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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 13, 2017 9:52:27 GMT -6
Merging this with the main Gog thread. . . .
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 13, 2017 21:50:11 GMT -6
Just thought I'd point out that a new interesting possibility has been floated--about the millennial Kingdom being a 1,000 year gap between halves of the 70th week. I'm not sure how that would affect things, especially regarding the poll associated with this thread, but it might make some more sense about the end-of-times Gog and Magog uprising. However it sounds like there would not be 7 years for the cleanup, since the heavens and earth would be destroyed immediately after that.
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Post by rt on Sept 14, 2017 9:17:24 GMT -6
Just thought I'd point out that a new interesting possibility has been floated--about the millennial Kingdom being a 1,000 year gap between halves of the 70th week. I'm not sure how that would affect things, especially regarding the poll associated with this thread, but it might make some more sense about the end-of-times Gog and Magog uprising. However it sounds like there would not be 7 years for the cleanup, since the heavens and earth would be destroyed immediately after that. I don't really think this possibility fits with scripture for lots of reasons. It is pretty clear in scripture where the timing for the millennial kingdom falls and that is that it follows the 70th week. Just because weapons are burned for seven years, doesn't mean that it encompasses the seven years of the 70th week. Consider this passage: This "burning" happens when God breaks the yoke and staff of Israel's oppressor, it then Goes on to speak of the Davidic Kingdom. Cont'd.... |
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Post by rt on Sept 14, 2017 9:38:59 GMT -6
cont'd....
Compare that with the context in Ezekiel 29
The context of the passage is in view of the restoration of Israel, when they as a nation will no longer profane His name, when all the nations will know that He is the Lord. When does that happen? The whole passage speaks about God's treatment of Gog, how "he" will fall on the mountains of Israel and be left for food of every predatory bird and animal.
Sounds a lot like this wouldn't you agree?:
This war culminates at the end of the 70th week, when Christ returns. It has a beginning too, but when it starts is open to speculation, as I said I believe it happens around the middle of the week. This Gog may either be the Antichrist himself or the leader of his armies I cannot say for sure. Maybe I am wrong, but scripture does seem to indicate that the end of the Gog Magog war, ends at Armageddon. Then we see in scripture that Gog makes a re-appearance in one last attempt to overthrown God and His saints. After Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years :
These "nations" will be the descendants of those nations whose armies are destroyed by God at Armageddon.
They are descended from the Gog/Magog coalition which is why they are called "Gog and Magog" again at the end of the Millennium. This is a common idea throughout scripture, just like Jesus and His Kingdom is also called the Kingdom of David, because He is descended from David.
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 15, 2017 23:05:23 GMT -6
Thank you, rt, I do believe you are right. I'm glad you took the time to lay that all out there, and it makes sense. The last part especially is a new thought for me, and it clicked well. "Zechariah 14:16 (NASB95) 16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. They are descended from the Gog/Magog coalition which is why they are called "Gog and Magog" again at the end of the Millennium. This is a common idea throughout scripture, just like Jesus and His Kingdom is also called the Kingdom of David, because He is descended from David." Yep, I think you're right on the money there, thanks again.  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Oct 3, 2017 0:02:37 GMT -6
Iran and Turkey (as well as the Iraqi central government) are solidifying their alliance due to the independence efforts of the Kurds. Pay attention, folks! I will also point out that Russia has been lining up with those two as well. news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/03/c_136655355.htmSo. The Kurds are trying to establish their nation. Immediately after the Rev. 12 sign in the sky. Birth of a nation. . . . ? Not to mention Catalonia. . . . |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 6:01:18 GMT -6
Iran and Turkey (as well as the Iraqi central government) are solidifying their alliance due to the independence efforts of the Kurds. Pay attention, folks! I will also point out that Russia has been lining up with those two as well. news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-10/03/c_136655355.htmSo. The Kurds are trying to establish their nation. Immediately after the Rev. 12 sign in the sky. Birth of a nation. . . . ? Not to mention Catalonia. . . . Matthew 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
To me these all are clearly increasing birth pangs, exactly as Jesus said. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2017 1:53:35 GMT -6
Stumbled over this article, recently (rev12daily in some comment section): escapeallthesethings.com/gog-magog/In a nutshell, the author says that Ez 38 is a different war than the war from Ez 39 and separated by at least 1000yrs. Ez 39 is to happen first, then Ez 38. Dont really know, what to make of this. I always held the opinion, both chapters describe different aspects of the same war. Has anyone any helpful ideas on this approach? Are there some killing arguments to his theory? Must admit, it sounds a bit confusing to me, on the other hand I am always committed to find the truth. @mods: if you think it is not appropriate to discuss Tim McHyde here, please feel free to remove this post. |
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Post by whatif on Nov 5, 2017 10:12:52 GMT -6
I've never heard that theory before, stephan, but after reading the article it seems an interesting speculation!
