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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 11:06:13 GMT -6
Quick summary: The man child in Rev. 12 has been identified as a corporate body partially because of this passage:
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
The reasoning being this is addressed to the seven churches, and so it is not just Jesus exclusively having a rod of iron.
I think the above is correct, but here is the problem. The rod of iron is clearly only given to them that overcome. If the 9/23/2017 date is correct, the only ones taking part in it will be overcomers.
As far as I can tell, no one is addressing this issue. Shouldn't the people pushing the Rev. 12 sign also be announcing that one has to be an overcomer in order to participate?
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 22, 2017 11:23:40 GMT -6
No, I don't think it's exclusive, as far as I can tell. The fact that the body of the church will rule with the Lord's rod of iron does not have to mean that every individual person gets to. It is clear that at the judgment seat of Christ, the redeemed will be rewarded according to their works--ie, those whose works are greater, receive greater reward. And evidently some will be rewarded little to none at all, except to say that they are allowed salvation. Our great friend the thief on the cross comes to mind--he had no time to do much in the way of works, and yet he is saved. Quite possibly many who did little to nothing for our Lord will not be considered overcomers, and they will not be able to wield the rod of iron. Rather, they will be "least in the kingdom." They may not have any mortals to rule over, but serve as vassals of those who are indeed overcomers. This I do not know as fact, but rather as conjecture based on my best understanding of the process.
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Post by Jeff on Jun 22, 2017 11:25:29 GMT -6
Greg, please see 1 John 5:1-5 for the apostles' definition of an "overcomer" (or "conqueror, victor, etc."); see especially verse 5. There is no scandal here...only the scandal of the gospel. It's under siege.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 22, 2017 11:29:51 GMT -6
Good point, Jeff, and that is probably the far better explanation than what I was saying.  1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? |
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 11:45:40 GMT -6
Jeff, please note that of the seven churches, only one, Philadelphia, is told it would be kept from the hour of temptation. Philadelphia is also the only one that isn't told to repent from something.
As far as 1 John 5:1-5, I see this:
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Another look at the passage:
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
It sure seems like overcoming involves works.
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Post by whatif on Jun 22, 2017 12:17:51 GMT -6
It is clear that at the judgment seat of Christ, the redeemed will be rewarded according to their works--ie, those whose works are greater, receive greater reward. And evidently some will be rewarded little to none at all, except to say that they are allowed salvation. Our great friend the thief on the cross comes to mind--he had no time to do much in the way of works, and yet he is saved. Quite possibly many who did little to nothing for our Lord will not be considered overcomers, and they will not be able to wield the rod of iron. Rather, they will be "least in the kingdom." They may not have any mortals to rule over, but serve as vassals of those who are indeed overcomers. This I do not know as fact, but rather as conjecture based on my best understanding of the process. Yes, this is what I also understand, watchmanjim! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 12:45:59 GMT -6
Jesus came to fulfill the Law.
Luke 24
44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
John 6:28-29 28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
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Post by whatif on Jun 22, 2017 12:52:51 GMT -6
Amen to that, truthseeker! And the only way to be able to love thy neighbor is through the Holy Spirit's work in our lives. The Holy Spirit is the One who changes our hearts and minds and fills our souls so that through Him--through His work--we are able to love in the way God would desire us to love.
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 12:59:39 GMT -6
There seems to be a belief that believing the gospel automatically makes one an overcomer. I would refute that notion with the seven churches in Revelation and this:
Philippians 2:12 ¶Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 13:02:53 GMT -6
One can ONLY overcome through Christ. There IS NO overcoming without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And once you've become a believer - you are IN CHRIST and IN "THE OVERCOMER". Jesus clearly stated - 'no works' in John 6:28-29.
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 13:12:23 GMT -6
One can ONLY overcome through Christ. There IS NO overcoming without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And once you've become a believer - you are IN CHRIST and IN "THE OVERCOMER". Jesus clearly stated - 'no works' in John 6:28-29. No, He didn't say that, that's your interpretation: John 6:28 ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. The same Jesus: Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Paul had something to say about works and the end times: Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 13:12:36 GMT -6
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - means at your own development pace and WITH REVERENCE TO ALL THINGS WITH GOD. We do not grow/mature the same. We each have different understandings, gifts, lessons. And HE is the one doing it - working in us to WANT TO and CARRY THROUGH with the purposes of his good pleasure. IT'S ALL HIM! He's doing it all.
I'm hearing tones of comparing one to another, lofting oneself better than another because of what 'one has done in comparison to another'. That is a works based faith; that kind of thinking is from the 'other' side.
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 13:24:40 GMT -6
Work out your salvation with fear and trembling - means at your own development pace and WITH REVERENCE TO ALL THINGS WITH GOD. We do not grow/mature the same. We each have different understandings, gifts, lessons. And HE is the one doing it - working in us to WANT TO and CARRY THROUGH with the purposes of his good pleasure. IT'S ALL HIM! He's doing it all.
I'm hearing tones of comparing one to another, lofting oneself better than another because of what 'one has done in comparison to another'. That is a works based faith; that kind of thinking is from the 'other' side.
Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Why is it that when you quoted Eph. 2:8 and 9, you couldn't include v10: Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. As far as what you think you are hearing, you might want to have your hearing checked. How about simply acknowledging what the New Testament has to say about works in the life of a believer? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2017 13:49:39 GMT -6
Greg,
If my memory, not my 'hearing', serves me correct - you were waiting to talk to us AFTER September 23. What made you come back? Looks like things haven't changed and we appear to still be people that you don't like, but still want to debate with. You open a thread, and start off with a blast at everyone. Would you prefer that we don't engage at all with your threads?
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Post by gregt on Jun 22, 2017 13:53:57 GMT -6
Greg, You open a thread, and start off with a blast at everyone. That's a false accusation. Not sure what else to say. |
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