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Post by bruce on Sept 23, 2017 11:51:58 GMT -6
As I write this, the sun has set in Jerusalem on September 23. Most people say the Feast of Trumpets ended last night, but by some reckoning it continued into today. However, even if the 23rd is still the Feast of Trumpets, the only place it is still ongoing is in the western parts of the world, and when the sun sets in Alaska and Hawaii it will be over.
So does that mean we now have to wait until 2018? So many folks in the watcher community including Scottie Clark might have us to believe so based on the way they have asserted so strongly that the rapture and Feast of Trumpets go together. I like Scottie and am not trying to attack him (I very much appreciate all the work he's done and insights he has provided the watchers), but I just wonder if we shouldn't all re-examine that assumption. I have a few thoughts on the subject that I want to share.
First, if we can determine that the rapture doesn't necessarily have to happen on the Feast of Trumpets, then we can continue to watch expectantly for the rapture in the days ahead as events unfold this fall. There are good reasons to believe that the tribulation will start sometime in October or November and end on the fall feast days of 2024. That still may be true if we don't have to wait until 2018 for the rapture.
Second, the rapture and the second coming have many similarities in scripture, but we who hold to a pre-tribulation rapture have noticed that there are subtle differences which means the two are not the same event. I wonder, could it be that in a similar way there are multiple events with trumpets and shouting, but that they are not all Feast of Trumpets events? If I am not mistaken, the Battle of Jericho was in the Spring, but there were trumpets and shouting involved when they took the city. (The orthodox Jews seem to celebrate it on Nissan 22 which would put it at the end of Passover). There are also the two silver trumpets of Numbers 10 that could be blown at any time. The last trump of the two would signify that it was time for the camp to move. There are clear rapture parallels there as well. So could the rapture be a fulfillment of some type and shadow from the Old Testament that is not specifically tied to a date?
Third, I do believe all the feasts including the Feast of Trumpets are prophetic, but there are plenty of scholars who suggest that its fulfillment will happen at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Just as the spring feasts were all fulfilled sequentially the same year, it's possible the same could be true of the fall feasts with some aspect of Christ's second coming falling on Feast of Trumpets prior to a judgment on the Day of Atonement. If the Feast of Trumpets were fulfilled by the rapture, then we would have a stray fall feast fulfilled 7 years prior to the final two. That has actually bothered me through the years because it didn't seem to fit the precedent of Jesus' fulfillment of all the Spring feasts during his first coming during the same year.
So if we can let go of the Feast of Trumpets rapture (and I think we have good reason to), then I think we can continue to watch expectantly in the days ahead. All of the reasons that make 2017 a good year for the rapture and the start of the Tribulation continue to be true. The only apparent problem now to me seems to be the need to make the rapture fit with Feast of Trumpets. The Great Sign of Revelation 12 is ongoing and will still be in place through September 24, and the rapture might happen during that time or some time after the sign has concluded, and we still have almost two months before the Tribulation would need to start if it were to end on the feasts of 2024.
Thoughts?
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Post by barb84 on Sept 23, 2017 12:06:05 GMT -6
Random ideas I have had: if the head of the body(Jesus) went to heaven ten days before Pentecost, will the rest of the body(church) go up ten days before Pentecost in the appropriate year? A different thought: if the church was conceived at Pentecost, would the birth happen about 9/10 months later? Again, in the appropriate year.
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Post by yardstick on Sept 23, 2017 12:09:50 GMT -6
We are still in the window for a harpazo.
9/23 was represented in Rev 12:1. Rev 12:2 and beyond hasnt happened yet.
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Post by brad on Sept 23, 2017 12:10:26 GMT -6
I agree bruce,
If the sign is pointing to this year, technically the Feast of trumpets is over. I have to admit that my best thinking here was wrong.
The moon is also starting to leave the under foot position..... Lots to ponder.
