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Post by venge on Apr 25, 2020 12:32:25 GMT -6
I took a look at the article and the author wrote:
The author also said again at the end regarding the coronavirus:
If it is a sign and it sets the stage for the rapture....how is the thought the rapture being imminent any second or day now possible? Immanency requires no signs, it can happen any second from 50 years ago to before Covid19 was discovered. Yet this author suggest is it a sign and sets the stage for the rapture. Since Pre TB believes the signs are only for the second coming and not the rapture, how do people look at the rapture being imminent if there are pre-requisites? Was Ebola also a pre requisite? Swing Flu? All earthquakes in the last 200 years? What future disease, earthquakes, floods, famines and such are also pre-requisites/signs that must occur...or do they not have to occur because of imminancy?
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 25, 2020 14:44:29 GMT -6
I took a look at the article and the author wrote: The author also said again at the end regarding the coronavirus: If it is a sign and it sets the stage for the rapture....how is the thought the rapture being imminent any second or day now possible? Immanency requires no signs, it can happen any second" Two thoughts- one is that something being imminent is not connected with signs, and the entire concept of any moment (surprise rapture) is totally unbiblical. It's a false premise built entirely from one verse taken out of context. Aside from that point- some things can be imminent and have signs like the "water breaking" in pregnancy- it can be minutes away and other things are imminent without any signs. Venge said "Since Pre TB believes the signs are only for the second coming and not the rapture, how do people look at the rapture being imminent if there are pre-requisites"? I've been parts of dispensational churches in 8 states and 3 countries and most pre-trib people I've ever met don't believe signs are only for the second coming. Venge said "Ebola also a pre requisite? Swing Flu? All earthquakes in the last 200 years?" The Swine flu, and Ebola and all the earthquakes are categorically different. This is unique on many levels, though certainly not because the number of deaths is higher. This is unique in the world-wide scope of control, media-induced panic, businesses closed, police and military enforced curfews, drones monitoring the public, and calls for one-world government, digital tracking, forced testing and the level of global economic destruction, and fear-mongering/ false numbers that don't match reality. That's the point of the article- it's a front for advancing multiple agendas that set the stage for the events of the Tribulation, rise of the AC, one-world government, need for EU leader, and one world currency. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Apr 25, 2020 17:09:46 GMT -6
The Beast one or both, at work then, I say. Which I would ask, how much tribulation do we experience before we say Mid-trib? Personally I have no stance ANYMORE on if it is pre or mid or post-Trib. Wrath is something else and still yet to be fully understood. If it were fully understood, we would not have Trib being mixed with Wrath, or pre-, mid- post-, or A-trib mindsets.
How do you have massive single day shut down of many societies? THE INTERNET! aka, the MEDIA. One aspect of a head or horn, given temporary voice, or a kingdom which does not have a king, but MANY followers. Just saying. Not arguing, not coming to a conclusion, just sifting what is going on.
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Post by venge on Apr 26, 2020 6:01:39 GMT -6
I took a look at the article and the author wrote:
The author also said again at the end regarding the coronavirus:
If it is a sign and it sets the stage for the rapture....how is the thought the rapture being imminent any second or day now possible? Immanency requires no signs, it can happen any second" Two thoughts- one is that something being imminent is not connected with signs, and the entire concept of any moment (surprise rapture) is totally unbiblical. It's a false premise built entirely from one verse taken out of context. Aside from that point- some things can be imminent and have signs like the "water breaking" in pregnancy- it can be minutes away and other things are imminent without any signs. Venge said " Since Pre TB believes the signs are only for the second coming and not the rapture, how do people look at the rapture being imminent if there are pre-requisites"? I've been parts of dispensational churches in 8 states and 3 countries and most pre-trib people I've ever met don't believe signs are only for the second coming.Venge said "Ebola also a pre requisite? Swing Flu? All earthquakes in the last 200 years?" The Swine flu, and Ebola and all the earthquakes are categorically different. This is unique on many levels, though certainly not because the number of deaths is higher. This is unique in the world-wide scope of control, media-induced panic, businesses closed, police and military enforced curfews, drones monitoring the public, and calls for one-world government, digital tracking, forced testing and the level of global economic destruction, and fear-mongering/ false numbers that don't match reality. That's the point of the article- it's a front for advancing multiple agendas that set the stage for the events of the Tribulation, rise of the AC, one-world government, need for EU leader, and one world currency. Just wanted to correct the quote above. It appeared from my previous post that the one above is not what I had said and a reply was entered into my quote. I will color it for others (mine in blue, his in red) disciple4life , I don't believe in immanency. There are plenty of others that do and his comment surprised me because of it. Great to hear you believe signs can or will happen before the rapture. |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 26, 2020 10:43:59 GMT -6
venge , Thank you my brother, for making the correction. I was trying to reply on my mobile phone, and that's how the reply got all messed up.
