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Post by stormyknight on Apr 30, 2020 18:18:34 GMT -6
Perhaps semantics and technicalities play a part here. There are those who were resurrected back to physical life only to die once again, and then there are those who, like the church, who will be resurrected to immortal life, of whom the second death has no power over. The second death? Those who are resurrected at the Great White Throne judgement are those billions who have died throughout time, who will, at least in my mind, get to see what humanity has done and will then have a choice to make. Those who refuse overflowing abundance of love and joy will die a second death, never to be remembered ever again. How great their pride must be to choose thus.
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Post by venge on May 1, 2020 5:56:22 GMT -6
Perhaps semantics and technicalities play a part here. There are those who were resurrected back to physical life only to die once again, and then there are those who, like the church, who will be resurrected to immortal life, of whom the second death has no power over. The second death? Those who are resurrected at the Great White Throne judgement are those billions who have died throughout time, who will, at least in my mind, get to see what humanity has done and will then have a choice to make. Those who refuse overflowing abundance of love and joy will die a second death, never to be remembered ever again. How great their pride must be to choose thus. That was my point stormyknight, I realize there have been many resurrection's, but we were talking about resurrection to immortality. Not a resurrection back to the flesh to die again. We are promised a resurrection for the second death not to touch us; Where mortality puts on immortality. This same resurrection is the one promised to reign with Christ 1k years. And he says this to Laodicea, the church that was not hot or cold... Which means, we would reign with him. Or Paul's words in 1 Cor 15:22-23 That is the ONLY resurrection mentioned. Afterward at Christ coming which is the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20 when Christ begins to reign. The second one, which the second death can touch, is not mentioned here but eluded to: His enemies being when he begins to reign removing those that do iniquity from his kingdom. Then, after the end of the 1k year reign, the destruction of death which coincides with those that are not written in the book of life. The second death. |
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Post by Gary on May 4, 2020 13:25:42 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts: first, the resurrection termed "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 is simply called a resurrection. Regardless of there being resurrections back into mortal bodies and resurrections into immortal bodies, Rev. 20 is definitely not the first resurrection in sequence. That presents a glaring problem, imho, with lumping all future resurrections into just one. This is why the resurrections are type and not merely sequence (i.e., 1st resurrection is a series of resurrections unto life, in terms of immortality, beginning with Christ's own; the 2nd resurrection is a singular resurrection unto death occurring after all the saved are resurrected and glorified). It's true that the first resurrection precedes the second, but it's not true that all those taking part in a resurrection prior to the second are raised at a singular event in Rev. 20. Even excluding resurrections seemingly into mortal bodies like Lazarus, there were still others into immortal:
1. JESUS
2. [Possibly] the saints of old raised in Mt. 27
3. As I and other pretribbers would say, the Church, which is promised to be taken to Heaven (Jn. 14) and to be entirely kept from the coming trial on the whole earth (Rev. 3:10; 1 Thess. 4:13-5:11; etc)
4. Some have made a compelling case that the 144k must have been raised, as well, and not just be Israelites in fleshly bodies alive already
5. And of course, the two witnesses
I've also been researching the word "Day" in relation to the Day of the LORD and biblical eschatology in general, and have found that Christians through the millennia (and Jewish theologians for that matter) have understood this to be a coming, extended period of time, not just a single day. All of the events outlined in Isaiah 2, 13, 26, 34, 66, Jer. 30, Joel 2-3, Zeph. 1-2, Revelation, etc, where the Day of the LORD is mentioned, or where it is directly pulled from other texts, will encompass all or most of the Tribulation + the millennial day of Rev. 20 (2 Pt. 3:8).
Regarding 1 Cor. 15:22-23, I found a good article on this recently, which I'll see if I can find the link to. Basically, the argument is it's a misnomer to suggest that parousia always carries the singular meaning of Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives. In fact, the word itself is a present participle of ongoing action and could be translated "making oneself present," "making one's advent," and so forth. Christ's second advent, the parousia, begins with the rapture (when He COMES in the sky for His Church) and ends when He comes to the earth for the elect of Israel, to judge the nations of the world. It would include His presence revealed to the world in the midst of the Tribulation as He is beginning to take back control of earth (e.g., at the 6th Seal when the inhabitants of the earth see the heavens opened and God sitting on His throne with Christ present - v. 6:14-16).