I think it might be good to start looking at a possible pause in revelation 12 which could send this into extended overtime... the pause is the word "then"
Revelation 12New King James Version (NKJV)
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
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Post by bruce on Sept 23, 2017 12:12:47 GMT -6
Random ideas I have had: if the head of the body(Jesus) went to heaven ten days before Pentecost, will the rest of the body(church) go up ten days before Pentecost in the appropriate year? A different thought: if the church was conceived at Pentecost, would the birth happen about 9/10 months later? Again, in the appropriate year. Those thoughts have occurred to me as well. At this point what I see working against that is the strong case for the 2017-2024 Tribulation. That means we would need to be raptured before November 19 (roughly). 9 months after Pentecost 2017 would be approximately March 2, 2018 which is too late for that time frame. Now if we are wrong about the 2017-2024 time line then I certainly think that could be a possibility. I hope not though; I want to go before then. |
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Post by yardstick on Sept 23, 2017 12:14:22 GMT -6
Random ideas I have had: if the head of the body(Jesus) went to heaven ten days before Pentecost, will the rest of the body(church) go up ten days before Pentecost in the appropriate year? A different thought: if the church was conceived at Pentecost, would the birth happen about 9/10 months later? Again, in the appropriate year. Those thoughts have occurred to me as well. At this point what I see working against that is the strong case for the 2017-2024 Tribulation. That means we would need to be raptured before November 19 (roughly). 9 months after Pentecost 2017 would be approximately March 2, 2018 which is too late for that time frame. Now if we are wrong about the 2017-2024 time line then I certainly think that could be a possibility. I hope not though; I want to go before then. November 19 is the last of the window. Then we have to drop back and punt. |
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Post by brad on Sept 23, 2017 12:24:44 GMT -6
Those thoughts have occurred to me as well. At this point what I see working against that is the strong case for the 2017-2024 Tribulation. That means we would need to be raptured before November 19 (roughly). 9 months after Pentecost 2017 would be approximately March 2, 2018 which is too late for that time frame. Now if we are wrong about the 2017-2024 time line then I certainly think that could be a possibility. I hope not though; I want to go before then. With you on that yardstick.... made me laugh on that one! game is now in overtime.... it's going to be a long 56 days if this goes that long... I'm not punting till then! |
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 23, 2017 12:29:39 GMT -6
So if we can let go of the Feast of Trumpets rapture (and I think we have good reason to), then I think we can continue to watch expectantly in the days ahead. All of the reasons that make 2017 a good year for the rapture and the start of the Tribulation continue to be true. The only apparent problem now to me seems to be the need to make the rapture fit with Feast of Trumpets. The Great Sign of Revelation 12 is ongoing and will still be in place through September 24, and the rapture might happen during that time or some time after the sign has concluded, and we still have almost two months before the Tribulation would need to start if it were to end on the feasts of 2024. Thoughts? The sun is still up here on Sept. 23, and as a famous sports coach once said, "It ain't over til it's over!"  That being said, keep up your faith bruce, and don't worry, the Father will call us when it is time. If you check out Todd's video on the It Is Finished channel, I tend to agree, the Father probably likes to do things at the last second, and for good reason: Also, if you caught the Caravan to Midnight radio program that featured Scottie, he pointed out that right now the dragon is poised to devour the child, the church, that is just about to be born. So that tells me timing is everything. We have to be ready to go. Sometimes the child has difficulties in childbirth too, right? We need to come together and be of one mind, I think, and pray and be of one accord with the Holy Spirit. Instead we are starting to doubt. We are starting to push at the sides of the birth canal and cry and resist. We need to open our eyes to our Saviour Jesus Christ to receive us, to take us, to snatch us past the dragon and on up to the Throne of God! We. Must. Pray. Together! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2017 13:00:19 GMT -6
brad, 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. In other words, the opera ain't over until the fat lady screams
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 23, 2017 13:38:09 GMT -6
Random ideas I have had: if the head of the body(Jesus) went to heaven ten days before Pentecost, will the rest of the body(church) go up ten days before Pentecost in the appropriate year? A different thought: if the church was conceived at Pentecost, would the birth happen about 9/10 months later? Again, in the appropriate year. Those thoughts have occurred to me as well. At this point what I see working against that is the strong case for the 2017-2024 Tribulation. That means we would need to be raptured before November 19 (roughly). 9 months after Pentecost 2017 would be approximately March 2, 2018 which is too late for that time frame. Now if we are wrong about the 2017-2024 time line then I certainly think that could be a possibility. I hope not though; I want to go before then. I love the thread, Bruce, Just curious - where do you get the Nov 19th date?? |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 23, 2017 14:01:57 GMT -6
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Post by bruce on Sept 23, 2017 14:31:08 GMT -6