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Post by rt on Nov 6, 2017 18:25:07 GMT -6
Stumbled over this article, recently (rev12daily in some comment section): escapeallthesethings.com/gog-magog/In a nutshell, the author says that Ez 38 is a different war than the war from Ez 39 and separated by at least 1000yrs. Ez 39 is to happen first, then Ez 38. Dont really know, what to make of this. I always held the opinion, both chapters describe different aspects of the same war. Has anyone any helpful ideas on this approach? Are there some killing arguments to his theory? Must admit, it sounds a bit confusing to me, on the other hand I am always committed to find the truth. @mods: if you think it is not appropriate to discuss Tim McHyde here, please feel free to remove this post. So if I may... let's look at the passages. Now if you will indulge me for a few moments, just pretend that the Gog war does not begin before the 70th week or even at it's start.
So here in this passage we see Gog attacking Israel who is at this point living securely. The article in the link above says that this is evidence that shows this is a different war that that in Ezekiel 39. Claiming that it bears no resemblance to Israel today and in that they are correct. The reason they cannot reconcile the two chapters is because they are trying to build on what I believe is a faulty foundation one that believes that this war happens in Israel as it is today. I would disagree. Is it not possible that the confirmed covenant that begins the 70th week could see many Jews who are still scattered abroad return to Israel? Is it also possible that the man of Lawlessness who Jews may see as a Savior figure who would promise to rebuild the temple would usher in an unprecedented time of peace in the middle east? If I am correct about my assumption that this war does not begin with an Israel as it is today, we should be able to find something in the prophetic words of the New Testament that correlates to this "army" that comes against Israel, that shows a different timeline: Here we see that Jerusalem's desolation is near when it is surrounded by armies, now what is interesting is that the parallel passage in Matthew says that those in Judea flee when they see the abomination of desolation Is there a contradiction here between these two passages? I think not, both things happen simultaneously. The Abomination of Desolation happens and at the same time armies surround Jerusalem. These are two signs given so that all those in Judea will know to flee to the mountains. Now what is interesting in Luke is that "this people" (those in Judea who do not escape) are led captive into all the nations and Jerusalem is trampled by the Gentiles. So we see that there is a scattering that happens at the time of the Abomination of Desolation. Most would agree that the AOD happens at or around the midpoint of Daniel's week. So do we see any evidence of a large army gathering in the Revelation? Later in the Revelation we see that the ten Kings who align themselves with the "beast" make war with her, I personally believe that the "woman" and the "harlot" is Israel and more specifically Jerusalem, the same woman who rides the beast. Notice that word again..... "desolate" also here in this passage we see the "dragon" persecuting the "woman" (Israel) who gave birth to the male child, and we see this woman fleeing for protection for what I believe is the second half of the 70th week (those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains) and then the dragon making war with the rest of her children. These instances of war are all connected, they are one in the same, Gog coming against Israel. It is my belief, and you are free to disagree, that the Gog magog war spoken of in Ezekiel 38 begins at the midpoint of the 70th week. cont'd... |
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Post by rt on Nov 6, 2017 18:55:05 GMT -6
cont'd...
So what is the result of this war that I believe begins at the midpoint of the 70th week?
As a result God's anger mounts against those that come against Israel
There is a great earthquake in the land of Israel that shakes all who are on the face of the earth
A sword comes against Gog, every man's sword against his brother
There will be torrential rain and hailstones, fire and brimstone
God will be magnified in the sight of many nations
doesn't this sound similar to this:
This is also a result:
God strikes the bow from Gog's hands
He and his armies fall on the mountains of Israel
They are given as food to birds and beasts
God's name will be made known among His people Israel
His name will be profaned no longer
Doesn't this sound similar to this:
As in most wars, there are many battles that take place. There is a start and an end. The battle begins when Gog joins with a coalition to surround and attack Jerusalem, it ends when they join forces with additional allies and make war against God Himself at Armageddon. Jesus intervenes and slays the enemy with the sword that proceeds from His mouth, essentially with a word!
