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Post by bruce on Jun 1, 2020 10:50:09 GMT -6
Yesterday I was in the park in the afternoon as the sun started to get lower in the sky and I was starting to realize that a Pentecost rapture seemed to be less and less likely this year. I know some think there's another day later this week that could be the REAL Pentecost, and maybe so, but I suddenly had a thought about feast days in general and their connection to the rapture which I wanted to share and see if anyone has any thoughts about it.
It occurred to me that when Jesus fulfilled the first three feasts, there was a temple and Jews in Jerusalem who were acting out the rituals prescribed for them in the Torah. When the Holy Spirit came down on Pentecost 50 days after Jesus' resurrection the Temple was still there and Jews were gathering in Jerusalem according to the command in the Torah, hence the miracle of the different languages.
What about today? There are certainly Jews in Jerusalem, but there is no Temple, and the Judaism of today is not in a position to carry out all of the commands of the Torah as they were able to two thousand years ago when Jesus fulfilled the first three feasts and the Holy Spirit descended on the fourth feast. The pilgrimage to the Jerusalem Temple, the sacrifices, the wave offerings, etc., those were happening then but not now.
So I started to wonder, would God actually fulfill a feast day with an event like the rapture when the associated Old Testament rituals are not ongoing? It would seem to make more sense to fulfill the feasts in conjunction with the rituals, like He did 2000 years ago. If this is the case, then it would seem that the rapture would not fulfill any feast. That's not to say it couldn't happen on a feast day, but it is unlikely to occur on a feast day as Jews are conducting their prescribed rituals since they don't have a Temple and probably won't get one until after we are gone.
Specifically for Pentecost, as a harvest festival, if the harvest is not being offered at the Temple, then how is the rapture supposed to fulfill the ritual?
I do believe that the day of the rapture will be significant, and it could be a feast day, but I am wondering if final fulfillments of feast days maybe need to occur when the associated Levitical rituals are in progress. And since the Church was proclaimed a "mystery" by Paul, maybe our rapture exit will also be unknown in advance, even if the day turns out to be very significant in retrospect.
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Post by bradwatsonmiami on Jun 1, 2020 12:33:48 GMT -6
Bruce: There is no literal rapture - the term is NOT even in the Bible. The British minister who coined it first said it was going to happen in 1830, then 1850, etc. The Revelation 20:4 states that the returned "Christ rules for a 1,000 years". I Thes 4:17 is a prophecy of the Christ returning in a time of airplanes.
Only Evangelicals believe in the rapture - none of the other Christians denominations do.
We are experiencing The Apocalypse/Revelation (not the 'end of the world') when the Christ returns, produces the "book/scroll sealed with 7 seals" (Rev 5:1) and then 'the shit hits the fan'! "Plague, locusts, economic collapse, civil unrest, etc."
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Post by Natalie on Jun 1, 2020 12:59:07 GMT -6
bradwatsonmiami , Going to have to ask you to put them brakes on a minute and go read our forum rules. I'll even post rule 1 for you here: 1. No debating core doctrines of the Christian faith. If you are participating here you should be a committed Believer. Seekers and non-Christians are more than welcome also, but this is a forum that honors God's Word and therefore arguments against His Word aren't for this forum... questions are welcome though! For purposes of this forum, "core doctrines" are considered to be the historic tenets of Christianity: One self-existent God, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the virgin birth, the full deity of Christ, the substitutionary atonement, the literal and physical resurrection of Christ, salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, a literal and future bodily resurrection of the dead, and a historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture. Premillennialism, a literal rapture of the Church to Heaven, and a literal/historical interpretation of Genesis 1-11 are also considered core doctrines.
