TrumpetsTX
New Member
Author, 21st Century Revelation: World Wars, Iraq War & End Wars
Posts: 47
Favorite Verse: Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Post by TrumpetsTX on Sept 9, 2021 22:47:54 GMT -6
BalfacanTX: First God calls 2 plus 144,000 spirit filled Jewish witnesses to proclaim the Gospel (Revelation 7:3-4, 11:3).
boraddict: TrumpetsTX,
You said: First God calls 2 plus 144,000 spirit filled Jewish witnesses to proclaim the Gospel (Revelation 7:3-4, 11:3). Can you provide scripture proving that the 144,000 are Jewish, because Rev. 7:5 states that only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah? I do not understand why biblical scholars are so loose with definitions.
There is one people that are Hebrews that descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their nation is Israel, God's new name for Jacob and their religion is Judaism. Israeli ethnicity, nationality and religion are strongly interrelated. Since Scripture clearly lists 12 tribes excluding Dan, the 144,000 witnesses are Israeli or Hebrews or followers of the Jewish religion. We call Jewish follows of Jesus, Messianic Jews who are also Christians. They are not specific to a tribe but in what they believe. Only 12,000 are from the actual tribe of Judah. boraddict: Also, you said:
In the Millennium, Jerusalem is the world’s capital with a fourth temple as animal sacrifices and burnt offerings continue to remind people of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 56:7-8).
There are four temples in Jerusalem, Old Earth. 1. Solomon (1 Kings 8:12-13) 2. Post Babylon/Herod’s Temple (Ezra 6:12, 15) 3. Tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Thessalonians 2:3-4, Matthew 24:15-16) 4. Millennium (Zechariah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 40-43) The Tribulation temple will be quickly replaced by Jesus Christ during the Millennium. There is no temple in the New Earth because Jesus tabernacles with us in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22). God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God (Revelation 21:2-3). Robert Cook TrumpetsTX21stcenturyrevelation.com
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Post by boraddict on Sept 10, 2021 3:27:35 GMT -6
BalfacanTX: First God calls 2 plus 144,000 spirit filled Jewish witnesses to proclaim the Gospel (Revelation 7:3-4, 11:3).
boraddict: TrumpetsTX,
You said: First God calls 2 plus 144,000 spirit filled Jewish witnesses to proclaim the Gospel (Revelation 7:3-4, 11:3). Can you provide scripture proving that the 144,000 are Jewish, because Rev. 7:5 states that only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah? I do not understand why biblical scholars are so loose with definitions.
There is one people that are Hebrews that descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Their nation is Israel, God's new name for Jacob and their religion is Judaism. Israeli ethnicity, nationality and religion are strongly interrelated. Since Scripture clearly lists 12 tribes excluding Dan, the 144,000 witnesses are Israeli or Hebrews or followers of the Jewish religion. We call Jewish follows of Jesus, Messianic Jews who are also Christians. They are not specific to a tribe but in what they believe. Only 12,000 are from the actual tribe of Judah. boraddict: Also, you said:
In the Millennium, Jerusalem is the world’s capital with a fourth temple as animal sacrifices and burnt offerings continue to remind people of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 56:7-8).