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Post by venge on May 4, 2020 19:16:58 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts: first, the resurrection termed "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 is simply called a resurrection. Regardless of there being resurrections back into mortal bodies and resurrections into immortal bodies, Rev. 20 is definitely not the first resurrection in sequence. That presents a glaring problem, imho, with lumping all future resurrections into just one. This is why the resurrections are type and not merely sequence (i.e., 1st resurrection is a series of resurrections unto life, in terms of immortality, beginning with Christ's own; the 2nd resurrection is a singular resurrection unto death occurring after all the saved are resurrected and glorified). It's true that the first resurrection precedes the second, but it's not true that all those taking part in a resurrection prior to the second are raised at a singular event in Rev. 20. Even excluding resurrections seemingly into mortal bodies like Lazarus, there were still others into immortal: 1. JESUS 2. [Possibly] the saints of old raised in Mt. 27 3. As I and other pretribbers would say, the Church, which is promised to be taken to Heaven (Jn. 14) and to be entirely kept from the coming trial on the whole earth (Rev. 3:10; 1 Thess. 4:13-5:11; etc) 4. Some have made a compelling case that the 144k must have been raised, as well, and not just be Israelites in fleshly bodies alive already 5. And of course, the two witnesses I've also been researching the word "Day" in relation to the Day of the LORD and biblical eschatology in general, and have found that Christians through the millennia (and Jewish theologians for that matter) have understood this to be a coming, extended period of time, not just a single day. All of the events outlined in Isaiah 2, 13, 26, 34, 66, Jer. 30, Joel 2-3, Zeph. 1-2, Revelation, etc, where the Day of the LORD is mentioned, or where it is directly pulled from other texts, will encompass all or most of the Tribulation + the millennial day of Rev. 20 (2 Pt. 3:8). Regarding 1 Cor. 15:22-23, I found a good article on this recently, which I'll see if I can find the link to. Basically, the argument is it's a misnomer to suggest that parousia always carries the singular meaning of Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives. In fact, the word itself is a present participle of ongoing action and could be translated "making oneself present," "making one's advent," and so forth. Christ's second advent, the parousia, begins with the rapture (when He COMES in the sky for His Church) and ends when He comes to the earth for the elect of Israel, to judge the nations of the world. It would include His presence revealed to the world in the midst of the Tribulation as He is beginning to take back control of earth (e.g., at the 6th Seal when the inhabitants of the earth see the heavens opened and God sitting on His throne with Christ present - v. 6:14-16). In response to your statements: So how many resurrections into immortality should there be where we are told death has been swallowed up, and the sting of death is not felt? Are you saying there are many resurrections into immortality whereby each resurrection will change a man like unto the angels of heaven and will be immortal before and after the "first resurrection"? I agree and copied the verse that Jesus is the first fruits but then US at his coming (singular usage implying a one time event). Then comes the end.... -The saints raised in Matthew 27 aren't said to be immortal. I wont guess at, no one should. -The Philadelphia church is kept from an hour of temptation. Temptation is not wrath, rapture of resurrection. Being kept doesn't mean leaving earth, entering heaven or being changed immortal. They are kept from temptation because of their patience. Not because of faith, which is why we are saved. -some have made a compelling case the 144k are Christians. But I would say regardless of who they are, I have seen no scripture to suggest they are raptured saints. -yes, the 2 witnesses are "called up". Could that be the resurrection of the dead at the end of the 6th and the beginning of the 7th Trumpet? Yes, I agree the Day of the Lord is not a 24 hr day, but encompasses multiple days. I do not agree it will cover the entire tribulation, I realize we will agree to disagree on that. I believe the Day of the Lord will cover Christ beginning to reign in the millennial kingdom till he removes all iniquity. The day of the Lord being near, and not before, certain events that happen near the end of Revelation. I have to agree to disagree on this Gary. Christ's second advent, the parousia, begins with the rapture (when