21st Century View of Revelation - Parts 1-12

boraddict: So you are saying that when Moses led the people from Egypt "their religion is Judaism." Okay, ones belief is a powerful thing and if that is what you choose to believe then that is okay with me. However, I do not agree.

For some reason, the word Mosaism never caught on. After Israel split north and south, Judah had the center of worship, the temple in Jerusalem. Judaism is the name of their religion. Revelation says it better than me. During the Tribulation, God will recognize the 144,000 witnesses from the 12 tribes (Revelation 7:3-4).

Judaism
Merriam-Webster Dictionary
1: a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions
2: the cultural, social, and religious beliefs and practices of the Jews
3: conformity to Jewish rites, ceremonies, and practices
4: the whole body of Jews: the Jewish people

Robert Cook
TrumpetsTX
www.21stcenturyrevelation.com

TrumpetsTX, please notice that your description is about Jewish people, Jewish rites, the Jews, cultural and social practices of the Jews and so forth. It is about the Jews. Judaism is a religious belief that has developed among the Jews.

The ancient Hebrews were more than the tribe of Judah since all the tribes were represented. Then as the tribe of Judah was nearly destroyed in about 587 B. C. a new form of religious belief began. It was then that a person could not do this or that, so as not to get a redo of the spanking. It was then that the over the top Judaism style of belief began that morphed over several hundred years into the Judaism that Jesus faced when he came upon the scene. That is, the ancient Hebrew religious practices were different than the Judaism at the time of Christ. It was that weird Judaism that made the atonement possible. Had the people been following the doctrine that was lived by Adam and Noah they would have worshiped the God of this earth rather than killing him. Abraham did not follow Judaism and neither did Moses.

No, these holy men were Christians not Jews and as such they followed the Christian doctrines that we believe. Adam was a Christian since he followed Christ. Abraham was a Christian as was Moses and many others. They all followed Christ. Judaism does not teach to follow Christ and because of this evidence then the Webster reference is wrong, IMO.

Hello guys,  Sorry to jump in the party so late -- I got here as fast as i could.     TrumpetsTX ,  I'm guessing that refers to Texas- amiright?   So glad to have your here, since i don't think i've welcomed you to the channel.   
I your fellow otter [Otter/lion personality - extrovert, love people and love engaging in challenging discussions]watchman from Tennessee - another gun-loving Southern state where the people understand what "dinner" is, and sweet tea and cheese grits.  ;-)   Man, I really like a lot of your points and agree on so many- you might not even believe it.    I thought this particular post in the thread is a good place to jump in, because it touches on several topics.  

So my dear sister Bora boraddict , - here is your Scots-Irish-Jewish-French, Polish-speaking brother with a big smile offering you a huge bowl of cheese grits and pecan pie.  "Lucy, I gonna 'splain sometin to you."   I'm guessing you know where that comes from.   ;-) 

I think Natalie said it well in another post, but i hope i can explain this in a way that makes sense.  -[ I think that your study of the tribe of Judah is amazing, and i really would like your notes, as i think it would be helpful in my series on the the Jewish perspective. ] 

If it sounds critical or harsh, it's not my intent at all -- I think that you get a bit too stuck on the specific term Jews - but it's really Israelites/Hebrews.   Forget about Judah/ Judaism for a moment.  The text in Revelation explicitly names and identifies the 144,000 as Hebrews/Israelites.  They are from the 12 tribes of Israel.   No one is saying here - as far as i know that all 144,000 are all from the tribe of Judah.   Most Jews across the world identify and trace their bloodline to one of two streams - the Aszkenazi - which is from Europe, [Which is my bloodline - from France] and the Sephardic, which are mostly from North Africa and Spain.   I also agree 1000% that most of what is practiced today is traditional Rabbinic Judaism, a far cry from what was given by Moses - but that fact is really meaningless in terms of the fact that they are still Children of Israel - still part of God's chosen people - and even though they are blinded, it's only temporary, and scripture explicitly says that "until the time of the gentiles is complete"   another huge fact that underscores the point that we are in the Church Age or the Age of the Gentiles and that the Tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation.   



We are saying that the 144,000 are all Isrealites - God's chosen nation.   Part of the thing that makes it confusing is that being Jewish is both a race which is passed by the mother's side and a religion. So you can be Korean ethnicity and convert to Judaism, and keep kosher, AND you can be ethnically Jewish and atheist .   When it mentions the tribes - it's talking about the bloodline.   - Not Koreans who converted to Judaism.   

Think of it in terms of clans of Scots -  of which I am a part. ;-)    There is the McCloud clan, with it's own unique pattern and colors.   Then there is the McDougal clan, and the McGregor, each with it's own color and particular pattern which can literally be traced back hundreds of years.   They are united by a common ethnicity/ bloodline.   They are not Asian, they are not German, they are not Jewish, they are not Latino, they are not Persian - they are Scots.   

The same is true here of the group of 144,000  - they are each listed specifically as 12,000 from each tribe [bloodline].  They are not Scots, Not a single one of them are Latino, or not a single one of the 144,000 are Polish, or Danish, or Persian. 

