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Post by fitz on Apr 21, 2021 4:31:38 GMT -6
Hi lionofgod , just a quick thought on one thing you said above for the sake of clarification..."(kinda insinuates it may be from lightning or a similar "light/fire", that will both cause the death of our bodies, and the freedom of our souls and spirits. " I see a lot of people on YT that share dreams they have of the rapture, and some talk about their spirits being snatched "out of their bodies" and they ascend into heaven. But the bible says that we who are alive won't die a mortal, fleshly death, but we will be changed. Transformed! Glorified! In an instant, our bodies of flesh become like the same glorified body Jesus received @ the resurrection. And He walked the earth in it for 40 days, and then He ascended into heaven with that same body, which I believe He will always have. So at the rapture, our spirits are not separated from our bodies, rather, our bodies are transformed, glorified, perfected, completed and immortal, and we keep these new bodies for eternity. So we do not leave a dead carcass behind. To the unbelieving onlooker, when we go up, we completely vanish into thin air. GBY |
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Post by mike on Apr 21, 2021 6:48:24 GMT -6
lionofgod , You may have answered it and i just missed it, but several places/posts you mention the second coming of Christ. But it seems from the context that you are meaning that the rapture and second coming are synonymous [one event]. I'm not sure if you saying that we could be raptured -[believers caught up instantly in the blink of an eye] this spring? Or do you mean this refers to when Christ pours out judgment and sets his feet on the Mt of Olives.?? Thanks Disciple4life , He is fairly clear that both will happen at the same time. When He returns, the true believers will be freed from their flesh,(kinda insinuates it may be from lightning or a similar "light/fire", that will both cause the death of our bodies, and the freedom of our souls and spirits. The judgement of the remainder begins then. The believers watch from heaven, then we either come to earth and receive a new "garment", or we remain in spirit with the Jesus' Father God. Once the sinners are judged, they earth is opened and they are cast into the pit with Satan and removed from the sight/existence of God. The earth is made New, with no sin, and those who come back down, start eternity with Jesus, on earth with a new covenant. LOG - since you are considering text not considered to be inspired (Epistle of the Apostles), please advise those of such by citing the text. The writing you are reading could lead you to conclusion that are not biblically doctrinal. I realize you want to investigate other texts, but please realize they are not inspired and some are clear forgeries. |
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 21, 2021 7:05:54 GMT -6
Hi lionofgod , just a quick thought on one thing you said above for the sake of clarification..."(kinda insinuates it may be from lightning or a similar "light/fire", that will both cause the death of our bodies, and the freedom of our souls and spirits. " I see a lot of people on YT that share dreams they have of the rapture, and some talk about their spirits being snatched "out of their bodies" and they ascend into heaven. But the bible says that we who are alive won't die a mortal, fleshly death, but we will be changed. Transformed! Glorified! In an instant, our bodies of flesh become like the same glorified body Jesus received @ the resurrection. And He walked the earth in it for 40 days, and then He ascended into heaven with that same body, which I believe He will always have. So at the rapture, our spirits are not separated from our bodies, rather, our bodies are transformed, glorified, perfected, completed and immortal, and we keep these new bodies for eternity. So we do not leave a dead carcass behind. To the unbelieving onlooker, when we go up, we completely vanish into thin air. GBY I understand your point, there is not enough information in the bible to make a reasonable decision. But if you read Jesus words to the apostles, he clears up much confusion. Especially the apostle John, since all the apostles agree that Jesus took him aside and told him the secret of the kingdom of heaven. However, I do understand as well that the modern Christian only uses the Hebrew bible and no all the apostles writings and Jesus' teachings. 20 And when he had said this unto us, we said to him: In all things hast thou had mercy on us and saved us, and hast revealed all things unto us; but yet would we ask of thee somewhat if thou give us leave. And he said unto us: I know that ye pay heed, and that your heart is well-pleased when ye hear me: now concerning that which ye desire, I will speak good words unto you. 21 For verily I say unto you: Like as my Father hath raised me from the dead, so shall ye also rise (in the flesh, Eth.) and be taken up into the highest heaven, unto the place whereof I have told you from the beginning, unto the place which he who sent me hath prepared for you. And so will I accomplish all dispensations (all grace, Eth.), even I who am unbegotten and yet begotten of mankind, who am without flesh and yet have borne flesh : for to that end am I come, that (gap in Copt.: Eth. continues) ye might rise from the dead in your flesh, in the second birth, even a vesture that shall not decay, together with all them that hope and believe in him that sent me: for so is the will of my Father that I would give unto you, and unto them whom it pleaseth me, the hope of the kingdom. Then said he unto us: Is it the flesh that passeth away, or is it the spirit? We said unto him: The flesh is it that passeth away. Then said he unto us: That which hath fallen shall rise again, and that which was lost shall be found, and that which was weak shall recover, that in these things that are so created the glory of my Father may be revealed. As he hath done unto me, so will I do unto all that believe in me.
