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Post by disciple4life on Oct 14, 2021 17:57:02 GMT -6
From the shoutbox Im not sure I fully understand what DOTL/TIME vs Lord means. In the interest of the comment I posted it here for others to see in case you miss the shoutbox. Wonder if Rusty means the Trib cant begin until the apostacy comes first? Or the rapture comes first which is not what the text says or alludes to. Hey mike , Thanks for posting the comments from the shout box. I will say that I've seen and heard this line of thought that the "Day of the Lord" refers to the Tribulation. I'm not making that case - but Multiple scholars have done extensive studies on this- the most notable one being Jewish expert and author Avi Ben Mordecai in Signs in the Heavens- A Jewish Messianic perspective of the Last days & Coming Millennium, and others, and that there is strong scriptural support for this, but most interesting is that it's perfectly consistent with many passages that show the 7000 year history or timeline of humanity, and how the millennium is explicitly a picture of the Sabbath or 7th day Sabbath, --- but I am more inclined to the point that the Day of the Lord is the 2nd coming. Another Jewish scholar and author has done extensive research - and takes the view that it refers to both the Tribulation and the 2nd coming - but it depends on the context - but never the rapture - The Jewish Holidays, Foundation of Christianity, Keys to ProphecyI agree - The phrase "DOTL/TIME vs Lord" is very nebulous - I've never seen or heard it - and I've been in about a dozen or more denominations. While we might not agree on the timing of the rapture - you are correct regarding the whole meaning of apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4. It is true that the word can be translated as departure, but the context is very clear that in this context Paul says that one of the sure signs of the end times is a large scale departure from the faith. The examples of false teachers & major false doctrines are too many to count - but especially huge right now - Western materialism, prosperity gospel, replacement theology, and health&wealth gospel, and the notion that Christians who oppose LGBT agenda are haters and intolerant, and the thousands who are led astray by the likes of Joel Olsteen and Brenda Weltner, Binny Hinn and Creflo Dollar etc. It's also equally true that the Hebrew word for day is "Yom" and this can be used in the sense of era or epoch as in the day of Noah, but people often use this as a polemic to "support" the notion of evolution in Genesis 1, but the context and rules of grammer exclude it. The text explicitly says the evening and the morning were the first day, and when this word is preceded by the ordinal description - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc era, Yom only means a literal day. The point being that just because a word can be translated or used to mean 3 different words - we have to look at the literary context, historical, cultural and grammatical context. If at first the passage seems to make literal sense, -seek no other sense or it will be nonsense. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 14, 2021 18:56:47 GMT -6
2 Thessalonians has 2 parts. I know we have all read this many times, but I will post regardless. Christ coming is ** linked with our gathering to him, ** what I'd say is the resurrection of the dead. Disciple4life here - **Paul mentions two things but doesn't link them - he doesn't equate them. "what I'd say is the resurrection of the dead" **But there is nothing in this entire section - Verses 1-12 that even mentions the resurrection. Also, it has been mentioned by others and myself that Paul is not saying or even suggesting that these things are the same.
For clarity - Do you see the rapture and the Day of the Lord as distinctly different?
The gathering together here does not say the rapture. At the rapture - the saints are gathered with Christ in the air. At the second coming, the saints are gathered on the earth - as explicitly stated by Zechariah. The saints coming with Christ are gathered with the Tribulation saints when Christ touches his feet on the Mt of Olives. This passage explicitly mentions the Day of the Lord - which is totally separate from the rapture.
The term Day of the Lord appears in 19 passages in the Old Testament, and it never once is described as Joyful, or glorious or "our Blessed hope" or even positive.
In fact, it was widely used and understood by 10 prophets and had an established meaning over a span of 600 years from the 10th century BC to the 4th Century BC - more than 400 years before Christ was born. The terms include 45 words -- all negative and terrible and include "Terrible, vengeance, cruel, darkness, gloom, dreadful, destruction, bloody, war, punishment, woe, wrath, fury, and most importantly - the descriptions are not only starkly different from the rapture- but are mutually exclusive from it.
The rapture is glorious- and we are told to wait for it- to look for it - and it's our blesssed hope.
