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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 7, 2017 7:46:31 GMT -6
Over the past few years, one of the books of the Bible I have been most drawn to and fascinated with is Ezekiel. While studying it and exhorting people out of it, many passages have enthralled me, but the Gog passage (Ezekiel 38 and 39) is one of the most interesting and curious passages in regards to eschatology.
The passage is extremely lucid, compared to many prophecies-- so concise, matter-of-fact, and descriptive.
Many people have pored over these chapters and had many different questions, answers, and conclusions. The passage is fairly clear about what happens and where. (though there is some debate of some of it). What is much less clear is who and when. Who is Gog, who are the nations, and when will this occur?
I need to go to work now, but will come back to this later. For now-- let me especially throw out the standard timing estimations, and we'll go from there. . . .
1. Happens any time now, previous to the Rapture
2. Happens before Rapture, but can't happen until other things happen first (perhaps Ps. 83 war).
3. Happens about the time of the Rapture, right before, or shortly after, but before the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.
4. Happens right in the vicinity of the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, possibly triggering the covenant of the week, or in response to it.
5. Any other time during the 70th week, between the beginning and the end.
6. At the end of the 70th week-- Gog's invasion is the same as Armageddon.
7. The Gog passage of Ezekiel actually refers to the Revelation 20:7-9 "Gog and Magog" uprising at the END of the Millennial Reign.
8. It is a dual-fulfilment prophecy, showing elements of both #7 and [pick] 1 of the others.
9. Other (and sorry I forgot to put that on the poll)
There are possible reasons why this may be the case for many of these ideas, and some compelling reasons why it may not be many of these. Discussion time!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 14:14:12 GMT -6
This battle really confuses me because they are said to all be on horses, with shields and what looks like ancient kinds of weapons. I had to vote for the fifth option because I think it will happen in the Tribulation, but I also think it could be the battle mentioned in Revelation 20 because Gog and Magog are mentioned by name. Long story short, I haven't yet heard a satisfactory explanation. Maybe Russia or Turkey, but where are all their horses? I can see though that Russia, Iran and Turkey + some countries in Africa like Libya are lining up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2017 14:33:22 GMT -6
Anytime now! To me it looks like its basically happeneing already with all these bad countries threatening the Jews and fighting in the middle east. I won't be surprised if we wake up one morning and its happening.
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 7, 2017 19:39:29 GMT -6
One big clue I look to is the "cleanup timeframe." It takes seven months to bury the dead armies of Gog in Ezekiel 39:11-16. It also takes seven years to deplete the burning of the fuel (seemingly wood) of the weapons. 39:9-10. This is not burning them to be rid of them, but burning them as fuel for their fires rather than cutting trees to use for firewood. (now tell me, here may be a clue-- does Israel use firewood today? Not that I know of. . . .)
But regardless, there are seven years of burning the weapons. This makes the End-of-Millennium option rather difficult, since we basically understand this Gog/Magog End-of-Millenium War (GMEOMW) to occur right at the end of the Millennium reign of Christ-- therefore, where did the extra seven years come from? Also adding up against the GMEOMW option is the fact that the methodical cleanup process of 39:11-16 appears to be orchestrated by a civil government, and not by Christ the King. He does not appear to be involved directly and personally (on earth) in any of this process, which also suggests that this is at least not strictly speaking of Armageddon. A Gog invasion that is the same as Armageddon would mean the described cleanup process would take place in the first year (and seven years) of Christ's kingdom. While not impossible, this does not seem to fit the description of the text-- and it seems from other passages that Christ Himself will rearrange the geography of the Holy Land and make it habitable for His Kingdom-- which also seems to be at odds with any part of the described Gog cleanup process taking place during the beginning of his reign on earth.
