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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 23, 2017 6:39:37 GMT -6
However, we messed up. Emotions got high and a good disscution turned into a battlefield. Thus, I propose an unofficial rule; that whenever somebody shows up with a different theology, we treat them with loving-kindness, and try to lay down our case peacefully and respectfully. Since most people on this board will be Christ followers, we will be then able to have a peaceful conversation. I think if everyone kept this rule, we would have less incidences like this. This was never an easy thing. In my case, I don't believe I let my emotions direct me. We were all extremely patient with gregt. We pleaded with him, we were kind to him, and he did not respond well. He was here to provoke us. His questions were not for the purpose of finding anything out. They were for the purpose of assaulting our faith. He did not respond positively to any of our many attempts to help him. It is always a painful thing whenever anyone rejects the truth. Regarding the rules of this board, we did not shut him down immediately when he broke the rules. We patiently explained the questions he asked. He refused our explanations. As we pointed out before, the purpose of this board does not include debating core doctrines. There are many many other places where that can be done. There comes a time when things like this have to be shut down. Would it have been profitable to just let him go on and on? |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 23, 2017 6:46:13 GMT -6
I think we have failed here brothers and sisters!Gregt simply brought up a challenge to look closely at what the scriptures state. Whether Gregt is right or wrong makes no difference... A Brother, yes, someone who believes Yeshua died for our sins, has with courage come out to challenge our understandings... And because we don't believe his concerns... we boot him? This same thing is going on with everyone I know... I am bombarded with "christians" I know that are in direct opposition to the sign because of "this is astrology" or "no one knows the day or the hour"... we as believers are not in agreement here... we are falling apart! I stand with Gregt, and regardless of whether he is right or wrong, ask that his status is restored immediately... Please brothers and sisters... apologise, repent and forgive... Brad, I'm sorry you feel this way. You, like everyone else, had weeks to engage and help gregt. After a while, it becomes unprofitable to continue a discussion where one side is open-minded, and the other sided is not. We were the open-minded side. We considered everything he said. I even searched my own soul and understanding of the Lord to see whether he might be right about the things he said. I concluded that he was not right about his insistence on works as a part of salvation, when the Bible is clear that is not the case. I don't believe we failed him. If that were the case, we have also failed every person we ever came in contact with, whom we did not convince to be saved by Christ. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 7:00:57 GMT -6
Beloved/Brad,
I wrote a long post today explaining how much I prayed throughout that conversation that would Jesus would take me over so that I would have the right things to say for Gregt. When I got to the very end of the explanation, I realized that at the end of the day there would be no change to the outcome. Therefore I deleted it .
Works is going to be a foundation made of sand and it will fall apart. It is faith in Christ alone of the work 'of the cross'. That is going to drive some people of certain religions crazy. GregT is at a crossroads, where his will is crossing with God's, The BEST we can do is pray for his heart to be open to the Truth. We could debate with him for hours, and without God opening his heart to the Truth, it will still end the same.
Brad, you seem to know him. I noticed your statement that he was 'a believer'. I think we have discussed greatly that we have had to see someone's fruits for a long time before we can make a solid assessment. Maybe you have been around him, outside this site?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 8:31:31 GMT -6
Fair enough. To answer watchmanjim, no, it probably would not have been profitable. I just hate it when stuff like this happens. I understand it was necessary, but I wish it had ended on a better note. Mods, I think you should just delete this thread.