Hosea says that the Day of the Lord is like being chased by a lion, confronted by a bear, and when you get home, you get bitten by a snake, and
he pronounces "Woe to those who desire it". It's also described in Zechariah as the day the houses are plundered and women are raped. They were told or heard that the DotL was near, at hand or present because they were most likely going through persecution. Verse 3 tells us Christ coming with our gathering to him (resurrection/rapture) will happen, but not till we see signs. [resurrection? Rapture] in this passage? [eisegesis - reading something into text that is not there]The passage says "Day of the Lord." Nothing here about harpazo, being caught up into the sky, or the resurrection which we see in the other rapture passages. 1. a apostasia (departure from faith/God's truth/God's commandments/Christ teachings) 2. and the Antichrist must be revealed They are 2 prerequisites to our gathering to Him. Verse 8 links the coming, the same coming with our gathering together to him (resurrection/rapture)( and same context) with Christ destroying Antichrist when he is revealed; which demonstrates that we are there for that. What people keep forgetting is the DotL is darkness to those that dwell in darkness. The DotL will not overtake those that belong to Christ. It will not be darkness to us because we have the light of the Lord. We do not need to be removed from it. God protects us in it because we are children of the light. Do not mistake the DotL as being 1 singular event of destruction for mankind. Because we are of the day, the DotL will not hurt us when it comes and we are in it. "Because we are of the day, the DotL will not hurt us when it comes and we are in it." But again, with respect, this is eisegesis - could you please cite any passage that says Christians, followers of Christ will be in the "Day of the Lord". ? ?
I acknowledged that not everyone believes that the rapture happens pre-trib, - and I've also acknowledged that there is not a clear proof text that says we will be raptured before - nor is there any clear proof text that says we will be here. There are many passages that give examples of saints being warned in advance and being taken out of tribulation before it happens. Noah, Lot, and Joseph are 3 of the most well-known. Conversely - the example of 3 guys who went through the fiery furnace were Jews - The 3 Hebrew children  - Shadrach, Meshach and Adbednego. Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jacob is Israel. |
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Post by venge on Oct 15, 2021 7:16:43 GMT -6
mike , First, I'd like to remind our readers that I have previously stated to D4L that I do not want to argue with him or talk to him and would prefer he doesnt even speak to me. Secondly, I would ask people to carefully read posts before responding. Example: In the comment above, I said the bolded/underlined. It is my opinion and I stated it as such. But D4L invalidates my opinion with his comment Thereby telling me I am wrong because he doesnt see Paul saying that or even suggesting it. You just broke rule #3, I wonder where are the mods on that? board.unsealed.org/thread/2/board-rulesThirdly, the statement he made: That Is not supported by MANY MANY commentators. Let me post the scripture below. Ellicott says, This is also found in 2 Tim 4:1 when Paul tells us that the living and dead are judged at his coming and kingdom before our change. Ellicott agrees it is the resurrection/rapture motif Benson says, Benson agrees it refers to his coming in the clouds to gather us. Matthew henry says, Who is Matthew henry referring to when he says this is the faith and hope of ALL Christians? The only one I know is the resurrection and rapture to be with Christ eternally. Barnes says, Jamieson-Fausett-Brown says, He links the coming of Christ and meeting him in the air with our gathering together. He concludes by saying: Gill says, I dont need to post more. ALL of them agree with my opinion on this verse. The gathering together is the resurrection and/or rapture of saints. But how dare you say: According to all of them and me, it is not eisegesis and I am not sure why you feel the need to define it for me. It is insulting. Or again when you said a second time, There is no respect given when you insinuate others to reading into the text and gathering something that isnt there when many of Christ body see the same thing and have tested to that. But since you continue to push and try to invalidate me, here is what Meyer says, or Cambridge, Lastly, I fond it comical that you would like to point out what you think is a flaw in my logic, though I have shown all these same biblehub commentators believe the same thing, but you didnt with mike . Now This s nothing against Mike. I love him like a brother. We have formed a bond, we have grown closer. Not because of our views per se, but because we have had many times to just talk about many things and to understand each other. Yet Mike said previously: And you never once pointed that out till I mentioned it. I hope this isnt finger pointing at me specifically.
