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Post by sesquipedalian on Sept 27, 2017 12:27:38 GMT -6
Most people, including me, thought that the prophetic fulfillment of this day would be the Rapture. But if it isn't, and if Jesus returns on the Day of Atonement in 2024, then what is supposed to happen on the Day of Shouting?
I wonder if this commemorates the day when Israel finally turns to Jesus as the Messiah. Suppose in 2024 they declare a day of mourning, of public prayer, of crying out to God, followed by seven days of repentance, and then Jesus returns at the end of seven days in response. Then God is so pleased with Israel finally returning to him that it echoes backward in time and God establishes a holiday commemorating it.
This is supported by the description of the day in Leviticus 23: a day of assembly, of presenting to God an offering made by fire, and of a memorial. A memorial of what? Perhaps of an event still yet to come.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 27, 2017 19:22:13 GMT -6
Most people, including me, thought that the prophetic fulfillment of this day would be the Rapture. But if it isn't, and if Jesus returns on the Day of Atonement in 2024, then what is supposed to happen on the Day of Shouting? I wonder if this commemorates the day when Israel finally turns to Jesus as the Messiah. Suppose in 2024 they declare a day of mourning, of public prayer, of crying out to God, followed by seven days of repentance, and then Jesus returns at the end of seven days in response. Then God is so pleased with Israel finally returning to him that it echoes backward in time and God establishes a holiday commemorating it. This is supported by the description of the day in Leviticus 23: a day of assembly, of presenting to God an offering made by fire, and of a memorial. A memorial of what? Perhaps of an event still yet to come. In a sense that IS how all of the moedim are, memorials of FUTURE events. God is working backward. Just like now we are back to the days of Noah. Just like Abraham that God called out to go into the promised land, the Jews have been called back into their land. The timeline seems to reverse parallels itself in certain ways, not exactly down to the years involved, rather, the themes. Its hard for for me to imagine that the remnant of Israel will flee into the wilderness for 1260 days and "nourished" there and yet still not know who Her messiah is, but if that is what the Bible means then clearly that's what will happen. If it literally means "they won't see him until they say, "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord," and that's not until He shows up at the end... then that is what'll happen. It's just hard for me to reconcile it using *my own logic.* The good news is, it doesn't really matter how it all plays out, not to us who will not be here or are not part of the remnant of Israel. |
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Post by kjs on Sept 28, 2017 14:33:49 GMT -6
I am a huge fan of the movie "National Treasure".....
One of the lines of Riley -- "Why can't they just say, 'go to this place, here's the treasure, spend it wisely'?."
I believe this line can be used here as well .....
The whole premise of National Treasure -- was one clue simply lead to the next clue, which lead to the next clue ....
From Riley's point of view as treasure hunter -- he simply wanted it over and done with -- with the treasure in his hands
Whereas, the hiders of the treasure wanted to ensure that the "finders" would only be those who were dedicated to seeing it through step by step....
WE ALL (and I really mean ME here) are really ready for the rapture to take place -- and have it all done and over with.....
BUT GOD has a really BIG Plan -- laid out and timed beautifully -- so everything comes together in a perfect way.....
So far our guesses and theories -- have not happened as we expected -- possibly because we want it right NOW....
God is simply saying "wait for it" "wait for it" -- it is going to be spectacular!
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Post by yardstick on Sept 28, 2017 15:05:40 GMT -6
I have my felt hat and bullwhip...
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Post by whatif on Sept 28, 2017 15:48:36 GMT -6
I've got my Miss Marple magnifying glass and a Batgirl utility belt...
