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Post by kjs on Jul 17, 2017 8:02:48 GMT -6
Hi Mike:
I think we are on the same page ... simply phrasing things differently.
For example -- No we do not know God's full Plan
However, we do have some revelations in the scripture (that based on some interpretations) we do have a better grasp of the direction it is going.
For example the Apostle Paul -- made many revelations to us -- that were never revealed to anyone in the Old Testament.
I fall on the side -- that there MAY BE more revelations coming our way (Can I prove that -- NOPE)
But I do find HINTS that seem to suggest -- that what has been reveled so far -- is only the TIP of the Ice Berg -- so to speak.
I am just like everyone else -- learning as I go -- sometimes I make mistakes -- and If I do I am thankful someone brings it to my attention!
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Post by mike on Jul 17, 2017 9:13:05 GMT -6
very possible, look at how the Rev 12 sign "appeared" to us. I also have recently reviewing information on the whole Nephilim situation. We have very little biblical text but we know (biblically) they existed. There have been bones discovered, as well as things like armor, weapons, beds etc. which support the existance. The speculation aspect is where I think God can or may have revealed more. If you know what i mean (there may be a thread on that topic that i havent found yet either)
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Post by mike on Jul 17, 2017 9:17:30 GMT -6
I did come up with another question, which I dont need answered, just one of those things that makes me say "hmm?"
Matt 25:41(b) "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Was the everlasting fire already present prior to the rebellion? If yes did Lucifer and the angels realize or know it was there and that choice anyway?
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Post by delo63 on Jul 17, 2017 9:27:31 GMT -6
my question is does God love Lucifer?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 9:57:29 GMT -6
God loves all of his creations. God does not/would not 'dupe' nor enjoy 'imparting sentence' to His creations. It is not in HIm. He is TRUTH. And the TRUTH is Love....Real love. If anyone of free will chooses to deceive themselves or others - the truth is not in them. God loves his enemies - He says that he sends the rains on both the good and the wicked. What happened with Lucifer is beyond our understanding...it is very deep. Once, in anger, I cried out that s____ deserved to go to ____ for all the hurt he caused in the world. I was immediately reprimanded sternly by the Lord, he told me to keep my mouth shut for I did not know what all went down nor the depth of the relationship they had. I got the message real quick. That is something we should not attempt to know.
If he let 'us' know that there is a hell - I'm sure all the angels were afforded the same knowledge.
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Post by mike on Jul 18, 2017 12:07:08 GMT -6
ok now i actually have a legit question that i would like to have answered now  Maybe someone here has a sound explanation...I believe God is truly sovereign and in control and is not caught off guard by anything. He knows the end from the beginning and beginning from the end. Right?? Anyone not agree with that? Here's my question...if God knows all, why does he get angry, upset? Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Deut 3:26 "But the LORD was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the LORD said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter." and one of my favorites: Exodus 32 "9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. 11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever. 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Not only was He angry here but the text (seems to) indicate(s) he changed His mind |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 13:20:28 GMT -6
Mike,
Ok - Here I go! LOL
God is a HOLY God. He is the maker and gets to call ALL the shots. That is why we see the verse
Romans 9:19
One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”g 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction?
I feel like I see that you are at the point of conviction or submission. You have conviction over what you feel like you know(have control over) but might be struggling with submission(giving all control over to God). I by no means am passing judgment. I feel like I am recognizing something I dealt with. Satan likes to tell us that God is tough, mean, and unreasonable. It is what he tempted Eve with.... kinda "Why won't he let you be like him(God)?" The answer is because he said so and He is God. We grow up in this world that teaches us to climb to the top, it's all about what you can do for yourself, don't let anyone stop you from getting what you want, etc. ...... survival of the fittest. But it is an unregenerate world that doesn't want to submit to anyone! It is Satan's domain.
When we become saved - we submit. Because we were lost and have been found by the only one WORTH being submissive to! Someone worthy of our Submission and Loyalty. The only one who REALLY loves us unconditionally! Our view of God therefore changes. Instead of seeing God as a hot-head, making mistakes, and easily changing his mind on a whim - striking people dead on demand, we now see a HOLY God, angry with sin(rebellion), firm in his stands, and long suffering in patience because he wants only good for us!
