By all means – speak up and show me any errors of understanding I may have…..
You may wish to check out my “especially” thread – not sure which sub-directory it is under…. But the gist of the matter is we DO NOT KNOW God and his overall plan. We only know what he has revealed to us so far. Which may or may not change in the future. Until Apostle Paul, the Bible contained nothing about GRACE ALONE – it might have been implied and even hinted at; but nothing spelled out like the Apostle Paul did for us. Will there be more revealed in the future?
So when we have passages like 1Timothy 4:10 – “That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.”
We have to wonder – just what does that mean – “Savior of All People”….
Yes, yes some want to interpret to mean that God provided a way for all people to be saved; but we must accepted it. Sorry, I believe that wrong interpretation – it does not say COULD be the Savior – BUT is the Savior.
Can you answer it? I cannot definitely answer it either – but it possibly hints to another “chance”...........
Believe me I in no way minimize the Cross – to me It is everything – For Jesus Christ (the Anointed Son of God) accomplished EVERYTHING that needs to be accomplished to restore my fellowship with God. BTW … it is death, burial, and resurrection – that accomplished everything … not just the cross.
Second – my comments were addressing the items brought out in the BOOK – in which he explained how he arrived at his conclusions…. Some of those conclusions make logical sense to me. Even Gary’s Conditionalism (from what I have read) makes sense. I can prove nothing about either subject, nor do I suspect I need to – since I am saved because my belief in Jesus Christ and what He did for me --- not because I read or have not read some Biblical scholar’s book.
IF you hear me claiming there is another way to God (other going through Jesus Christ) – then by all means correct me.
If you hear me speculate – that such and such view or theory has logical merit – and you have serious doubts – by all means bring it to light.
So when you say "I truly see your above comments as viewing from an earthly (and Godless) perspective"
I have to ask -- really -- in what way?
Was it a "godless" perspective to quote something from the book -- and agree that there is logical merit to what was said?
Sounds like we both agree IT IS ALL GOD and NONE of US -- when it comes to salvation?
What is wrong -- wondering if God will have two (or more) types of punishments when it comes to the "Joe Average Unbeliever" and "Mega Evil Unbeliever"?
I fall on the side -- I just do not know --- but based simply off the 1 Timothy verse -- I can conceive that it is possible they will be different.
Does that mean I go around spreading a theory I have that may or may not pan out?
HECK NO -- Every unbeliever will hear my testimony and why I think they should turn their life over to Jesus Christ!
First KJS let me say that I went back a re-read my post and apologize as I didnt mean the "Godless" comment to say that specifically as "you were" rather when/if I think that way I remove God from the equation and it makes sense to me. I do believe that is how the unbelieving and (perhaps misguided) world sees eternity. That God would be "fair" based on how they live their lives absent the saving knowledge of Christ. My apologies for that as a newbie on this forum
I am new to the forum and have not seen the "especially" thread but will look for it. I am open to hearing other perspectives BUT am quite cautious as there are many false doctrines in the Christian world (not accusing) and I cant allow my faith to become shipwrecked. In your note above you say we "<i>DO NOT KNOW God and his overall plan</i>". Again not having read your thread, i do not know the context, but on the surface of that statement alone I would have to disagree. We know exactly what we need to know about God, His (unmerited) love for us. He has shown this as well as His redemptive plan throughout the entire history of mankind as revealed (to us) in His word. His revelations to Abraham, Noah, Moses, the prophets, the apostles, Paul and so on were quite spectacle. I marvel at some passage when I read them. I put myself in their shoes and realize I would likely soil myself if a burning bush spoke to me, or Gabriel appeared delivering a message! I dont think that his message changes in the future. What we may find out in the future about what he has already told us may change, for example Rev 12 and the likelihood of the upcoming stellar alignment which (I believe) fulfills prophecy.
Do you really not see God's grace all throughout the OT? The people of Israel committed acts of harlotry, idolatry and the like for centuries and every time they repented, Gods grace was available. Not absent consequence for their transgression, but nonetheless, He showed mercy and grace.
Your take on Christ being the Savior of all people is an interesting turn and I do believe He is and yes I believe each and every person is confronted with that truth and must make a decision or choice. Again not having read other commentary or threads yet perhaps my view is a bit limited on this (perhaps not-IDK). Paul also tells us in Romans 1:18-23 "no excuses". God reveals himself to all, each person in some way whether by me or you or nature, or divinely, or some other means He reaches out. Each and every one of us has to respond to the offer. We can accept the gift or reject it. God knows our decision before we make it, but we still have to make that decision regardless.
<i>BTW … it is death, burial, and resurrection – that accomplished everything … not just the cross.</i> Totally agree, the cross was the atonement for all which is what my comment was geared towards. Again didnt mean for that to sound as if you didnt think that...I speak with mostly unbelievers and they simply don't believe this, so my approach was quite off as I was in that mindset.
Lastly ... I know a man about 25 yrs my senior who says "I read the bible once every year" who has a similar take. He believes that God visited him in a succession of dreams and revealed to him His plan. This person says his dream(s) were that all people were as the sand on the beach and God said to him "who owns the sand, Me or the enemy?" Then God told him "do you really think I will let him have most of the sand?" Then this person said to me read the bible as though you were God, from His vantage point with that understanding, and you'll be surprised. I must admit this first struck me as heresy. Why? I am one who (and you may be as well) says "I dont trust anyone elses vision, dreams or revelations to live my life by or base my faith on." Dreams, visions and the like are nice and may mean something to that person but if they arent in line with scripture, then theres and issue. I dont see that being scriptural (at least yet) but it is a good point. Why would God want/allow 90% (or whatever high percentage) of the human race to perish? I really dont think He does "want" that. However I often go back to a question I cant figure out "why did He (originally) pick the Jews?" Why not some other race. Of course I'd end up with the same question if He did, LOL.
I think i'm rambling now....Mike