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 2, 2017 6:38:22 GMT -6
I am a huge fan of the movie "National Treasure"..... One of the lines of Riley -- "Why can't they just say, 'go to this place, here's the treasure, spend it wisely'?." I believe this line can be used here as well ..... The whole premise of National Treasure -- was one clue simply lead to the next clue, which lead to the next clue .... From Riley's point of view as treasure hunter -- he simply wanted it over and done with -- with the treasure in his hands Whereas, the hiders of the treasure wanted to ensure that the "finders" would only be those who were dedicated to seeing it through step by step.... WE ALL (and I really mean ME here) are really ready for the rapture to take place -- and have it all done and over with..... BUT GOD has a really BIG Plan -- laid out and timed beautifully -- so everything comes together in a perfect way..... So far our guesses and theories -- have not happened as we expected -- possibly because we want it right NOW.... God is simply saying "wait for it" "wait for it" -- it is going to be spectacular! KJS, - You expressed it so perfectly, brother. I agree. |
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Post by watchman35 on Oct 2, 2017 7:53:14 GMT -6
I am a huge fan of the movie "National Treasure"..... One of the lines of Riley -- "Why can't they just say, 'go to this place, here's the treasure, spend it wisely'?." I believe this line can be used here as well ..... The whole premise of National Treasure -- was one clue simply lead to the next clue, which lead to the next clue .... From Riley's point of view as treasure hunter -- he simply wanted it over and done with -- with the treasure in his hands Whereas, the hiders of the treasure wanted to ensure that the "finders" would only be those who were dedicated to seeing it through step by step.... WE ALL (and I really mean ME here) are really ready for the rapture to take place -- and have it all done and over with..... BUT GOD has a really BIG Plan -- laid out and timed beautifully -- so everything comes together in a perfect way..... So far our guesses and theories -- have not happened as we expected -- possibly because we want it right NOW.... God is simply saying "wait for it" "wait for it" -- it is going to be spectacular! So what I hear you saying, kjs, is that the secret lies with Charlotte? LOL |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 2, 2017 8:35:52 GMT -6
I agree totally with KJS. He articulated what I was thinking. I am a fellow watchman along with you and I have learned so much. I've said it before, be we all see through a glass dimly. We all have parts of the puzzle - sometimes I'm sure that my piece is 'the sky' - it's too clear and even to be water. But when I put it together with SilenKnight or Yardstick or Missusmack or Whatif - then it becomes clear that it's neither sky or water, but a blue house.
Here's my take -
Yom Teruah - Feast of Trumpets was not fulfilled this year. It was fulfilled as much as it had been last year, or 10 years ago, or in 1967 or 77 years ago.
This year, on Sept 21st and 22nd, Feast of Trumpets happened, just as prescribed by the sighting of the crescent moon. There were witnesses in Jerusalem, it was confirmed, and there was a blast of trumpets. Four distinct kinds - like there have been for centuries. Then, "the Last Trumpet" is the 100th blast - the loudest and longest and it even has a special name in Hebrew - Tekia Hagadol.
Nothing happened this year on Feast of Trumpets that was quantitatively different than last year, or 1967, or in 1948, or in any combination of a Hebrew year whose digits are added or subtracted to get 77 or 33. ***Yes, I realize there were a lot of other dates and events, and weather and hurricanes that seem to make this year be significant.
For those who say it was fulfilled this year - then by the same logic it has been fulfilled in 70 AD and 80 AD and subsequently fulfilled thousands of times.
We need to be consistent in our Biblical interpretation and in our logic. There was no rapture, no peace treaty, no starting of the 3rd Temple, no earth-shaking comet crashed into the earth, nor a nuclear bomb, that started WW III.
The same is for the Revelation 12 sign. ***Shout out to Yardstick here ;-) - It may take some time to play out - I'm fine with that.
Let's be honest - Those who say the Revelation sign means nothing or was bogus are disingenuous and those who say it was fulfilled or that Feast of Trumpets was fulfilled this year are also shredding logic and hermeneutics, and trying to make something fit out of desperation.
- The Revelation 12 sign - was the sign itself - and like Paul said , the Feasts are a shadow of (point to) things to come. The Stop sign itself or the "Bridge out ahead" itself are not fulfilled. They are the signs that point to something else. The "Bridge out Ahead" is fulfilled, if and when the bridge is out up ahead, but not 277 miles away in the next state. The vintage (stolen) stop sign in the college dorm room is not fulfilled. Those who have said that the "real Last Trumpet" is on the Jubilee year, violated basic principles of Biblical Interpretation out of desperation. 1. The Text can not mean what it never meant. If the "Last Trump" Paul referred to in I Corinthians 15:50-52 meant the trumpet on Jubilee year - [Which no one knows] then it would mean that the rapture could only happen on a Jubilee year, and that since this was the Jubilee year, then we need to wait another 49 years. I understand that lots of people think the rapture could be any day - [There may be triggers, but it could be the 4th of July or February 14th, or June 2nd.] I respect other people's perspectives and theories, but we need to agree that words mean something. Christ didn't fulfill Passover on the 2nd of Tishri [In the Fall], and you can't Fulfill Day of Atonement on July 4th. They are either appointed Times or they are not - they can't be both. So then, either Christ fulfills them perfectly or He doesn't. At this point - I'm trying to consider mid-trib rapture theory, or we look for Feast of Trumpets next fall. ;-) Maranatha. Blessings.