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Post by Gary on Mar 8, 2017 13:51:30 GMT -6
One big clue I look to is the "cleanup timeframe." It takes seven months to bury the dead armies of Gog in Ezekiel 39:11-16. It also takes seven years to deplete the burning of the fuel (seemingly wood) of the weapons. 39:9-10. This is not burning them to be rid of them, but burning them as fuel for their fires rather than cutting trees to use for firewood. (now tell me, here may be a clue-- does Israel use firewood today? Not that I know of. . . .) But regardless, there are seven years of burning the weapons. This makes the End-of-Millennium option rather difficult, since we basically understand this Gog/Magog End-of-Millenium War (GMEOMW) to occur right at the end of the Millennium reign of Christ-- therefore, where did the extra seven years come from? Also adding up against the GMEOMW option is the fact that the methodical cleanup process of 39:11-16 appears to be orchestrated by a civil government, and not by Christ the King. He does not appear to be involved directly and personally (on earth) in any of this process, which also suggests that this is at least not strictly speaking of Armageddon. A Gog invasion that is the same as Armageddon would mean the described cleanup process would take place in the first year (and seven years) of Christ's kingdom. While not impossible, this does not seem to fit the description of the text-- and it seems from other passages that Christ Himself will rearrange the geography of the Holy Land and make it habitable for His Kingdom-- which also seems to be at odds with any part of the described Gog cleanup process taking place during the beginning of his reign on earth. Hey Jim, Thank you for starting this thread. It is a good topic to discuss. I voted for the last option (dual fulfillment), but have to say that I do find the circumstances of this war difficult to fit with the different scenarios, but I think perhaps shortly after the rapture makes sense. Maybe 1. Rapture, 2. Psalm 83, 3. Isaiah 17, 4. Israel is victorious and tears down its walls, 5. Gog/Magog. Problem is, 1-4 would have to take place in a very short period of time for the 7 years of weapon-cleanup to align with the 7 year tribulation. Perhaps there is a gap between the rapture and the beginning of the trib. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 8, 2017 22:15:12 GMT -6
Yes, Gary, it would make sense for there to be a significant gap between the rapture and the the beginning of the trib-- and yet that's difficult to fit in with the timeline of the sign of the woman in Rev. 12. Again this is part of what I was alluding to in another thread about wondering if maybe the "obvious" timeline many have deduced to have the trib beginning at or shortly after the Sept. 23 sign, is not quite so. It is partly because of the mystery of the timing of Gog that I have my concerns about assuming a 2017 rapture, and/or a 2017 beginning of the 70th week. I may start a new thread about the possibilities-- I have several reasons for wondering if their is a "hidden time insert" between now and the beginning of the 70th week-- for instance, an insert of oh, say-- another seven years to go through prior to the beginning of the 70th week. I have several reasons for wondering this. The cleanup of Gog's mess is one key reason for me to wonder this. The description of the cleanup appears to me to be a methodical "now-world" response to an Israeli national disaster-- undertaken by inhabitants of the land who were already living there prior to the invasion, and are comfortable in their own skin. Try to fit THOSE criteria into any part of the 70th week. Remembering, in particular, that the remnant of Israel is to go and hide in the wilderness for 1,260 days which we take to be one half of Daniel's 70th week. Surely the setting up of the AOD in the temple, and all that ensues with that, would be highly disruptive to this seven years burning of the fuel from Gog's military hardware. At least, so it seems to me. But I could be missing something! In fact, I know I'm missing something. Once I figure out what I'm missing, it will all make sense!  |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 8, 2017 22:28:11 GMT -6
One reason I put the 8th choice-- a dual fulfilment-- is due to the description-- a very clear description-- of the hand-to-hand combat weapons. Ezekiel (through God's direction) makes no attempt here to describe guns, bombs, missiles, etc. as actually seem to be described in certain other prophetic passages. To me, the simple weapons-- swords, shields, bucklers, bows, etc. are simple, rudimentary weapons. Since during the Millennium, mankind will not be taught how to make war anymore, the RAPID work of Satan's final hour could be expected to be hasty, imperfect work, using primitive weapons. With no futuristic weaponry wielded by Christ's "forces" Satan might convince the wicked of that generation-- quite possibly the "generation" of Proverbs 30-- (how lofty are their eyes, and their eyelids lifted up) that they actually have a chance against the people of the Lord using such weaponry-- any weapons at all will be a new thing to the "final generation" and so they will not question Satan's insistence that primitive weapons and methods are sufficient to destroy the Kingdom of Messiah. So it is my guess, that this is indeed a dual fulfilment prophecy. One fulfilment before the 70th Week begins (but either before or after the Rapture, it really doesn't matter), and the rest of the fulfilment in the final showdown of the planet.
