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Post by mike on Aug 4, 2017 13:40:28 GMT -6
I can understand where you're coming from. As someone who has experienced some pretty severe health, sin, and family difficulties/tragedies, I'm acquainted with, and sensitive to, suffering in my life and others' lives. One of my greatest struggles in life has been trusting in God's goodness. I know by faith that God is supremely good. I also know that satan's most successful tactic in my life has been to convince me that God is not good and that His Word is not true. God is good - not just in a purely transcendental or philosophical sense - but in a very real, literal sense. He is good, we are not. I think the reality of suffering and evil will remain the greatest mystery until the creation of a new heaven and earth. I can say that personally a few thoughts have helped me reconcile God's goodness with what I see happening in the world: 1. Regarding the Apostle Paul's discourse on objects of wrath/vessels for dishonorable use, I can't reconcile this with pure Calvinism. In my study of Scripture I see both the truth of Calvinism and the truth of Arminianism. God is both completely sovereign and in control of every detail, while He has simultaneously created us in such a way that we really do have free will, make choices, and end up being morally culpable for sin. I write about this in detail here. 2. Many will disagree with this, but I lean towards Conditionalism like Dr. David Reagan. Read my case for it here. If Conditionalism is the correct interpretation of Scripture then most of our concerns over unfairness, evil, and suffering evaporate into thin air. 3. Saying this life is just temporary is more than a cliche. Suffering/disease/death/crying/pain/etc really are just temporary aberrations. Lifting weights is very unpleasant, but when you finish you're stronger and glad you did it. I think history is like that, but on a much greater scale. Gary, I was reading 2 Thes a few days ago and recalled reading your article on Conditionalism. Now I was not taught this in my earlier years. I'm not 100% against as you present a decent case. My question for you though is as I read in 2 Thes i came across verse 9 which says " 8...He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, 10 on the day He comes to be glorified in His saints and regarded with wonder by all who have believed, including you who have believed our testimony" how do you reconcile this verse which seems to me to clearly "debunk" Conditionalism? Would you offer that eternal destruction is translated otherwise as annihilation? Thx |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 16:17:39 GMT -6
When I was saved, I was accepting the Gospel- but at the same time God drew me to Him. I think that everything is both predestined and that everyone has free-will, and that's that.
Besides, what can we say to God? His universe, His rules. He is the one who declared the end from the beginning, and yet He is the one who gives us a fair choice. Can a cup say to his potter, "Why did you make me this way?"? Can a character say to his author, "Why did you do this to my world?"? Of course not. We have no right to ask God anything about why He does this and that.
Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, He is God; we are not.
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Post by watchman35 on Aug 5, 2017 16:25:18 GMT -6
I like this thread. Very thought-provoking. I would like to know the answer to many of the same questions others have already posted. Sometimes I wonder how much more we will already know simply by virtue of being in His physical presence with redeemed bodies and minds? I'm thinking many of these questions posed by fellow watchers may already be answered for us simply by the presence of the fullness of His glory!!!
Part of me would like to ask Him why He permitted so much anguish, pain, suffering and sorrow in my life? Watching a cousin commit suicide right before my eyes. Finding two family members brutally murdered at the hands of another family member, and then dealing with the aftermath of it for years as the family fought over what the sentence for the murderer should be. Living under the curse of rejection and fear for so much of my life as a result of struggling to reconcile why it was that my earthly father, after divorcing my mom and abandoning our family, lived 30 minutes from me for 15 years, yet wanted nothing to do with my life as I grew up. Walking the lonely path as the only member of my Jewish family, to my knowledge, who ever followed Yeshua. Watching a mother whom I loved dearly die of pancreatic cancer after praying for her for 25 years and never seeing any sign that her heart softened towards the Lord--and then, in my overwhelming grief at her death, crying out to God from the depths of my soul as I tried to figure out how it could be possible that the homosexual community loved on and supported my brother in more meaningful ways than my church "family" supported me as I struggled to overcome my deep grief.