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Post by kjs on Jun 23, 2017 8:56:47 GMT -6
Fair enough. To answer watchmanjim, no, it probably would not have been profitable. I just hate it when stuff like this happens. I understand it was necessary, but I wish it had ended on a better note. Mods, I think you should just delete this thread. Beloved - I disagree with your assessment that this thread should be deleted. In my opinion, that is too much like sweeping the dirt under the rug – kind of out of sight out of mind – when in reality it is still there – simply not easily seen. You (Generic all You) will notice – I did NOT comment on this thread. That was a personal choice based upon an earlier run-in with this individual. In another thread, I was accused on insulting, and degrading this individual – simply because I made comments disagreeing with him. In that thread – I apologized and that my comments were not meant to offend – but simply explain how I saw things. This individual responded that I was given back-hand complements to insult him further. Both in that previous thread and now here in this thread – it appears the goal was to cause dissent and debates – without resolving any of the issues – but simply to “bicker”. As an aside – when this individual “stormed off” last time – his parting comment was “I’ll be back in September – to rub it end nothing happened”…. When He was asked why he came back earlier; he ignored the question…. Again it just seem his entire agenda was to cause “bickering” . |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2017 11:15:17 GMT -6
Thank you KJS and beloved, this is a very sad incident. I will post something later this afternoon about the scriptures that were being used and an indication of where this is all going. We are going to see much more of this. There was a blessing, though. And it will be useful.
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Post by whatif on Jun 23, 2017 11:53:15 GMT -6
However, we messed up. Emotions got high and a good disscution turned into a battlefield. Thus, I propose an unofficial rule; that whenever somebody shows up with a different theology, we treat them with loving-kindness, and try to lay down our case peacefully and respectfully. Since most people on this board will be Christ followers, we will be then able to have a peaceful conversation. I think if everyone kept this rule, we would have less incidences like this. This was never an easy thing. In my case, I don't believe I let my emotions direct me. We were all extremely patient with gregt. We pleaded with him, we were kind to him, and he did not respond well. He was here to provoke us. His questions were not for the purpose of finding anything out. They were for the purpose of assaulting our faith. He did not respond positively to any of our many attempts to help him. I am in agreement with watchmanjim, brothers and sisters, and I do know it causes sadness among us all when things like this happen. We pray for gregt, we forgive gregt, and we love gregt. Unfortunately, strife was occurring not only in what you can read in the threads, but also privately, and it was time to call it to a close. |
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Post by Gary on Jun 23, 2017 14:13:15 GMT -6
Hey friends,
I apologize I couldn't respond sooner. My wife and I are currently out of town. Just wanted to say that I'm sorry for this unfortunate debate, but I'm grateful for the opportunity that the mods had to expose what works-righteousness looks like. For all of gregt's talk about how faith alone isn't good enough you'd think he would then demonstrate good works. But that hasnt happened. Instead I've seen impatience, quick anger, lack of grace, accusations, and even gloating. Those are the fruits of works-righteousness and that doctrine has no power to save.
If it wasn't clear how gracious we've been to him, consider that a few weeks ago he leveled accusations against some of us and then stormed off saying he would return in September to gloat over us. Even after that, which clearly violated rule 3, we still did not ban him. No one is eager to ban anyone and we've had a discussion about how we want this place to have as few rules as possible and to remain as free and gracious as possible. Many forums don't have this much leniency. But after much grace and many attempts, mods did what they had to do and I fully support them.
Also, to be clear, with only three rules, gregt was violating rule 1 as well. We preach the Gospel of grace through faith. I honestly believe that many people who believe they are Christians yet have not submitted to Christ's righteousness and instead trust in themselves will be left behind. I don't know who those people are and I pray gregt is not one of them.
The Gospel is under attack right now in a huge way because Satan knows what's coming. He's trying to get Christians to abandon their hope and trust in themselves so that they'll be left behind and/or unproductive.
Sola fide is a great irony because when truly believed and understood it actually produces the only works truly acceptable to God:
Genuine gratitude
Genuine love
Graciousness
Patience
Kindness
Self-sacrifice
Self-control
And all the fruits of the Spirit
Works-righteousness (I.e. Faith is not enough) produces:
Self-righteousness
Anger
Stubborness
Haughtiness
Arrogance
Self-centeredness
Egoism
Fear
And every other fruit the LORD hates
The whole world and every other religion believes in some form of works-righteousness, but true Christianity does not.
Also, just to briefly touch on some Scriptures that have repeatedly come up in this thread:
1. Overcoming. The letters to the churches do not define what it means to "overcome". Gregt's solution is to assume that means works. That's where his faith seems to be - in his performance rather than Christ's performance. I'm with Jeff. The answer isn't to assume, but to go to Scripture and Scripture gives us the answer. It repeatedly says that overcomers are those who have faith in Christ. It is Jesus who overcame the world and we overcome through faith in Him. Period.