There are four temples in Jerusalem, Old Earth. 1. Solomon (1 Kings 8:12-13) 2. Post Babylon/Herod’s Temple (Ezra 6:12, 15) 3. Tribulation (Revelation 11:1-2, Thessalonians 2:3-4, Matthew 24:15-16) 4. Millennium (Zechariah 6:11-13, Ezekiel 40-43) The Tribulation temple will be quickly replaced by Jesus Christ during the Millennium. There is no temple in the New Earth because Jesus tabernacles with us in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22). God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God (Revelation 21:2-3). Robert Cook TrumpetsTX21stcenturyrevelation.com Thank you TrumpetsTX, So you are saying that when Moses led the people from Egypt "their religion is Judaism." Okay, ones belief is a powerful thing and if that is what you choose to believe then that is okay with me. However, I do not agree. Also, the first reference to the Hebrews as a people appears to be "Eber" in Gen. 11:14 who was in Abrahams ancestral line. At least that is where my studies first show that family. So my understanding is that Abraham was a Hebrew having descended from Eber's family line, and not that the Hebrew line originated with Abraham. Again, it does not really matter to me but I do not agree that the Hebrew people originated with Abraham. Evidence supporting my conclusions are that Abraham's son Isaac married into their family line as did his grandson Jacob. That is, they did not mix with the other family lines but retained a common line with their wives in the family of Eber, in my opinion. The same is true for Joseph. He married into the Hebrew family line who came over from the Chaldeans; the area that Abraham came from. So just going off memory but the Hebrews existed long before Abraham and the children of Israel were Hebrew having descended from that family line (IMO). But again, these points of reference do not matter that much in the larger scope of things. I realize that many believe that the 144,000 as well as the 2 witnesses are messianic Jews, however, I do not hold that sentiment. Scripture clearly states that Judah is only one of the tribes and that their number is 12,000 (Rev. 7:4-8). No doubt that these 144,000 are of the family of Israel but they are not of the tribe of Judah IMO. So, as the focus narrows the scope, the 144,000 are Hebrew, and they are of Israel, and they are the tribes of Israel; but scripture does not support (IMO) that they are messianic Jews. Lately I have been considering the possibility that the 144,000 are men like Elijah that lived upon the earth but not having died. That from Adam down to the Savior's return there will have been 144,000 men having lived but not died. There is no way to prove this supposition but it may be possible. If this is true then the afore mentioned scope widens to include men before Eber. The problem with this idea is the writing of the Book of Revelation. For instance, if these were men who lived prior to our time, then why have John write the book. That is, the Book of Revelation was written to a specific group of people; His servants (Rev. 1:1). Why have the book written to the target audience if they had already been taken from the earth? So while the logic does not support this theory it nevertheless is a viable theory.
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TrumpetsTX
New Member
Author, 21st Century Revelation: World Wars, Iraq War & End Wars
Posts: 47
Favorite Verse: Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Post by TrumpetsTX on Sept 21, 2021 20:27:56 GMT -6
boraddict: So you are saying that when Moses led the people from Egypt "their religion is Judaism." Okay, ones belief is a powerful thing and if that is what you choose to believe then that is okay with me. However, I do not agree.
For some reason, the word Mosaism never caught on. After Israel split north and south, Judah had the center of worship, the temple in Jerusalem. Judaism is the name of their religion. Revelation says it better than me. During the Tribulation, God will recognize the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes (Revelation 7:3-4). Judaism Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1: a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions 2: the cultural, social, and religious beliefs and practices of the Jews 3: conformity to Jewish rites, ceremonies, and practices 4: the whole body of Jews: the Jewish people Robert Cook TrumpetsTX www.21stcenturyrevelation.com
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TrumpetsTX
New Member
Author, 21st Century Revelation: World Wars, Iraq War & End Wars
Posts: 47
Favorite Verse: Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Post by TrumpetsTX on Sept 21, 2021 21:08:05 GMT -6
TrumpetsTX: The lion is the United Kingdom, the eagle’s wings are the United States, the bear is Russia and the leopard is Germany. In the New Testament, a lion is a lion but describes nine different things (Daniel 7:3-4, 5-6, 7)
The iron and clay empire (Daniel 2:33-34) of the British lion, Russian Bear and German leopard merge into the 10 king Beast
Mike: Maybe, maybe not
TrumpetsTX Scriptural, yes! but prophecy needs the Spirit’s prompting and supported by secondary information. The Tribulation period is the most difficult study because it is purposely challenging, described by symbols in the Old Testament, locked in old traditions, complicated by false teachings and there is no consensus within the Church. When studying the Bible, definitely start with Scripture. It helps to study the teaching we do know so we know how to study prophecies we do not know. Then, studying prophecy is a pursuit of truth. Part of that is reviewing traditional teaching and sifting through false scenario. Like the rest of the Bible, End Time prophecy can be understood. Unlike other doctrines of the Bible, End Time prophecy is changing the closer to the end of the Church Age. Old Testament prophecies about Jesus are better understood with the Gospels and other New Testament writings (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). In 1948, Israel became a nation which changed prophecy and started the countdown clock (Psalm 90:10). There are over thirty super signs already fulfilled. Then add secondary sources such as an understanding of Jewish culture, world history and current events. For example, read Part 1 – Bible Chronology. Genesis 1 describes 7 days which tells of 7000 years from beginning to end (Psalm 90:4). Genesis 5 and 11 describe the first 2000 years. Then it gets challenging from Abraham to Moses to Solomon but verses give total years (430, 480). Judah’s kings are complicated but Hebrew history says the temple lasted 410 years. Now this is unscriptural but history states the temple was destroyed in 587-586 BC. So by calculation, Jesus Christ was crucified 4001 AM (years from creation). The Church Age is about 1993 years, Tribulation 7 years and Millennium 1000 years (Daniel 9:27, Revelation 20:4). As a double check, the Jewish year for 5782 is off about 216 years. We are living at the end of the Church Age and see parts of the Tribulation. Bible ChronologyJewish Chronologymike
Please understand that although this is your position and understanding, it does not equate to being scriptural or doctrinal. Just a few days ago in another we have another member (schooldad3) indicate these are animals that live in the middle east region and they being described for the readers to understand the kingdoms as they are geographically associated with these regions where the animals live. You make interesting points and while possible, they are not absolute.