And last, or at least I hope it is last, as if I had not had enough pain, anguish, heartache, sorrow and tears for an eternity, watching the Lord lift His hedge of protection off of my life as He did Job--attacked by Lyme disease to where I lost my mental functioning from Lyme in the brain, lost my job, lost my ability to work in any capacity and provide at all for my family, lost my physical health as the Lyme spread throughout my entire body, lost my ability to sleep as I lay awake night after night for months weeping in anguish and begging God to take me home, lost just about all of my life savings, lost the quality of my relationship with my only child for reasons I still honestly could not explain, lost the quality of the relationship in my marriage, and just for the cherry on top, had a wife who at one point in the depths of my despair encouraged me to just die. Oh yeah, forgot to throw in a few worthless friends of Job, including a supposed "pastor", who were just certain I must have done something sinful to bring all this upon me. So yeah, I suppose I would like to understand just why He saw fit to permit such a seemingly disproportionate volume of horrific pain and struggles in my life.
And yet, not unlike an exquisite tapestry, there is a part of me that wonders if He will turn around the ugly side of the tapestry of my life that I have been looking at for the last 57 years and expose a beautiful work of art that He had in mind all along and I could not see. I am believing that the pain and horror of what is described in the preceding two paragraphs will one day soon ultimately be seen in its proper perspective as light, momentary afflictions that were achieving for me a weight of eternal glory beyond all comparison. So now you can maybe understand the zealous and fervent tone that pervades my cry of Maranatha!!!
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 5, 2017 23:40:58 GMT -6
Wow, 35, that's quite an account. I am glad you are able to see as much positive as you do in the Lord's work in your life, considering all you have been through. Many of us have struggled and suffered much, but I doubt very many of us can surpass what you've described, or even match it. When I am face to face with my Redeemer, will I wish I had suffered more, so that my tapestry could be more beautiful? Maybe so! Praying for you right now, brother. I'm sure you can use it. NOT MUCH LONGER NOW!  |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 6, 2017 14:46:01 GMT -6
watchman35...I have not had your tribulations out of my thoughts since I read them. All I could do was lift you to Him in prayer. If there is a pastor out there that might have a message where you may find encouragement, I would have you go to www.calvarycch.org Pastor Jack Hibbs. I just am finishing listening to his message today and all I could do is think of you, perhaps his message of God's Grace might give you strength in these times when you struggle. Go to this site, click on Media and listen to his message from today, 8/6/17 You might have to wait til tonight before they upload todays sermon, even so, I can't believe how timely it is. hugs, from a sister in Christ.. |
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Post by Gary on Aug 7, 2017 10:30:05 GMT -6
I like this thread. Very thought-provoking. I would like to know the answer to many of the same questions others have already posted. Sometimes I wonder how much more we will already know simply by virtue of being in His physical presence with redeemed bodies and minds? I'm thinking many of these questions posed by fellow watchers may already be answered for us simply by the presence of the fullness of His glory!!! Part of me would like to ask Him why He permitted so much anguish, pain, suffering and sorrow in my life? Watching a cousin commit suicide right before my eyes. Finding two family members brutally murdered at the hands of another family member, and then dealing with the aftermath of it for years as the family fought over what the sentence for the murderer should be. Living under the curse of rejection and fear for so much of my life as a result of struggling to reconcile why it was that my earthly father, after divorcing my mom and abandoning our family, lived 30 minutes from me for 15 years, yet wanted nothing to do with my life as I grew up. Walking the lonely path as the only member of my Jewish family, to my knowledge, who ever followed Yeshua. Watching a mother whom I loved dearly die of pancreatic cancer after praying for her for 25 years and never seeing any sign that her heart softened towards the Lord--and then, in my overwhelming grief at her death, crying out to God from the depths of my soul as I tried to figure out how it could be possible that the homosexual community loved on and supported my brother in more meaningful ways than my church "family" supported me as I struggled to overcome my deep grief. And last, or at least I hope it is last, as if I had not had enough pain, anguish, heartache, sorrow and tears for an eternity, watching the Lord lift His hedge of protection