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Post by yardstick on Oct 2, 2017 9:42:29 GMT -6
D4L,
You might also consider that the interpretation of how they will be fulfilled is the problem. We may be interpreting the fulfillment incorrectly.
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Post by kjs on Oct 2, 2017 10:10:30 GMT -6
IF the rapture has to be fulfilled on a Feast Day and IF it should be Feast of Trumpets ...
THEN we have two possibilities
One the TRUE Feast Of Trumpets has not occurred yet this year .... if this is true then I would suspect the rapture will occur on
October 19 19:12 UTC -- which is the NEXT NEW MOON.
(This theory is that all the calendars were off -- because they inserted the wrong leap month at the wrong time)
OR
The Feast of Trumpets 2018 -- is the NEXT possible Date.
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I grew up with the imminence of the rapture (or it could happen anytime) ... so it is not bothering me too much that it did not happen on the Feast Of Trumpets (this year).
The SIGN of Rev 12:1 -- did happen this year without a doubt....
I do believe the rapture will happen at the Rev 12:5 -- shortly after the "BIRTH"
There have been too many "coincidence" that have all happened in a relatively short portion of time --- that still has me convinced we are in the season....
YET, the meaning of the Rev 12:1 sign -- the portion we know that happened on 9/23-24 --- has eluded us --- meaning we thought it might me rapture but since nothing is happen ... it obviously means something else.....
Or like someone mentioned .... JUST a warning sign ... Bridge out ahead .... we just have not gotten far enough along passed the sign to know what the warning is relying to us.........
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Post by bruce on Oct 2, 2017 11:16:39 GMT -6
IF the rapture has to be fulfilled on a Feast Day and IF it should be Feast of Trumpets ... THEN we have two possibilities One the TRUE Feast Of Trumpets has not occurred yet this year .... if this is true then I would suspect the rapture will occur on October 19 19:12 UTC -- which is the NEXT NEW MOON. (This theory is that all the calendars were off -- because they inserted the wrong leap month at the wrong time) OR The Feast of Trumpets 2018 -- is the NEXT possible Date. There have been a lot of articles since FoT which have chipped away at the connection between FoT and the rapture, and even the connection with trumpets themselves for that matter. We have taken it as a given that Yom Teruah is about trumpets, but that is disputed. If it is disputed today, it could have been disputed at the time of Paul as well which means his listeners likely would not have automatically associated "The Last Trump" with Yom Teruah. There is admittedly a lot of Jewish tradition built up over the past 2000 years that seems to fit nicely with a Yom Teruah rapture, but when we put all of that tradition aside and just look at the Bible, we're left with surprisingly little to connect the two. I have no special insight, but I lean towards believing that we will see the rapture this fall. It may happen on Tabernacles, or on a day that is not a feast, but has a significant day count to a feast or to the sign in the heaven, or it might happen at the very moment the covenant is confirmed, which could be as late as November while still preserving a 2024 Second Coming. I also increasingly think that Yom Teruah will be fulfilled at the end of the Tribulation, possibly by the defeat of Satan's armies at the Battle of Armageddon (there is a lot of shouting in battles, think of the Battle of Jericho). The Day of Atonement would then be Judgement Day to determine who enters the Millennial Kingdom, and Tabernacles would be the inauguration of the Millennium. |
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 2, 2017 11:22:44 GMT -6
There have been too many "coincidence" that have all happened in a relatively short portion of time --- that still has me convinced we are in the season.... YET, the meaning of the Rev 12:1 sign -- the portion we know that happened on 9/23-24 --- has eluded us --- meaning we thought it might me rapture but since nothing is happen ... it obviously means something else..... Or like someone mentioned .... JUST a warning sign ... Bridge out ahead .... we just have not gotten far enough along passed the sign to know what the warning is relying to us......... I grew up catholic, so I'm still trying to figure out this rapture stuff. I am convinced in pre-trib, but I don't know. I want it to be pre-trib! I have no wish to see any more death and destruction and hate and despair on this Earth. But I guess what I'm wanting to say is that 'we' want to pin the rapture on a feast day, but why? It is for the Gentiles, no? And the Father would not want Satan to know when it will happen because he is waiting to devour us as soon as we are born. Also, the Rev 12 sign happened on the Feast of Trumpets, or close enough, right? Wouldn't that count as an event happening on a feast day? To me it's like "Hey, here is this sign, on this feast day, look up, pay attention now, your redemption draweth nigh! It's not coincidence! Notice all the numbers I'm putting in it. Come on people, focus!" I tell ya, if it's one thing I haven't been able to do, is focus. Especially on work. I really don't want to be here. I spend as much time as I can learning or watching for signs. My wife even commented how depressing and anxious it is living like this. We should be happy that our Saviour is coming for us, but there is that smidgen of doubt that we'll be missed, that we did something wrong, that He spit us out or that He didn't know us. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt that. But we keep praying and hoping. And watching. |