-They are circumcised,
- they are from the seed of promise - Isaac, from Abraham and Sarah, not Hagar and Ishmael. 
- They keep passover, and circumcision as an everlasting covenant between them and God, 
- they use a lunisolar calendar- instituted and commanded by God and they are not Gentiles.- which is All other nations and people groups on the planet. 
- They are chosen by God as a holy nation, and have a unique role in end times.
- Jerusalem will be the center of worship, and all nations of the world will come up to Jerusalem each and every year, and celebrate - Sukkot - Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) when God tabernacles with us.  Zechariah 12.  So again - this group of 144,000 - are Children of Israel, -[Bloodline], not Scots ,Asians, or Latinos.    

It is the my personal view and many other non-Jewish scholars that these 144,000 Jewish witnesses come about, because Jews everywhere believe that the great resurrection happens on the same day as the wedding of the Messiah.   When say 85,000,000 or so people disappear, and tens of millions of dead people are resurrected, this is literally a sign that the world cannot miss.  Twitter and Instagram blows up.   While much of the church is asleep and apathetic and too busy with their golf game, and the Jewish nation is blinded, - they will make the connection that the resurrection happened - and He took a Gentile bride on the day of the wedding of the Messiah.  ;-)    Here's how and where you get 144,000 Jewish witnesses - who better to explain the connection to their fellow Jews -- That's another reason that this group is not Gentile - It's because the Scots and Poles and Latinos don't know anything about the Lord's feast days and calendar.      

TrumpetsTX   - Man, I sure wish i could meet for some Texas ribs and discuss end times stuff. ;-) 
 I really can't even follow who you're quoting, and what part is your reply and what part is the person's quote.     I know there is a way to isolate one or two sentences out of a post and put that in a quote box, but i don't know how to do that.   Hmmm.  Sorry.   What i do - to make it clear - is I copy and paste mike 's quote, or sog 's quote and put that in blue or red, and then it's totally clear exactly what part is their quote and the rest is my reply.   

    TrumpetsTX  said

"Mike,  Please understand that although this is your position and understanding, it does not equate to being scriptural or doctrinal. Just a few days ago in another we have another member (schooldad3) indicate these are animals that live in the middle east region and they being described for the readers to understand the kingdoms as they are geographically associated with these regions where the animals live. You make interesting points and while possible, they are not absolute.
 
Please consider that saying that something "does not equate to being scriptural or doctrinal" is very unclear.  Your point of view is your opinion, and we can both agree that cheese grits are great, but to say it does not equate to being doctrinal doesn't say anything.   Something might be UnBiblical - or go against scripture, or not scripturally-based, but that does not make it "doctrinal or not".   
Also - the notion that the eagle is the United States is completely your opinion and not backed by scripture.   
For centuries, the symbol of Germany and Poland has been the eagle - long before America was even discovered.     It's a lot like people saying absolutely that the Catholic Church IS in fact the Whore of Revelation. We can speculate as to the AC, - based on the characteristics, but if someone thinks it's Macron - who is Gentile - and someone else thinks it's Trump- who is also Gentile - either one is not "doctrinal" nor is it "being scriptural"  - it's speculation.   The Jews are looking for the Messiah, and will be fooled by the AC.   to me- it seems ludicrous that they would think some uncircumcised French guy is the Messiah.   ;-)   

That's part of what makes Revelation so challenging - we have some things that are literal and some things are symbolic, and as Mike said, some things are partially fulfilled, but not fully.  

boraddict you got me thinking again and that is dangerous, LOL.

Preface - regardless of your view on the timing of the 1st resurrection...

Questions (for anyone of course) - what happens to the small handful of people who do not take the mark, survive the entire 7 years...perhaps they are off grid someplace, and do not believe in Christ when He returns. They are certainly not important enough to be swayed into worship of the beast...

At any point after His return they could believe, but they still eventually physically die. Are they resurrected to life during the 1000 years or immediately upon death? OR do they wait until the 2nd resurrection which they are judged according to their works?

It was to BORA but really anyone to chime in. So if the rapture occurs at the beginning of the 70th week, somewhere in the middle or at the very end - what happens to those who would refuse Christ and the mark until the end? 

I realize this may not be a reality as I am not sure how anyone who would be left on earth through the entire tribulation would be able to doubt what was happening (Christ returning), but we know that men are wicked in heart and although a slim chance, still remains a possibility. So if someone were to make it through the entire trib without the mark, as an unbeliever what happens to them?

There is one resurrection to life and one to death. I know there are plenty of possible scenarios where some think that the 1st resurrection is an ongoing event with several smaller resurrection events possible until...however I dont see that view fully supported in scripture. 
the question would be - if you miss the first resurrection and survive into the first day of the Millennial reign, when are you resurrected?

mike, I think there are only two choices that are to accept Christ or the beast. If someone is off grid and make it through the seven years then they either choose to follow the Savior or not. There is no middle ground. If they do not accept the Savior then they will suffer the wrath of God that is coming.

Pertaining to the second resurrection it is a resurrection of the dead; the spiritually dead. Therefore, anyone living during the 1,000 years will resurrect during that period of time because they are born again and spiritually alive in Christ. So they may resurrect upon their death and that is what seems to be the case for many; I am guessing about that. But for a few they may take a detour from the resurrection upon death and wait a few years or so. I do not know that it really matters; however, they all will resurrect before the second resurrection because they are in the resurrection of the living.