I don't know how to show several different isolated quotes within a post, so that a person can reply or clarify to specific points.
[Thank you - for making it more clear by color-coding - putting the specific quotes and replies in red and blue. That helps a lot. ]
I know that it's possible because I see others doing it.
The only way I know is to hit the quote button, and then it copies the entire post of the person, and then I go back in and delets all the rest of the post that doesn't apply, but this is a huge pain.
And to clarify - Yes, I'm with you on the part about signs can and or will happen before the rapture, even though we differ on the exact timing of the rapture.
I'm still studying and reading and gathering information, but I'm not 100% convinced of the notion that "No other prophecies have to happen before the rapture" - this entire statement/ position entirely rests on how a person views the Day of the Lord.
It's a very important and ginormous piece of the puzzle and here's why it matters to everyone - all the different possible viewpoints if a person believes in end times [not replacement theology or a-millennialists] If "The Day of the Lord" means the second coming, as I'm firmly of this group - and not the rapture, then it means that the Anti-Christ will be revealed sometime between the rapture and second coming, then whether a person is Pre-Tribulation rapture or mid-Tribulation.
But if the Day of the Lord is the exact same event as the Day of Christ - [If it refers to Harpazo- Christians being caught up quickly by force] then it means that before this happens, *** regardless of where one puts it on the 7 year timeline - then we will recognize the AC before the rapture.
This goes to barbiosheepgirl comment above. Christ said in the Olivet Discourse - Matt 24 - Christ described events of the Great Tribulation, and he said that this time will be worse than has ever been or ever will be.. This is how we know that the Great Tribulation was not in the Holocaust or the Great Depression or WW II, or the massive tsunami of 2001 or so, that killed hundreds of thousands, in the South Pacific.
That's also how we know 110% that we are not in the tribulation now. Scripture clearly describes in explicit detail what this period will look like, and this is far far worse than any arrests, virus, plague, war, or pandemic, or economic crash we are currently seeing.
I'm also with you 100%. my brother. in the part about not believing for a moment the notion of imminancy (surprise, any-day rapture), and while I think people should be allowed to believe in Bigfoot, or that our government is truthful, or in hobbits or Palestinians, etc - I do have the expectation that when it comes to theology and doctrine, I shouldn't believe in something I can't defend from scripture. The words of Paul in I Thes 5:4-5 are directly contrary to and mutually exclusive to any-day, surprise rapture. You can choose one or the other, but not both. ** Lots of wives and moms on this forum - so yall will appreciate this  - When we're talking about a normal pregnancy - you can either believe that a baby can be born any minute of any month, or you believe that there is a range and that there are also specific markers and warnings that tell the mother that the birth is getting closer. If you or your spouse ever gave birth, you don't want the option of believing your single cousin Cletus, who tells you, "Congratulations, Amy, - your baby can come any minute- maybe even tomorrow" , and your sister, or wife - Amy is in the beginning of her 2nd trimester.
There are so many examples of the rapture that Christ and Paul and John and other prophets give us (At least six specific things- It's an imminent thread I'm working one) and maybe more, and without exception - every single one of these are not surprise signless events. All of these examples are things that have clear and predictable signs, and/or happen on specific dates or seasons.
The entire false doctrine of imminent rapture is built upon one verse - entirely taken out of context.
When we examine the proper context and use the Map of the Holy Spirit, with Ben Franklin's special colored glasses of Hebrew culture and world views ***[Analogy from National Treasure] and take this verse off the table - Christ's use of a well-known and instantly recognizable Hebrew idiom of 'No One Knows the Day or Hour' - then the entire concept of imminent rapture completely crumbles.
If rapture is imminent, (any day, surprise) then Paul's words are false, and it means that 2/3 of the New Testament can't be trusted.