Those thoughts have occurred to me as well. At this point what I see working against that is the strong case for the 2017-2024 Tribulation. That means we would need to be raptured before November 19 (roughly). 9 months after Pentecost 2017 would be approximately March 2, 2018 which is too late for that time frame. Now if we are wrong about the 2017-2024 time line then I certainly think that could be a possibility. I hope not though; I want to go before then. I love the thread, Bruce, Just curious - where do you get the Nov 19th date?? Disciple4life, You can arrive at the November 19 date if you make a few assumptions. It's commonly thought that Jesus will return on Yom Kippor, the Day of Atonement and that will conclude Daniel's 70th week. The official Yom Kippor for 2024 is October 12. Since many folks prefer to push the dates out a day in order to assure it is a calendar based on the new moon sighting, that would mean October 13 might be a better day, but either way we are within a day. Take October 13, 2024 and subtract 2520 days to account for Daniel's 70th week (a week of years of 360 days: 7 * 360 = 2520) and you arrive at November 19, 2017 (plus or minus a couple days) as a very likely day for the covenant to be confirmed. The church must be gone by that date if the rapture is pre-trib and the second coming is Day of Atonement 2024. |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 23, 2017 14:33:17 GMT -6
As I write this, the sun has set in Jerusalem on September 23. Most people say the Feast of Trumpets ended last night, but by some reckoning it continued into today. However, even if the 23rd is still the Feast of Trumpets, the only place it is still ongoing is in the western parts of the world, and when the sun sets in Alaska and Hawaii it will be over. So does that mean we now have to wait until 2018? So many folks in the watcher community including Scottie Clark might have us to believe so based on the way they have asserted so strongly that the rapture and Feast of Trumpets go together. I like Scottie and am not trying to attack him (I very much appreciate all the work he's done and insights he has provided the watchers), but I just wonder if we shouldn't all re-examine that assumption. I have a few thoughts on the subject that I want to share. Love this thread, Bruce. It's Disciple4life, trying to address each point in red - not to argue - but trying to be like the Bereans. The first point is to think of it like a flow chart - for troubleshooting. starts with two options like a Y. There's two options - Two choices One is those who believe that the Feasts are Inseparably linked to the Messiah. They are Moadim, -appointed times. [then, we have three points ] 1. Paul said in Coloss that the feasts "are a shadow of (point to) things to come. and 2. Christ fulfilled all the four Spring Feasts in Perfect Order and Perfect Precision. and 3. Paul said the Gospel was revealed to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to Jealousy. (This is one of the biggest reasons I and others don't see the Sept alignment as the Rev 12 sign - and there's quite a bit of speculation) *** When we look at the markers, the parallels of the rapture and Feast of Trumpets from scripture and other examples from Jewish culture, practiced for centuries - No other feast comes close. **Including the first four that have already been fulfilled.
First, if we can determine that the rapture doesn't necessarily have to on the Feast of Trumpets, then we can continue to watch expectantly for the rapture in the days ahead as events unfold this fall. There are good reasons to believe that the tribulation will start sometime in October or November and end on the fall feast days of 2024. That still may be true if we don't have to wait until 2018 for the rapture.
Second, the rapture and the second coming have many similarities in scripture, but we who hold to a pre-tribulation rapture have noticed that there are subtle differences which means the two are not the same event. I wonder, could it be that in a similar way there are multiple events with trumpets and shouting, but that they are not all Feast of Trumpets events? If I am not mistaken, the Battle of Jericho was in the Spring, but there were trumpets and shouting involved when they took the city. (The orthodox Jews seem to celebrate it on Nissan 22 which would put it at the end of Passover). There are also the two silver trumpets of Numbers 10 that could be blown at any time. The last trump of the two would signify that it was time for the camp to move. There are clear rapture parallels there as well. So could the rapture be a fulfillment of some type and shadow from the Old Testament that is not specifically tied to a date?
Third, I do believe all the feasts including the Feast of Trumpets are prophetic, but there are plenty of scholars who suggest that its fulfillment will happen at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Just as the spring feasts were all fulfilled sequentially the same year, it's possible the same could be true of the fall feasts with some aspect of Christ's second coming falling on Feast of Trumpets prior to a judgment on the Day of Atonement. If the Feast of Trumpets were fulfilled by the rapture, then we would have a stray fall feast fulfilled 7 years prior to the final two. That has actually bothered me through the years because it didn't seem to fit the precedent of Jesus' fulfillment of all the Spring feasts during his first coming during the same year.
So if we can let go of the Feast of Trumpets rapture (and I think we have good reason to), then I think we can continue to watch expectantly in the days ahead. All of the reasons that make 2017 a good year for the rapture and the start of the Tribulation continue to be true. The only apparent problem now to me seems to be the need to make the rapture fit with Feast of Trumpets. The Great Sign of Revelation 12 is ongoing and will still be in place through September 24, and the rapture might happen during that time or some time after the sign has concluded, and we still have almost two months before the Tribulation would need to start if it were to end on the feasts of 2024.
Thoughts?