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Post by nana on Jun 1, 2020 15:23:15 GMT -6
Yesterday I was in the park in the afternoon as the sun started to get lower in the sky and I was starting to realize that a Pentecost rapture seemed to be less and less likely this year. I know some think there's another day later this week that could be the REAL Pentecost, and maybe so, but I suddenly had a thought about feast days in general and their connection to the rapture which I wanted to share and see if anyone has any thoughts about it. It occurred to me that when Jesus fulfilled the first three feasts, there was a temple and Jews in Jerusalem who were acting out the rituals prescribed for them in the Torah. When the Holy Spirit came down on Pentecost 50 days after Jesus' resurrection the Temple was still there and Jews were gathering in Jerusalem according to the command in the Torah, hence the miracle of the different languages. What about today? There are certainly Jews in Jerusalem, but there is no Temple, and the Judaism of today is not in a position to carry out all of the commands of the Torah as they were able to two thousand years ago when Jesus fulfilled the first three feasts and the Holy Spirit descended on the fourth feast. The pilgrimage to the Jerusalem Temple, the sacrifices, the wave offerings, etc., those were happening then but not now. So I started to wonder, would God actually fulfill a feast day with an event like the rapture when the associated Old Testament rituals are not ongoing? It would seem to make more sense to fulfill the feasts in conjunction with the rituals, like He did 2000 years ago. If this is the case, then it would seem that the rapture would not fulfill any feast. That's not to say it couldn't happen on a feast day, but it is unlikely to occur on a feast day as Jews are conducting their prescribed rituals since they don't have a Temple and probably won't get one until after we are gone. Specifically for Pentecost, as a harvest festival, if the harvest is not being offered at the Temple, then how is the rapture supposed to fulfill the ritual? I do believe that the day of the rapture will be significant, and it could be a feast day, but I am wondering if final fulfillments of feast days maybe need to occur when the associated Levitical rituals are in progress. And since the Church was proclaimed a "mystery" by Paul, maybe our rapture exit will also be unknown in advance, even if the day turns out to be very significant in retrospect. I am on high watch from now until Trumpets. |
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Post by disciple4life on Jun 5, 2020 3:01:36 GMT -6
nana, Why a feast day? Several very compelling reasons from scripture and history/logic. 1. Christ gave very specific clues that the disciples understood as well as the audience/ First Christians and this pointed clearly to a feast. 2. Paul was writing to a mixed Jewish/Gentile audience in Corinth and explicitly linked the rapture with a feast- the last trumpet. 3. The clues of John in Revelation and Christ in Matthew and Paul all allign and point to the exact same feast- specifically- feast of Trumpets. Paul said that the feasts are a "shadow of things to come" and 4. The word for feasts is 'Moadim' or Appointed times and the word is also translated as "rehearsal"- as for a play, or a wedding. 5. Paul also said to Christians that we are not children of the night/ darkness but children of the day "so that day will not surprise you like a thief (in the night) - an instantly-recognizable reference to the Captain of the Temple guard. 6. The Time of Jacob's trouble (7 yr Tribulation) is for the Jews and Christ provokes them to jealousy when He comes on the day they believe the resurrection happens and He takes a Gentile bride, on the day of the Wedding of the Messiah- aka Feast of Trumpets- also means Day of Shouting [ Bridegroom came with a shout] 7. Zechariah says that at the Millennium all nations of the earth will celebrate Feast of Booths/ Sukkot so this means that we only have 2 of the 3 "Fall Feasts" left to be fulfilled. 8. There is very strong evidence from scripture, Hebrew culture and astronomy that Christ was born at Feast of booths - The beginning of Christ's 1st Advent and end of 2nd Advent- just like bookends. 😉👍😮 Disciple4Life
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Post by disciple4life on Jun 6, 2020 14:48:26 GMT -6
bruce said "What about today? There are certainly Jews in Jerusalem, but there is no Temple, and the Judaism of today is not in a position to carry out all of the commands of the Torah as they were able to two thousand years ago when Jesus fulfilled the first three feasts and the Holy Spirit descended on the fourth feast. The pilgrimage to the Jerusalem Temple, the sacrifices, the wave offerings, etc., those were happening then but not now. So I started to wonder, would God actually fulfill a feast day with an event like the rapture when the associated Old Testament rituals are not ongoing? It would seem to make more sense to fulfill the feasts in conjunction with the rituals, like He did 2000 years ago. If this is the case, then it would seem that the rapture would not fulfill any feast." bruce , - I sort of see your point, - but here is another point that I think can bring some clarity. The Feasts are not about the rituals - The Feasts are all signs- Appointed times and "rehearsal" - practice for the main event to come.
When God gave the feasts in the Torah as Appointed times - and the Sabbath - they are for all eternity - and it even states this explicitly - There is no condition that stipulates the feasts are in effect as long as the Temple is in place or the sacrifices are offered.
Passover is the foreshadow of the crucifixion itself - when the spotless lamb was slain for us - so the death penalty would pass over us, and Christ was pierced and broken and wrapped in linen cloth and hidden away, and a ransom was paid.
All these elements are in the Passover today celebrated by millions of Jews around the world - there are 3 pieces of Matso - which are pierced and broken, and the middle one - Jesus- the second person of the trinity is wrapped in a cloth and hidden away and a ransom is paid. Their eyes are blinded temporarily.