Disciple4life |
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Post by venge on Apr 26, 2020 15:01:58 GMT -6
Yes, I'm with you on the part about signs can and or will happen before the rapture, even though we differ on the exact timing of the rapture.
I'm still studying and reading and gathering information, but I'm not 100% convinced of the notion that "No other prophecies have to happen before the rapture" - this entire statement/ position entirely rests on how a person views the Day of the Lord.
It's a very important and ginormous piece of the puzzle and here's why it matters to everyone - all the different possible viewpoints if a person believes in end times [not replacement theology or a-millennialists]
If "The Day of the Lord" means the second coming, as I'm firmly of this group - and not the rapture, then it means that the Anti-Christ will be revealed sometime between the rapture and second coming, then whether a person is Pre-Tribulation rapture or mid-Tribulation.
But if the Day of the Lord is the exact same event as the Day of Christ - [If it refers to Harpazo- Christians being caught up quickly by force] then it means that before this happens, *** regardless of where one puts it on the 7 year timeline - then we will recognize the AC before the rapture.
This goes to barbiosheepgirl comment above. Christ said in the Olivet Discourse - Matt 24 - Christ described events of the Great Tribulation, and he said that this time will be worse than has ever been or ever will be.. This is how we know that the Great Tribulation was not in the Holocaust or the Great Depression or WW II, or the massive tsunami of 2001 or so, that killed hundreds of thousands, in the South Pacific.
That's also how we know 110% that we are not in the tribulation now. Scripture clearly describes in explicit detail what this period will look like, and this is far far worse than any arrests, virus, plague, war, or pandemic, or economic crash we are currently seeing.
I'm also with you 100%. my brother. in the part about not believing for a moment the notion of imminancy (surprise, any-day rapture), and while I think people should be allowed to believe in Bigfoot, or that our government is truthful, or in hobbits or Palestinians, etc - I do have the expectation that when it comes to theology and doctrine, I shouldn't believe in something I can't defend from scripture. The words of Paul in I Thes 5:4-5 are directly contrary to and mutually exclusive to any-day, surprise rapture. You can choose one or the other, but not both. ** Lots of wives and moms on this forum - so yall will appreciate this - When we're talking about a normal pregnancy - you can either believe that a baby can be born any minute of any month, or you believe that there is a range and that there are also specific markers and warnings that tell the mother that the birth is getting closer. If you or your spouse ever gave birth, you don't want the option of believing your single cousin Cletus, who tells you, "Congratulations, Amy, - your baby can come any minute- maybe even tomorrow" , and your sister, or wife - Amy is in the beginning of her 2nd trimester.
There are so many examples of the rapture that Christ and Paul and John and other prophets give us (At least six specific things- It's an imminent thread I'm working one) and maybe more, and without exception - every single one of these are not surprise signless events. All of these examples are things that have clear and predictable signs, and/or happen on specific dates or seasons.
The entire false doctrine of imminent rapture is built upon one verse - entirely taken out of context.
When we examine the proper context and use the Map of the Holy Spirit, with Ben Franklin's special colored glasses of Hebrew culture and world views ***[Analogy from National Treasure] and take this verse off the table - Christ's use of a well-known and instantly recognizable Hebrew idiom of 'No One Knows the Day or Hour' - then the entire concept of imminent rapture completely crumbles.
If rapture is imminent, (any day, surprise) then Paul's words are false, and it means that 2/3 of the New Testament can't be trusted.
Disciple4life , I still am shocked because you are pre TB and don't believe in immanency. I think that's awesome but still shocking. I know you said earlier that many PRE TB don't believe in it as well but it is still a major belief in (IMHO 95%) of Pre TB proponents. Straight from the pre TB center @ www.pre-trib.org where Dr T Ice, Walvoord, Dr LaHaye and such known names have many articles on this subject. Here is one below: So as a major belief in Pre TB circles/churches and individuals....hence my astonishment. Are there others here that also disagree with immanency? mike , @natalie, boraddict , yardstick , stormyknight |
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Post by disciple4life on Apr 26, 2020 15:51:17 GMT -6
venge , Yeah, I can understand you being shocked. It definitely is not the opinion of the vast majority.
I had mentioned before in another thread, that there are several major issues that I have studied and changed my mind 180 degrees from what I was taught all my life by all my pastors - and my parents, and this was one of the major issues.
