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Post by evenso on Sept 24, 2017 19:34:21 GMT -6
I wonder why we're in granite that the Rapture has to be on a feast day? Because the harpazo is for the Church, isn't it just as logical to think it may be on Pentecost?
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Post by Rick on Sept 24, 2017 20:47:51 GMT -6
I mostly agree. However, the Jews will recognize that salvation has come to the Gentiles (Romans 11:11) and that will make them jealous, so some correlation between the rapture and the Torah feasts that is meaningful to Israel shouldn't be ruled out. It could be Feast of Trumpets (but as of now that seems less likely if it is going to happen in 2017) but any time during the Days of Awe or Tabernacles might also produce the same jealousy. That still leaves open the possibility of the final fulfillment of Feast of Trumpets happening at the end of the Tribulation when Jesus returns with the saints. I think the feasts can have multiple fulfillments, but there will be a final fulfillment, and I increasingly expect the final fulfillment to happen for all of the fall feasts in the same year when Jesus returns to the Earth after the Tribulation. How about Isa 66:7 and 26:17-...? Especially 26:18? The Jews wont see it until after! Just as an aside, looking at each of the 4 previously fulfilled feasts: Passover - for the jews, not the gentiles Feast of unleavened bread - for the jews, not the gentiles Feast of first-fruits - for the jews, not the gentiles Pentecost - for the jews, not the gentiles I'm trying to think critically and am just another watchman with you guys- and so blessed to be able to share ideas - ;-) The problem with this model, is that as of this point, at the fulfillment of the first three - there was no church and even by Pentecost a very small number of Gentile believers, so the first four Spring feasts were categorically different. One of the biggest problems of many churches and denominations today is that they totally discount and ignore the Feasts, and miss crucial keys about End Times. **In Colossians 4, Paul was speaking to a mixed audience - and he said that the Feasts are a shadow of (Point to) things to come. Hypothesis: T he harpazo is for the gentiles! Not the Jews! The feasts do not apply to the harpazo! Harpazo is for all those who have accepted the Messiah - Jewish and Gentile. There are tens of thousands of Messianic Jews, maybe millions, - It is certainly for these. Also, there is more markers, more parallels between Harpazo/rapture and Feast of Trumpets, than any other feast. No other Feast even comes close. - No Last Trumpet - No trumpets with any other feast. (except blowing a trumpet on Day of Atonement in Jubilee year).
- no Day of Shouting,
- no open door, Heaven's gate/door opened
- no coronation of kings,
- no resurrection, no wedding imagery,
- no trumpets. No other Feast even has trumpets. Harpazo is found in 1 Thes 4:16-17, which is the resurrection of the dead. Jews for centuries (and even now) understand that the resurrection happens at Yom Teruah. Jews also understand that the doors of heaven are opened at Feast of Trumpets and closed at Day of Atonement. 'Harpazo' is not found in any other passage connected to or describing a feast.
But they DO apply to the second coming! Matthew 24! The jews were asking if he was going to set up is kingdom. Which kingdom? The Millennial kingdom! When does this get set up? After the Tribulation! After the harpazo! After the times of the gentiles!
Exactly disciple4life, but I was not referring to the Messianic Jews for Paul tells us, we are all of one spirit, there is neither Jew nor gentile. I meant the Jewish people that deny the Christ even to this very day and by proxy the Nation of Israel. Hope that is a bit clearer. |
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Post by Rick on Sept 24, 2017 20:53:45 GMT -6
I wonder why we're in granite that the Rapture has to be on a feast day? Because the harpazo is for the Church, isn't it just as logical to think it may be on Pentecost? Hello evenso, I don't believe we should be. The church was never commanded to keep the feast days, God commanded Jewish people to keep them. Should we know about them and learn from them? I think so, but I am of the belief that the rapture may very well not be tied to the any actual feast day. Of course I could be wrong but hey, gives me more to study  |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 24, 2017 21:29:51 GMT -6
I agree bruce, If the sign is pointing to this year, technically the Feast of trumpets is over. I have to admit that my best thinking here was wrong. The moon is also starting to leave the under foot position..... Lots to ponder. I think it might be good to start looking at a possible pause in revelation 12 which could send this into extended overtime... the pause is the word "then"Revelation 12New King James Version (NKJV)
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. how long for the overtime? I know, what if it's another 726 days? Or 1260? 😩 Would the Rev 12:1-2 sign as a warning still qualify for those time frames? Edit: 726 days almost puts us at Yom Teruah in 2019... if the Jewish calendar is accurate. However, then what are we supposed to do about the eclipse and seemingly obvious trial period we are in? |