off of my life as He did Job--attacked by Lyme disease to where I lost my mental functioning from Lyme in the brain, lost my job, lost my ability to work in any capacity and provide at all for my family, lost my physical health as the Lyme spread throughout my entire body, lost my ability to sleep as I lay awake night after night for months weeping in anguish and begging God to take me home, lost just about all of my life savings, lost the quality of my relationship with my only child for reasons I still honestly could not explain, lost the quality of the relationship in my marriage, and just for the cherry on top, had a wife who at one point in the depths of my despair encouraged me to just die. Oh yeah, forgot to throw in a few worthless friends of Job, including a supposed "pastor", who were just certain I must have done something sinful to bring all this upon me. So yeah, I suppose I would like to understand just why He saw fit to permit such a seemingly disproportionate volume of horrific pain and struggles in my life. And yet, not unlike an exquisite tapestry, there is a part of me that wonders if He will turn around the ugly side of the tapestry of my life that I have been looking at for the last 57 years and expose a beautiful work of art that He had in mind all along and I could not see. I am believing that the pain and horror of what is described in the preceding two paragraphs will one day soon ultimately be seen in its proper perspective as light, momentary afflictions that were achieving for me a weight of eternal glory beyond all comparison. So now you can maybe understand the zealous and fervent tone that pervades my cry of Maranatha!!! Brother, I am so sorry. You have so much on your shoulders. Sometimes there are no good words except to say God is still good. My story is similar to yours. My broken past includes being raised in the midst of divorce, drug-addicted brothers and a brother in jail, sexual abuse (done to me), and even drive by shootings growing up. I developed trauma-induced ADHD and then towards the end of high school I developed chronic breathing and stomach issues with which I still live. I've been through the full range of emotions and doubts, but like you I still cling to Christ. I'm trusting God for something better and I'm reminded of Psalm 22:4-5: God is good, God loves you dearly, and God is planning a perfect future for you that will not disappoint. |
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Post by watchman35 on Aug 7, 2017 17:42:34 GMT -6
I like this thread. Very thought-provoking. I would like to know the answer to many of the same questions others have already posted. Sometimes I wonder how much more we will already know simply by virtue of being in His physical presence with redeemed bodies and minds? I'm thinking many of these questions posed by fellow watchers may already be answered for us simply by the presence of the fullness of His glory!!! Part of me would like to ask Him why He permitted so much anguish, pain, suffering and sorrow in my life? Watching a cousin commit suicide right before my eyes. Finding two family members brutally murdered at the hands of another family member, and then dealing with the aftermath of it for years as the family fought over what the sentence for the murderer should be. Living under the curse of rejection and fear for so much of my life as a result of struggling to reconcile why it was that my earthly father, after divorcing my mom and abandoning our family, lived 30 minutes from me for 15 years, yet wanted nothing to do with my life as I grew up. Walking the lonely path as the only member of my Jewish family, to my knowledge, who ever followed Yeshua. Watching a mother whom I loved dearly die of pancreatic cancer after praying for her for 25 years and never seeing any sign that her heart softened towards the Lord--and then, in my overwhelming grief at her death, crying out to God from the depths of my soul as I tried to figure out how it could be possible that the homosexual community loved on and supported my brother in more meaningful ways than my church "family" supported me as I struggled to overcome my deep grief. And last, or at least I hope it is last, as if I had not had enough pain, anguish, heartache, sorrow and tears for an eternity, watching the Lord lift His hedge of protection off of my life as He did Job--attacked by Lyme disease to where I lost my mental functioning from Lyme in the brain, lost my job, lost my ability to work in any capacity and provide at all for my family, lost my physical health as the Lyme spread throughout my entire body, lost my ability to sleep as I lay awake night after night for months weeping in anguish and begging God to take me home, lost just about all of my life savings, lost the quality of my relationship with my only child for reasons I still honestly could not explain, lost the quality of the relationship in my marriage, and just for the cherry on top, had a wife who at one point in the depths of my despair encouraged me to just die. Oh yeah, forgot to throw in a few worthless friends of