|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 10:16:43 GMT -6
The bear is rising up on its side to grab a mouthful of ribs; 3 ribs specifically to the north west of Russia which all became NATO members on 22 November 2002. Just say'in. Daniel 7, the vision of the 4 beasts are one of the few visions, I think maybe even the only vision in Daniel that didn't get expounded on, or explained about by an angel. That tells me, IMHO, it was meant for the very end of days. Ukraine is a trap. It was explained by the Angel. It's the Medo-Persian empire, which was conquered by the Greek empire, who in turn were conquered by the Romans. Be careful of newspaper exegesis. I think you are mixing visions between Chapter 7 and 8. The bear with 3 ribs, the lion with eagle's wings that get plucked, the leopard with 4 heads and wings are not explained other than they are kings that seemingly show up at the same time as the 4th animal. The first 3 animals had their authority removed and their execution delayed and were not killed with the 4th animal per Daniel 7:12. This means they were ALIVE at the same time as the 4th beast. And since the rest of Daniel 7 paints the 4th beast as the beast kingdom with the 10 kings before Christ, we know this is all end times in Chapter 7. Chapter 8, with Medo-Persian empire and Greeks is history and all based from a different vision on a different day in a different chapter. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Mar 9, 2022 10:22:55 GMT -6
socalexile, uscgvet - one thing I am coming to better understand about prophecy is it is not always linear or a "once and done" fulfillment. Its more of a pattern with eventual and ultimate fulfillments.
|
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Mar 9, 2022 10:39:49 GMT -6
It was explained by the Angel. It's the Medo-Persian empire, which was conquered by the Greek empire, who in turn were conquered by the Romans. Be careful of newspaper exegesis. I think you are mixing visions between Chapter 7 and 8. The bear with 3 ribs, the lion with eagle's wings that get plucked, the leopard with 4 heads and wings are not explained other than they are kings that seemingly show up at the same time as the 4th animal. The first 3 animals had their authority removed and their execution delayed and were not killed with the 4th animal per Daniel 7:12. This means they were ALIVE at the same time as the 4th beast. And since the rest of Daniel 7 paints the 4th beast as the beast kingdom with the 10 kings before Christ, we know this is all end times in Chapter 7. Chapter 8, with Medo-Persian empire and Greeks is history and all based from a different vision on a different day in a different chapter. Problem is, you're saying that the Bear (Russia) eats the Lion (UK/EU/US - although the UK isn't in the EU anymore) in Daniel 7, but that's not actually written. If we assume that Russia is the Bear, then it can be argued that it arose from it's side after being put there by Nazi Germany, and devoured (conquered) eastern Europe already during WWII. BTW who is the Leopard? |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 10:50:52 GMT -6
socalexile , uscgvet - one thing I am coming to better understand about prophecy is it is not always linear or a "once and done" fulfillment. Its more of a pattern with eventual and ultimate fulfillments. I agree. As something for people to think about on this statement, ponder this: BibleHub Timeline places 2 Chronicles 36 around 609 BC. It was just before the 1st Temple was destroyed and Israel was sent into Babylon for 70 years.
So that means this next verse in Jeremiah 31 is about the events that occurred when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Israel: Yea, Nebuchadnezzar sacked Israel and Jerusalem. It was bad. But Matthew 2:17-18 said that this verse ( Jeremiah 31:15) was fulfilled when king Herod flew into a rage and killed the young children 2 years old or less.
So: actual Dual fulfillment of the same prophecy. |
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Mar 9, 2022 11:07:16 GMT -6
socalexile , uscgvet - one thing I am coming to better understand about prophecy is it is not always linear or a "once and done" fulfillment. Its more of a pattern with eventual and ultimate fulfillments. I agree. As something for people to think about on this statement, ponder this: BibleHub Timeline places 2 Chronicles 36 around 609 BC. It was just before the 1st Temple was destroyed and Israel was sent into Babylon for 70 years.
So that means this next verse in Jeremiah 31 is about the events that occurred when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Israel: Yea, Nebuchadnezzar sacked Israel and Jerusalem. It was bad. But Matthew 2:17-18 said that this verse ( Jeremiah 31:15) was fulfilled when king Herod flew into a rage and killed the young children 2 years old or less.