Interestingly, my mother is now 71, born the same year Israel became a nation, and she has also changed her position on this 180 degrees from how she and dad taught us, and how they were taught, but she notes that the examples given by Christ and Paul for the rapture don't match the imminent (surprise, any-day) rapture view taught by the majority.
It's also very interesting/ ironic, that the fragment you quoted from the pre-tribulation websites, list the exact verse I mentioned specifically, taken out of context, because it's the only verse to support this notion.
Again, it was not my intention to argue, but rather to try to be like a Berean, and encourage others who are also watchmen to do the same.
It is only with the proper understanding of the "Thief in the night idiom", and it's meaning which is the Captain of the Temple guard and then, this in turn, gives a totally different light on the passage of Paul in I Thessalonians 5, and the words of Christ to the Five foolish bridesmaids - it is only the foolish, -those not watching, who don't know the hour, and who are caught sleeping, and then the Captain of the Temple guard, who was referred to as the Thief in the night, lit their clothes on fire, so the ones sleeping have to go running into the temple court naked - in their priestly boxer briefs. 
Blessings,
Disciple4life. |
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2020 5:58:33 GMT -6
venge , Yeah, I can understand you being shocked. It definitely is not the opinion of the vast majority.
I had mentioned before in another thread, that there are several major issues that I have studied and changed my mind 180 degrees from what I was taught all my life by all my pastors - and my parents, and this was one of the major issues.
Interestingly, my mother is now 71, born the same year Israel became a nation, and she has also changed her position on this 180 degrees from how she and dad taught us, and how they were taught, but she notes that the examples given by Christ and Paul for the rapture don't match the imminent (surprise, any-day) rapture view taught by the majority.
It's also very interesting/ ironic, that the fragment you quoted from the pre-tribulation websites, list the exact verse I mentioned specifically, taken out of context, because it's the only verse to support this notion.
Again, it was not my intention to argue, but rather to try to be like a Berean, and encourage others who are also watchmen to do the same.
It is only with the proper understanding of the "Thief in the night idiom", and it's meaning which is the Captain of the Temple guard and then, this in turn, gives a totally different light on the passage of Paul in I Thessalonians 5, and the words of Christ to the Five foolish bridesmaids - it is only the foolish, -those not watching, who don't know the hour, and who are caught sleeping, and then the Captain of the Temple guard, who was referred to as the Thief in the night, lit their clothes on fire, so the ones sleeping have to go running into the temple court naked - in their priestly boxer briefs.
Blessings,
Disciple4life. That is awesome! Thank you for the explanation. |
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Post by mike on Apr 27, 2020 8:13:50 GMT -6
venge said: As you have heard statements from many and too many times, I was taught this or that by my pastor - "Jesus will come like a thief in the night, at any moment in time" - well that was me too. When I came to Unsealed my past teaching was eclipsed by the conversations had here and my knowledge was broadened to consider the other possibilities. My approach to the rapture and the Lords ultimate return is more like this quote from BSG: Everyday I take in whats going on in the world and use the Word to interpret it as best I can. I know for certain, that His return s closer today than it was yesterday and one day will be THAT DAY!
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 27, 2020 8:29:05 GMT -6
Great to hear you believe signs can or will happen before the rapture. I do believe there is more to come before the rapture, BUT, most of it being on satan's side of things. Mankind has free will and will do what he will(yes, the Father knows the outcome, but the decisions still have to be made). The trouble as has never happened since whenever still hasn't happened, something I think will be experienced world wide, not just locally. It'll have to be worse than the Holocaust or the trenches of WW1 or the Black Plague or the scourge of Genghis Khan.
But for us, I think there is one thing that will happen yet:
"At midnight the cry went out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ " Matt. 25:6
The announcement that Jesus is here. The call to meet Him.
The verse before that says the bridegroom was delayed, but is he really? There are other parables and verses that tell of 'thinking' that the bridegroom/master is delayed, Luke 12:45 for one, but others that say Jesus will not be delayed and will come when He means to.
"For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay." Heb. 10:37
I guess we must take care and not be lulled into thinking He is delayed and fall asleep.
When will this cry come? I find it interesting that the verse says the cry went out at midnight, and just this last January, the announcement was made on the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist that the Atomic Clock was moved from two minutes to one hundred seconds to midnight. Is this the midnight foretold in the verse? Because midnight in one place on the earth is not the same as other places, but this clock counts for the whole planet.
