servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 21, 2021 21:22:54 GMT -6
I must commend you all on your separate studies and interpretations. It is obvious you all have put quite a bit of efforts into examining and interpreting the end days/revelation/rapture/second coming. I've browsed through some of it and will look closer when time allows. However, from an outside view, looking in, I now remember why I have never invested into a very specific theory on these things. It is hurting my brain trying to figure out how so many people can have such vastly differing interpretations of the same scriptures. Not to say that any are wrong, I've not had enough time to fully form any comprehensive enough opinion of my own to make any comments on yours in that regard, just that the more I read about the strongly held translations/interpretations people have, I can't help but realize that all cannot be correct. Therefore, for my part, I'm sticking to what is obviously stated, needing no point of view to understand, and hoping it will in the end be a comprehensive view. I'm afraid for myself, to allow my speculation much beyond that in the hopes I won't add and subtract from what was intended after all to be understood by tent makers, farmers, fisherman and common men. Some of the theories I've read and heard, would be far beyond the understanding of a common man.(such as myself) LOL Be blessed PS- Sorry, one additional question for any that hold to the pre-mid-post trib theories. As far as I can tell, the people in the days when the language of the bible was still spoken, did not take any specific one of these. Nor from what I can find did the people of the next thousand or so odd years. It seems all three of these are what I would term theology of the "modern times". Is there a specific reason or hypothesis for why that is? Do we think we have a better understanding of scripture than they did? This is not meant to be offensive, but is an honest question, which I think is valid to ask. Thanks for your patience with an old man.  |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 21, 2021 22:29:43 GMT -6
...It is hurting my brain trying to figure out how so many people can have such vastly differing interpretations of the same scriptures. Not to say that any are wrong, I've not had enough time to fully form any comprehensive enough opinion of my own to make any comments on yours in that regard, just that the more I read about the strongly held translations/interpretations people have, I can't help but realize that all cannot be correct. Therefore, for my part, I'm sticking to what is obviously stated, needing no point of view to understand, and hoping it will in the end be a comprehensive view.... , it hurts my brain to see all the differing interpretations that I have of the same scriptures. Your point is exactly my description because I debate myself in trying to find flaws in what I believe. 1) Recently I was looking at the tribulation era that is coming up in our near future and wondered how the current political environment fits into that future. The answer that I have on that remains until I find other information that might be applicable. 2) Also I was looking at the fall of saints who deny the Savior and how sad that is. Like Iscariot who turned from the Savior via some justification that he had. I was wondering why these people loose their opportunity and concluded that it must have something to do with their ability to repent. Don't know. 3) The scriptures were written with many interpretations in mind. The Savior allows each of us to define our own belief and very few can find the perfect interpretation. I think that is why we have so many denominations to choose from. Some will choose this interpretation and some another interpretation. A wide road with a very narrow gate. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 21, 2021 23:54:29 GMT -6
3) The scriptures were written with many interpretations in mind. The Savior allows each of us to define our own belief and very few can find the perfect interpretation. I think that is why we have so many denominations to choose from. Some will choose this interpretation and some another interpretation. A wide road with a very narrow gate. Not to poke fun, but you made me laugh out loud! I believe you mixed your metaphors, scripturally speaking. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it."I'm pretty sure you want the narrow road! :) |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 22, 2021 2:51:06 GMT -6