So: actual Dual fulfillment of the same prophecy. That's a tenuous interpretation. Regardless, that doesn't mean Daniel 7 can be interpreted to fit current events in a way that it's not written. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 11:18:39 GMT -6
I think you are mixing visions between Chapter 7 and 8. The bear with 3 ribs, the lion with eagle's wings that get plucked, the leopard with 4 heads and wings are not explained other than they are kings that seemingly show up at the same time as the 4th animal. The first 3 animals had their authority removed and their execution delayed and were not killed with the 4th animal per Daniel 7:12. This means they were ALIVE at the same time as the 4th beast. And since the rest of Daniel 7 paints the 4th beast as the beast kingdom with the 10 kings before Christ, we know this is all end times in Chapter 7. Chapter 8, with Medo-Persian empire and Greeks is history and all based from a different vision on a different day in a different chapter. Problem is, you're saying that the Bear (Russia) eats the Lion (UK/EU/US - although the UK isn't in the EU anymore) in Daniel 7, but that's not actually written. If we assume that Russia is the Bear, then it can be argued that it arose from it's side after being put there by Nazi Germany, and devoured (conquered) eastern Europe already during WWII. BTW who is the Leopard? I'm saying what we can know is this: The Bear, Lion with Eagles wings, and the 4 headed winged Leopard are all alive at the same time as the 4th beast (the anti-christ beast and harlot) because of Daniel 7:12. I'm theorizing: Russia is likely the bear and wants 3 ribs so he will go to war after them. The Lion with Eagles wings are likely the EU/UK/Australia/US as you pointed out and that the Eagle's wings (USA) are plucked off (maybe plucked off by the bear? maybe plucked off by the 4th beast?). I don't have a good theory on the 4 headed Leopard yet. I could assume Africa is a part of it. mike asked that we continue talking about the prophecy aspect potential of all of this, so, I put in my 2 cents. It's only 11 years away from 2033 AD. ~2000 years after the death of The Testator (Hebrews 9:14-17). |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 11:30:05 GMT -6
I agree. As something for people to think about on this statement, ponder this: BibleHub Timeline places 2 Chronicles 36 around 609 BC. It was just before the 1st Temple was destroyed and Israel was sent into Babylon for 70 years.
So that means this next verse in Jeremiah 31 is about the events that occurred when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Israel: Yea, Nebuchadnezzar sacked Israel and Jerusalem. It was bad. But Matthew 2:17-18 said that this verse ( Jeremiah 31:15) was fulfilled when king Herod flew into a rage and killed the young children 2 years old or less.
So: actual Dual fulfillment of the same prophecy. That's a tenuous interpretation. Regardless, that doesn't mean Daniel 7 can be interpreted to fit current events in a way that it's not written. Tenuous? How so? Didn't Jeremiah write all those words down into a roll and go about Israel and proclaim all that he wrote down to the people in ~630 BC? It's safe to assume that Jeremiah's roll's would have included Jeremiah 31:15. This means that what Jeremiah wrote, everything he wrote was for that time period. 2 Chronicles 36:21 confirms this for that time period and Matthew 2:17-18 confirms what Jeremiah wrote as also being for Jesus' time period (technically for both of Jesus' time periods, his first and second coming). EDIT: sorry, I accidently wrote 2 Chronicles 36:31 instead of 2 Chronicles 36:21 |
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Mar 9, 2022 11:32:39 GMT -6
Problem is, you're saying that the Bear (Russia) eats the Lion (UK/EU/US - although the UK isn't in the EU anymore) in Daniel 7, but that's not actually written. If we assume that Russia is the Bear, then it can be argued that it arose from it's side after being put there by Nazi Germany, and devoured (conquered) eastern Europe already during WWII. BTW who is the Leopard? I'm saying what we can know is this: The Bear, Lion with Eagles wings, and the 4 headed winged Leopard are all alive at the same time as the 4th beast (the anti-christ beast and harlot) because of Daniel 7:12. I'm theorizing: Russia is likely the bear and wants 3 ribs so he will go to war after them. The Lion with Eagles wings are likely the EU/UK/Australia/US as you pointed out and that the Eagle's wings (USA) are plucked off (maybe plucked off by the bear? maybe plucked off by the 4th beast?). I don't have a good theory on the 4 headed Leopard yet. I could assume Africa is a part of it. mike