping the dragon (Satan) into the Wilderness where she is protected for 1260 days by God, but Jesus/John couldn't just say the name "Israel" in a letter because Rome had just destroyed Jerusalem/temple and pretty much all of Israel, so they used code words, and only those who knew Genesis 37:9 would understand that the encoded message meant Israel. CODED MESSAGE: The Sun (Jacob) the Moon (Rachel) and the 11 Stars (Joseph's brothers). But the prophecy had nothing to do with the Woman, Jesus the male child or the Dragon who used Herod to try to harm the child 2000 years ago, the prophecy in Rev. 12 is all about the Woman fleeing Judea and God protecting her for 1260 days from the great tribulation, the Rev. 12:1-5 event happened 2000 years ago. It was used to encode Israel as the one God was going to protect in the end times, Rome did not want to anything about God protecting Israel at that point in time. In Rev. 12 God protects Israel for 1260 days, so that has to happen in the Middle of the week (MoW). In Rev. 13 the Beast comes to power in the MoW. I think both Rev. 17 and 18 also start in the MoW, so that is why I have all of those chapters as not being a part of the actual chronological order of the book Revelation. I know it's somewhat discombobulating, but its been my calling for over 30 years and I see God revealing a lot more today than He did even 10 to 15 years ago. I love a good riddle as good as the next guy but some of this stuff had me crushed for 25 years, but now God is choosing to reveal much. God Bless.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Sept 15, 2018 20:48:54 GMT -6
I tried quoting you rondonmonson directly but the formatting was all wrong. It's one reason I love this place. I do see where you are coming from even though I see it differently. There are a couple of threads on the 144,000. Here is an interesting post (if I linked it right ) about the 144,000. But, yes, feel free to search for the posts about them and bring them back up again if you have anything new to add. unsealed.boards.net/post/13302I think I replied inside the box you replied in, then I went back and fixed it via copy & paste, that probably messed up the quoting ability. I will give it a look see, than you for the link.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 16, 2018 6:40:51 GMT -6
Don't worry about it...sometimes I am technically challenged
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Post by mike on Sept 17, 2018 8:58:18 GMT -6
One comment Natalie and Ronmon (I don't think I could get that right if I tried) Most are very confident Rev 12:1-2 happened a year ago meaning that part of Rev could not be chronological. If it were we would be seeing some things that would indicate a mid or end trib rapture Greetings Mike, I wouldn't go this far on a message board, but I did chastise a few of my close friends for following some youtube guy named "Scotty" something, who was telling everyone the rapture was happening on Sep. 23, 2017 (if I remember correctly). I told them that he was citing Astrology signs (Horoscope/Virgo is the 6th sign of the Zodiac)). Now there was a sign, but it was a vision whre Jesus/Angel showed John a code that can be solved via Genesis 37:9. (No one cites Rev. 15 where another sign is seen in heaven, and it's 7 angels with the 7 final plagues.) I agree with those who cite Rev. 1:19 as John being told to write the things which he has seen, the things which are (7 Churches/Church Age) and the thing that are hereafter, so I do think Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture and everything from that point on is the hereafter. So how do we explain Rev. 12:1-5 as being hereafter ? I get that quite a bit, the Prophecy in Rev. 12 is about the hereafter, in that it's about Israel escaping the dragon (Satan) into the Wilderness where she is protected for 1260 days by God, but Jesus/John couldn't just say the name "Israel" in a letter because Rome had just destroyed Jerusalem/temple and pretty much all of Israel, so they used code words, and only those who knew Genesis 37:9 would understand that the encoded message meant Israel. CODED MESSAGE: The Sun (Jacob) the Moon (Rachel) and the 11 Stars (Joseph's brothers). But the prophecy had nothing to do with the Woman, Jesus the male child or the Dragon who used Herod to try to harm the child 2000 years ago, the prophecy in Rev. 12 is all about the Woman fleeing Judea and God protecting her for 1260 days from the great tribulation, the Rev. 12:1-5 event happened 2000 years ago. It was used to encode Israel as the one God was going to protect in the end times, Rome did not want to anything about God protecting Israel at that point in time. In Rev. 12 God protects Israel for 1260 days, so that has to happen in the Middle of the week (MoW). In Rev. 13 the Beast comes to power in the MoW. I think both Rev. 17 and 18 also start in the MoW, so that is why I have all of those chapters as not being a part of the actual chronological order of the book Revelation. I know it's somewhat discombobulating, but its been my calling for over 30 years and I see God revealing a lot more today than He did even 10 to 15 years ago. I love a good riddle as good as the next guy but some of this stuff had me crushed for 25 years, but now God is choosing to reveal much. God Bless. rondonmonson - greetings to you as well. No need for you to think chastising anyone here (on a message board) is appropriate. We will have to disagree/agreeably on the Great Sign and its significance. Did many (including myself) think and HOPE that last September was a high watch time and a very possible time frame for the rapture? YES! Obviously that wasnt the case which many (including myself) acknowledged that we were not picking a date for the rapture to coincide with an astronomical event. Yes astrology is wrong, but astronomy is not. But this thread is not about that topic. If you would like to discuss this further we can begin a new thread or I can locate an old one to rehash and see what has transpired over the year since the Great Sign occurred. EDIT - feel free to peruse this thread and comment as you like
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