3) The scriptures were written with many interpretations in mind. The Savior allows each of us to define our own belief and very few can find the perfect interpretation. I think that is why we have so many denominations to choose from. Some will choose this interpretation and some another interpretation. A wide road with a very narrow gate. Not to poke fun, but you made me laugh out loud! I believe you mixed your metaphors, scripturally speaking. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it."I'm pretty sure you want the narrow road! The metaphorical application was given in my post. So no, I am saying that "the road of scripture interpretation" is wide, and "the correct interpretation" comes through a narrow gate. My post was not about life and destruction, so your interpretation of what I have written in my post is incorrect. This shows that metaphors are often liquid but are given rigid interpretations. Please consider the metaphor "serpents" wherein it refers to followers of Satan in Matt. 23:33, and followers of Christ in Matt. 10:16. This supports my previous posting that the context defines the metaphor. Another example from Isa. 28:10, that is one of my favorites is "precept upon precept" that many take to mean to learn a little doctrine and then on top of that a little more doctrine. However, the context of the chapter reveals in Isa. 28:13 that that interpretation is incorrect. So, what is the correct interpretation? The answer is that the precept is a gift that is added upon. So there are gifts upon gifts that a father gives to a child. That is, the metaphor does not mean the rigid interpretation that is literally a precept of doctrine upon a precept of doctrine, but the bestowing of gifts of doctrine. And, since the religious leaders who are drunk on power do not understand how God works in bestowing his gifts, then they fall backwards in their learning of doctrine to be snared by the enemy. This rigid learning is a snare that should be avoided. So IMO, it is good to have many interpretations to draw upon and use each one in it's applicable placement of understanding scripture. |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 22, 2021 9:49:23 GMT -6
I apologize for if I came across rude or dismissing other positions. The only one I dismiss is the post trib one that says we rapture at the end of the 70th week because that would have the Church going through God's wrath and that's unscriptural.
Please take this in a non argumentative way. But I believe scripture says we are not destined for God's wrath, and/or will not be the recipient of this wrath. Which is not the same as saying we don't see it or that we don't experience others receiving it. As an example, if a man beats another man in his wrath, you can be standing there watching the wrath happen, but not be having his wrath put on you. I'm just going from memory here, so if there is a specific scripture that says we are actually in heaven, or are somewhere else during this, rather than an indication of it, I'm happy to be corrected.
And I apologize for appearing rude to venge. I was just frustrated because it seemed to me that venge is always saying that pre-trib people dodn't think Christians would go through any tribulation because they don't go through The Tribulation. But that's not what we are saying. There is a distinction because Christians do have tribulations. Yes, those in China, Iran, North Korea etc are going through tribulation. We in the US may very well see an increase in persecution here. But it's small T not big T. Yes, technically only the last 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation, but people have taken it to mean all 7 years. Maybe they need to study it more? That's just one of the reasons why I have gone to saying Daniel's 70th week instead of the Tribulation Period. It's more accurate that way, I think anyway.
A question, since you see tribulation as different things. I know there is a distinction between tribulation and "the great tribulation", scripturally. But is there a verse or verses that specify this "great tribulation is strictly speaking, a 3.5 year period, as opposed to an event or events? Or is this simply a commonly accepted interpretation?
It's a pulling together of Scripture from Daniel and Matthew (and maybe Revelation). I will put together a more complete answer for you this weekend. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 22, 2021 10:33:44 GMT -6
Not to poke fun, but you made me laugh out loud! I believe you mixed your metaphors, scripturally speaking. "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it."I'm pretty sure you want the narrow road! The metaphorical application was given in my post. So no, I am saying that "the road of scripture interpretation" is wide, and "the correct interpretation" comes through a narrow gate. My post was not about life and destruction, so your interpretation of what I have written in my post is incorrect. This shows that metaphors are often liquid but are given rigid interpretations. A "wide road" used to describe other than a literal street, IS a metaphor. A "narrow gate" used the way you used it IS also a metaphor. Perhaps not intended to mean the same things as the verse I provided, but metaphors none the less. Please consider the metaphor "serpents" wherein it refers to followers of Satan in Matt. 23:33, and followers of Christ in Matt. 10:16. This supports my previous posting that the context defines the metaphor. The context you gave was describing interpretation of scripture. I understood your meaning well. I will point out that "defining" a metaphor, is subjective to the "interpretation" of the reader. What you mean and what another person reads are not always the same thing. This is a common everyday occurrence in writing. I have written poetry for 20 odd years and my poems mean different things to each reader, even though they are metaphoric descriptions of my personal experiences often times.