Job, including a supposed "pastor", who were just certain I must have done something sinful to bring all this upon me. So yeah, I suppose I would like to understand just why He saw fit to permit such a seemingly disproportionate volume of horrific pain and struggles in my life. And yet, not unlike an exquisite tapestry, there is a part of me that wonders if He will turn around the ugly side of the tapestry of my life that I have been looking at for the last 57 years and expose a beautiful work of art that He had in mind all along and I could not see. I am believing that the pain and horror of what is described in the preceding two paragraphs will one day soon ultimately be seen in its proper perspective as light, momentary afflictions that were achieving for me a weight of eternal glory beyond all comparison. So now you can maybe understand the zealous and fervent tone that pervades my cry of Maranatha!!! Brother, I am so sorry. You have so much on your shoulders. Sometimes there are no good words except to say God is still good. My story is similar to yours. My broken past includes being raised in the midst of divorce, drug-addicted brothers and a brother in jail, sexual abuse (done to me), and even drive by shootings growing up. I developed trauma-induced ADHD and then towards the end of high school I developed chronic breathing and stomach issues with which I still live. I've been through the full range of emotions and doubts, but like you I still cling to Christ. I'm trusting God for something better and I'm reminded of Psalm 22:4-5: God is good, God loves you dearly, and God is planning a perfect future for you that will not disappoint. Very , very sorry for the pain and sorrow in your life. The song you shared is powerful. Most believers can relate, at least at a theoretical level, to the anguish of Job. Far, far fewer have by the circumstances of our life begun to truly taste the depth of raw emotion contained in those words as Job uttered them, when the hedge is down, and the enemy has ravaged your entire life, and you cannot find the reason why, and you cannot find the face of Your God though you look for Him, and yet somehow by the grace of God, you muster from the depths of your soul the words of Job, "Though You slay me, yet will I trust You." Quite candidly, I never, ever, in a million years aspired to be part of the few, but once there, where else could I turn??? You have the words of eternal life, Yeshua. |
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Post by Gary on Aug 8, 2017 12:29:25 GMT -6
Amen, amen, and amen. Beautifully said. And the funny thing is - I'm not sure you or I would have it any other way in retrospect. I like what John Piper said at towards the end of this video. These wounds are creating a peculiar glory into eternity. God is redeeming this and it will be worth it.
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Post by watchman35 on Aug 8, 2017 17:00:23 GMT -6
Amen, amen, and amen. Beautifully said. And the funny thing is - I'm not sure you or I would have it any other way in retrospect. I like what John Piper said at towards the end of this video. These wounds are creating a peculiar glory into eternity. God is redeeming this and it will be worth it. OK. My turn to share a song with you. The last five words of your previous post brought to mind this song, which I spent more than one night singing out loud through the tears and anguish as I sought The Lord for comfort or at least a few hours of refuge in sleep. I so get why people who do not know the Lord often choose to end their lives, mistakenly thinking it will stop the pain and they will either cease to exist or never possibly find themselves in a worse condition no matter what "the other side" might hold. When you face seemingly intolerable pain, physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and then add the dimension of having no anchor of hope in Yeshua, I so get it. Disclaimer: don't know much about the artist Rita Springer and where she is theologically, so don't want this to be misinterpreted by anyone as any sort of endorsement. Not in a position to have an impression one way or the other, but I am always sensitive to the possibility that others might perceive an implied "endorsement" when posting a song and thereby potentially open themselves to something not good. Each of us has the responsibility to test...test...test everything. For me it is about the lyrics of the song. |
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Post by whatif on Aug 9, 2017 0:00:52 GMT -6
I'm deeply moved by your post, watchman35, and I will be praying for you and for all of us as we wait for the day when He will wipe every tear from our eyes. II Corinthians 1:3-4 says that our God is the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort and that He comforts us in all our troubles so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God.
May the Lord bless you, protect you, heal you, strengthen you, guide you, and comfort you in everything you face in this world.
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