26 Verily I say unto you: the flesh shall arise, and the soul, alive, that their defence may come to pass on that day in regard of that that they have done, whether it be good or evil: that there may be a choosing-out of the faithful who have kept the commandments of my Father that sent me; and so shall the judgement be accomplished with strictness. For my Father said unto me: My Son, in the day of judgement thou shalt have no respect for the rich, neither pity for the poor, but according to the sins of every man shalt thou deliver him unto everlasting torment. But unto my beloved that have done the commandments of my Father that sent me will I give the rest of life in the kingdom of my Father which is in heaven, and they shall behold that which he hath given me. And he hath given me authority to do that which I will, and to give that which I have promised and determined to give and grant unto them.
27 For to that end went I down unto the place of Lazarus, and preached unto the righteous and the prophets, that they might come out of the rest which is below and come up into that which is above; and I poured out upon them with my right hand the water (?) (baptism, Eth.) of life and forgiveness and salvation from all evil, as I have done unto you and unto them that believe on me. But if any man believe on me and do not my commandments, although he have confessed my name, he hath no profit therefrom but runneth a vain race: for such will find themselves in perdition and destruction, because they have despised my commandments.
28 But so much the more have I redeemed you, the children of light, from all evil and from the authority of the rulers (archons), and every one that believeth on me by your means. For that which I have promised unto you will I give unto them also, that they may come out of the prison-house and the fetters of the rulers. We answered and said: Lord thou hast given unto us the rest of life and hast given us by wonders, unto the confirmation of faith: wilt thou now preach the same unto us, seeing that thou hast preached it unto the and the prophets? Then said he unto us: Verily I say unto you, all that have believed on me and that believe in him that sent me will I take up into the heaven, unto the place which my Father hath prepared for the elect, and I will give you the kingdom, the chosen kingdom, in rest, and everlasting life.
29 But all they that have offended against my commandments and have taught other doctrine, (perverting) the Scripture and adding thereto, striving after their own glory, and that teach with other words them that believe on me in uprightness, ie they make them fall thereby, shall receive everlasting punishment. We said unto him: Lord, shall there then be teaching by others, diverse from that which thou hast spoken unto us? He said unto us: It must needs be, that the evil and the good may be made manifest; and the judgement shall be manifest upon them that do these things, and according to their works shall they be judged and shall be delivered unto death.