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Post by mike on Oct 15, 2021 8:13:06 GMT -6
From the shoutbox Im not sure I fully understand what DOTL/TIME vs Lord means. In the interest of the comment I posted it here for others to see in case you miss the shoutbox. Wonder if Rusty means the Trib cant begin until the apostacy comes first? Or the rapture comes first which is not what the text says or alludes to. response from the shoutbox Thanks Rusty - strong 5604 is birth pangs - it is difficult to get a concise sense of what we try to communicate in writing, and for me even less in the limited shoutbox. So I cant say for sure that I follow you completely. Jesus was describing the events in Matt 24:8 & Mark 13:8 as birth pangs. He said: In context the disciples asked what to look for when He was to return. His answer was as shown above, and finished with the caveat of "these are just labor pains, not the actual labor event". I think we see and have seen these pains over the last 2000 years, and when we look back at history we can say the pains are increasing in intensity and severity. What I see here is that Paul is restating what Christ said previously. He is telling them " you dont need me to tell you about this, you already know how this is going to happen" with the caveat of peace & safety added but I also see that Jesus said something similar when He added "as in the days of Noah..." all was as it was then sudden destruction from the flood (and also in Sodom). So I think the difference in what we are saying is that I am attributing the Day of the Lord to the end, while you are stating the DoTL is the entirety of 7 years. I see how you get to that place but also think that other aspects are missed. I respect the difference when it doesnt change what the word says like some do with saying apostacy means rapture. It doesnt and we shouldnt be changing the word to fit our narrative no matter what. Take that out of the pre-trib point of view  |
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Post by mike on Oct 15, 2021 8:25:18 GMT -6
disciple4life Thanks for this bro. I know we see the timing of things a little differently at the moment. I was thinking this through more last evening and came to the conclusion that all the views we think are right are going to be incorrect. Much of what we think will not come to pass as we think it should. We wont be in darkness but none of us have it figured out. We need to remain humble before the King in our view of what He should do and how he should be returning. I arrived at this last evening because of this: They missed Him and He was right in front of them! They even proclaimed He was the glorious King in Matt 21, yet still didnt receive Him. I do not want to be in a position like that. nor do I want to see you or anyone else here who name Him like that either. Each day my heart aches over the wickedness that I see around us daily and what hurts even more is that I was once an object of wrath as I participated along with them being an enemy of God. What a fool! But now He has most mercifully and graciously opened my eyes, & your eyes (not just you specifically D4L). Lets keep looking together, keeping watch together, encouraging each other as we see the DAY approaching. I need the encouragement for one and am blessed to discuss our Lord with each other. Adding to your list above D4L is Creation...The lies that are purported to our children in schools is an abomination! Only an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God could create everything we see and experience, yet those who hate Him are blind to the truth before their eyes. Lord have mercy!
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Post by mike on Oct 15, 2021 9:00:02 GMT -6
disciple4lifeAsking about this statement: I see that there are two clear proof texts right off the top of my head. 1 we've already gone over a bit, 2Thes 2:3 and the other is Matt 24. I see that we often confuse wrath with tribulation. In Matt 24 the word given is thilipsis=tribulation. We are not saved from tribulation, we go through it. However we are saved from His wrath=orge. In all of the examples provided in the quote did they not go through great tribulation(s). In fact one could argue that Noah +7 went through the wrath of God, but were spared through it, not the subject of it. The 8 weren't raptured from it. Lot and his daughters weren't raptured, they had to run away. Shad, Mesh, Abed went into the fiery furnace...was that the kings wrath or tribulation? I dont know. does it matter? The examples show me that we too will go through some really tough things, but that we should trust in the Lord through them all, including martyrdom. Also FWIW - the Hebrew children weren't just genetically Hebrews, they clearly had faith in the Living God, unlike many of their genetic brothers who were the subjects of punishment as well. Why were they all collectively being punished? Unbelief! Their actions clearly demonstrated they were not believing in the God of their fathers, resulting all the heresies they committed hence Divine punishment. The time of Jacobs trouble will be similar (I believe). The unbelieving "church", and the unbelieving genetic Jews will also go through Gods divine punishment
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Post by boraddict on Oct 15, 2021 11:24:06 GMT -6