When God instituted the feasts, He knew that Christ would fulfill the feasts and that He - the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the Week - Wednesday - and cause the sacrifices and oblations to cease - Passover earthquake and supernatural eclipse - not a normal solar or lunar eclipse.
But Passover and Pentecost and all the other feasts continued in the NT and Paul even celebrated them - without the sacrifices.
The Feasts are "Appointed Times" and this is why Paul said that Christians would not be surprised - [not an iota of scripture anywhere to support the notion of imminent/ surprise rapture] - and this is why Christ's ministry began at a wedding - and the parable of the ten bridesmaids is a rapture story, and he said that the five bridesmaids were foolish (some translations say wicked) "because they did not know the hour" *** but the wise ones did -- they were not caught off guard - they knew the time the Bridegroom was coming.
How totally ludicrous to think that the 5 bridesmaid all struggled to pull a ginormous ox cart of oil - waiting for weeks - without knowing the time- and just kept telling each other - "You know, Ashley, Caitlyn, - It could be this month, or maybe this week - but No One Knows - we just have to be ready with this huge cart of 40 gallons of lamp oil."
It's laughable because they knew - but the foolish ones did not, and in the exact same way it was absurd to think they didn't know when the groom was coming - it's equally absurd to think that we won't know - Christ and Paul told us when the rapture will be. The Ones who will be surprised - are unbelievers- Children of Darkness.
God has ordained over thousands and thousands of years - that the Jews believe that the Great resurrection happens at Rosh Hoshanah - Feast of Trumpets. This feast - "Yom Teruah" is literally translated as Day of Shouting and it has many themes - One of the many themes for this day is "The Coronation of the King" and the "Wedding of the Messiah", as well as the day that the door of Heaven is opened.
Christ comes to take his Gentile Bride - and she is literally lifted up and carried away into the wedding chamber [heaven] with a Shout.
The Great resurrection happens on the exact day, that tens of millions of Jews everywhere believe it will happen - on the Feast that "No one Knows the Day or Hour" - because it is often cloudy or rainy and the sliver of the new moon is not sighted on the first day of Tishrei- the civil new Year, and when it is sighted by two witnesses in Jerusalem, then the trumpets are blasted with long and short staccato blasts - 99 times, and then there is the "Last Trumpet" which is the 100th blast- Tekia Gadolah - and it is held as long as the trumpeter has breath.
Just as the first 4 Feasts are inseparably linked with Christ's first Advent, the Last 3 Fall feasts are inseparably linked with his Second Advent, and we also know that the last feast of the 7 is written clearly in Zechariah that this will be celebrated in the Millennium by all the nations of the earth.
What's left Only 2 - Feast of Trumpets, and Day of Atonement. and the very next one that has not been fulfilled is Feast of Trumpets -
Like Paul Watchman Dawson noted - the Sea of Galilee was so full, that they had to open the dam - sending millions of gallons of water out into the valley - and this symbolizes water breaking. 
It is my personal opinion - that everyone, everywhere all across the globe will hear the trumpet. Paul said the trumpet will sound - and the trumpet that blasted on Mt Sinai was very loud, and it was literal and so there's nothing in scripture that says only believers will hear the trumpet blast at the rapture - But it's not a point i argue about.
I also am of the opinion that there will be a massive massive earthquake - and this will magnify the chaos and terror of those left behind. Joel also connects a huge earthquake with the Day of the Lord, - which is the second coming.
Blessings, my dear brothers and sisters.
Disciple4life
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Post by bruce on Jun 10, 2020 7:01:34 GMT -6
The Feasts are not about the rituals - The Feasts are all signs- Appointed times and "rehearsal" - practice for the main event to come.
When God gave the feasts in the Torah as Appointed times - and the Sabbath - they are for all eternity - and it even states this explicitly - There is no condition that stipulates the feasts are in effect as long as the Temple is in place or the sacrifices are offered.
Disciple4life, I see your point. It was just something that had occurred to me. Jesus is said to have been crucified when the lambs were being slaughtered which was one of the rituals that pointed to Him. It got me thinking about whether these rituals could point to future events if they aren't actually happening. Maybe the fact that they have happened in the past or that Jews today keep these feasts in a different way is enough. Also, as you point out, these are appointed times for all time. As for the Feast of Trumpets, I do not dispute the elements of that feast that seem to point to a rapture. I used to believe that it was the most likely time, and I still do believe the rapture could happen on that day. It's just that over the years I have seen how trumpets are used on lots of different feasts and sometimes no feast at all (see Numbers 10), and how other feasts also have elements that seem to suggest a rapture as well. If Paul indeed meant for his hearers to understand the trumpet/shouting references to be a Feast of Trumpets reference, well that would settle the matter, but I am not 100% certain that that was Paul's intention. I'll be rooting for a non-feast rapture for the rest of the summer, but if we're here in September, I'll be rooting for a FoT rapture ;-) |
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Post by mike on Jun 10, 2020 7:06:44 GMT -6
bruce D4L is a good resource to discuss the feast days as his insight is quite deep  I would also recommend this recent video by Nelson Walters explaining the feast may be fulfilled again!