He COMES in the sky for His Church) and ends when He comes to the earth for the elect of Israel, to judge the nations of the world when he cast Hell and death into the lake of fire and he hath put all things under his feet, that he shall also himself be subject unto God that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:24-28 and Revelation 20:14) Where does scripture say he will be shown in the middle of tribulation? Matthew 24 says immediately after the tribulation, not in the middle of it. Curious about your last statement. You believe Christ will be seen for the first time at Revelation 6:16 ? Over Revelation 11:19 where Christ is a shadow of the ark of the testament and the temple of God is opened for all to see, not just the 1 high priest once a year. The same temple that opened and continued from Rev 11:19 to Revelation 15:5 and was afterwards closed so that no man could enter till the bowls were completed? And that God is seen at this point after the 7th trumpet is blown, the door being open still, Christ begins to reign, the bridge has made herself ready, the guest are invited, and during a time people say its God's wrath when this happens? Doesn't sound like any of that is wrath to me, that we are suppose to be out of when it comes. The people on earth that are wicked and ask to be hid from the face of the lamb and God - why do you think they ask that? |
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Post by Gary on May 8, 2020 9:59:17 GMT -6
"I have to agree to disagree on this Gary." I know we'll probably continue to disagree and that's fine. Love you brother. I'm grateful we can do that well by God's grace. A lot more could be drawn out and discussed here, but my main goal was just to demonstrate two things: 1. that there are numerous resurrections in the Bible, both into mortal bodies and into immortal and Rev. 20's use of "first resurrection" doesn't mean merely sequence because other resurrections of that same type will have already occurred (Jesus, likely the Mt. 27 saints, the two witnesses, maybe the 144k also, and of course, as I and others would say, the Church). Secondly, as virtually all premillennialists would say, the Day of the LORD must reference an expanded period of time greater than merely the exact day Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives. Blessings. I have a few articles I would recommend on parousia, 1 Cor. 15:23, etc: bible.org/seriespage/premillennialism-and-tribulation-%E2%80%94-part-vii-posttribulationism-continuedwww.petergoeman.com/how-many-resurrections-scripture/bible.org/seriespage/4-two-resurrectionsAlso, Walvoord whom I greatly respect has a good discussion of 1 Thess. 5 and pre-trib/post-trib debate on the Day of the LORD: bible.org/seriespage/9-rapture-and-day-lord-1-thessalonians-5Another good one on the Day of the LORD and the parousia from J. Hampton Keathley: bible.org/seriespage/4-correction-concerning-day-lord-part-1-2-thes-21-5There has also been some discussion on 1 Cor. 15:22-23 here on the board: board.unsealed.org/thread/1388/church-age-foreshadowed-feeding-5000Don Stewart has a pretty good synopsis: www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_138.cfm |
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Post by sog on May 11, 2020 14:10:10 GMT -6
Video from Barry Scarbrough discussing what I started this thread with. That is that October this year could be start of tribulation and the rare American solar eclipse which will happen April 8th 2024, thereby completing the "cross" across America would be the mid-point. The mid-point according to Daniel 9 being the Anti-Christ and the Abomination of Desolation. Although he mentions Oct. 8th 2020 instead of 10/28/2020 as the start of tribulation. He is using 3.5 years instead of 1260 prophetic days. That makes a difference. I'm more inclined to use 10/28/2020 because of some other evidence I mentioned in earlier parts of this thread. Read back through that. But is what he says possible? of course. Listen all the way through and make up your own mind. Either way something is happening then, imo. [Edit] He mentions Gary so I included his link. Gary talks about some of it here in his article a little over halfway through. www.unsealed.org/2020/05/an-emergency-government-for-time-of.htmlSo if Pre-trib, the rapture could occur then. Maybe Spring of 2021 at the latest if there is a gap of some sort. Again, based on some of what I posted earlier in this thread. And if Pre-Wrath, then we would probably be here until that April 2024 date or shortly thereafter. |
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Post by mike on May 11, 2020 17:02:37 GMT -6
Interesting sog. Passover is March 27 - April 4 (2021) |