Symbols mean something specific. Daniel saw a vision of a ram and a goat. Then in a dream, the angel, Gabriel, said the ram is Media-Persia and the goat is Greece. He refers to the first king that history says is Alexander the Great. During the second part of the Tribulation, the Antichrist rules the lion/bear/leopard beast (Revelation 13:1-2). So in Daniel, animals are more than geographic but symbols that refer to nations and the Beast is a multinational empire. The ram which you saw having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king (Daniel 8:20-21). The traditional interpretation is that Daniel 7 repeats. Daniel 2 describes a stature that is Babylon (gold head), Media-Persia (silver chest/arms), Greece (bronze stomach/thighs), Rome (iron legs) and end time kingdom (iron/clay feet). Nebuchadnezzar is the gold head (Daniel 2:38) but history helps with the other nations. Babylon is the lion with eagle wings, Media-Persia is the bear, Greece is the leopard and they merge into the beast of Rome. This interpretation is recorded in St. Jerome’s commentary (405-420). The traditional interpretation has a few problems. • Daniel describe 4 future kingdoms but Babylon is a present kingdom (Daniel 7:17) • Daniel 2 describes 5 nations while Daniel 7 describes 4 nations (Daniel 2:31-33, 7:3). • Media-Persia is the ram and Greece is the goat (Daniel 8:20-21). • Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece are not merging into Rome. Iraq, Iran, Greece are not merging into Italy (Revelation 13:1-2). • Revelation describes a lion, bear and leopard merging into the beast (Revelation 13:1-2). • The Antichrist is not the Beast. Although the ruler and his policies overlap, the man Antichrist rules the Beast (government). The man False Prophet rules the second beast (religion). • One of the heads of the beast is wounded to death. The Antichrist is not wounded but a nation is wounded (Revelation 13:3). I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority (Revelation 13:1-2). Another interpretation is the lion, bear and leopard in Daniel 7 describe the feet of iron and clay statue in Daniel 2. The lion is the United Kingdom and has the mouth or tongue of English. The eagle is the United States that was born from the lion but torn on July 4, 1776 (golden calf). The bear is Russia and stands on communism/socialism. The leopard is Germany that has four wings (Austria, France, Germany, Italy) and four heads (Holy Roman, German, Nazi, current). Germany was wounded in 1945 but healed in 1989. In Europe, the revived Roman empire of iron and clay is trying to unite together. West Germany and United Kingdom merged in 1973 then added East Germany in 1990, United Kingdom exited in 2020 but both will merge back with Russia. Then 10 kings/kingdoms will give power to Antichrist (Revelation 17:12-13). End Times Powers: China, European Union, India, Islam (below), Russia, United States End Times Religions: Islam
It is amazing to see the plan of God being fulfilled in our time. The watchers have a fron row seat. Looking at a map, there are six potential superpowers: China, European Union, India, Islam, Russia, United States. How do we get from America to Christ? Since we are so close to the Tribulation, the choices are limited as those six are 70 percent of the world’s population. The Bible describes all six by symbol and/or events. These are explained in in parts 3-5, 8-9: Daniel’s Dream, Seven Seals, Seven Trumpets, World War III and IV. All nations fall, God redeems Jews and Gentiles and Jesus Christ reigns. Encourange once another Robert Cook TrumpetsTXwww.21stcenturyrevelation.com
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Post by boraddict on Sept 21, 2021 22:17:14 GMT -6
boraddict: So you are saying that when Moses led the people from Egypt "their religion is Judaism." Okay, ones belief is a powerful thing and if that is what you choose to believe then that is okay with me. However, I do not agree.