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 23, 2017 16:00:31 GMT -6
As I write this, the sun has set in Jerusalem on September 23. Most people say the Feast of Trumpets ended last night, but by some reckoning it continued into today. However, even if the 23rd is still the Feast of Trumpets, the only place it is still ongoing is in the western parts of the world, and when the sun sets in Alaska and Hawaii it will be over. So does that mean we now have to wait until 2018? So many folks in the watcher community including Scottie Clark might have us to believe so based on the way they have asserted so strongly that the rapture and Feast of Trumpets go together. I like Scottie and am not trying to attack him (I very much appreciate all the work he's done and insights he has provided the watchers), but I just wonder if we shouldn't all re-examine that assumption. I have a few thoughts on the subject that I want to share. Love this thread, Bruce. It's Disciple4life, trying to address each point in red - not to argue - but trying to be like the Bereans. The first point is to think of it like a flow chart - for troubleshooting. starts with two options like a Y. There's two options - Two choices. One is those who believe that the Feasts are Inseparably linked to the Messiah. They are Moadim, -appointed times. [then, we have three points ] 1. Paul said in Coloss that the feasts "are a shadow of (point to) things to come. and 2. Christ fulfilled all the four Spring Feasts in Perfect Order and Perfect Precision. and 3. Paul said the Gospel was revealed to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to Jealousy. (This is one of the biggest reasons I and others don't see the Sept alignment as the Rev 12 sign - and there's quite a bit of speculation) *** When we look at the markers, the parallels of the rapture and Feast of Trumpets from scripture and other examples from Jewish culture, practiced for centuries - No other feast comes close. **Including the first four that have already been fulfilled. First, if we can determine that the rapture doesn't necessarily have to happen on the Feast of Trumpets, then we can continue to watch expectantly for the rapture in the days ahead as events unfold this fall. There are good reasons to believe that the tribulation will start sometime in October or November and end on the fall feast days of 2024. That still may be true if we don't have to wait until 2018 for the rapture. then here we have the scenario that the rapture is still on a Feast day, - but Yom Kippur- Day of Atonement. **This is still option one on the flow chart - Feasts are inseparably linked to Messiah. But He skips a Feast. Hmmmm. Second, the rapture and the second coming have many similarities in scripture, but we who hold to a pre-tribulation rapture have noticed that there are subtle differences which means the two are not the same event. I wonder, could it be that in a similar way there are multiple events with trumpets and shouting, but that they are not all Feast of Trumpets events? If I am not mistaken, the Battle of Jericho was in the Spring, but there were trumpets and shouting involved when they took the city. (The orthodox Jews seem to celebrate it on Nissan 22 which would put it at the end of Passover). There are also the two silver trumpets of Numbers 10 that could be blown at any time. The last trump of the two would signify that it was time for the camp to move. There are clear rapture parallels there as well. So could the rapture be a fulfillment of some type and shadow from the Old Testament that is not specifically tied to a date? Third, I do believe all the feasts including the Feast of Trumpets are prophetic, but there are plenty of scholars who suggest that its fulfillment will happen at the end of the 7 year tribulation. Just as the spring feasts were all fulfilled sequentially the same year, it's possible the same could be true of the fall feasts with some aspect of Christ's second coming falling on Feast of Trumpets prior to a judgment on the Day of Atonement. If the Feast of Trumpets were fulfilled by the rapture, then we would have a stray fall feast fulfilled 7 years prior to the final two. That has actually bothered me through the years because it didn't seem to fit the precedent of Jesus' fulfillment of all the Spring feasts during his first coming during the same year. So if we can let go of the Feast of Trumpets rapture (and I think we have good reason to), then I think we can continue to watch expectantly in the days ahead. So here, we have Option Two of the Flow chart - Any Day is possible. could be on April 1 or May 2, or October 31st, or Friday the 13th. **I'm just trying to think it through with all my fellow watchmen. ;-) How can the Feasts be a shadow of things to come if the Rapture and Second coming are on random days?? I don't mean it in an aggressive way- I'm trying to see how that would be possible. It also raises another question of why Christ fulfilled all the first four in perfect order and perfection precision - on the day, and doesn't fulfill the Fall Feasts on the day??? All of the reasons that make 2017 a good year for the rapture and the start of the Tribulation continue to be true. The only apparent problem now to me seems to be the need to make the rapture fit with Feast of Trumpets. The Great Sign of Revelation 12 is ongoing and will still be in place through September 24, and the rapture might happen during that time or some time after the sign has concluded, and we still have almost two months before the Tribulation would need to start if it were to end on the feasts of 2024. Thoughts? |
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Post by anonymouse on Sept 23, 2017 16:07:42 GMT -6
We are still in the window for a harpazo. 9/23 was represented in Rev 12:1. Rev 12:2 and beyond hasnt happened yet. I strongly agree with you |
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That being said, keep up your faith bruce, and don't worry, the Father will call us when it is time. If you check out Todd's video on the It Is Finished channel, I tend to agree, the Father probably likes to do things at the last second, and for good reason:
