Foundations in understanding The Book of Revelation

rondonmonson ,

Now please look at this with me. The twelve tribes listed in Rev. 7:4-8 are from the natural born sons of old man Israel with the exception of Manassas that John has used to replace Dan; and this is proved because Joseph and more importantly Levi are included in the list. Of which by the way Joseph and Levi were never included as tribes when Moses took Israel out of Egypt; with the exception of Joseph having been named and then shown as both Ephraim and Manassas. For example Num. 1:10 that shows Joseph and then clarifies that two tribes are counted for Joseph that are Ephraim and Manassas. Because, Levi is not included in the count (Num. 1:47). Therefore, if Levi is included as one of the twelve tribes then the list referenced is a list that is prior to the appointment of Levi as priests. Prior to Levi being taken out of the list of twelve tribes as shown in Numbers Chapter 1.

Therefore, I have proven that the list that is referenced in Rev. 7 is clearly a pre-Numbers (pre-exodus) list. However, since Manassas it used to replace Dan then the list is also "post adoption" (Gen. 48:5).

That is, the list being used in Chapter 7 comes from a period of time where there were 13 tribes in Israel. The twelve natural born sons plus the two adopted sons replacing Joseph as one of the twelve.

I do not think that these thirteen tribes are Jews; because, there is only one tribe that is Judah. However, to prove my point then please consider Gen. 49 that is a prophecy about these tribes in the last days. Please notice that Levi is included (Gen. 49:5) as is Joseph (Gen. 49:22-26). In other words, this list in Chapter 49 is the same list that is in Rev. 7. It is a pre-exodus list. Meaning, that the Chapter 7 list is a pre-exodus list.

One important aspect of this list as pre-exodus is that it may be a type of the exodus in our time. That is, the message may be that the 144,000 are gathered prior to the rapture event.

I do realize that the belief that the 144,000 are Jews is common place; however, just because people believe this doctrine does not make it true. But what is true is that I have proved that the Chapter 7 list is pre-exodus; because, Levi is included in the list.

I am not saying that they are not Jews; but I am saying the list is pre-exodus.

Post Script: If Levi instead of Dan were replaced by Manassas then we would never be able to prove the list to be pre-exodus. We would naturally conclude that the reference to the twelve tribes would be post-exodus; because, Levi had been replaced. However, since Levi was not replaced then the list is pre-exodus, but why replace Dan. The mere fact that anyone is replaced suggests that Joseph is given his double portion. How about, since Levi is not replaced then that tribe is no longer the priest tribe for Israel but Dan on the other hand is taken out to be as stated in Gen. 49:16-18.

This seems reasonable; that the list has more to do with the transfer of the priest responsibility from Levi to Dan and less to do with being pre-exodus. Look at the language of Gen: 49:16-18 that tells us that Dan is a judge over the people. Also the reference that links to the rider of the horse in Rev. 6:1-8. Also the statement "I have waited for thy salvation O Lord. Are we to conclude that the transfer of Manassas from representing Levi to Manassas representing Dan moves the role of Israel from being a priestly nation to a nation of judgment? 

Allow me to rephrase the point. In Rev. 7 God is only telling us that he is speaking of ALL Israel (whom we call Jews, God doesn't, he called them 144,000 AND the Woman in Rev. 12) who repent. Thus, it doesn't matter if we call them THE WOMAN (Israel) or THE 144,000 (Israel) as God did, or "Jews who Repent" or the Remnant of Israel who repent, or the 7000 that God has saved unto Himself, or if we simply called them Middle East Dwellers. The point is the name makes no difference, God says 1/3 of Israel will repent, and 2/3 will refuse to repent, so we know that 3-5 million Jews repent and flee unto the Petra/Bozrah region where God protects them. The name they are called is not relevant, the Woman, the 144,000, the 1/3 who repent, Israel, the Jews who repent (which is really all the tribes, there were never any lost tribes), etc. etc. Its a Prophecy and everyone who REPENTS are already known to God, thus who they are called, IMHO, is just a name, God calling them by different names proves it really doesn't mater. I mean if we just made up a name, the same 3-5 million are going to repent. If we called them Jacobites, its still the same ones who repent and whom God protects. 

There were never any lost Tribes, God stated he saved 7000 (7 means completeness also so add three zeros and again you get ALL Israel), unto Himself, so when the 10 tribes were toted off, each tribe had seed living in Jerusalem/Judah, and thus they had kids, the seed passed on to other generations, but those seed became INTERMINGLED with the Judean customs, and over time they all become known by the Gentiles as simply Jews, especially after returning from their 2000 some odd year Diaspora. 



The 12 tribes are all Israel, if we call the Jews, its still ALL Israel. 

For starters, Rev. 7:9-16 are not the 144,000, that is the Raptured Church in Heaven who came out of the 2000 year Church Age tribulation. I can prove NO ONE goes to heaven from the 70th week tribulation, the ones who do not take the Mark of the Beast and die, are ALL JUDGED after Jesus' return in Rev. 20:4 ON EARTH, and they live and reign with Jesus on earth for 1000 years. The 5th Seal says the Martyrs will not get vengeance until ALL of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they were by this Beast. Thus, scriptures prove 100 percent, beyond any doubt, those seen in Rev, 7:9-17 can not have come out of the 70th week tribulation, those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 come out of the Church Age tribulation  where millions of our brothers died and were martyred for Christs name. Jesus told us in the Gospel of John that all time on this evil earth for the Church is continual tribulations. The 2000 some odd year Church Age, the 70th week 7 year period and the 3.5 year Greatest Ever troubles.

We have to get these things correct or we go down cul-de-sacs. 

As with the BABEL TOWERS not being real towers built unto the Heavens, the towers actually stood for "KNOWLEDGE" and this was why God confused the languages, thus stifling the race to knowledge. Now that we have the computers and people traveling to and fro, knowledge has of course increased exponentially. The tower to the heaven jargon is just prose which stands in for knowledge. Likewise, Jesus standing on Mt Zion with 144,000 is prose, just as placing the Wicked tares in a Wine-press is PROSE which means Jesus will speak their death. The 144,000 are the 3-5 million Israelites (I guess I can't simply call them Jews anymore because people can't see the word Jews has become synonymous with Israel) who are in the wilderness/mountains of the Petra/Bozrah area. So, the Israelites in the Petra/Bozrah area are not brought with Jesus unto Mt. Zion, at least not IMHO, but Rev. 14 is SPECIFICALLY  the Harvest Chapter, thus we need to be shown the Three Harvests here, that's what this chapter is. Thus we have to be shown the Wheat and the Tares (Israel and the Wicked Tares), Jesus gathers one unto his barn, and bundles the other into the grave to be burned at a later date. Now go read the Wheat and Tare parable, its the same thing in essence, a Harvest. Then we see a FLASHBACK in verse 14 to the Pre Trib Rapture where Jesus from upon a cloud "HARVESTS the Church" unto himself so he can marry the Bride in Heaven during the 70th week. So, yes, this is why we see the 144,000 on Mt. Zion with Jesus, but Jesus' Second Coming is signified via the Mt. Zion portrait, the 144,000 represents The Wheat, those thrown into the Wine-press represent the Wicked Tares and those Harvested by Jesus in verse 14 represent the Rapture of the Church Pre Trib. So, all of these portraits have a purpose. Jesus is going to speak victory, but these Israelites living in the Petra/Bozrah area, who have no Glorious bodies as yet, will not be flying through the air with Jesus. God SEALING only means God PROTECTING. The Angels are all SEALED. We as Christians are SEALED unto God in our spirits. God Sealing the 144,000 is God protecting the Woman as she flees to the Wilderness.

The Rev. chapter 6 Seals DO NOTHING, thus as you see the Seals opened, Jesus is in Heaven JUST BEFORE the coming Day of the Lord (1260 or Middle of the week Asteroid impact) and he's opening the Seals telling us what all will START on the Day of the Lord 1260 event, when this Asteroid strikes. Thus this is JUST BEFORE the 1260, and the Jews Flee Judea at the 1290 which is 30 days BEFORE the 1260 event. So, the timing is basically the same. That's how I put it together to start with. We see in Zechariah 13:8-9 that Israel REPENTS (1/3 do) and the very next verse (Zech. 14:1) says the Day of the Lord has come. So, that matches. Malachi 4:5-6 which says that Elijah will be sent back to turn Israel back unto God BEFORE the DOTL. 

The 6th Seal is opened and Jesus says Gods Wrath is about to hit, and speaks of what it brings to pass when His Wrath finally falls. We see those exact things come to pas in Rev. 8 with the Asteroid. but in between, in chapter 7, what do we see? We see I44,000 Israelites, God says he needs to SEAL THEM (Protect them) and thus God says this:  WATCH THIS NOW:

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


So, AFTER THESE THINGS means after Jesus opens the 6 Seals, BUT BEFORE he opens the 7th Seal which BRINGS the Wrath of God. So, the Angels HOLDING the four winds represents holding back God's Wrath that it hurt not the earth, sea nor trees (what do the Trumpet Judgments hurt? The Earth, Sea and Trees) until these Israelites are sealed in the head, which means until the are PROTECTED. Well, where does God protect Israel at? The Petra/Bozrah area. How long does God protect Israel/Woman? 1260 days. Well, when does the Trumpet judgments start? at the 1260, so these 144.000 or JUST ALL Israel or the Woman which is fleeing Judea like Jesus told them to do, and he also told them to flee unto the Mountains. 

Everything after this verse is prose, it simply means Israel, and the Church had to survive in Roman occupation. Rome had just wiped out Jerusalem/Israel, they didn't want people writing/boasting Israel was going to do this, this and this, so God gave Israel CODE NAMES, the Woman, the 144,000 etc. etc. God called Rome and the Judgment of the World, the Judgment of Babylon, BUT WHY? Because these Romans would see that and laugh, calling these Christians crazy people, but harmless, they probably looked at each other and said Babylon has been a dead city for decades or 100s of years, then laughed, but Christians knew Babylon stood for this evil world. 

This right here is the exact same thing.

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

7000 and 144,000 are numbers that multiply IMPORTANT NUMBERS. 10 means Completeness and so does 7 thus 7000 means ALL Israel, God has reserved a remnant who finally repent and THEY will be the COMPLETE Israel who reign with Christ in his 1000 year reign. 144,000 is likewise a representative of Israel. The number 12 = Fulness and the number 10 = Completeness thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000. There is a reason God/John/Paul used Code words, the Romans did not want to hear Rome was a Beast, Rome was going to be defeated, Israel was going to rule with Jesus etc. etc. Thus CODES were used. 

When we get to Rev. 8, the 7th Sal is opened and the Trumps which HURT the Earth, Sea and Trees are then allowed to come forth. I am telling you what it means, you don't have 35 years (IMHO) to study this stuff like I did. ((( Because the Rapture is COMING SOON. )))

God Bless getting sleepy, starting to nod off. 

1.) Yes, indeed, the 144,000 are a repentant Israel, and they do not repent until the 70th week, so they can not come out of the Church Age. Those Jews who were (are now) Messianic Jews before the Rapture (which is pre trib imho), will be Raptured with the rest of the Bride of Christ, of course. But not he 144,000/Woman/Israel who repent.

2.) No, it is Metaphorical, but only for the Israelites who Repent (I'm not using Jews anymore, its Israelites from now on, so I will not confuse those who are not understanding when I uses Jews I mean Israel) during the 70th week, just before the coming Day of the Lord (1260 event). Many Israelites LIVING TODAY will not Repent because we know 2/3 refuse to repent. And many may die before the 70th week gets here. (not too many, because its vey soon, IMHO).

3.) Yes, the Sealing of the 144,000 is God PROTECTING the Israelites who repented, then Fled Judea. Rev. 18:2 says Babylon (Whole Earth) has become a HABITATION of devils (Satan and his Angels are cast down in Rev. 12 when Michael stands up), see Dan. 12:1-2, Michael saves Israel/STANDS UP. Then in Rev. 18:4 we see God calling "His people" (think of the timing of these TWO VERSES) to come out of her (Babylon/World) that she receive not of Babylon's Plagues !! I see His People as being Israel, and Babylon being the World God is about to bombard with His PLAGUES, and right above this verse, we see the WHOLE EARTH (Babylon) is now a habitation of Devils. (Satan is cast down at the 1260 and chases the Woman for 1260 days). It all ties in together.

4.) No, not necessarily, verses 4-8 via all the 12 tribes is just PROSE, God could have just said the Woman again as in Rev. 12. Much of the book of Revelation is just CODE however, the Preacher who got me to understand how to understand the book of Revelation long ago, stated think of the book of Revelation as a GIANT CODE BOOK, and the Old Testament as the CODE MANUAL with all the codes written therein. In other words THE WOMAN with the Sun, Moon and 12 stars can be DECODED by looking at Genesis 37:9, Josephs dream where he saw his father (Sun) mother (moon) and 11 brothers (stars) paying obeisance unto him or kneeling down unto him. Thus Joseph being the 12th star, means the Sun, Moon and 12 stars = Israel. It is chock full of ENCODED UNDERSTANDINGS that only those familiar with the Old Testament can decode. Rev. 17 is a PAINTED PICTURE of Daniel 5, MENE MENE TEKEL. God Judges the Harlot king of Babylon and all her peoples. (LOL....Satan is he real king of tis world/Babylon now, JUDGMENT is coming, Satan will be in the pit soon). The Four Horses are found in Zechariah, God just repurposes them to tell us about the coming Anti-Christ in Rev. ch. 6. 


Most actually see the 144,000 as 144,000 PREACHING JEWS who evangelize, NO WHERE in the bible is this said as per them being preachers, that just got started making the rounds and it took on a life of its on and BECAME "QUASI FACT", even though its not. A very few may see this as I do, but I am correct on this, what made me see this was when I understood the Seals DO NOTHING, you see if God's Wrath has already started via the Seals, then its much harder to see these as the Fleeing Israelites, because God will protect them (OF COURSE) before His wrath falls. So, when I understood the Seals are NOT God's Wrath, but instead are Jesus Prophesying about the coming 42 months of God's Wrath via Seal #6 and about the Anti-Christ reign of terror over the same 42 months via Seals 1-5, then it hit me like a ton of bricks, "HEY, if the Wrath only starts with the First Trump, then this can be the Fleeing Israelites, whom God protects just BEFORE His coming Wrath" !!

1.) 2.) 3.) 4.) 

God doesn't and never would select a SELECT AMOUNT, thus God would have to predetermine who makes Heaven and who doesn't make heaven via His will. That's not God's nature. Secondly, Zechariah 13:8-9 says 1/3 of the Israelites will REPENT, thus there are 9 million Israelites living in Israel, and 15 million living worldwide, thus the 1/3 has to be 3-5 million Israelite Jews, so the 144, 000 being literal never added up to me.

The first verses of Rev. 14 represent the Second Coming End Time Harvest, so yes, that is after the Rev. 7:1 Aod/1290 Fleeing of the Israelites. Rev, 7:1-3 happens between the 1290 and 1260.  The 1290 is Israel FLEEIG Judea the 1260 is the Asteroid Strike in Rev. 8. 

As per Rev. 14:7 GOOD CATCH........Bravo, I will add that to my lexicon. I also saw ONE HOUR of Judgment there, as in Revelation 18:8 (Babylon is destroyed in ONE HOUR) and as in Rev. 17:12 where the 10 Kings (European Nations/Kingdoms) rule for ONE HOUR with the Beast (42 months). So, that's another ONE HOUR (42 months) Judgment reference I can add to me collection. 

That's exactly when I started seeing it, when I understood that the EARTH, TREES and SEAS were what was held back and then I flipped the page and was like, the TREES are burning, the Seas getting hit with an asteroid, the sea creatures dying, and of course the Earth is all the earth. 

TBH, I used to love to DIG IN DEEP with others on these things, but over the last few years, all because I finally understood my own thoughts were stopping me from learning, and so I just started asking God via His deep truths to SHOW ME, and thus God wants to show us all now, because these are the end times. We just have to put off everything and ask God in humbleness to show us, He wants to. The thing is, its like a 10,000 piece puzzle, guessing does no good, we will never get it. But once you WORK, WORK, WORK, and never move on until God gives you an answer in all things(whereas everyone else says, yea, that is kinda a contradiction, but its close enough for me).  But I found out, if we WAIT on the Lord, keep asking and seeking He will give us the Answer, ALWAYS. 