For some reason, the word Mosaism never caught on. After Israel split north and south, Judah had the center of worship, the temple in Jerusalem. Judaism is the name of their religion. Revelation says it better than me. During the Tribulation, God will recognize the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes (Revelation 7:3-4). Judaism Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1: a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions 2: the cultural, social, and religious beliefs and practices of the Jews 3: conformity to Jewish rites, ceremonies, and practices 4: the whole body of Jews: the Jewish people Robert Cook TrumpetsTX www.21stcenturyrevelation.com TrumpetsTX, please notice that your description is about Jewish people, Jewish rites, the Jews, cultural and social practices of the Jews and so forth. It is about the Jews. Judaism is a religious belief that has developed among the Jews. The ancient Hebrews were more than the tribe of Judah since all the tribes were represented. Then as the tribe of Judah was nearly destroyed in about 587 B. C. a new form of religious belief began. It was then that a person could not do this or that, so as not to get a redo of the spanking. It was then that the over the top Judaism style of belief began that morphed over several hundred years into the Judaism that Jesus faced when he came upon the scene. That is, the ancient Hebrew religious practices were different than the Judaism at the time of Christ. It was that weird Judaism that made the atonement possible. Had the people been following the doctrine that was lived by Adam and Noah they would have worshiped the God of this earth rather than killing him. Abraham did not follow Judaism and neither did Moses. No, these holy men were Christians not Jews and as such they followed the Christian doctrines that we believe. Adam was a Christian since he followed Christ. Abraham was a Christian as was Moses and many others. They all followed Christ. Judaism does not teach to follow Christ and because of this evidence then the Webster reference is wrong, IMO.
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Post by mike on Sept 22, 2021 7:23:34 GMT -6
Interesting statement TrumpetsTX Aside from this thread, I dont know of any other interaction between us that would enable you to understand my position. Perhaps you are reading in all threads where I post and not commenting? If you feel that I am in error, I would greatly appreciate you taking the time to point out that you see something in another light. If my understanding is not doctrinal, I ask you to point our my error. However if you are asserting that the US is the eagle, lion is the UK and saying its doctrinal/scriptural, perhaps it is your position that is the error. There is no place in scripture that points us to a definitive on these statements therefore they should be taken as a possibility not doctrine. Something I have come to better understand regarding prophecy, is that many things have partial or incomplete fulfillment. For example we see types throughout the OT that could seemingly fit the bill to fulfill but they often fall a tad short of the full picture, like Alexander the Great and the kingdoms following. This fulfills in a general sense but there is some of the prophecy that it either hasnt or its been hidden where it did. Same for the destruction of Jerusalem...its final fulfillmet is coming, but has happened in shadows in times past.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 22, 2021 20:22:33 GMT -6
boraddict: So you are saying that when Moses led the people from Egypt "their religion is Judaism." Okay, ones belief is a powerful thing and if that is what you choose to believe then that is okay with me. However, I do not agree.
