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Post by Natalie on Apr 27, 2020 15:23:38 GMT -6
I don't think it has always been immanent. I think that it had to be after 1948. That's the sign I see showing the rapture and the end of all things is at hand. I don't think there are any more signs that have to happen before the rapture, but I do think there are ones that have and possibly will happen before. At this point, I also don't see that there will be a sign for the rapture. But that's subject to change as I read the Word and watch events unfold. people before 1948 practiced immanence. And it isn’t found in scripture that the rapture was after Israel, so people back then before 1948 had no idea. But you were just asking us personally. |
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Post by yardstick on Apr 27, 2020 17:09:00 GMT -6
Yes, I'm with you on the part about signs can and or will happen before the rapture, even though we differ on the exact timing of the rapture.
I'm still studying and reading and gathering information, but I'm not 100% convinced of the notion that "No other prophecies have to happen before the rapture" - this entire statement/ position entirely rests on how a person views the Day of the Lord.
It's a very important and ginormous piece of the puzzle and here's why it matters to everyone - all the different possible viewpoints if a person believes in end times [not replacement theology or a-millennialists]
If "The Day of the Lord" means the second coming, as I'm firmly of this group - and not the rapture, then it means that the Anti-Christ will be revealed sometime between the rapture and second coming, then whether a person is Pre-Tribulation rapture or mid-Tribulation.
But if the Day of the Lord is the exact same event as the Day of Christ - [If it refers to Harpazo- Christians being caught up quickly by force] then it means that before this happens, *** regardless of where one puts it on the 7 year timeline - then we will recognize the AC before the rapture.
This goes to barbiosheepgirl comment above. Christ said in the Olivet Discourse - Matt 24 - Christ described events of the Great Tribulation, and he said that this time will be worse than has ever been or ever will be.. This is how we know that the Great Tribulation was not in the Holocaust or the Great Depression or WW II, or the massive tsunami of 2001 or so, that killed hundreds of thousands, in the South Pacific.
That's also how we know 110% that we are not in the tribulation now. Scripture clearly describes in explicit detail what this period will look like, and this is far far worse than any arrests, virus, plague, war, or pandemic, or economic crash we are currently seeing.
I'm also with you 100%. my brother. in the part about not believing for a moment the notion of imminancy (surprise, any-day rapture), and while I think people should be allowed to believe in Bigfoot, or that our government is truthful, or in hobbits or Palestinians, etc - I do have the expectation that when it comes to theology and doctrine, I shouldn't believe in something I can't defend from scripture. The words of Paul in I Thes 5:4-5 are directly contrary to and mutually exclusive to any-day, surprise rapture. You can choose one or the other, but not both. ** Lots of wives and moms on this forum - so yall will appreciate this  - When we're talking about a normal pregnancy - you can either believe that a baby can be born any minute of any month, or you believe that there is a range and that there are also specific markers and warnings that tell the mother that the birth is getting closer. If you or your spouse ever gave birth, you don't want the option of believing your single cousin Cletus, who tells you, "Congratulations, Amy, - your baby can come any minute- maybe even tomorrow" , and your sister, or wife - Amy is in the beginning of her 2nd trimester.
There are so many examples of the rapture that Christ and Paul and John and other prophets give us (At least six specific things- It's an imminent thread I'm working one) and maybe more, and without exception - every single one of these are not surprise signless events. All of these examples are things that have clear and predictable signs, and/or happen on specific dates or seasons.
The entire false doctrine of imminent rapture is built upon one verse - entirely taken out of context.
When we examine the proper context and use the Map of the Holy Spirit, with Ben Franklin's special colored glasses of Hebrew culture and world views ***[Analogy from National Treasure] and take this verse off the table - Christ's use of a well-known and instantly recognizable Hebrew idiom of 'No One Knows the Day or Hour' - then the entire concept of imminent rapture completely crumbles.
If rapture is imminent, (any day, surprise) then Paul's words are false, and it means that 2/3 of the New Testament can't be trusted.
Disciple4life , I still am shocked because you are pre TB and don't believe in immanency. I think that's awesome but still shocking. I know you said earlier that many PRE TB don't believe in it as well but it is still a major belief in (IMHO 95%) of Pre TB proponents. Straight from the pre TB center @ www.pre-trib.org where Dr T Ice, Walvoord, Dr LaHaye and such known names have many articles on this subject. Here is one below: So as a major belief in Pre TB circles/churches and individuals....hence my astonishment. Are there others here that also disagree with immanency? mike , @natalie, boraddict , yardstick , stormyknight Apologies to all for not being able to reply before now. I hope to be able to address some of the other prior conversations as well as this one. venge, regarding 'imminency' - I think it depends on how it is defined. I believe (historically) that it has meant that the harpazo could occur at any time, with no prerequisites required. Many now believe this to not be true. Based upon some of the research done on this site; and what many believe is the Rev 12:1 sign (9/23/17), I believe that imminency - as it has historically been used - is no longer applicable. That does not mean that imminency could not have specific prerequisites set forth in scripture, though. I believe that many here and elsewhere would more narrowly use that term in the sense of 'high watch times', a higher probability of a harpazo is more likely to occur due to fulfillment of prophetic events leading up to it. We see the 'signs in the heavens' and the 'signs in the earth' and the consternation of governments et al, and know that if we just had a better handle on the specific signs (as it were 'roadsigns') we would be more capable of isolating a tighter window. I believe that such a situation would motivate many more to evangelize. Reduce the risk of being incorrect; and you increase the likelihood of proselytization motivated by known imminent events. I believe that such a strategy without that knowledge is subject to a much higher risk of failure than a 'standard' pulpit call to salvation (for instance). Presumably it is also much higher reward; in the sense of quantity of souls reached successfully. Regarding your item (2) above and the harpazo being unexpected: I believe it will only be unexpected for those who are not looking for it; as scripture warns. Regarding (3): if Rev 12 is sequential as it appears to be, then this point is fully debunked, since Rev 12:1 and 12:3 have to occur (and many believe they have already) prior to Rev 12:5. (a representation of the harpazo) |
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2020 17:51:49 GMT -6
people before 1948 practiced immanence. And it isn’t found in scripture that the rapture was after Israel, so people back then before 1948 had no idea. But you were just asking us personally. Well, Mike..but yes 😀 |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 27, 2020 17:54:19 GMT -6
That's where I thought you were asking.