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
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Post by Beloved on Jun 10, 2020 15:04:33 GMT -6
Date setting is... tricky. No event must precede the Rapture in order for it to occur; the only thing we know is that it is before the beginning of the 70th week. We will never pin it down with certainty, for as the Lord says, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7). It is not for the Church to know, end of story. So, while it very well may be appointed for a feast day, we do not know if this is so. Thus, I say it is best to say, "The Lord could come this very evening, this very hour," and live according with that statement. Date set if you must, but in the words of Greg Laurie, "If we can't cultivate the spiritual discipline to wake up the morning after a date of interest passes and have our hearts just as full of the blessed, any-moment hope of being caught up to be with Christ as we did 24 hours earlier, then we have no business dabbling in date speculation, and should simply let it go and steer clear of it."
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Post by Natalie on Jun 10, 2020 16:05:54 GMT -6
Beloved, I am going to disagree with you just slightly - or maybe simply expand on what you said.  Who was He talking to in Acts? The disciples, right? They were not to know the times and the seasons because it was not going to be in their lifetime and they have another job to do first anyway (take the Gospel to the world). Paul says in 1 Thes 5 that the Day will not overtake us as a thief, so to me anyway, that seems to say that we will see it coming. Maybe not the exact day, but the general time. Hebrews also talks about seeing the Day approaching. So, while you may be correct that we may never know with certainty what day it will be, we certainly see it coming and know we are in the time and season of His return. I do like that quote of Greg Laurie's.
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Post by mike on Jun 11, 2020 8:53:11 GMT -6
Date setting is... tricky. No event must precede the Rapture in order for it to occur; the only thing we know is that it is before the beginning of the 70th week. We will never pin it down with certainty, for as the Lord says, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7). It is not for the Church to know, end of story. So, while it very well may be appointed for a feast day, we do not know if this is so. Thus, I say it is best to say, "The Lord could come this very evening, this very hour," and live according with that statement. Date set if you must, but in the words of Greg Laurie, "If we can't cultivate the spiritual discipline to wake up the morning after a date of interest passes and have our hearts just as full of the blessed, any-moment hope of being caught up to be with Christ as we did 24 hours earlier, then we have no business dabbling in date speculation, and should simply let it go and steer clear of it." replied: B - Natalie covered much of what I thought in her reply. I did want to point out the blue font, for brief reply. In a pre-trib rapture model one would have fairly universal agreement that the rapture would/should happen prior to the 70th week. However that is just one (widely held) assumption. A couple things to consider: - How long is the 70th 'week' of Daniel - some believe/think/feel that the week has already been fulfilled (at Christ first advent) or is at least fulfilled half way (3.5 years already gone [was He cut off mid-week]-waiting for 3.5 more) <-- no need to debate that in this thread, just something for thought
- There are those who support mid-trib or pre-wrath and other who see a late Trib or end Trib rapture - so to those it would not be clear that the 70th week begins after the rapture.
I fully agree with you that we arent certain of any of these and should live every day as if "He is coming today" because one day He will (1Thes 5:2, Matt 24:42)! BUT He has commanded us to watch for His return (1Thes 5:4).
When we take Acts 1:7 in isolation it does say what you propose, however in reading the text before and after, we do see that this was specific to the apostles as verse 8 Jesus tells them why.