For some reason, the word Mosaism never caught on. After Israel split north and south, Judah had the center of worship, the temple in Jerusalem. Judaism is the name of their religion. Revelation says it better than me. During the Tribulation, God will recognize the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes (Revelation 7:3-4). Judaism Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1: a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions 2: the cultural, social, and religious beliefs and practices of the Jews 3: conformity to Jewish rites, ceremonies, and practices 4: the whole body of Jews: the Jewish people Robert Cook TrumpetsTX www.21stcenturyrevelation.com Hello guys, Sorry to jump in the party so late -- I got here as fast as i could. TrumpetsTX , I'm guessing that refers to Texas- amiright? So glad to have your here, since i don't think i've welcomed you to the channel. I your fellow otter [Otter/lion personality - extrovert, love people and love engaging in challenging discussions]watchman from Tennessee - another gun-loving Southern state where the people understand what "dinner" is, and sweet tea and cheese grits. ;-) Man, I really like a lot of your points and agree on so many- you might not even believe it. I thought this particular post in the thread is a good place to jump in, because it touches on several topics. So my dear sister Bora boraddict , - here is your Scots-Irish-Jewish-French, Polish-speaking brother with a big smile offering you a huge bowl of cheese grits and pecan pie. "Lucy, I gonna 'splain sometin to you." I'm guessing you know where that comes from. ;-) I think Natalie said it well in another post, but i hope i can explain this in a way that makes sense. -[ I think that your study of the tribe of Judah is amazing, and i really would like your notes, as i think it would be helpful in my series on the the Jewish perspective. ] If it sounds critical or harsh, it's not my intent at all -- I think that you get a bit too stuck on the specific term Jews - but it's really Israelites/Hebrews. Forget about Judah/ Judaism for a moment. The text in Revelation explicitly names and identifies the 144,000 as Hebrews/Israelites. They are from the 12 tribes of Israel. No one is saying here - as far as i know that all 144,000 are all from the tribe of Judah. Most Jews across the world identify and trace their bloodline to one of two streams - the Aszkenazi - which is from Europe, [Which is my bloodline - from France] and the Sephardic, which are mostly from North Africa and Spain. I also agree 1000% that most of what is practiced today is traditional Rabbinic Judaism, a far cry from what was given by Moses - but that fact is really meaningless in terms of the fact that they are still Children of Israel - still part of God's chosen people - and even though they are blinded, it's only temporary, and scripture explicitly says that "until the time of the gentiles is complete" another huge fact that underscores the point that we are in the Church Age or the Age of the Gentiles and that the Tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation. We are saying that the 144,000 are all Isrealites - God's chosen nation. Part of the thing that makes it confusing is that being Jewish is both a race which is passed by the mother's side and a religion. So you can be Korean ethnicity and convert to Judaism, and keep kosher, AND you can be ethnically Jewish and atheist . When it mentions the tribes - it's talking about the bloodline. - Not Koreans who converted to Judaism. Think of it in terms of clans of Scots - of which I am a part. ;-) There is the McCloud clan, with it's own unique pattern and colors. Then there is the McDougal clan, and the McGregor, each with it's own color and particular pattern which can literally be traced back hundreds of years. They are united by a common ethnicity/ bloodline. They are not Asian, they are not German, they are not Jewish, they are not Latino, they are not Persian - they are Scots. The same is true here of the group of 144,000 - they are each listed specifically as 12,000 from each tribe [bloodline]. They are not Scots, Not a single one of them are Latino, or not a single one of the 144,000 are Polish, or Danish, or Persian. -They are circumcised, - they are from the seed of promise - Isaac, from Abraham and Sarah, not Hagar and Ishmael. - They keep passover, and circumcision as an everlasting covenant between them and God, - they use a lunisolar calendar- instituted and commanded by God and they are not Gentiles.- which is All other nations and people groups on the planet. - They are chosen by God as a holy nation, and have a unique role in end times. - Jerusalem will be the center of worship, and all nations of the world will come up to Jerusalem each and every year, and celebrate - Sukkot - Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) when God tabernacles with us. Zechariah 12. So again - this group of 144,000 - are Children of Israel, -[Bloodline], not Scots ,Asians, or Latinos. It is the my personal view and many other non-Jewish scholars that these 144,000 Jewish witnesses come about, because Jews everywhere believe that the great resurrection happens on the same day as the wedding of the Messiah. When say 85,000,000 or so people disappear, and tens of millions of dead people are resurrected, this is literally a sign that the world cannot miss. Twitter and Instagram blows up. While much of the church is asleep and apathetic and too busy with their golf game, and the Jewish nation is blinded, - they will make the connection that the resurrection happened - and He took a Gentile bride on the day of the wedding of the Messiah. ;-) Here's how and where you get 144,000 Jewish witnesses - who better to explain the connection to their fellow Jews -- That's another reason that this group is not Gentile - It's because the Scots and Poles and Latinos don't know anything about the Lord's feast days and calendar. TrumpetsTX - Man, I sure wish i could meet for some Texas ribs and discuss end times stuff. ;-) I really can't even follow who you're quoting, and what part is your reply and what part is the person's quote. I know there is a way to isolate one or two sentences out of a post and put that in a quote box, but i don't know how to do that. Hmmm. Sorry. What i do - to make it clear - is I copy and paste mike 's quote, or sog 's quote and put that in blue or red, and then it's totally clear exactly what part is their quote and the rest is my reply. TrumpetsTX said