Yes, he repented that he had made man - they had perverted 'themselves'. It saddened him greatly. Wrath/Wroth - he is Holy - so much that he removed himself to the third heaven upon Adam/Eve's sin so that they wouldn't be consumed by his Holy presence!
He loves everyone and he wants you for an eternity with Him - don't let Satan whisper anything other than that. He's good at it, he's been doing it for years. He whispered it to me and I bought the lie "God wants you to be happy! He'd be mean to withhold happiness from you and then make you live 70 unhappy years and then you'd die? No, God loves you, so he wants you to be happy." WRONG - Satan neglected to tell me that I'd go to Hell, thinking like that on my own. He likes to make you think God's mean. That's how he convinces religions and organizations and the like...he tells them that God is mean and how they can keep him happy.... Rules and traditions....LIES.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 18, 2017 22:00:04 GMT -6
Good assessment, Truthseeker.
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Post by mike on Jul 19, 2017 6:45:53 GMT -6
Truthseeker, I do like your explanation and I do agree that there are times I do not do that which i know (or think) i should do - hence submission. Not that it excuses any decision or behavior that is made with or through our own understanding, but i think if we're honest with ourselves and each other, we all are guilty of this from time to time. Personally speaking its recognizing this, and being aware the next time making the right choice, etc. In addition, not condemning oneself (which I do often enough) but that recognition and at times confessing to others that I blew it and didnt follow God's lead in a situation helps me move forward... But your response doesnt really address my question, or at least i dont think so. I am not questioning these scriptures as they apply to me, but in general. Perhaps I just dont (properly) understand your reply. Perhaps my question for the Lord wasnt phrased very well. My question was really geared in the context i asked it regarding those specific examples (passages). Take the Exodus quote - He knew the Israelites would create the golden calf and bow to it long before they made it, yet He was still angry, in fact angry enough to say He'd wipe them all out and start over with Moses. Was He testing Moses? And was this illustrated and immortalized for our benefit? I think Moses provided the best response as he not only reminded the Lord of His work bringing them out of Egypt but also reminded Him of His promise to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, yet remained humble. I know that I woulda messed this one up!! I woulda agreed with the Lord and said "Youre right, they annoy me too, start over" I mean really who in their right mind would tell God what to do when He's angry?! Not me! Maybe its just a rhetorical question. I mean we are created in his image right? We experience laughter, joy, pain, anger, sadness, happiness, etc. then He would too. Maybe its just more about His reaction to a situation. How about this for an illistratrion - At the beach there is a 4th of July parade for kids where they march up and down a small stretch of sand. At the end of this, the organizers provide the kids with some ice cream. When my 11 yr old asked me if she could have one i said yes but pick one and that we needed to have lunch soon. a few minutes later what do i see her do? YUP, a second (different) ice cream in her hand (and mouth!). My reaction was anger. However the difference (like this really, actually compares, LOL) with comparing my example to the Exodus one is I didnt know she would do that, so my reaction was anger. God knew they would rebel, creating the golden calf, yet He was angry. Make sense? In any event, if I actually remember this when time comes, i will ask. But as I've said in other posts, I think the overwhelming joy, love, peace of actually (physically) being in His presence will be my only focus for a very long time and this will likely no longer be a question I have. |
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Post by mike on Jul 19, 2017 7:03:44 GMT -6
One more thing Truthseeker...I agree with you that Satan would whisper "God is a mean hothead, you'll never please Him" but that wasnt the perspective I was asking from. My life journey has not always been pleasing to Him, this I am aware of. I have experienced His MERCY & GRACE and realize that there is no way I can earn, deserve or work for it. In fact my experience has been quite the opposite! I've worked iniquity far more than I would have ever desired to, yet through it all He remained faithful to me! Excuse my french but WHAT THE #$%&!!! What for?! I deserve none of it, in fact I know what I deserve! Everyday I wake up thinking "I DO NOT deserve YOU being good to me" yet He still is. Everyday I think "why did you leave Heaven, to die for me?!" While I know it is His love, I still think about it, and I do accept it. I am beyond thankful for it. This in itself amazes me, humbles me, motivates me. And although I desire to please, serve and honor Him because He loves me without condition, I still fail daily, yet He continues to be faithful even when I am not. This is truly amazing (to me). I (we) have earned none of it, yet He still sees past it all. I want for all those I speak to/with to experience this life changing Love that only true believers do or can.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 8:02:20 GMT -6