I also liked the Greg Laurie quote |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 5, 2020 9:54:08 GMT -6
bruce, bradwatsonmiami, Natalie, nana, disciple4life, mike, Beloved, Hello friends, This is just hot off the press, and well, since we are quickly approaching the Feast of Trumpets, this video totally belongs here. This was shared by nana, and the content is incredible. It connects all the dots and it all adds up. What would be amazing, if we could have this content, with the high quality graphics and images we are used to in the videos by Paul Watchman Dawson and presented by Ravi Zacharias. I recommend just listening the first time- without the video, and then play it again, and watch the white board - It's mind-numbing. Maybe this year, - I sure hope and pray. I don't even want to be here another year. It's like a kid waiting for Christmas and it's only January.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 9, 2020 19:49:44 GMT -6
bruce, bradwatsonmiami, Natalie, nana, disciple4life, mike, Beloved, Hello brothers, and sisters, This latest video is a game-changer. It solves so many questions and connects so so many dots, and brings clarity to several mysteries, that are the topics of a half dozen different threads on this forum. It also perfectly coincides and confirms the latest article on the home page by Jeff, and gives 2 brand new ginormous nuggets. It's brand-new, revolutionary information. It's very concise, about 17 minutes. Worth every second. The amazing thing is that the amazing truth in the video works with all 3 different Tribulation & Rapture time tables - Pre-Tribulation, Post Tribulation, and Pre-Wrath. This is beyond phenomenal. 1st ground-breaking information is at #4th Point about 6:00 min mark, and the second ground-breaking truth is at the #6 point. If this doesn't light your fire, then your wood's wet. Heheheh. This clears up a bunch of mysteries/ discussions, that are topics of multiple threads.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 11, 2020 17:34:29 GMT -6
bruce , bradwatsonmiami , Natalie , nana , disciple4life , mike , Beloved , Hello fellow watchmen. Lots and Lots of amazing stuff happening really fast right now. I thought of you, and your question, Bruce. ;-) Bruce said "I do believe that the day of the rapture will be significant, and it could be a feast day, but I am wondering if final fulfillments of feast days maybe need to occur when the associated Levitical rituals are in progress. And since the Church was proclaimed a "mystery" by Paul, maybe our rapture exit will also be unknown in advance, even if the day turns out to be very significant in retrospect." It turns out, that we have evidence from thousands of years ago, that the Jews believe that the First day of Creation was 1st of Tishri, and it's way beyond coincidence that if you take the Hebrew letters for " In the Beginning" from Genesis 1:1 - back wards, it says 1st of Tishri. There is also very compelling evidence from science and astronomy, that Christ was born on 1st of Tishri - [this was the last time that the Revelation 12 sign appeared in the sky, in 3 BC] and we also have evidence from scripture that Christ was born on a feast day. Watchmen and Bible scholars have believed this for years, and now we have confirmation from science and the signs in the heavens.  It's almost like God put the sun, moon and stars in the sky to tell us major events in His Story. What an incredible coincidence. Then, it just keeps, getting better and better. There is lot of excitement, and discussion all over the watchmen /end times community about this being a Jubilee year. The prophetic implications of this are staggering - to say the least. But the really mind-numbing thing was in the latest video by Nelson Walters - Let this sink in for just a minute -- The Jubilee begins on 1st of Tishri. hmmmmm.
There are three major themes that launch the millennium: Resurrection, Kingship and Marriage.
The Feast of Trumpets also known as Rosh Hashanah, is the only feast or appointed time that fulfills all three." Messianic Rabbi, Mark Biltz, "If we're not on the calendar that God is on, then we're going to miss the event. You want to be at the wedding of the Messiah, so I tell people, - then why don't you want to be at the dress rehearsal? They are doing the dress rehearsal in heaven. Every year, on feast of Trumpets in heaven, they are practicing, believe me. Can you imagine - hundreds of millions of people in Heaven, clapping their hands, rejoicing, and Yeshua is crowned King of Kings." Just wow.
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 17, 2020 18:05:18 GMT -6
This is so exciting, so encouraging.
Goose Bumps. Man-oh-man.
He says that all he's ever studied and taught, - all the evidence is all pointing to this year. "The high possibility of a rapture this year, at Feast of Trumpets is off the charts".
We have never had so many prophetic pieces, and the day counts match, and all the events in place in 1990 years.
You can hear and feel it in the video, especially at the end, he feels that this is the last week - that his last video may be Friday.
Regardless of how you see a timeline, this is so fantastic. You have to appreciate his conviction and his unwavering consistency - He has been consistently preaching repentance, and the rapture at FOT. He has never preached any other feast.
"Our departure is at hand"
Wow !!
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Who was He talking to in Acts? The disciples, right? They were not to know the times and the seasons because it was not going to be in their lifetime and they have another job to do first anyway (take the Gospel to the world). Paul says in 1 Thes 5 that the Day will not overtake us as a thief, so to me anyway, that seems to say that we will see it coming. Maybe not the exact day, but the general time. Hebrews also talks about seeing the Day approaching. So, while you may be correct that we may never know with certainty what day it will be, we certainly see it coming and know we are in the time and season of His return. 
It's almost like God put the sun, moon and stars in the sky to tell us major events in His Story. What an incredible coincidence.