Another example from Isa. 28:10, that is one of my favorites is "precept upon precept" that many take to mean to learn a little doctrine and then on top of that a little more doctrine. However, the context of the chapter reveals in Isa. 28:13 that that interpretation is incorrect. So, what is the correct interpretation? The answer is that the precept is a gift that is added upon. So there are gifts upon gifts that a father gives to a child. That is, the metaphor does not mean the rigid interpretation that is literally a precept of doctrine upon a precept of doctrine, but the bestowing of gifts of doctrine. And, since the religious leaders who are drunk on power do not understand how God works in bestowing his gifts, then they fall backwards in their learning of doctrine to be snared by the enemy. This rigid learning is a snare that should be avoided. Interpretation, by it's very nature involves ones understanding and viewpoint on a given thing, otherwise there can be no interpretation. It would just be a statement.
So IMO, it is good to have many interpretations to draw upon and use each one in it's applicable placement of understanding scripture. My dear, I fear you have taken offense where none was offered. I'm not arguing your logic, or even disagreeing with what you had previously stated. I absolutely understood what you intended to mean. I was serious when I said "not to poke fun", I naturally recognized the phraseology from the scriptures I quoted, which I realized you may not have intended to associate to, but if you just take them as they are and read your posting,(assuming you have a good sense of humor), it naturally makes a sort of irony, or unintended joke. This made me laugh. I enjoyed it! I was sharing my mirth, not belittling your position. I apologize if it offended. That was far from my intent. I just wanted you to know you made an old man laugh out loud. Thinking that was personally a good thing. Be blessed |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 22, 2021 21:14:24 GMT -6
My dear, I fear you have taken offense where none was offered. I'm not arguing your logic, or even disagreeing with what you had previously stated. I absolutely understood what you intended to mean. I was serious when I said "not to poke fun", I naturally recognized the phraseology from the scriptures I quoted, which I realized you may not have intended to associate to, but if you just take them as they are and read your posting,(assuming you have a good sense of humor), it naturally makes a sort of irony, or unintended joke. This made me laugh. I enjoyed it! I was sharing my mirth, not belittling your position. I apologize if it offended. That was far from my intent. I just wanted you to know you made an old man laugh out loud. Thinking that was personally a good thing. Be blessed Thank you servantofthelord, and I was not offended but was looking forward to a debate. Where have all the debaters gone? |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 22, 2021 21:46:26 GMT -6
My dear, I fear you have taken offense where none was offered. I'm not arguing your logic, or even disagreeing with what you had previously stated. I absolutely understood what you intended to mean. I was serious when I said "not to poke fun", I naturally recognized the phraseology from the scriptures I quoted, which I realized you may not have intended to associate to, but if you just take them as they are and read your posting,(assuming you have a good sense of humor), it naturally makes a sort of irony, or unintended joke. This made me laugh. I enjoyed it! I was sharing my mirth, not belittling your position. I apologize if it offended. That was far from my intent. I just wanted you to know you made an old man laugh out loud. Thinking that was personally a good thing. Be blessed Thank you servantofthelord , and I was not offended but was looking forward to a debate. Where have all the debaters gone? I have been told and heeded the advice of moderators, that participating in debate is frowned upon. :-[ So, I avoid this as best I can. Though at times I do find straddling the line between a good discussion, and having it turn into a debate, can be a fine line. :o So, I'll tread it with care. I'd like to stay around awhile this time. :) Glad you weren't offended! It is often hard to tell on a platform without facial expression or body language to read. I'd rather apologize for something I didn't intend than risk hurting someones feelings. ;) |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 23, 2021 9:17:42 GMT -6
Not exactly the weekend yet, but I have time this morning with no distractions.
Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
So, I see a "week" left in Israel's history. According to Daniel 9:26, Messiah was cut off (killed) after the 7+62 weeks. 70 weeks were decreed, so there is one week (7 years) left. During that 7 years they will be making sacrifices and offerings. In the middle (3.5 years), there will be an end of the sacrifice and offering, an abomination, and eventually an end to the one that made (caused?) the abomination.