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Post by sog on May 11, 2020 22:12:21 GMT -6
Interesting sog . Passover is March 27 - April 4 (2021) , I've also had those dates in mind for another possible theory. I still think the Rev. 12 sign had some kind of marker meaning. If you take the Rev 12 sign date of 9/23/2017 and subtract 1260 days for the first half of the 7 year tribulation you arrive 3 days prior to the 1st of the four blood moon tetrad that began on 4/15/2014. And if you add 1260 days for the second half of the 7 year tribulation to 9/23/2017 you end at date 3/6/2021 which is a special Shabbat called Shabbat Parah – Shabbat of the Red Heifer (maybe when sacrifices will truly begin again). Or add 1290 days of Daniel 12:11 scripture and you end at 4/5/2021. One day after the Passover dates you gave. Or add 1335 days of Daniel 12:12 and you end at 5/20/2021 which is the end of Shavuot (Festival of Weeks). So what does all that represent? It's been discussed before that there could be a 7 year feast/7 year famine type of mirror for the last days. This theory coming from the story of Joseph. Genesis 37-50. Joseph a type of Jesus who was given the title of Vizier (viceroy), basically 2nd in charge to Egyptian Pharaoh, at the age of 30. Same as Jesus becoming The High Priest at his baptism at age 30. A lot of parallels to Jesus in that story. What if those first 7 years of feast are from the 4 blood moon tetrad beginning in 2014 to one of the spring festivals calculated above of 2021? And so the 7 years of famine, or real tribulation would be from 2021 to 2028? |
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Post by sog on May 27, 2020 8:49:05 GMT -6
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Post by disciple4life on May 28, 2020 22:13:57 GMT -6
Video from Barry Scarbrough discussing what I started this thread with. That is that October this year could be start of tribulation and the rare American solar eclipse which will happen April 8th 2024, thereby completing the "cross" across America would be the mid-point. The mid-point according to Daniel 9 being the Anti-Christ and the Abomination of Desolation. Although he mentions Oct. 8th 2020 instead of 10/28/2020 as the start of tribulation. He is using 3.5 years instead of 1260 prophetic days. That makes a difference. I'm more inclined to use 10/28/2020 because of some other evidence I mentioned in earlier parts of this thread. Read back through that. But is what he says possible? of course. Listen all the way through and make up your own mind. Either way something is happening then, imo. [Edit] He mentions Gary so I included his link. Gary talks about some of it here in his article a little over halfway through. www.unsealed.org/2020/05/an-emergency-government-for-time-of.htmlSo if Pre-trib, the rapture could occur then. Maybe Spring of 2021 at the latest if there is a gap of some sort. Again, based on some of what I posted earlier in this thread. And if Pre-Wrath, then we would probably be here until that April 2024 date or shortly thereafter.
sog ,Joe ,disciple4life ,firefrorefiddle ,Natalie ,venge ,stormyknight ,Gary ,
Incredible video, sog. Lots of things line up. I would like to get your take on why 10/28/2020? What is the significance of that date?
He says he thinks Harpazo is Spring of this 2020. That doesn't work. Spring Feasts are already past - **Leaving the really obscure possibility that we have a Pentecost rapture - which would be this next Sunday, May 31. hmmmmm. Then, all bets are off until Yom Teruah- The feast that "No One Knows the Day or Hour," which is literally "Day of Shouting".
I really think he is on to something big here - a huge huge key to this is the water breaking connected to the Sea of Galilee- which is the first time it has been filled (and overflowed) in over 30 years.
He says that the Tribulation - start of the 7 years - little "t", which he says starts on Oct 8th of 2020.
This also fits perfectly with the theory that we have a rapture -at Feast of Trumpets, and there is a small gap.
***He really goes off the reservation at 45:11 mark and talks about the trumpets being for war- and tries to link 'trumpets/ Feast of trumpets with war - with the second coming, but this is clearly not scriptural at all.
Though Christians disagree on the specific sequence of events - Paul explicitly states that the Harpazo happens at the Last Trumpet, and Rosh Hoshanah has multiple themes - but war is not remotely in them - it's the wedding of the Messiah - Fits perfectly with Christ's parable of the rapture - a wedding. 5 foolish bridesmaids, and it's the day of shouting, and it's the Last Trumpet- Tekia Gadolah - the 100th blast of the shofar when the New Moon is sighted by two witnesses, and Jews everywhere believe Rosh Hoshanah is the resurrection.