So the article seems to make the case that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are separated by the 1000 year reign. I would agree that there will be an additional battle at the end of that reign as described here:
There is nothing described here that sounds similar to what is described in Ezekiel 38 or 39. As I mentioned in one of the posts here, these are the descendants of those nations who went against Israel at Armageddon, these will be born during the millennium to the people of those nations who survive. The sword does not destroy them, rather they are devoured by fire from heaven.
The result of the war described in Ezekiel is the restoration of Israel, their reconciliation as a nation to God, this is the purpose for the 70th week :
So though I agree that there are two Gog Magog wars, I would disagree with the premise that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are separated by 1000 years.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 13:59:40 GMT -6
Thank you very much for your extensive study, rt, really helpful and enlightening! Regarding the possible connections between Rev and Ez 38/39, I would dare saying, this may very well be. Time will tell, but I hope, we will watch these upcoming events from the upper balcony... And of course I agree with the final war of Gog/Magog in the very end after the Millennium. This is clearly stated in Rev 20:7-9, as you said. But like you, I would also not say, that this war is mentioned in Ez 38/39. You further mentioned Luke 21:20–24 and Matthew 24:15–21 May I add my view of these two scriptures? Matthew speaks of the AoD, what gives a clear indication that this scripture points to the 70th week of Daniel. In my opinion Luke speaks mainly of the destruction of the second temple in 70 A.D. and the beginning of the end times. The context of this scripture is, that the disciples pointed Jesus to the huge stones of the temple and later Jesus told them, that no stone will be left on another. Later on the disciples asked Him of the time when this (the destruction of the temple) will take place and Jesus gave the answer to that question. |
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 20, 2017 3:54:16 GMT -6
One reason I put the 8th choice-- a dual fulfilment-- is due to the description-- a very clear description-- of the hand-to-hand combat weapons. Ezekiel (through God's direction) makes no attempt here to describe guns, bombs, missiles, etc. as actually seem to be described in certain other prophetic passages. To me, the simple weapons-- swords, shields, bucklers, bows, etc. are simple, rudimentary weapons. Since during the Millennium, mankind will not be taught how to make war anymore, the RAPID work of Satan's final hour could be expected to be hasty, imperfect work, using primitive weapons. With no futuristic weaponry wielded by Christ's "forces" Satan might convince the wicked of that generation-- quite possibly the "generation" of Proverbs 30-- (how lofty are their eyes, and their eyelids lifted up) that they actually have a chance against the people of the Lord using such weaponry-- any weapons at all will be a new thing to the "final generation" and so they will not question Satan's insistence that primitive weapons and methods are sufficient to destroy the Kingdom of Messiah. So it is my guess, that this is indeed a dual fulfilment prophecy. One fulfilment before the 70th Week begins (but either before or after the Rapture, it really doesn't matter), and the rest of the fulfilment in the final showdown of the planet. Hello watchmanjim, others. ;-)
It's such a fantastic topic, and we're seeing all the players align before our eyes. I can't change my answer on the survey, but I would like to say that I agree it's a dual fulfillment. This was made most clear by this talk of Amir Tsarfati. He is Jewish, and lives in Israel, and has connections in the Israeli intelligence.
I totally get that no matter which pastor, or end- times preacher we quote, someone has a problem, ;-) That's life, I guess, but I think we can glean truth from different people. Pastor Steve Cioccolanti has an excellent short video about 10 reasons why Gog of Magog is NOT Russia, and it's very very compelling. He is in very good company with others who show that with the Increase in Knowledge [Google Maps] etc. Due North - using a Geodesic line - straight line on a globe, Due North of Jerusalem goes directly through Ankara, and is a long way from Moscow. Barely even touches the edge of Russia. Perry Stone - misses the part about Russia being North of Israel, ** but he does an outstanding job of showing how Gog of Magog is a dual fulfillment. Totally separate places, different descriptions of the battle and in one, Christ himself will intervene and deliver Israel. ;-) Just wow. !! Another very interesting thing is that he and others bring up a very good point, that - All seven churches of Revelation are in Turkey. - Revelation chapt 2 says that the Seat of Satan is in Turkey. Hmmmm. - The places listed Meshech and Tubal are in Turkey, not Russia. - Russia has never in the history of the world attacked Israel. - All of the countries that have attacked Israel in modern history have all been Muslim countries. Then, pastor JD Farag has brilliant insight that sheds much light and insight as to the timing - catalyst. He believes, [and makes a very clear case - that Damascus is even as we speak, virtually desolate, almost unhabitable, and that this is the catalyst for the Ezekiel 38/39 war. [First one] All the players are in place. I'm looking at the Middle East, and looking up. Maranatha,
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Post by disciple4life on Nov 23, 2017 8:32:37 GMT -6
This is a very short but incredible clip. It's about 6 minutes - well worth the time. Yesterday - Wednesday, Nov 22, was a huge, huge development - the first time ever in history that these three nations have made an alliance. Russia, Iran and Turkey made an alliance in Sochi. I realize that there are other views and perspectives. ;-) Joel Richardson is the only one I know of who actually points out both methods and the two views.