To show you what I am speaking about sister I want to give you a challenge (there is no WRONG ANSWER....Well, there is, but you not getting it in ONE DAY, or in ONE WEEK, doesn't mean God wasn't going to give it to you, but we would have forgotten the challenge by then (LOL).....so look at these two verses and tell me  in your best attempt why they are NOT CONTRADICTORY (Don't worry about getting it right or wrong)

Why are these TWO VERSES not contradicting each other ?  SEE BOLDED BELOW (God never contradicts Himself)

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, how can the Beast be SLAIN in Dan. 7:11 but CAST ALIVE into hell in Rev. 19:20? Its not a contradiction. This was MY POINT, I stopped moving on where things SEEMED to contradict until God showed me the answers, thus I WAITED UPON the Lord. God thus blesses me with answers because I wrestle for the answer so to speak. Like Jacob did. God desires for us to seek out His deep truths, not to just accept thigs we have heard. 

So let's look at the seals in Chapter 6, and then there is the aside of Chapter 7. Please notice in the aside that a reference is made about the saints that came out of "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). This seems to indicate that the great tribulation took place in the Chapter 6 seals.

Another point about the Chapter 7 aside, it concludes with the Chapter 22 reign of the Savior. I mean, it is like we are going down each Chapter 6 seal and then it is "oh, by the way, "after these things (Rev. 7:1)...." That is, after the things of the Chapter 6 seals, then I (John) saw the destruction of the earth withheld (Rev. 7:1-3). Until that is, until the sealing of the children of Israel takes place , and then he says like, oh by the way, these saints make it to the ending at Chapter 22 (Rev. 7:15-17).

John is not saying that Chapter 7 took place after the seals of Chapter 6, but he saw in the order of the vision, this order:
1) the 6 seals of Chapter 6
2) then he saw the sealing of the 144,000
3) then he saw the opening of the 7th seal

This means that the Chapter 7 aside fits into the seals of Chapter 6 after the great tribulation.

Since the saints were given white robes at the 5th seal, then it seems reasonable that the Chapter 7 aside can not take place before the 5th seal. I mean, the saints of Chapter 7 receive white robes (Rev. 7:13) at either the 5th seal but most likely 6th seal.

If this is correct then it blows the pre-rapture theory out of the water; because, it is after the great tribulation as stated in Rev. 7:14 that the saints of Chapter 7 are taken.

Then, after the saints are taken, the 7th seal is announced (v. 8:1) and the trumpets sound to the destruction of 1/3rd (Rev. 8:7-12) followed by further destruction in the 1st and 2nd woes to the destruction of a second 1/3rd (Rev. 9:18) for a total of 2/3 of the earths population.

Are we to conclude that the great tribulation is in Chapter 6 and then the destruction of the population occurs in the trumpets. This would mean the great tribulation is the era of the beasts destruction, followed by the saints being taken, and then the wrath of God wherein 1/3 and 1/3 are destroyed.

That is, the saints stay on the earth through the great tribulation until it is time for the wrath of God to begin.

So the order appears to be:

1) The Chapter 6 seals that are the great tribulation that the saints go through. This is the fall of Babylon etc. in Chapters 12, 13, 17, & 18
2) The Chapter 7 gathering wherein the saints are given white robes having come out of the great tribulation of Chapter 6. This is the Chapter 19 gathering of saints.
3) The 7th seal at Verse 8:1 wherein the saints await along with the Savior and this is the gathering at Mt. Zion at Rev. 14:1-5. They are waiting after they were sealed.
4) The destruction upon the earth that was postponed at Rev. 7:1-3 but now is in full force in Chapter 8 and 1/3rd of the earth's population die; the 4 trumpets.
5) The angel flies through heaven (v. 8:13 & 14:6-7). Babylon has previously fallen and many have taken the mark (vv. 14:8-13).
6) The 1st and 2nd woes of Chapter 9 wherein 1/3rd of the earths population die, trumpets 5 & 6. This is the 1st event of destruction of Chapter 14 (vv. 14:14-16) that is the harvest of saints.
7) The Chapter 10 aside followed by the temple and the two witnesses are killed. This is a 3.5 year period of time.
8) The 3rd woe that is listed in Chapter 11 and it is here that the winepress of Chapter 14 is applied (vv. 14:17-20) and the warfare of Chapter 19 takes place (vv. 19:11-20); after the two witnesses were killed by the beast (7).
9) Chapter 15 and the beast was previously defeated (8).
10) Chapter 16 wherein the wicked of the world make a final push against Christ and are defeated.