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Post by lionofgod on Apr 21, 2021 7:25:39 GMT -6
Well from the writings I'm reading of the teachings of Jesus post resurrection, He is fairly clear that both will happen at the same time. When He returns, the true believers will be freed from their flesh,(kinda insinuates it may be from lightning or a similar "light/fire", that will both cause the death of our bodies, and the freedom of our souls and spirits. The judgement of the remainder begins then. The believers watch from heaven, then we either come to earth and receive a new "garment", or we remain in spirit with the Jesus' Father God. Once the sinners are judged, they earth is opened and they are cast into the pit with Satan and removed from the sight/existence of God. The earth is made New, with no sin, and those who come back down, start eternity with Jesus, on earth with a new covenant. LOG - since you are considering text not considered to be inspired (Epistle of the Apostles), please advise those of such by citing the text. The writing you are reading could lead you to conclusion that are not biblically doctrinal. I realize you want to investigate other texts, but please realize they are not inspired and some are clear forgeries. Mike, I understand your point, but the only "scripture I give creedance to, is the "confirmed" writings of the apostles. If all 12 agree, and they are the only ones that could know, and all give a similar or same accounting, and they all were widely used By the original "Christian" churches. Which BTW differed in opinion with the Hebrew religion. Odd thing is that of all the texts I have gathered from Jesus writings and the apostles and Mary, they all seem to agree on everything for the most part, even Jesus words in the bible are quoted and explained, but, maybe the majority of his writings and teachings are all wrong and only the selected, edited texts that are in the "bible" are correct. But why would so many people, in so many countries and languages, have the same texts and the same teachings? A worldwide conspiracy to pervert the Jewish religion? Somehow coordinated and believed by the Christians of the days of the apostles? Before technology and networking? Better odds winning the lottery. I look at confirmed texts, dated and translated, authenticated to time and location and language, confirmed again by other texts of the same. All of which are in line with Jesus teachings in the bible, as well as outside it. I'm not sure how it happened, but at some point the "christian" faith became joined to the jewish faith, even though they had separate texts and teachings. The idea that as rational people, we are not allowed to consider evidence and fact, that has not already been given us, is contrary to reason and akin to following the proverbial man of the bridge. How much more evidence is needed than confirmation from all the people Jesus gave the Holy spirit and called his messengers? As Jesus said, If you can't understand worldly things, how can you expect me to speak of the spirit? |
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Post by mike on Apr 21, 2021 7:26:37 GMT -6
lionofgod - please refrain from this as it violates Rule 1 This statement is your opinion and therefore subject to high level of scrutiny. We can discuss other texts but to say the bible is incomplete is not only dangerous ground but will lead you into heresies. Where does adding other text stop? Observe the lines already drawn, there is plenty to study and learn from within the inspired text. EDIT - LOG said "how much more evidence is needed than confirmation from all the people Jesus gave the Holy spirit and called his messengers?" what of the writings of the 500 that saw Him post resurrection? Do we need to hunt the catacombs of history to see if we can find those? Were there any? Why wouldnt they be valid also? Where does it end
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Post by Natalie on Apr 21, 2021 7:58:33 GMT -6
I'm not sure how it happened, but at some point the "christian" faith became joined to the jewish faith, even though they had separate texts and teachings. The Christian faith did come out of the Jewish faith. Jesus was Jewish. He came to the Jewish people. His first disciples were Jewish. He quotes Jewish OT texts. The NT writers quote Jewish texts and deal with Jewish/Christian issues. |
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Post by mike on Apr 21, 2021 8:05:03 GMT -6
I'm not sure how it happened, but at some point the "christian" faith became joined to the jewish faith, even though they had separate texts and teachings. The Christian faith did come out of the Jewish faith. Jesus was Jewish. He came to the Jewish people. His first disciples were Jewish. He quotes Jewish OT texts. The NT writers quote Jewish texts and deal with Jewish/Christian issues. But the religious crowd He dealt with did not believe the Torah! (John 5:46). This is (one reason) He quotes it so much, to show those listening that the heresy of the religious was based on their own tradition and beliefs, not what God said. |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 21, 2021 8:14:20 GMT -6
Exactly! We are studying through Matthew at church right now. We are at the Sermon in the Mount. They (the religious leaders) had made following God such a burden but it wasn't supposed to be.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 21, 2021 8:23:02 GMT -6
lionofgod, I have asked this of others - please site your references for Scripture or for other writings. This is helpful for those who may want to look it up later. Thank you! 
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