Joel Richardson uses very clear and solid hermeneutic - looking at the historical, grammatical and geographical context. .
Pastor Steve Ciocciolanti says the exact same thing - Gog is the Person [Prince] OF Magog. Magog - the Place. Most Bible atlases concur that all these cities in Ezekiel are in Asia Minor - Turkey. Togormah, Meshech, Tubal.
There is no scriptural evidence for Russia being Gog or Magog, or part of the Ezekiel 38 & 39 war. We can't take words from Biblical languages [or any language] and say it sounds like this word in English.
- This is one of THE biggest reasons - so many have been led to believe for so many years that Magog is Russia. "Meshech sounds like Moscow and Rosh sounds like Russia, and Tubal sounds like Tbilisi.
 This linguistic "false friend/ [linguistic interference] is how people thought Pennsylvania immigrants were "Dutch" - The German word for German sounds a little like "Dutch", to English speakers.
- The other huge factor that has caused so much confusion is the misnomer/ that Russia is North of Israel. It's North on a flat map, but a Geodesic line [Straight line on a globe due North from Jerusalem] goes directly through Ankara. Barely even hits the edge of Russia - not highly populated areas - Nowhere near Moscow.
This is the Longer version that thoroughly explains both sides and methods. ;-)
***Russia may likely be involved, - The nations are not exhaustive - and it says many nations, and with this in mind, this huge alliance between Russia, Iran and Turkey is Huge and has Major prophetic/ end times implications. So exciting -- I think we're seeing Birth pangs.
"Even So, Lord Jesus, Come" Maranatha!! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2017 13:32:48 GMT -6
This is a very short but incredible clip. It's about 6 minutes - well worth the time. Yesterday - Wednesday, Nov 22, was a huge, huge development - the first time ever in history that these three nations have made an alliance. Russia, Iran and Turkey made an alliance in Sochi. I realize that there are other views and perspectives. ;-) Joel Richardson is the only one I know of who actually points out both methods and the two views.
Joel Richardson uses very clear and solid hermeneutic - looking at the historical, grammatical and geographical context. .
Pastor Steve Ciocciolanti says the exact same thing - Gog is the Person [Prince] OF Magog. Magog - the Place. Most Bible atlases concur that all these cities in Ezekiel are in Asia Minor - Turkey. Togormah, Meshech, Tubal.
There is no scriptural evidence for Russia being Gog or Magog, or part of the Ezekiel 38 & 39 war. We can't take words from Biblical languages [or any language] and say it sounds like this word in English.
- This is one of THE biggest reasons - so many have been led to believe for so many years that Magog is Russia. "Meshech sounds like Moscow and Rosh sounds like Russia, and Tubal sounds like Tbilisi. This linguistic "false friend/ [linguistic interference] is how people thought Pennsylvania immigrants were "Dutch"
- The German word for German sounds a little like "Dutch", to English speakers.
- The other huge factor that has caused so much confusion is the misnomer/ that Russia is North of Israel. It's North on a flat map, but a Geodesic line [Straight line on a globe due North from Jerusalem] goes directly through Ankara. Barely even hits the edge of Russia - not highly populated areas - Nowhere near Moscow.
This is the Longer version that thoroughly explains both sides and methods. ;-)
***Russia may likely be involved, - The nations are not exhaustive - and it says many nations, and with this in mind, this huge alliance between Russia, Iran and Turkey is Huge and has Major prophetic/ end times implications. So exciting -- I think we're seeing Birth pangs.
"Even So, Lord Jesus, Come" Maranatha!! Geographic coordinates according to Wikipedia Jerusalem: 31° 47′ N, 35° 13′ OAnkara: 39° 55′ N, 32° 51′ OMoscow: 55° 45′ N, 37° 37′ OThis means, that Moscow is about +2° off, Ankara about -2° off if you draw a geodesic line from Jerusalem to north. Check for yourself on a globe. In other words, the red marked claim above cannot be true. I have heard this several times, but it is simply false, according to verifyable facts. |
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This linguistic "false friend/ [linguistic interference] is how people thought Pennsylvania immigrants were "Dutch"