asked that we continue talking about the prophecy aspect potential of all of this, so, I put in my 2 cents. It's only 11 years away from 2033 AD. ~2000 years after the death of The Testator (Hebrews 9:14-17). You're reading current events into the text as far as what the Bear does. It doesn't say that the Bear goes to war with the Lion. And I pointed out that the UK isn't part of the EU anymore - don't twist what I post - that's a further problem for your interpretation since you're reading the EU and the UK into the text as one symbol when they aren't even one dominion. Current events just don't fit, especially when you look at what's actually happening on the ground vs. assuming what Putin is doing based on an image he curated for himself. |
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Mar 9, 2022 11:37:18 GMT -6
That's a tenuous interpretation. Regardless, that doesn't mean Daniel 7 can be interpreted to fit current events in a way that it's not written. Tenuous? How so? Didn't Jeremiah write all those words down into a roll and go about Israel and proclaim all that he wrote down to the people in ~630 BC? It's safe to assume that Jeremiah's roll's would have included Jeremiah 31:15. This means that what Jeremiah wrote, everything he wrote was for that time period. 2 Chronicles 36:31 confirms this for that time period and Matthew 2:17-18 confirms what Jeremiah wrote as also being for Jesus' time period (technically for both of Jesus' time periods, his first and second coming). Yeah I don't see it. 1 Chronicles 36 isn't quoting Jeremiah 31 as Matthew 2 is. There's a couple similar words but it's not a direct quote in 1 Chronicles. Might be quoting another passage in Jeremiah but I don't have the time or the motivation to dive deeper on it and it's irrelevant to this thread because of the issues already mentioned above. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 11:41:17 GMT -6
I'm saying what we can know is this: The Bear, Lion with Eagles wings, and the 4 headed winged Leopard are all alive at the same time as the 4th beast (the anti-christ beast and harlot) because of Daniel 7:12. I'm theorizing: Russia is likely the bear and wants 3 ribs so he will go to war after them. The Lion with Eagles wings are likely the EU/UK/Australia/US as you pointed out and that the Eagle's wings (USA) are plucked off (maybe plucked off by the bear? maybe plucked off by the 4th beast?). I don't have a good theory on the 4 headed Leopard yet. I could assume Africa is a part of it. mike asked that we continue talking about the prophecy aspect potential of all of this, so, I put in my 2 cents. It's only 11 years away from 2033 AD. ~2000 years after the death of The Testator (Hebrews 9:14-17). You're reading current events into the text as far as what the Bear does. It doesn't say that the Bear goes to war with the Lion. And I pointed out that the UK isn't part of the EU anymore - don't twist what I post - that's a further problem for your interpretation since you're reading the EU and the UK into the text as one symbol when they aren't even one dominion. Current events just don't fit, especially when you look at what's actually happening on the ground vs. assuming that Putin is doing based on an image he curated for himself. I said what the bear does is go after 3 ribs. I projected that those 3 ribs are the 3 Baltic NATO states of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Those 3 states were part of the Soviet USSR. If Russia goes after those 3 states, NATO would have no choice but to protect them. Current events can fit. Putin is using Ukraine as a trap for Nato. He's trying to get Nato to break their promise of not defending Ukraine, maybe by committing to Nato to a no-fly zone where Nato can shoot down any Russian aircraft over parts of Ukraine. If Nato does shoot down Russian aircraft, then that could give reason for Russia to go after Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Then we have a war. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Mar 9, 2022 11:43:01 GMT -6
Another very popular portion in Daniel ascribed to Alexander and his generals is in chapter 11. This is future prophecy about how things will shape up in the region. Most see this as the "silent" years after Malachi before the gospels, which werent silent, but were absent Inspired scripture. I know there is some conjecture in here as it seems everything isnt or wasnt fulfilled to the "T" - however with much of fitting into the prophecy it is mostly held that this was the fulfillment, BUT
when you get to verse 40 it reads at the time of the end. So was this fulfilled with Alexander or was it a foreshadow/type of things to come at the end...