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2020 8:49:34 GMT -6
Great to hear you believe signs can or will happen before the rapture. I do believe there is more to come before the rapture, BUT, most of it being on satan's side of things. Mankind has free will and will do what he will(yes, the Father knows the outcome, but the decisions still have to be made). The trouble as has never happened since whenever still hasn't happened, something I think will be experienced world wide, not just locally. It'll have to be worse than the Holocaust or the trenches of WW1 or the Black Plague or the scourge of Genghis Khan.
But for us, I think there is one thing that will happen yet:
"At midnight the cry went out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ " Matt. 25:6
The announcement that Jesus is here. The call to meet Him.
The verse before that says the bridegroom was delayed, but is he really? There are other parables and verses that tell of 'thinking' that the bridegroom/master is delayed, Luke 12:45 for one, but others that say Jesus will not be delayed and will come when He means to.
"For, “In just a little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay." Heb. 10:37
I guess we must take care and not be lulled into thinking He is delayed and fall asleep.
When will this cry come? I find it interesting that the verse says the cry went out at midnight, and just this last January, the announcement was made on the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientist that the Atomic Clock was moved from two minutes to one hundred seconds to midnight. Is this the midnight foretold in the verse? Because midnight in one place on the earth is not the same as other places, but this clock counts for the whole planet.
I take the cry going out at midnight to mean at a late hour when most are asleep (if not all), and at that time of the night there is nothing but complete darkness. So when the actual cry goes out for the Lord to come, the inhabitants of the earth will be spiritually asleep and the world will be consumed in complete darkness (wickedness) as if it is midnight or a late hour though the sun is still out and it is daytime. |
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2020 9:04:12 GMT -6
venge said: As you have heard statements from many and too many times, I was taught this or that by my pastor - "Jesus will come like a thief in the night, at any moment in time" - well that was me too. When I came to Unsealed my past teaching was eclipsed by the conversations had here and my knowledge was broadened to consider the other possibilities. My approach to the rapture and the Lords ultimate return is more like this quote from BSG: Everyday I take in whats going on in the world and use the Word to interpret it as best I can. I know for certain, that His return s closer today than it was yesterday and one day will be THAT DAY! , In relation to the day of the Lord, that we are raptured prior to its commencement, Zechariah says, It seems that when the day of the Lord comes, the day of his wrath that we are absent from and we are raptured before, the guests are invited to a wedding supper/sacrifice that had just happened. Who do you think are the guests mike,? |
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Post by Natalie on Apr 27, 2020 13:05:16 GMT -6
I don't think it has always been immanent. I think that it had to be after 1948. That's the sign I see showing the rapture and the end of all things is at hand. I don't think there are any more signs that have to happen before the rapture, but I do think there are ones that have and possibly will happen before. At this point, I also don't see that there will be a sign for the rapture. But that's subject to change as I read the Word and watch events unfold.
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Post by Natalie on Apr 27, 2020 13:10:26 GMT -6
One of the thoughts I have had about this "doctrine of immanence" -- In every generation there were those who were looking for Him and calling people to be ready. Probably not a bad thing, even if they were off on the timing. Because, after all, we must be ready to meet Him because we don't know when He will call us Home - by death or Rapture.
ETA: I do not remember being taught much about the rapture or eschatology growing up. I don't really remember being taught much about Israel either. I think we spent most of our time in the NT (but not Revelation), except for the OT stories of Daniel, Noah, Jonah, things like that.
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Post by venge on Apr 27, 2020 15:20:39 GMT -6
I don't think it has always been immanent. I think that it had to be after 1948. That's the sign I see showing the rapture and the end of all things is at hand. I don't think there are any more signs that have to happen before the rapture, but I do think there are ones that have and possibly will happen before. At this point, I also don't see that there will be a sign for the rapture. But that's subject to change as I read the Word and watch events unfold. people before 1948 practiced immanence. And it isn’t found in scripture that the rapture was after Israel, so people back then before 1948 had no idea. |
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- When we're talking about a normal pregnancy - you can either believe that a baby can be born any minute of any month, or you believe that there is a range and that there are also specific markers and warnings that tell the mother that the birth is getting closer. If you or your spouse ever gave birth, you don't want the option of believing your single cousin Cletus, who tells you, "Congratulations, Amy, - your baby can come any minute- maybe even tomorrow" , and your sister, or wife - Amy is in the beginning of her 2nd trimester. 