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 9, 2017 9:19:53 GMT -6
The analysis over at Tracking Bible Prophecy is a good study. He brings out points I had not considered, but I also think I may not align with him on some of the details. One good key thing he says is that Gog is probably an evil spirit who leads Russia and the other nations into this conflict, and that would mean the exact human leader of Russia would not be important. It would also mean the human leader's exact name would not have to be Gog. trackingbibleprophecy.com/gog_magog.php |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 9, 2017 9:29:59 GMT -6
However I would like to point out that the Hebrew name Gog is spelled Gimel Vav Gimel. This does not have to be pronounced Gog. Vav can be pronounced O, U, or V. Also, all Hebrew letters are considered consonants, with vowels typically applied to them. Gimel never takes a silent consonant role, unlike Vav. There are many ways Gog could be pronounced, including, but not limited to:
Gog
Gug
Goog
Gavag
Gavog
Givag
Geveg
etc.
Now throw in the possibility it could be an acronym. G.O.G. or G.U.G. or G.V.G. For instance, in English, G.O.G. can stand for Goliath of Gath. (but not in Hebrew).
Then there's this. I recently asked an Israelite Hebrew speaker how I should spell my name, Jim, in Hebrew. I suggested Yod Yod Mem- since there is no letter in Hebrew that says the J sound. He told me no, in modern Hebrew they have made an accommodation for spelling the J sound, since many English-speaking people have names beginning with J, and accommodating Hebrew speakers have wanted to acknowledge the pronunciation. He said I should spell my name Gimel Yod Mem, with a dot above the right side of the Gimel. He says in modern Hebrew, that dotted Gimel is recognized a the J sound.
Which is why I could easily see Gog being a name like George.
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Post by Gary on Mar 9, 2017 14:05:43 GMT -6
Great thoughts Jim. I think that's a good point that the ancient weapons could be the part of the prophecy directed at the post-millennium battle. Perhaps the relevant portions for our day are simply the mentioned members of the alliance (like Russia, Turkey, Iran, Sudan, and Libya + unnamed others), which is an alliance we see forming rapidly now. Sheba and Dedan's v. 13 protest is practically already taking place (Saudi Arabia backing the FSA and/or ISIS and/or various al Qaeda-esque elements in Syria against Syrian, Iranian, and Russian forces).
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 9, 2017 20:50:59 GMT -6
I do agree with the hunch some people have, about Tarshish representing the Spanish/English western world-- England and Spain both have the lion as their symbol-- the Western hemisphere is dominated by nations founded by Tarshish (England, Spain, Portugal). "The merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof", when coupled with the idea of "ships of tarshish" meaning merchant ships of long, even intercontinental, voyage capacity, IMO points to the English/Spanish/Portugese axis-- nations renowned for their intercontinental trading ships. The British empire in particular, spanned the globe, and its young lions are stable and distant nations like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. The US can be included as well, as a cultural-people group, I think.
Interesting that Jonah fled for Tarshish-- "the uttermost parts of the sea." In Bible times, I think that Tarshish represented the ultimate uttermost farthest place away that anyone could go.
In the USA we have grown up in the last few decades with the idea that the USA can go anywhere, do anything, and solve any problem-- hang the expense! This is a passing illusion. When Gog launches his attack on Israel, Tarshish will sit idly by, chewing her nails and halfheartedly saying like Jehoshaphat of old-- "Let the king not say so. . . . ."
I will plan on saying more about this in the Daniel 7 thread
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Post by Gary on Mar 20, 2017 8:16:22 GMT -6
I've been watching to see if Libya and Sudan would soon align with Russia-Turkey-Iran, and it seems like that is happening. Russian forces are now in Libya. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 21, 2017 2:26:37 GMT -6
Gary, I am one that subscribes to the possibility that today's Ethiopia is Ezekiel's Ethiopia. Sudan may involve the ancient kingdom of Cush, and it could be involved in this Gog war, but Ethiopia itself is jostling for position as top dog in the African continent. They have already pretty much cornered diplomacy for the continent, and their military, while not high-funded, is very well organized and trained.
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Post by Gary on Mar 21, 2017 7:56:07 GMT -6
You could very well be right. I've tended to go with Sudan because of its Muslim population and antisemitism, and it seems to perhaps be in the area of ancient Ethiopia / Cush. I could be wrong though. Ethiopia is head of the African Union, though, and relatively powerful.
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Post by watchmanjim on Mar 22, 2017 0:31:26 GMT -6
It could be either or both. I look to Ethiopia to be a major player.
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