|
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 11:44:42 GMT -6
Tenuous? How so? Didn't Jeremiah write all those words down into a roll and go about Israel and proclaim all that he wrote down to the people in ~630 BC? It's safe to assume that Jeremiah's roll's would have included Jeremiah 31:15. This means that what Jeremiah wrote, everything he wrote was for that time period. 2 Chronicles 36:31 confirms this for that time period and Matthew 2:17-18 confirms what Jeremiah wrote as also being for Jesus' time period (technically for both of Jesus' time periods, his first and second coming). Yeah I don't see it. 1 Chronicles 36 isn't quoting Jeremiah 31 as Matthew 2 is. There's a couple similar words but it's not a direct quote in 1 Chronicles. Might be quoting another passage in Jeremiah but I don't have the time or the motivation to dive deeper on it and it's irrelevant to this thread because of the issues already mentioned above. No, not 1 Chronicles 36... you're right on that. LOL. And I mistyped the verse. It's not 2 Chronicles 36:31 I meant 2 Chronicles 36:21. Sorry for the typo. 2 Chronicles 36 See: 2 Chronicles 36 has a small summary of the things that Jeremiah wrote about of which God told him to write down and spread it around. Jeremiah did that. 2 Chronicles 36:21 said that it was fulfilled at that time, but only "until the land enjoyed her sabbaths". So more of what Jeremiah is yet to be fulfilled it seems. |
|
|
|
Post by socalexile on Mar 9, 2022 12:01:14 GMT -6
You're reading current events into the text as far as what the Bear does. It doesn't say that the Bear goes to war with the Lion. And I pointed out that the UK isn't part of the EU anymore - don't twist what I post - that's a further problem for your interpretation since you're reading the EU and the UK into the text as one symbol when they aren't even one dominion. Current events just don't fit, especially when you look at what's actually happening on the ground vs. assuming that Putin is doing based on an image he curated for himself. I said what the bear does is go after 3 ribs. I projected that those 3 ribs are the 3 Baltic NATO states of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Those 3 states were part of the Soviet USSR. If Russia goes after those 3 states, NATO would have no choice but to protect them. Current events can fit. Putin is using Ukraine as a trap for Nato. He's trying to get Nato to break their promise of not defending Ukraine, maybe by committing to Nato to a no-fly zone where Nato can shoot down any Russian aircraft over parts of Ukraine. If Nato does shoot down Russian aircraft, then that could give reason for Russia to go after Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Then we have a war. Ok so why wouldn't the Bear be the USSR during WWII, when they conquered the Baltics then after counterattacking Germany? Then you don't have to read into what the Bible doesn't say about attacking the Lion. If you ignore the facts on the ground you can make anything fit. Russia can't even handle Ukraine, much less NATO. You have to make a lot of assumptions about Russian's military and economic capabilities that just aren't any evidence of and ignore that Russia has it's best units getting ground down atm. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 12:13:53 GMT -6
I said what the bear does is go after 3 ribs. I projected that those 3 ribs are the 3 Baltic NATO states of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. Those 3 states were part of the Soviet USSR. If Russia goes after those 3 states, NATO would have no choice but to protect them. Current events can fit. Putin is using Ukraine as a trap for Nato. He's trying to get Nato to break their promise of not defending Ukraine, maybe by committing to Nato to a no-fly zone where Nato can shoot down any Russian aircraft over parts of Ukraine. If Nato does shoot down Russian aircraft, then that could give reason for Russia to go after Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Then we have a war. Ok so why wouldn't the Bear be the USSR during WWII, when they conquered the Baltics then after counterattacking Germany? Then you don't have to read into what the Bible doesn't say about attacking the Lion. If you ignore the facts on the ground you can make anything fit. Russia can't even handle Ukraine, much less NATO. You have to make a lot of assumptions about Russian's military and economic capabilities that just aren't any evidence of and ignore that Russia has it's best units getting ground down atm. "why wouldn't the Bear be the USSR during WWII" Again because of Daniel 7:12. The Soviet Union collapsed and is no more. Atheist Communist USSR is no more. Orthodox Tzar (Caesar) Putin rules now. Whatever the bear is, and I believe it's Russia, it's alive along with the 4th animal. I don't believe the US is alive with the 4th animal. Those wings are plucked. I do believe the EU is alive as the Lion with the 4th animal. I don't have an opinion on the Leopard yet. Time will tell on that one I believe. Russia can nuke the US. If they have nuke tipped hypersonic weapons, our defenses have little chance to counter that. I know. I was trained as an electronics tech for maintenance of those defenses. |
|
|
|
Post by uscgvet on Mar 9, 2022 12:24:48 GMT -6
Another very popular portion in Daniel ascribed to Alexander and his generals is in chapter 11. This is future prophecy about how things will shape up in the region. Most see this as the "silent" years after Malachi before the gospels, which werent silent, but were absent Inspired scripture. I know there is some conjecture in here as it seems everything isnt or wasnt fulfilled to the "T" - however with much of fitting into the prophecy it is mostly held that this was the fulfillment, BUT when you get to verse 40 it reads at the time of the end. So was this fulfilled with Alexander or was it a foreshadow/type of things to come at the end... I agree. It was both past and will be played out in the future. |
|