2. Ephesians 2:8-10. Gregt accused truthseeker or someone on here of glossing over "created... To do good works", but no one is arguing with that. Of course we were created to do good works, but Ephesians 2:8-9 puts good works in their PROPER PLACE. Not a CAUSE of salvation, but the EFFECT of salvation. This is such a simple doctrine yet many Christians can't seem to wrap their mind around it. Maybe spiritual blindness. Once you realize good works are an effect and not a cause of salvation it makes sense of other Scriptures, too, like James 2.
3. Philippians 2:12. Here again is another famous verse that the self-righteous use to their own detriment. It very clearly says "work OUT your salvation", not "work FOR your salvation" or "work TO OBTAIN salvation". The Greek leaves no room for the causative view. This verse then reveals the same cause/effect relationship of faith and works as is shown in Ephesians 2:8-9. Faith alone is the cause of salvation because through faith alone the perfect righteousness and Atonement of Christ is applied to us. Then once we have this unconditional grace we are then freed to ACTUALLY produce real good works.
Everyone here is privy to see the inner workings of a real spiritual war that has been going on since day 1 of the Church. The devil has come to steal are hope, but we will not let him. Resist him with everything you've got.
This is also why I cannot share or fellowship with certain individuals preaching the Revelation 12 Sign, because they are not my coworkers in the LORD. They would be Daniel Valles and to a lesser extent Jerry Toney. I think Toney is close, but he has revealed that he left pure grace quite awhile ago. I pray he steps back in soon.
Valles on the other hand is preaching pure venom. Don't take his poison.
I believe there will be a partial rapture, but not of Believers. Of Christendom. Those who truly trust in the LORD, as the Scriptures say, "will not be disappointed". But those who trust in themselves while only giving lip service to the Cross... Well let's just say I fear for them. They are not holy, but they think they are. They are in the same sinking boat as the world.
Last thing: the self-righteous always want to bring up "works" and "commandments" yet they define neither, leaving you in a perpetually fearful, murky, and uncertain muck. Regarding the oft repeated works and commandments that Christians "must" do.
This is the only work: to believe in Christ (John 6:28-29).
This is the only commandment: to love one another (John 13:34).
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Post by DefenderOfTruth on Jun 24, 2017 13:59:11 GMT -6
I agree with KJS, I'd rather not see this thread deleted. I for one, am trying to figure out more accurately how works plays into the Christian's life. I have always believed that, despite the fact that good works do not save, you cannot be pleasing to our Lord without showing your faith by your works. A "Christian" who has no works, is dead. But a Christian with works and who bears good fruit is only displaying their faith to God. They're an unprofitable servant no matter how "great" their works are. Is that the way most of you view it on this board?
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Post by whatif on Jun 24, 2017 14:22:46 GMT -6
I think the key is that once a person is saved through faith, the Holy Spirit works within that person's heart to begin changing him or her into the likeness of Jesus. In other words, He works within us to change our desires, our thoughts, our motives so that we want more and more to please the Lord, to live the way He wants us to live, to be a witness for Him in words and in deeds, and to turn further and further away from our old sin nature. Salvation can't be earned by good works, but the one who is saved by the Lord will in turn grow to desire to do good works because of the Holy Spirit's work in him or her. A Christian who is bearing good fruit is one who is allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work in his or her life. Good fruit has to do with the change of our hearts as the Holy Spirit produces all the good things the Lord desires to see in us--patience, love, faith, hope, mercy, generosity, obedience. He can see our motives, so He knows when we are doing "good deeds" out of true desire to please Him or out of true desire to make ourselves look good in the eyes of others. At the time of our rewards when we stand before the Lord, He will judge what each believer has done in His name and reward us according to His perfect knowledge of our motives.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 22:26:18 GMT -6
Let me first start off by letting you know I certainly standby 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Read Isaiah 49:6
And he said, it is a light thing that there should just be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give the for a light to the Gentiles, that they'll make us be my light and to the end of the earth.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the gospels – preached "the gospel of the kingdom". You will not see that term anywhere but in those books. The audience was the Jews/Jewish nation. The Jewish nation was supposed to be a light into the world
God was creating a people through which his Messiah could come from. They were going to looked act and live different than everyone else and they would be noticed for it.