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Post by boraddict on Apr 28, 2020 10:39:46 GMT -6
I would have never thought that Gates would prove to be a player for the other side. I thought he was a better man than that.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 28, 2020 11:51:50 GMT -6
And let's not forget Rev 15:1, which just occurred. All three of these stellar events for me at least, suggest the whole Book of Revelation is layers of orders of events, and it takes prayerful study to sort and organize the layers. Personally, after 9/23/17 we should have scrapped all the pre-existing theories of Revelation and started over from scratch.. lol
No where in Revelation is the word anti-Christ used. Yes there is this blasphemous beast thing from the Sea, AND looking at the word blasphemy we have this – literally, slow (sluggish) to call something good (that really is good) – and slow to identify what is truly bad (that really is evil). calls what God disapproves, "right" which "exchanges the truth of God for a lie"
This is a conglomerate beast of the "sea" so to me it has been given over to its desires, which is to follow the Lie. Not so much denying who Christ is. It is a general denial of God and HIS laws, ways and means of what is righteous. Rev 13 is describing a condition of mankind, imho, and this virus outbreak whether intentional or not, whatever. It is the response to it that is the scary part. Gaytes is not the only head or horn involved in a "solution."
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Post by Natalie on Apr 28, 2020 18:00:00 GMT -6
I don't think Rev 15:1 has happened yet. It is mentioned as "great and amazing". I don't believe it is going to be anything with Pleiades. Pleiades is there all the time.
But I agree that the book of Rev is very layered. And God is doing everything His way and just as He has planned. We just need to watch it unfold.  And yes, even adjust our thinking sometimes. |
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Post by socalexile on Apr 28, 2020 18:59:52 GMT -6
2 Thess 2:11 doesn't say "a lie" it says "The lie". The Greek has the definite article.
What lie? Probably the original one: that the knowledge of good and evil will make you like God, being good to make one wise.
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Post by yardstick on Apr 29, 2020 3:49:18 GMT -6
And let's not forget Rev 15:1, which just occurred. All three of these stellar events for me at least, suggest the whole Book of Revelation is layers of orders of events, and it takes prayerful study to sort and organize the layers. Personally, after 9/23/17 we should have scrapped all the pre-existing theories of Revelation and started over from scratch.. lol No where in Revelation is the word anti-Christ used. Yes there is this blasphemous beast thing from the Sea, AND looking at the word blasphemy we have this – literally, slow (sluggish) to call something good (that really is good) – and slow to identify what is truly bad (that really is evil). calls what God disapproves, "right" which "exchanges the truth of God for a lie"This is a conglomerate beast of the "sea" so to me it has been given over to its desires, which is to follow the Lie. Not so much denying who Christ is. It is a general denial of God and HIS laws, ways and means of what is righteous. Rev 13 is describing a condition of mankind, imho, and this virus outbreak whether intentional or not, whatever. It is the response to it that is the scary part. Gaytes is not the only head or horn involved in a "solution." The word 'ouranō' (οὐρανῷ) in 15:1 is the same word (even in tense and spelling) as in 12:1 and 12:3, so it has to be the same type of sign. Can you explain in more detail what you're talking about in bold above please? |
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Post by yardstick on Apr 29, 2020 3:50:06 GMT -6
I don't think Rev 15:1 has happened yet. It is mentioned as "great and amazing". I don't believe it is going to be anything with Pleiades. Pleiades is there all the time.
But I agree that the book of Rev is very layered. And God is doing everything His way and just as He has planned. We just need to watch it unfold. And yes, even adjust our thinking sometimes. I believe it is discussed in another thread as occurring in 2024... |
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- When we're talking about a normal pregnancy - you can either believe that a baby can be born any minute of any month, or you believe that there is a range and that there are also specific markers and warnings that tell the mother that the birth is getting closer. If you or your spouse ever gave birth, you don't want the option of believing your single cousin Cletus, who tells you, "Congratulations, Amy, - your baby can come any minute- maybe even tomorrow" , and your sister, or wife - Amy is in the beginning of her 2nd trimester. 
And yes, even adjust our thinking sometimes. 