***I'd give this video 4 stars for the fantastic concepts - and insight. Some major flaws - which underscore his credibility
He clearly has no clue of the meaning of the very vulgar and offensive word "wussie" which is the combination of "wimp" and "p*##y" -- so vulgar - I can't write it. Just imagine how offensive if he repeatedly used the N-word in his video. hmmm. 
And I have to point out that he is absolutely and categorically wrong in stating that the Jews have committed the Unpardonable sin.  ** Think about it- the unpardonable sin is Unforgiveble - meaning that they cannot be forgiven, and this is explicitly contradictory to what scripture teaches. The Jews who have rejected the Messiah will be given a second chance - **Time of Jacob's Trouble - Not Ashley's Trouble, not Travis' Trouble, Not Brandon's Trouble. [Insert the most American name you can think of - no Bible names allowed. hehehe] There is no difference between Jews who don't accept Christ and devout Catholics who aren't born again, and the tens of millions of religious Americans who believe in God, but don't accept him as Savior, or the millions of Russian atheists. These will be part of the tribulation saints, but most theologians agree that they will be martyred for their faith.
Maranatha,
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 29, 2020 6:29:35 GMT -6
Actually, all raptures have happened at Pentecost. Enoch, Noah (Ark above the water), and Jesus. So there is the possibility that the Church could be raptured too on Pentecost. Not setting a date but just saying that if there was any high watch time, Pentecost would be the one to look out for.
Why would Pentecost not be considered a Spring event? It does take place before the summer solstice.
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Post by nana on May 29, 2020 8:08:57 GMT -6
Depending on how/when the calendar was started at Passover, Pentecost could start as late as June 6/7. Maybe a June wedding? In any case I will be on high watch from now until Trumpets if we are still here after Pentecost.
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Post by disciple4life on May 29, 2020 21:36:09 GMT -6
Actually, all raptures have happened at Pentecost. Enoch, Noah (Ark above the water), and Jesus. So there is the possibility that the Church could be raptured too on Pentecost. Not setting a date but just saying that if there was any high watch time, Pentecost would be the one to look out for. Why would Pentecost not be considered a Spring event? It does take place before the summer solstice. So some clarification, my dear fellow Otter friend. ;-) Pentecost would be/ is, a late Spring Event, - according to the Modern western calendar, but my point is that it doesn't correspond to anything Paul said or the explicitly clear teachings of Christ and John in Revelation- regarding the last trumpet, and the feast when No One Knows the Day or the Hour, and John's description of the Shout, and the door of heaven being opened, nor is Pentecost a wedding, and it's not connected in any way to the door of heaven opened. ****all the clues harmonize perfectly and all point to only one event - Feast of Trumpets.
Pentecost is the First Trumpet, Yom Teruah/Rosh Hoshanah is the Last trumpet, and Day of Atonement/Jubilee is the Great Trumpet, and so it would mean that Paul and Christ were trying to trick us.
Also, Joe, can you please clarify/ explain what you mean when you say all raptures happened at Pentecost. ?? When you say raptures - I understand you to mean "harpazo" when we are caught up quickly , ??
Jesus' resurrection was not at Pentecost - it was on First Fruits - and then Pentecost was 50 days later, on Feast of weeks, and Christ's ascension was 40 days later ,[40 days after First fruits] so his ascension was also not on Pentecost, nor was the rapture /Harpazo of Phillip [the other passage where this word is used]. *actually scripture doesn't say anything regarding the date of Philip's harpazo.
Maranatha,
disciple4life
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Joe
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Post by Joe on May 30, 2020 6:51:00 GMT -6
disciple4life, I agree with all that you are saying and have heard that myself for years. Recently though, I have thought about, what if it does happen on Pentecost. You are correct about Jesus ascension and that it was 40 days after and not 50. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That is what makes me wondered if that is when the Holy Spirit will be gathered back up to Him. And all those who are filled with the Holy Spirit will be gathered/raptured too? As for the last "Trump". I'm not sure it is an actual trumpet or it means "last call" before judgement comes to the world. Something to consider as it was not fully written out as trumpet. Also, the day and hour no one knows could be referring to the feast or could could be that it will happen at a moment you don't know exactly. Even though you know it is near.