disciple4life Asking about this statement: I see that there are two clear proof texts right off the top of my head. 1 we've already gone over a bit, 2Thes 2:3 and the other is Matt 24. I see that we often confuse wrath with tribulation. In Matt 24 the word given is thilipsis=tribulation. We are not saved from tribulation, we go through it. However we are saved from His wrath=orge. In all of the examples provided in the quote did they not go through great tribulation(s). In fact one could argue that Noah +7 went through the wrath of God, but were spared through it, not the subject of it. The 8 weren't raptured from it. Lot and his daughters weren't raptured, they had to run away. Shad, Mesh, Abed went into the fiery furnace...was that the kings wrath or tribulation? I dont know. does it matter? The examples show me that we too will go through some really tough things, but that we should trust in the Lord through them all, including martyrdom. Also FWIW - the Hebrew children weren't just genetically Hebrews, they clearly had faith in the Living God, unlike many of their genetic brothers who were the subjects of punishment as well. Why were they all collectively being punished? Unbelief! Their actions clearly demonstrated they were not believing in the God of their fathers, resulting all the heresies they committed hence Divine punishment. The time of Jacobs trouble will be similar (I believe). The unbelieving "church", and the unbelieving genetic Jews will also go through Gods divine punishment Mike, I think you have it right. At the beginning someone is gathered to stand with the Savior and this appears to be his army (my words) as noted in Rev. 14:1. This group is also referred as the cloud in Rev. 14:14 that engages in the harvest. So it seems that some group is gathered first to then gather the saints in the harvest. And this first group is gathered near the beginning of the tribulation as noted in Isa. 66:8. This verse is not saying that all her children were brought forth, so I would say that some were. Recap: since the sealed group is on the earth during the first woe (Rev. 9:4), but they were taken prior to the first woe (Isa. 66:8, Rev. 14:1-4), then it appears that they were taken prior to the tribulation and then returned during the tribulation. The reason they were taken was to be sealed to the Savior and the reason they were returned was to gather the saints IMO. Who is worthy to be taken to the Savior? Only the sinless via the blood of Christ; the repentant. Then, as the tribulation gets going, the remainder of saints cleanse themselves via repentance to stand with the Savior in the marriage. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 15, 2021 12:33:07 GMT -6
boraddict, Yes, I do agree that part of the group is taken [first departure] or to use your exact words - "it appears that part/ they were taken prior to the tribulation, and then returned during the tribulation." I'm not saying there are two separate raptures. But it's interesting - but I've multiple teachers and scholars talk about how the parable of the wedding/rapture/10 bridesmaids in Matthew 24 says that the foolish were left/shut out, and the 5 wise bridesmaids knew and went in/were taken into the wedding feast.
There's some very interesting thoughts on this. One is that the 5 who were watching - are the ones who are really sold out and committed - the ones who are watchmen now - who see the converging signs all around us, and who are warning others. The 5 foolish/ are the ones who are religious/ Christian in Name Only, and it is these who are Culturally Christians, who said the prayer at Christian conference in Jr High, or VBS, but who make up the collective sleeping/apathetic church today, and they will be left behind, -because they were not watching -- LIke the dead/sleeping church in Revelation, to whom Christ said - if you don't repent - then as a punishment/ the consequence - I will come on YOU - like a thief in the night - which was a well-documented idiom that goes back before Christ, and was the captain of the Temple Guard. Then these who are like the seed on rocky soil - it grew up, but didn't have deep soil, would be here to be "Tested" and in a way - get a second chance, and the real test is if/ whether they take the mark. It is these who would then also join the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, who could explain that their "Crazy Aunt Clara" and the crazy Pastor Mark was really right about the end-times.
You get the picture. I'm not saying that IS the case 100%, but I think there is some merit to this idea. There are also countless examples of God's people being put to the test - throughout the old and new Testament - and some who were given second chances and some who passed the test and some who failed - Lot's wife, Peter, Judas, Simon the sorcercer, the rich young ruler, Ananias and Saphira, and scores who were tried and tested and came out as gold- Joseph, Paul, Peter, Samson, Moses, David, Rahab.
There are also a lot of different spins or variations of who or what is the true church, and that essentially, some are given the ultimate second chance - they would be here for the tribulation, but would be witnesses but they would ultimately be martyred along with those millions of Jews who come to know Christ in the tribulation. Interesting thought. Hmmmmm.