Deuteronomy 26:18
And the Lord hath avouched the this day to be his but kill your people, as he had promised the, and that they'll should just keep all his commandments
If they did this, they would have Earthly blessings. See Deuteronomy 28
So Jesus was the Messiah and he came to save the Jews( tribes of Jacob, and preserved of Israel) FIRST
Matthew 15:34
But he answered and said, I am not sent that into the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
When the Jews did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, theTtribulation should have come in, but the work of the cross did something they didn't recognize – fulfill the law through a PERFECT MOSAIC sacrifice. Jesus' life - all the way to the crucifixion, was a completed picture of all the stories, parables, rituals of Mosaic law.
So tthe OT all the way through Acts 9:15- the focus/audience was the Jew.
But here we see a change, a split
Acts 9:15
The goal was to bring the believing Jew and gentile believer together into one new man.
Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
But they would have to be evangelized differently.
So now, one group stays evangelizing 'primarily' with Jew
Matthew10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
And the other group(Paul and others) went to evangelize 'primarily' Gentiles
Acts 9:15, But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.
14:27, 18:6, 22:21, 28:28
Paul was to be a pattern for the converted Gentile
1Timothy 1:15-16
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Because Gentiles could not begin to understand the Jewish heritage, rituals, commandments, and works - Paul would have to teach differently.
Hebrews - 1 John 3
Now here is where the Matthew 10 group teaches from. These converts would have to integrate back into their Jewish environment but with a full understanding. They were going to go against the tide of Judaism and they needed to understand the laws, commandments, works as the measure from "a heart of gratitude", not from a "lets make sure we get our blessing by doing it". God has always looked at the heart of a person.
SO,
If you look at the scriptures Gregt used, you"ll see they were to a Jewish audience. Lots of talk of laws, ordinances and works...Matthew and John (before the cross/to Jew Only) and 1John 5 to the Jewish convert.
I am a Gentile convert, I learn from Paul(Romans through Philemon), "to walk by faith alone, believing in/upon the "finished works/fulfillment of the law" by the life of a perfect Jew-Christ. It is Finished! He did them ALL and I am IN HIM.
If I were a Jewish convert, I would send people to Hebrews through John 3. Notice the introduction to all those..."spoke to the fathers, the twelve tribes, strangers 'scattered', that which we have seen, heard, handled,the elect lady, taking nothing from the Gentiles...
Arguing over verses to different audiences causes these troubles if you don't understand that.
I find it interesting that the Catholic Church stays mostly in the Jewish books, from the pulpit. They seem very similar to the Jewish faith just on the other side of the horse. True Christianity gets balanced on the horse, and rides in liberty (bevause of the work done of The Liberator)!
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Post by watchmanjim on Jun 24, 2017 22:39:41 GMT -6
I would hasten to point out, though, Truthseeker, I understand both Jews and gentiles to be saved the same way--by faith alone in Christ alone.
But I agree, the logic and scripture used to get them to the point of understanding will often be different.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 22:46:02 GMT -6
Defender,
They may be unprofitable, but they are still saved if they believe. Remember the thief(no time for works) and See Acts 16:29-31.
I feel that the moment we focus on our works(good enough, how many) then we are in danger of taking our eyes off Jesus. We just need to do a self check once in a while and make sure we're growing and being obedient when we're called. Paul will deserve much for what he's been through - I hope I'm not called to do what he did, and I'll look at him with much admiration in Heaven. . I try to remember I'll be casting my crowns at the feet of the one who enabled me to do ANY of the good works to begin with . I'll really be giving them back!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 22:50:07 GMT -6
Yes , Jim. Absolutely!
Ephesians 2:15
15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
But when we see works/commandments, we need to know where they stem from and under the new light.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 22:53:03 GMT -6
I was excited to read Habakkuk this week and see 2:2-4! So cool to see the time of Grace foretold!
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