"Mike, Please understand that although this is your position and understanding, it does not equate to being scriptural or doctrinal. Just a few days ago in another we have another member (schooldad3) indicate these are animals that live in the middle east region and they being described for the readers to understand the kingdoms as they are geographically associated with these regions where the animals live. You make interesting points and while possible, they are not absolute. Please consider that saying that something "does not equate to being scriptural or doctrinal" is very unclear. Your point of view is your opinion, and we can both agree that cheese grits are great, but to say it does not equate to being doctrinal doesn't say anything. Something might be UnBiblical - or go against scripture, or not scripturally-based, but that does not make it "doctrinal or not". Also - the notion that the eagle is the United States is completely your opinion and not backed by scripture. For centuries, the symbol of Germany and Poland has been the eagle - long before America was even discovered. It's a lot like people saying absolutely that the Catholic Church IS in fact the Whore of Revelation. We can speculate as to the AC, - based on the characteristics, but if someone thinks it's Macron - who is Gentile - and someone else thinks it's Trump- who is also Gentile - either one is not "doctrinal" nor is it "being scriptural" - it's speculation. The Jews are looking for the Messiah, and will be fooled by the AC. to me- it seems ludicrous that they would think some uncircumcised French guy is the Messiah. ;-) That's part of what makes Revelation so challenging - we have some things that are literal and some things are symbolic, and as Mike said, some things are partially fulfilled, but not fully.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 22, 2021 20:25:24 GMT -6
mike , I am with you on your assessment of scripture that you stated in your previous posting. Scripture is so complex; even the stuff that appears to be literal may have secondary attachments. An example of this is Rev. 20:4 that is about the first resurrection and this is evidenced by the following verse, Rev. 20:5. However, I want to point out the seemingly literal statement in the verse that is much more than what it seems. "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Please notice that the ones that have authority to judge reign with Christ for a thousand years. This is evidenced by the link from the beginning of the verse to the ending of the verse. Secondly, please notice that the souls of those having been beheaded for the testimony of Lord Jesus as well as those who had not worshiped the beast or its image etc. come to life. That is, there are two groups, evidently, that have gone through the tribulation: 1) those who gave their lives for their testimony's, and 2) those who lived through the tribulation but did not die during the tribulation but afterwards; sometime during those 1,000 years that Christ reigns. Nevertheless, weather they died during the reign of the beast for their testimonies, or afterwards, sometime during the 1,000 years following the tribulation, that both groups came to life in the first resurrection that appears to extend over the entire 1,000 year period of time. Because, those judges reign with Christ for the entire 1,000 years; they being judges over the living, not the dead. That is, the dead of the first resurrection have died in Christ and receive no judgment. They have Salvation in Christ. So, who are the judges judging but the living. As you can see, the government that is to come appears to be a government of judges like the days of old before the reign of the kings. You know, when the people wanted a king and that began with Saul of the tribe of Benjamin. But during the 1,000 years there is only Christ as the king and he establishes judges over the people. Apparently, because that is what the verse seems to say. For clarification please look at the verse as follows: "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed (In Rev. 7:4-8 please notice that the tribe of Dan that is the tribe of judges is missing. This has something to do with that.) first group: Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God (Rev. 13:7), second group: and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands (Rev. 15:2). They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." And how do these resurrected reign with Christ but that they live upon the earth; I guess. That is, the resurrected live among the physically living; is the verse saying that? I do not know, but the "came to life" clause seems to apply to the two groups whereas the "and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years" seems to apply to the judges. As you can see the verse that appears to say something so simple has a huge statement about the 1,000 year reign of the Savior and his government.