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Post by tennessean on Oct 15, 2021 20:05:46 GMT -6
water.cephas-news.com/rapture_apostasia_vs_departure.htmlDr. Ice notes apostasia appears just twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thess. 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21, where, speaking of Paul, it is said "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (aspostasia) Moses." The core meaning of the word in that verse is "defection" or "departure." The Lidell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as a defection or revolt, then secondly as departure or disappearance. When considering the context of the surrounding passages of 2 Thess. 2:3-8, we can see the word apostasia truly means departure or disappearance. More evidence is given by Jerome's Latin Vulgate from around the time of 400 A.D. which renders apostasia as "discessio," meaning departure. Why was the King James Version the first to change the established translation of "departure?" There is no reason, other than reformation scholars of the time were attempting to transliterate (applying a certain meaning), which unfortunately continued in all following English translations. Dr. Allan A. MacRae, Ph.D., a noted Greek scholar and translator, and president of theology schools, speaks of the striking parallel between verse 3 of 2 Thess 2, and verses 7-8. Verse 3 mentions the departure of the Church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of lawlessness. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: "And then shall that lawless one be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of "departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as "falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the "man of sin." Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest, LL. D., (Doctor of Laws), a noted Greek scholar, New Testament translator, Greek word-study author and professor, adds further contextual support for taking apostasia as a physical departure. He notes apostasia of which Paul is speaking (verse 3), precedes the revelation of antichrist in his true identity, and that which holds him back (verse 6) also precedes his revelation. The apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (verse 3) is vitally connected with verse 7, He who holds back the same event. Dr. Wuest is driven to the inescapable conclusion that the apostasia in verse 3 refers to the removal of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord (Second Coming), and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period. The English word departure certainly fits the conext (or coherency) of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8. Most post-tribulation theologians refuse to address the entire context as it is given, and thus insist the lexical evidence does not suggest a physical departure. But that is exactly what the lexical evidence does suggest. Dismissing the obvious coherence in those passages would be simple ignorance or a stubborn refusal to consider the Scriptural evidence. Remember, if we take a word out of context and apply a dissimilar meaning, we have then created a new pre-text. Likely that happened in the translation in the King James and later versions.
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Post by venge on Oct 16, 2021 7:46:00 GMT -6
tennessean , Obviously, some of us will disagree with that notion, and that is ok. We are hear to talk about questions that loom about. In regards to what the departure is, let me copy and paste this: If Christians were to apostasia, what do I think it would look like? Let me use the same verbage from above assuming some were trying to cause us to depart. "apostatize from Moses Christ"; that is, the law of Moses Gospel; that he taught the Gentiles Christians not to regard the rituals of the law of Moses sayings of Christ (love, peace, mercy, forgiveness, repentance) gave them no uneasiness; but that he should teach the Jews others that were scattered among the Gentiles, and as many of them that believed in Christ, to disregard and drop the observance of them, who had been always brought up in them, this they could not bear; and that the apostle so taught, they had credible information: particularly, We have a departure from Christ sayings today. Those that profess a love for Christ and deny the power. Those that confess they know God and yet have no mercy/love in them. Those that teach things contrary to God's word. The context of apostasia in Acts 21:21 only fits to a departure/defection and holding onto something that is no longer valid (like holding onto our flesh when we should be striving for the spirit). The Jews wanted to hold onto circumcision of the flesh. They wanted to still do those things that didn't please God; animal sacrifices, festivals, and these rituals that God said he wants them to do justice and love and righteousness. They cleaved unto those things that were of the old wine even when knowing the new wine. We must also cleave unto Christ and not the old man. You don't need to agree with me, but I am not alone in this thought. Today we have believers who still practice the old laws in some regard. Not different from those Jews under grace that wanted to continue in it that Paul spoke against. Is that not crucifying Christ a new? a def:
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Post by tennessean on Oct 17, 2021 13:10:45 GMT -6
As long as the church remains on the earth the man of sin or the antichrist will not be able to come to power, because of the he that withholds him in 2 Thessalonians 2.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
There is only one He that is powerful enough to keep the man of sin from coming to power and that is the Holy Spirit and where does the Holy Spirit reside and whom does he seal for the day of redemption but in the believer
Ephesians 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
In other words,unless there is a departure of the church from the earth, even one Christian in which the Holy Spirit resides, the antichrist will never be able to come to power.