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Post by mike on Oct 2, 2017 11:49:41 GMT -6
stormyknight if you did something wrong for Him to miss you or any of us at the rapture, then there isn't a rapture. None of us qualify on our merits, and none disqualified on our sins. If you believe in the atonement of Christ, you are rapture material my friend
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Post by kjs on Oct 2, 2017 12:11:45 GMT -6
I tell ya, if it's one thing I haven't been able to do, is focus. Especially on work. I really don't want to be here. I spend as much time as I can learning or watching for signs. My wife even commented how depressing and anxious it is living like this. We should be happy that our Savior is coming for us, but there is that smidgen of doubt that we'll be missed, that we did something wrong, that He spit us out or that He didn't know us. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt that. But we keep praying and hoping. And watching. NOT TO BE RUDE ... but enough with the negative / doubting thoughts...... Salvation is a total work of Jesus Christ -- it is finished -- one simply believes that He accomplished what no one else could do and He GIFTS eternal life to all who believe. The Rapture is the SAME WAY! It is a total work of Jesus Christ and is a GIFT to all who believe! 1 Thess 4:
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Paul is speaking to believers here ... notice HE DOES SAY "we who are alive...." or in other words "we believers that are still living" He DOES NOT SAY -- we believers who are still alive and have confessed all our sins and have no doubt and live godly life's every moment and tithe ten percent and keep the Sabbath Holy AND .... AND .... AND .... IF YOUR FAITH is in Jesus Christ and WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED for you .... you will be part of the rapture! |
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 2, 2017 13:18:51 GMT -6
I tell ya, if it's one thing I haven't been able to do, is focus. Especially on work. I really don't want to be here. I spend as much time as I can learning or watching for signs. My wife even commented how depressing and anxious it is living like this. We should be happy that our Savior is coming for us, but there is that smidgen of doubt that we'll be missed, that we did something wrong, that He spit us out or that He didn't know us. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt that. But we keep praying and hoping. And watching. NOT TO BE RUDE ... but enough with the negative / doubting thoughts...... Salvation is a total work of Jesus Christ -- it is finished -- one simply believes that He accomplished what no one else could do and He GIFTS eternal life to all who believe. The Rapture is the SAME WAY! It is a total work of Jesus Christ and is a GIFT to all who believe! 1 Thess 4:
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Paul is speaking to believers here ... notice HE DOES SAY "we who are alive...." or in other words "we believers that are still living" He DOES NOT SAY -- we believers who are still alive and have confessed all our sins and have no doubt and live godly life's every moment and tithe ten percent and keep the Sabbath Holy AND .... AND .... AND .... IF YOUR FAITH is in Jesus Christ and WHAT HE ACCOMPLISHED for you .... you will be part of the rapture! Yes, I know, kjs, I know. But please understand, you all are the first connection I've had with 'church folk' for almost 20 years and I live in the middle of nowhere...literally (N38deg. 13'18.67",W101deg59'9.74"for those interested). So please forgive me my failings. The last time I actually, physically, talked to someone besides my wife about this stuff was my brother a month ago driving back from his house to mine, a four hour trip. We talked non-stop the whole way and it wasn't enough. We filled each other in on everything we knew about anything and we were in perfect agreement. I have no doubt that Yashua was with us on that trip. So YES I do believe I will be in the rapture. It's just being out here all alone really works on a person, you know? We would like to move, but we can't afford it and we have family to consider. The rapture right now would be AWESOME! |
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