Love this! "Take the Exodus quote - He knew the Israelites would create the golden calf and bow to it long before they made it, yet He was still angry, in fact angry enough to say He'd wipe them all out and start over with Moses. Was He testing Moses? And was this illustrated and immortalized for our benefit? I think Moses provided the best response as he not only reminded the Lord of His work bringing them out of Egypt but also reminded Him of His promise to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, yet remained humble. I know that I woulda messed this one up!! I woulda agreed with the Lord and said "Youre right, they annoy me too, start over" I mean really who in their right mind would tell God what to do when He's angry?! Not me! " I have a friend and we have had this conversation before because this is exactly how she would respond! Lol I hope I understand better now(?). I think it still goes to the free will. We have crooked paths and God desires to make them straight. He is holy and would wish we would make good decisions from beginning to end. But unbelievers are like impetuous, rebellious children. Your daughter asked you for an ice cream cone and you were already letting her splurge by having one before lunch, which isn't ideal but you were taking joy in the moment with her. If you stopped at that moment and thought..., i'm sure you know that she would keep eating them as long as you would let her. She was not capable of making good decisions yet. You became angry because you were going to have to deal with the behavior of a sugared up kid not wanting Lunch, because she was too full. you would have to deal with that fallout. And the audacity that she would've gone ahead and gotten a second one after you told her only one! Yep, I have three. I've learned most about God from having children! He gave us free will and knows what we can do with an unregenerate heart or an immature heart, not thinking of any kind of a consequence to our mind, body, or soul. So he uses the Scriptures as examples, teaching us the heart of God, and show us outcomes. I've often said that I know now why God Blessed the Jews so and made so many promises to them. He used them as an example to the world to show the world his heart. He also had to keep the people in line so that he could have Jesus eventually come from a people who were not wicked. He had to keep them in line all the time! He's a wonderful God and he will recompense them for using them in that fashion. God has so many things going on with lessons, repercussions, fulfilling prophecy, salvation of man, only he can get all that going on in the same minute! |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 19, 2017 21:02:42 GMT -6
I have family members who have outwardly rejected God ostensibly on the pretense that God is not fair to hold people to a standard they cannot obtain, and to make it so that some will not be saved, since, in the understanding of my family members, those people do not have a choice, but are chosen to damnation.
I have to keep chalking that up to one of those things we simply cannot easily answer, and cannot change, so we must concentrate on what we know is true, and what God would have us to do.
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Post by kjs on Jul 20, 2017 7:35:02 GMT -6
Sounds like these Family members have a warped view of Calvinism. In what denomination were they raised?
Some denominations do teach a modified version of “works salvation” and are very legalistic and basically have a check-list of what has to be done to be a “True Christian”. These same denominations also tend to have an Arrogance view of anyone outside their congregation; saying only their inner group is saved and everyone outside it as condemned.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 20, 2017 9:57:10 GMT -6
They were raised as independent Baptists.
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Post by kjs on Jul 20, 2017 11:28:43 GMT -6
Well Romans 9 can be twisted so that it is interpreted that God intentionally hardens the heart so that a person becomes condemned.
BUT to arrive at the conclusion – one must also insist that all individuals will naturally and willing choose God – if they are given a “fair chance” – in other words, they believe the fable that some people are naturally good and will automatically do right.
Since, Paul already dismissed that idea in Romans 3 (there is none who do right….)
According to Jesus – those who do not believe are condemned already….
Basically, that means – we (all humans) come into this world condemned – there is no hope for us outside what the Gospel tells us about.
The false idea – that we (all humans) get to choose between Right and Wrong – is a false premises.
The Bible clearly states – no one even desires God – without God first drawing one too him.
In other words, we come into this world condemned and we exit this world condemned – unless we respond to the Gospel (and even me using the term respond may be too strong of a word – for we DO NOTHING).
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