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Post by yardstick on Sept 24, 2017 22:00:21 GMT -6
Thanks for your comments! I absolutely appreciate anyone poking holes in any hypothesis a make! I also am more than willing to alter my hypotheses based upon new information/ideas! I do see where I have apparently misstated what I am trying to say. But also I see something in what you said that still fits with what I may call the Jewish model (for lack of a more presently precise term). Allow me to clarify: When I said the harpazo is for the gentiles not the jews, I should have said the converse to more accurately make my point: The feasts are for the Jews, not the gentiles. Therefore, a feast would not necessarily indicate a harpazo. This appears to be the case, as we are all still here, notwithstanding Yom Teruah this year! However, there is a clear indication in scripture, IMHO, where Jesus is talking about the second coming, and we have conflated that with the harpazo. For instance, much of Matt 24 is related to the Jews, the Tribulation and the Second Coming, not the gentiles. So what I am asking is: What if the Yom Teruah parallels the Second Coming, in 2024, not the harpazo? How would we map this chronologically? Work backwards from then to see what dates we get for this year (7 years prior), right? Don't those dates fall between 9/30 and 11/19? Such a hypothesis, would [not just in hindsight, but also not necessarily] prior to 9/23, have indicated that 9/23 was not a 'valid' date for the harpazo, right? Is this a little more clear? Sometimes I fall on my face trying to explain my (non-math) thought processes. But if you're making a new timeline based on Jesus returning on the Feast of Trumpets instead of Atonement (correct?) aren't you assuming that the full day count of 1260 + 1290 (or 1260, depending on how you view the extra 30 days) has to be completed before Jesus arrives on mt of Olives? Why can't the count still end on DoA but Jesus arrive earlier? That wouldn't change anything, would it? IDK I figured we could establish a number of potential timelines, and then test them against scriptures. |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 25, 2017 7:09:20 GMT -6
I wonder why we're in granite that the Rapture has to be on a feast day? Because the harpazo is for the Church, isn't it just as logical to think it may be on Pentecost? Great point, Evenso. ;-) Welcome to the Forum. While most all of the guys and gals have strong feelings about end times issues - I totally agree - we should be very careful about what we put in Granite. Most all the people on here - even the ones with whom I disagree, agree on that. ;-) Regarding end times - I put in Granite very few things. - First and foremost - that we all see through a glass dimly, and like Paul said in I Thes 5:4-5 "for those of us watching, awake, his Return will NOT be a surprise like a thief in the night." That the Rapture is real, and that it hasn't happened yet.
- The Return of Christ and the issues related to it, rapture, tribulation, anti-Christ, second coming and millennium are mentioned over 315 times in the New Testament and it is the theme of 3 books of the NT. 1 Thes, II Thes, and Revelation. These events are real, and not symbolic.
- Christ fulfilled all the first four Spring Feasts perfectly, - in perfect order and in perfect precision.
- We are NOT currently in the Tribulation.
- Just because a person is mistaken on a hypothesis, or theory - doesn't make him or her a false prophet, and we should give grace. ;-)
Now, for clarification - I would say that I lean strongly in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture/Harpazo, but I'm open to hearing different views and very willing to look at evidence. If we look at all the Feasts, and then look at scripture clues, and the cultural clues (parallels and markers) between the rapture and Feast of Trumpets, no other Feast even comes close. - Including the first four Spring Feasts that have already been fulfilled. *** While I think the evidence for Yom Teruah is overwhelming, I would accept another feast day - such as Day of Atonement, or Feast of Booths/Sukkot. It's very helpful when you think of a flow chart with two forks /choices like a Y. - The first choice is The Feasts are Inseparably linked to the Messiah -
- Second choice is that the Rapture could be any day of the year. [It may have some event that triggers it, or starts a chain of events] but it could be April 1, July 4th, Oct 31, or Friday the 13th. Any Day is possible.
In my humble opinion, I don't think it is Pentecost for two strong reasons - First because the First Four were already fulfilled - In perfect order and in perfect precision. Pentecost was the conception of the church. Second, because the next one to be fulfilled is Feast of Trumpets. All the Fall Feasts are connected with End Times. Why would we find so many clear parallels and markers between the rapture and Feast of Trumpets ?
I am open to lots of possible scenarios and ideas - including that all the Fall Feasts, -Trumpets, Day of Atonement and Feast of Booths/ Sukkot will be perfectly fulfilled at the end. This would leave us with a "Surprise rapture" which is totally unbiblical - a theory based on two verses taken out of context. ;-)
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