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Post by disciple4life on May 30, 2020 8:54:27 GMT -6
disciple4life , I agree with all that you are saying and have heard that myself for years. Recently though, I have thought about, what if it does happen on Pentecost. You are correct about Jesus ascension and that it was 40 days after and not 50. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That is what makes me wondered if that is when the Holy Spirit will be gathered back up to Him. And all those who are filled with the Holy Spirit will be gathered/raptured too? As for the last "Trump". I'm not sure it is an actual trumpet or it means "last call" before judgement comes to the world. Something to consider as it was not fully written out as trumpet. Also, the day and hour no one knows could be referring to the feast or could could be that it will happen at a moment you don't know exactly. Even though you know it is near. Hello again- thanks for the clarification regarding ascension.
I hope it doesn't sound or feel like I'm arguing - just one otter to another- sharing thoughts, and I like to be precise.
In the very well-known passage by Paul to the Mixed Jewish/Gentile church in Corinth, he tells them about the events that accompany the rapture. Some believers in the Early church had thought that maybe the rapture had already happened, and Paul is making clear the things that must/will happen so that they can be confident and watch - that we/they as Christ-followers will not be surprised by this - like a thief in the night  ** a clear and instantly recognizable reference to the Captain of the Temple Guard, who was referred to as A Thief in the Night. ** Just as Uncle Sam is explicitly clear and instantly recognizable to all Americans over age 12.
One of the first, most foundational principals of Hermaneutics is this -- 'Before we can ask "What does this passage mean to us [Americans in our 21st Century American pop culture] we have to ask, - What did it mean to them, then - Jews, in 1st Century Jerusalem/Corinth/
In this famous passage - 1 Corinthians 15:52 www.blueletterbible.org/esv/1co/15/52/p0/t_concf_1077052 Paul uses a phrase that is explicitly clear and instantly recognizable from their culture and their time, and their geographical context. He uses "the Last Trumpet" and just as every American understands what Uncle Sam and Turkey Day means - No confusion or ambiguity, the audience instantly recognized this as Tekia Gadolah - the 100th blast of the trumpet which happens on Feast of Trumpets. No other feast has a series of trumpet blasts, with one distinctly different "last trumpet".
**This is ginormously significant to all believers - but specifically to us as watchers- sheepdogs, because when we gather the clues that Paul gave, and then make a group of clues that Christ himself gave- and then make a group of clues that John Uses and then a group of clues that the OT prophets used- which the early church believers were aware of - then it's like letters written on 4 different transparency slides -- individually they are disconnected, and meaningless, but only when we overlay them and line them up exactly, we can see that the lines all connect and are all one and the same.
This concept above of the harmonizing of all the clues of the Hebrew wedding, Groom comes with a Shout, at the last Trumpet, on the feast when No One Knows the Day or Hour, at the Wedding of the Messiah, - the day Jews believe the great resurrection happens, the day that the door of heaven is opened, and the coronation of the King, and that the Children of the Day will not be surprised -- this is the reason why we can see that there is not an iota of scripture that supports the notion of an imminent/surprise any day rapture.
Either Paul and Christ were intentionally trying to trick us- deceive us by giving explicitly clear clues that were clearly understandable to the audience, Independence Day/ Turkey Day, or else they are given as a sign to us - those who are not asleep, but are children of the day.
It's impossible to believe in an imminent rapture [for which there is no scriptural support when we overlay the clues of the transparency sheets] and at the same time believe the words of Christ and Paul. The two are mutually exclusive.
-Since we know that scripture never contradicts itself, we have to conclude that imminent rapture is not scriptural, and reject it outright.
Imagine driving on a six lane freeway in rush hour and no signs at the exit ramps. How would any sane logical person know their exit without a sign.?? You can be alert, but without a specific indicator one exit takes you to Altanta, the other takes you to Albany, -- Two very very different destinations.
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** a clear and instantly recognizable reference to the Captain of the Temple Guard, who was referred to as A Thief in the Night. ** Just as Uncle Sam is explicitly clear and instantly recognizable to all Americans over age 12.