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Post by mike on Sept 23, 2021 7:02:09 GMT -6
boraddict you got me thinking again and that is dangerous, LOL. Preface - regardless of your view on the timing of the 1st resurrection... Questions (for anyone of course) - what happens to the small handful of people who do not take the mark, survive the entire 7 years...perhaps they are off grid someplace, and do not believe in Christ when He returns. They are certainly not important enough to be swayed into worship of the beast... At any point after His return they could believe, but they still eventually physically die. Are they resurrected to life during the 1000 years or immediately upon death? OR do they wait until the 2nd resurrection which they are judged according to their works?
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 23, 2021 11:02:03 GMT -6
mike- i knowit was to boraddict, but just a quick question for clarification, - for these handful of off-grid folks who dont take the mark, and survive do you mean until the harpazo/event. - Rapture referred to by Paul in the 2 most universally used passages? Or are you meaning the event of the Day of the Lord- day of darkness,gloom, death,vengeance,war, despair, cruel and terrible and there are solar eclipses and blood moons? Or do you see these as one and the same.?? Cheers.
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Post by mike on Sept 23, 2021 11:17:51 GMT -6
mike - i knowit was to boraddict , but just a quick question for clarification, - for these handful of off-grid folks who dont take the mark, and survive do you mean until the harpazo/event. - Rapture referred to by Paul in the 2 most universally used passages? Or are you meaning the event of the Day of the Lord- day of darkness,gloom, death,vengeance,war, despair, cruel and terrible and there are solar eclipses and blood moons? Or do you see these as one and the same.?? Cheers. It was to BORA but really anyone to chime in. So if the rapture occurs at the beginning of the 70th week, somewhere in the middle or at the very end - what happens to those who would refuse Christ and the mark until the end? I realize this may not be a reality as I am not sure how anyone who would be left on earth through the entire tribulation would be able to doubt what was happening (Christ returning), but we know that men are wicked in heart and although a slim chance, still remains a possibility. So if someone were to make it through the entire trib without the mark, as an unbeliever what happens to them? There is one resurrection to life and one to death. I know there are plenty of possible scenarios where some think that the 1st resurrection is an ongoing event with several smaller resurrection events possible until...however I dont see that view fully supported in scripture. the question would be - if you miss the first resurrection and survive into the first day of the Millennial reign, when are you resurrected?
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Post by venge on Sept 23, 2021 12:10:11 GMT -6
mike - i knowit was to boraddict , but just a quick question for clarification, - for these handful of off-grid folks who dont take the mark, and survive do you mean until the harpazo/event. - Rapture referred to by Paul in the 2 most universally used passages? Or are you meaning the event of the Day of the Lord- day of darkness,gloom, death,vengeance,war, despair, cruel and terrible and there are solar eclipses and blood moons? Or do you see these as one and the same.?? Cheers. It was to BORA but really anyone to chime in. So if the rapture occurs at the beginning of the 70th week, somewhere in the middle or at the very end - what happens to those who would refuse Christ and the mark until the end? I realize this may not be a reality as I am not sure how anyone who would be left on earth through the entire tribulation would be able to doubt what was happening (Christ returning), but we know that men are wicked in heart and although a slim chance, still remains a possibility. So if someone were to make it through the entire trib without the mark, as an unbeliever what happens to them? There is one resurrection to life and one to death. I know there are plenty of possible scenarios where some think that the 1st resurrection is an ongoing event with several smaller resurrection events possible until...however I dont see that view fully supported in scripture. the question would be - if you miss the first resurrection and survive into the first day of the Millennial reign, when are you resurrected? mike , I really dont want to get into another topic but if I can change your question slightly... The warning states: So not getting the mark would protect them from the out poured wrath of God meaning 2 things. 1. This isnt his wrath on mankind or the warning wouldnt be inserted into it. 2. The poured out wrath that is warned will follow on anyone who takes the mark only happens in the bowls making the bowls wrath and the place where the mark comes in (which I believe is in the Trumpets, not wrath) Perhaps this is why we are told that any believer that see's this happening must: 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.You also asked: IMHO, you arnt. Because we are told many times through scripture that anyone that survives of the nations will go up to worship at his Holy Mountain. We are also told of anyone who doesnt go up and what would happen. Many people will be converted and many people from the nations of the world will be alive