Sorry about the parenthetical application of the second half of the book. I would have preferred a purely chronological text but it does not work out. One interesting side note is that the astronomical event at 4 is followed by the harvest at 6. That is, the astronomical event of Chapter 8 sets the stage for the harvest in Chapter 9.

There are several scenarios but each one that I consider is defeated for one reason or another. The above order seems to be correct.

Exactly, most people don't think these things through, they just accept the seeming contradictions and move on. There are countless other issues where people create whole religious cult like followings off of misunderstood passages. Like John 5:43, Jesus never says that Israel will accept the Anti-Christ, he says the Pharisees who rejected him will accept Messiahs that come in their own name, whereas they rejected him that came in the Fathers name. We have some who insist the tribulation period will be shortened, because Jesus tells us that his and God's original plan SHORTENS the Anti-Christs natural rule to a PRE PLANNED 1260 days. These thins go on and on.

Zechariah 13 is about the Israelites/Jewish peoples repenting. THAT DAY, is referring to the day Israel acknowledges that Jesus is their Messianic Savior. We can see the real time repentance in Zechariah chapter 12. I have done a Zechariah 13 Exegesis so I can show what it means in detail, but first I need to show chapter 12's meaning.

Zechariah 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.

5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

So, how can God/Jesus fight for Israel on THAT DAY (which is always The Day of the Lord God's Wrath) and say that Israel will repent on THAT DAY, and then later in Zechariah 14:1-2 says the Anti-Christ will sack Jerusalem on THAT DAY? It's because THAT DAY is the Day of the Lord and THAT DAY (God's Wrath) lasts for 1260 days. It is true that Israel repents just before the Day of the Lord (1335) but it is THAT DAY which holds all the keys to the end times. God's Wrath is coming and Israel understands they are in the 70th week by this time, it becomes OBVIOUS, just like England and Europe knew Hitler was going to strike well before he actually did. Thus Israel repents and God then pours out His holy spirit on them, and he protects them for 1260 days in the Mountainous wilderness of Petra/Bozrah. But God will not fight for them fully until the 7th Vial. They repent JUST BEFORE the 1st Trump and flee to the Wilderness.

Now on to Zechariah 13, one of my favorite chapters, I will endeavor to explain it line by line.

Zechariah 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 


((( So, in the day Israel repents just before the DOTL, God opens the FOUNTAINS (Blood of Jesus) to Israel FOR SIN & UNCLLEANNESS. Only the Blood does this. )))


2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. 4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.


((( What is being prophesied here is that after Israel repents. the false idols and false prophets will be caused by God to leave the land of Israel, or admit they were not really Prophets of God in reality. If they continue to prophesy lies against God (Jesus) then the people will not stand for it any longer. We know 3-5 million Jews repent, thus they are not gong to listen to their lying Rabbis any longer lying about Jesus who they now understand is their Messiah. Many former Rabbis, realizing they were wrong about Jesus (obviously by that time) will say, I am no Prophet, I am a simple husband. )))


6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.


((( Mostly prose here, showing us it is Jesus whom they accept as their Messiah, before Jesus was even born, Zechariah gave us a clear portrait.)))


8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

((( So, 1/3 of the Jewish Israelites repent, and 2/3 refuse to REPENT, thus these who refuse to repent do not flee Judea with the 1/3, thus the Anti-Christ will kill them since his goal is to kill every Jew on planet earth, so now we see how verse 2, above, comes to pass, God will use the Anti-Christ to rid Israel of all of their false prophets who refuse to repent, all the pseudo intellectual types who refuse to repent, all the worldly Jewish peoples who chose this evil world over God. They will all be done away with, one way or another. If they take the Mark of the Beast, the 200 million Angelic Army via the 2nd Woe will slay 1/3 of all of them, etc. etc. etc. )))

Zechariah 14 shows the actual DAY OF THE LORD arriving, and thus Jerusalem getting Conquered AND Jesus Conquering the Anti-Christ 1260 days later.


Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


((( The Day of the Lord arrives, the 1260 Conquering by the Anti-Christ, he conquers Jerusalem, thus this IS NOT the end time battle because we know Jesus wins don't we? So, this is the Day of the Lord's very beginning, where Jerusalem gets sacked, but the residue will not be CUT OFF from the city, this word cut-off is used for death, Jesus was said to be CUT-OFF in Daniel 9:26, so what this is saying is that the RESIDUE (those God protects in the Petra/Bozrah area) will not be killed, and they will reign in Jerusalem with Jesus during the 1000 year reign, they will have offspring, and then die like normal human beings for 1000 years. God promised Abraham a CONTINUAL SEED. ))) 


3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

((( The rest of the chapter is about Jesus defeating the Anti-Christ and all his minions, 1260 days later, but still in what is considered The Day of the Lord, Gods 42-month period of Wrath. THEN, Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ and all his minions. He lands on the Mt. of Olives and destroys the Anti-Christ. )))

By the way, I agree Zechariah 13:6-7 is about Satan trying to kill off Jesus, and then trying to destroy Israel, but its mostly just prose because Zechariah 13 is about the END TIME 2000 some odd years later. We thus get a FLASHBACK that shows how Satan though he got the victory over Israel, but Jesus in the end will have he victory, because a good Shepard always takes care of his sheep. Amen.

Going back to the list of twelve tribes in Chapter 7, the following appears to be correct:

1) The tribe of Levi was excluded from the list of twelve tribes (Num. 1:47) but is now included in the list of twelve tribes (Rev. 7:7).
2) The tribe of Dan was included in the list of twelve tribes (Num. 1:12) but is now excluded from the list of twelve tribes (Rev. 7:4-8).
3) The tribe of Dan has been replaced by the tribe of Manassas (vv. 7:4-8).
4) The tribe Levi would have also been replaced by the tribe of Manassas (Num. 1:10).
5) Therefore, any reference to the tribe of Joseph, where the tribe of Manassas has been removed, is the tribe of Ephraim (Rev. 7:8).
6) Therefore, the tribe of Ephraim is in the Chapter 7 list of twelve tribes as Joseph.


Thank you rondonmonson , and I want to clarify our conversation to those who may be reading so that they can understand a little better. The biblical community has an ongoing debate about the application of the Church Age (the last 2,000 years), compared to the 70th week (the last 7 years). One is like a macro type of study while the other is like a micro type of study. One takes a large panoramic view of the timeline while the other takes a narrow view of the time line. Generally, these two positions are interchanged while reading scripture such that in one verse there may be a reference about something that took place or spans the last 2,000 years and in another verse there may reference to something that will take place in the last 7 years; the tribulation years. An example would be like Jesus opening the seals of the scroll 2,000 years ago or during the past 2,000 years, compared to Jesus opening the seals of the scroll during the seven years of tribulation. I think everyone uses both positions, church age and 70th week, in their work, and that is where rondon is coming from.

rondonmonson , said:

So the question revolves around the people in Rev. 7:9-17 being from the church age tribulation period vs. the 70th week tribulation period.

If they are from the church age, over the past 2,000 years, then they are not people here upon the earth at this time but are people that have died.
If they are from the 70th week then they are people that are alive today.

We agree that the fifth seal has the people who have died under the beasts rule and this was your item number 2. That is a great place to work from. Although, I do not know that the 42 month rule of the beast is over before or during the 5th seal. It may be the case that the 42 month rule extends all the way up to and including the 7th seal at Rev. 8:1.

Number 3 is that we agree the seals are not judgments. However, while you see the seals as prophecy I see the seals as actions of man that are so horrific that God brings forth judgment; the trumpets.

I guess that I do not completely understand your point number 1.

While scripture tell us that the dead rise, it does not say that the dead rise all at the same time. To me it is a process that spans the entire 1,000 year reign of Christ. Many at first but not all. How many? I do not know but it is an orderly process.

Chapter 7 is about the sealing of the 144,000 and that the destruction in Chapter 8 will not begin until the 144,000 are sealed. Since I believe the 144,000 is a literal number and that the chapter is about them as an army of God, then to me Chapter 7 is not a church age chapter.