Combine that with Matthew 24:15-21, which is where we see the term "Great Tribulation".
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Rev 12:13-17 The woman (Israel) will flee just as they were warned to in Matthew. She will be hidden for 3.5 years, the Great Tribulation - a times, time, and a half time.
I do not call the whole 7 years The Tribulation if I can help it. I'd rather refer to it as Daniel's 70th week. Less confusion that way, in my opinion, because tribulation has been occurring the whole Church Age.
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Post by Natalie on Jul 23, 2021 9:20:01 GMT -6
And debate isn't bad - it's just that some get carried away and it starts being a "I'm right and you are wrong" argument. Keep discussions away from that and most "debate" like what bora speaks of is fine. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 12:33:24 GMT -6
Not exactly the weekend yet, but I have time this morning with no distractions.
Daniel 9:27 (NKJV)
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
So, I see a "week" left in Israel's history. According to Daniel 9:26, Messiah was cut off (killed) after the 7+62 weeks. 70 weeks were decreed, so there is one week (7 years) left. During that 7 years they will be making sacrifices and offerings. In the middle (3.5 years), there will be an end of the sacrifice and offering, an abomination, and eventually an end to the one that made (caused?) the abomination.
Combine that with Matthew 24:15-21, which is where we see the term "Great Tribulation".
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Rev 12:13-17 The woman (Israel) will flee just as they were warned to in Matthew. She will be hidden for 3.5 years, the Great Tribulation - a times, time, and a half time.
I do not call the whole 7 years The Tribulation if I can help it. I'd rather refer to it as Daniel's 70th week. Less confusion that way, in my opinion, because tribulation has been occurring the whole Church Age.
I've a couple questions/comments, but I'll go back and browse through Daniel first, so I don't waste your time and so my questions will have a better scriptural context. Thanks for the response and quotes! |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 13:49:56 GMT -6
boraddict, Natalie, Ok, i'm probably just dense here, but after reviewing Daniel, I see the mention of 7 weeks followed by 62 weeks. Which my math puts it at a total of 69 weeks. So first off, where did I miss the other week mentioned? Then I would like to know where it says that weeks are actually years or something other than weeks? I see "time and "times" also mentioned, but again, how do we say with scriptural certainty that the stated time is actually what we interpret, over what is stated? I probably missed something, but I didn't see a scriptural definition, like it does for Jesus parable, or the candlesticks in Revelation.
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Post by Natalie on Jul 23, 2021 13:58:08 GMT -6
You aren't missing a week...it's still to come. Most of it is described in the book of Revelation. I'll answer the rest soon. |
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servantofthelord
Truth Seeker
Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Posts: 164
Favorite Verse: Anything from John
Favorite Song: Feelin Good!- Nina Simone
Favorite Animal: Blue, my mini schnauzer
Favorite Food: potatoes
Dream Vacation: To actually go on one, never been
Profession: Artist/Poet/Carpenter/Servant
Denomination: Servant of all
I'm From: All over
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Post by servantofthelord on Jul 23, 2021 14:12:31 GMT -6
You aren't missing a week...it's still to come. Most of it is described in the book of Revelation. :) I'll answer the rest soon. Ok, good. so then "Daniels" 70 weeks, is not actually described in "Daniel", But is a collected interpretation of Daniel and other books, meshed into Daniels description, which then forms what people commonly term as Daniels 70 weeks. Is this a correct description? |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 23, 2021 14:32:51 GMT -6
You aren't missing a week...it's still to come. Most of it is described in the book of Revelation. I'll answer the rest soon. Ok, good. so then "Daniels" 70 weeks, is not actually described in "Daniel", But is a collected interpretation of Daniel and other books, meshed into Daniels description, which then forms what people commonly term as Daniels 70 weeks. Is this a correct description? I"m not sure I understand your question -- Daniel's 70 weeks are described in Daniel 9 and point to when Messiah would come - but the book of Revelation, and places like Matthew 24 give us more detail about the last week - the 70th week. |
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