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Post by boraddict on Sept 23, 2021 19:57:13 GMT -6
boraddict you got me thinking again and that is dangerous, LOL. Preface - regardless of your view on the timing of the 1st resurrection... Questions (for anyone of course) - what happens to the small handful of people who do not take the mark, survive the entire 7 years...perhaps they are off grid someplace, and do not believe in Christ when He returns. They are certainly not important enough to be swayed into worship of the beast... At any point after His return they could believe, but they still eventually physically die. Are they resurrected to life during the 1000 years or immediately upon death? OR do they wait until the 2nd resurrection which they are judged according to their works? mike, I think there are only two choices that are to accept Christ or the beast. If someone is off grid and make it through the seven years then they either choose to follow the Savior or not. There is no middle ground. If they do not accept the Savior then they will suffer the wrath of God that is coming. Pertaining to the second resurrection it is a resurrection of the dead; the spiritually dead. Therefore, anyone living during the 1,000 years will resurrect during that period of time because they are born again and spiritually alive in Christ. So they may resurrect upon their death and that is what seems to be the case for many; I am guessing about that. But for a few they may take a detour from the resurrection upon death and wait a few years or so. I do not know that it really matters; however, they all will resurrect before the second resurrection because they are in the resurrection of the living.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 24, 2021 6:34:10 GMT -6
Sorry that i can't copy the quote of Bora on my smart phone. It's not smart enough. I think she is spot on here. Its no middle ground- but the thing is that for those who do take it- It's no going back, no refunds, no redemption. This is one reason that many end-times scholars believe that it is something connected to altering your DNA. As for those in the tribulation who by chance survive into the start of the 1000 year Sabbath, - we dont have anything that tells us definitely if they have normal bodies and normal 80ish year lifespans or if they all just get free upgraded bodies. Since the Bema judgement would have already happened. Perry Stone did an incredible video where he specifically addressed this exact question mike, and he goes through of the 3 eschatological views, but starts with Post-trib, then addresses Pre-wrath and finally Pre-trib. It's the best I've ever seen anywhere. He uses scripture after scripture. I'll find the link and post it. "Explaining the mystery of the 7th Trumpet. Episode # 779" Blessings.
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TrumpetsTX
New Member
Author, 21st Century Revelation: World Wars, Iraq War & End Wars
Posts: 47
Favorite Verse: Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
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Post by TrumpetsTX on Dec 4, 2021 0:22:34 GMT -6
In 2021, I posted 12 articles that explains prophecy. It is a good overview of my understanding of literal interpretation of Scripture. Thanks to so many people and ministries that helped in my research. Unlike other doctrines, prophecy is not settled because events are changing our understanding of what is happening in the End Times. The seals and trumpets along with world government, religion and economics are merging into the Antichrist's reign over the Beast. We are seeing all this at the end of the Church Age right before the Tribulation begins. I will be the first person to say I don't know all the answers. After writing 1 book with 2 more to properly complete Bible prophecy, I still consider myself a student of the Word and not a scholar. There is still so much to learn. I want to encourage the Church to know all nations fall and Jesus Christ reigns. If we are in Christ, we will also reigns with our Savior and Lord. This story is so amazing not only to know and understand prophecy but to see glimpses of the character and nature of God. Then to share all of this with the Church to encourage Christians to study, know and apply it to our lives as a testimony of what God is doing in us by preparing us for eternity. May you be encouraged and blessed by what is written. 21st Century View of Revelation
1. Bible Chronology 2. Revelation Views 3. Daniel's Dream: America and EU in the Bible 4. Seven Seals: Four Horses on the Run 5. Seven Trumpets & Seven Wars 6. Jewish Calendar & Our Time 7. Fall Feasts & Prophecy 8. China: World War III 9. Russia: World War IV 10. Armageddon: World War V 11. Second Coming of Jesus Christ 12. Millennium: 1000 Year Reign Robert Cook TrumpetsTXwww.21stcenturyRevelation.com
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