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Post by mike on Oct 18, 2021 7:13:34 GMT -6
As long as the church remains on the earth the man of sin or the antichrist will not be able to come to power, because of the he that withholds him in 2 Thessalonians 2. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, There is only one He that is powerful enough to keep the man of sin from coming to power and that is the Holy Spirit and where does the Holy Spirit reside and whom does he seal for the day of redemption but in the believer Ephesians 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. In other words,unless there is a departure of the church from the earth, even one Christian in which the Holy Spirit resides, the antichrist will never be able to come to power. tennessean - this is the popular view and has its validity, but it is not the sole view nor is it 100% the interpretation. While the Holy Spirit is within us and has sealed us, why is it that the view you present here states that the church has to be removed and with the church the restrainer is removed. As you may be aware there are several issues with this viewpoint. For example the Holy Spirit is everywhere (Psalm 139:8), even when or if the church is not. The rapture of the church is not exclusive to removing of the Holy Spirit. Further to that point, there are others who apply Michael as the restrainer. While many disagree with that it also has its validation and can be a possibility. Please consider the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, however He simply stops restraining. He changes how He functions, changes His ministry, as in the same manner as He did almost 2000 years ago. When the disciples were in Jerusalem waiting for the Holy Spirit to arrive, He came with gifts for men to certify and create a 'concrete' basis for the eyewitnesses who saw Christ raise that through the ministry of the Holy Spirit through those people, others would believe. But over the last 2000 years we havent seen this type of movement from the Holy Spirit, not documented like we see in the Word. There have been small (I'll call them drizzles of oil) movements but none such as we see in Acts nor those in Revelation. Point being here that the Holy Spirit does not always and has not always acted in the same manner. To conclude that the restrainer has to remove the church in order for the man of sin to be revealed is reading between the lines and adding something the scriptures do not state explicitly. |
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Post by sog on Oct 18, 2021 10:25:43 GMT -6
Possible analogy of the restrainer. Somewhat of a bad one. I'm sure someone can come up with a better one, but it paints a picture.
Consider a bouncer at a high end bar that guards entry against every riff raff that wants to pass. The bouncer is the sole restrainer, whether the Holy Spirit being itself or Michael doesn't matter. The bar is earth with all it's evil desires. Sin still exists in the bar, because, well, man. One day the owner of the bar tells the bouncer to let everyone in. The bouncer unhooks the rope and simply steps aside. The worst of society (fallen angels) rushes in and destroys the bar. That's it, pretty simple.
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Post by mike on Oct 18, 2021 11:03:37 GMT -6
Trying this again tennessean I am understanding that the way this is being presented that Jesus can't come to gather His own, both dead and alive until the apostacy/catching away happens first. In the most recent post you made an assertion and doubled down on this by adding the restrainer removes the church. So in reading what you are saying I am understanding that: Hey Thessalonians there's some confusion about our resurrection to eternal life with the Lord and His coming. Dont be troubled as if that day already happened. Dont let anyone deceive you into thinking it already happened and you missed it. That day will not happen unless the apostacy rapture comes first. Can someone who subscribes to the translation of this passage explain to me how the rapture has to happen before the rapture? and that day cant happen until the restrainer is taken out of the way. Which 'day' would we be considering here? the day of the rapture or the day of the Lord? Both of which I see as the same, and perhaps this is another item where disparity comes into play. |
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 18, 2021 12:08:02 GMT -6
Hey mike, others. As you know, I'm about 85% in the pre-trib camp. Not totally closed to other scenarios. So we can say i hold this position, but as i think you're pointing out, it makes no sense to say the rapture won't happen until the rapture happens. Im well aware of the view that this word can be translated departure, but i think it's poor Hermeneutics. The context is clearly people departing fromntrue faith in the last days. The passage does explicitly say the Day of the Lord, and when we take the plain sense reading of the text to be apostasy[ departing from the faith] and the Day of the Lord to be the 2nd coming, then it makes sense. The 2nd coming won't happen until the bouncer stops keeping out the rif-raff, nephilim and the AC is revealed, and commits the Abomination of Desolation. I was under the impression that you do see the rapture and 2nd coming [regardless of the exact timing] as distinctly different, but that the rapture is after the midpoint/ before the full wrath is poured out. I think this is the hinge pin. I dont expect everyone to adopt my view, but i do think it's critical for any meaningful discussion to state one's view on this case. If someone sees the "Day of the Lord" being the rapture [one and the same] even though the terms are mutually exclusive and Day of the Lord is never once described in the Tanakh/ Old Testament as positive- then this would be 1 slam-dunk proof verse for mid-trib or pre-wrath. Hope that makes sense. |
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- Shadrach, Meshach and Adbednego. Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jacob is Israel. 
