gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 14, 2020 0:57:50 GMT -6
In the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Church at Thessalonica, he told them that before the Rapture would occur an event would take place that would leave no doubt of the impending Rapture. He told them to watch for "the dead in Christ to rise first"!
I Thes. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
This is an event that will mimic an event that took place at the time of Jesus' resurrection and is recorded in the Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 27, and verses 52& 53.
Matt 27:52,53
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which were dead arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Known dead people will be brought back to life in a 'spiritual' body and appear to living people in Jerusalem. That is the Gospel account of what happened the first time, and it is what Paul is empathically explaining to watch for this time.
Additionally the Gospel records, that after Jesus raised from the dead He remained on earth for 40 days and then He ascended into heaven. Paul is explaining that this is the same sequence of events that will take place at the time of the Rapture of the Church. He is demonstrating that the Ascension of Jesus into heaven is indisputably linked as a foreshadow to the Rapture of the Church. And, because the Church is called the Body of Christ this is said to be the 'Body of Christ' going up into heaven in both instances.
Paul is also saying that from the time the 'dead in Christ' raise from the dead this time, they will stay on earth for 40 days [just like their predecessors did in Matthew 27: 52,53] and then they will be Raptured along with those that are a live and waiting for the 40th day to arrive. The living are waiting for the 40th day because they knew the warning sign had taken place 40 days prior.
And lastly, Paul sets the timing for both the 'dead in Christ to rise' as well as the Rapture when he says that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the Jewish Feast of First Fruits and ascended 40 days later. That interpolates into the 'dead in Christ' will rise this time on the Jewish Feast of First Fruits and the Rapture of the Church will happen 40 days later. And all that comes together to say that the WARNING SIGN for the Rapture of the Church is the 'dead in Christ' rising on First Fruits!
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Post by mike on Jan 14, 2020 6:11:12 GMT -6
Hello gregg welcome to the forum. So in the above you are stating that the rapture will occur with the dead rising first, then 40 days later those alive and remaining will be caught up together with those who were resurrected 40 days earlier? Would this resurrection include all those who died in Christ up to that particular day? For example if the resurrection occurred tomorrow, every Christian who had died prior to that would rise? OR are you saying only those who believed while Christ was on earth? (Just making sure I understand your point). |
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Post by fitz on Jan 14, 2020 6:57:10 GMT -6
Welcome Gregg,
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Nothing about us meeting them here on earth. Just sayin'.
They rise, after they are raised and we are caught up (at the same time) with them...into the air.
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Post by mike on Jan 14, 2020 7:20:23 GMT -6
fitz - thanks for making me look at the verses again  I simply love this! If we believe...I couple this with 1 Cor 15:13-14 - If this didnt actually happen, then we are dead in our sins, our faith is in vain (v. 17). Why believe if we will not rise again! 1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
So those who have died before those who are alive and remain will return with Christ in the clouds. I deduce from that they which are coming with Him will be united or reunited with their new body. And those alive and remaining will be changed. Those who have gone on before us have been separated from a physical body, while those remaining have not. The resurrection, the 'planted seed' will sprout into its eternal body and reunite with the spirit/soul. But those remaining alive are simply 'changed'. Does this happen consecutively, in a moment, together in succession with the only delay being that of a fraction of a second? OR as Gregg seems to propose 40 day delay for those alive and remaining?
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Post by yardstick on Jan 14, 2020 22:26:31 GMT -6
gregg, mike, fitz, Based upon this hypothesis, I have to ask: Is Christ going to be hanging around in the clouds for 40 days, or are the dead in Christ going up first and then coming back to get the rest of us? Next question: What will the dead in Christ be doing for 40 days while the rest of us down here wait it out?
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 14, 2020 23:57:54 GMT -6
Matt 27:52,53: 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which were dead arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. This scripture is revealing that after Jesus was raised from the dead many others were also raised back to life. And they went into Jerusalem [the holy city] and appeared to many other people. Their purpose in appearing 'unto many' was as a witness that they themselves had been raised from the dead, and to proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah. And 40 days after their resurrections they ascended to Heaven with Jesus. So here we have Matt 27:52,53 as the substance casting a shadow into the future when another group of dead people, referred to as the 'dead in Christ' of Paul's Thessalonian letter, would 'rise first', and be a witness in Jerusalem as their predecessors were, and then 40 days later they will be joined by the living in Christ and together they all will ascend to Heaven in the Rapture. And thus the Rapture will have a 40-DAY WARNING period. gregg, mike, fitz, yardstick, |
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Post by mike on Jan 15, 2020 6:04:17 GMT -6
Matt 27:52,53: 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which were dead arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. And 40 days after their resurrections they ascended to Heaven with Jesus.Gregg, would you show me where the bible says these that rose ascended? I dont recall seeing/reading if they rose and ascended or rose like Lazarus and eventually died (again). To my knowledge (which can very well be incorrect) we only have 3 examples of people ascending to heaven (Enoch, Elijah, Jesus) with one having died, the other two not experiencing death that we can confirm scripturally. |
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 16, 2020 19:52:39 GMT -6
mike , Yes Enoch, Elijah, the two olive branches or (the two witnesses) as I think they are. When Peter stands up and preaches Christ on day 50 Pentecost the new offering is made, the result is 3000 are born into the church that day. The only answer for me is something influenced these people during the time between resurection and Pentecost. There were more people of different languages than there were apostles to speak them let along to understand them. There is no record of them ascending with Jesus. They were part of the first fruits wave offering. The promise of the full harvest yet to come. Jesus told the other thief being crucified with Him "today you shall be with me in paradise". I put the gospels together sequentially the best I could and put them on my website, for myself in the beginning cause I just got tired of reading 4 gospels at the same time flipping pages back and forth and try to remember where I left off. Let me know if you come up with any clues! Gregg
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 16, 2020 23:40:57 GMT -6
mikeThis should clear up some questions about the risen saints on first fruits. On that day of First Fruits after Jesus rose, other saints came out of the graves that opened and went into the Holy City (Jerusalem) and were reported by Matthew (27:51-52) that many rose and were seen by many in Jerusalem. Jesus is the First Fruits of resurrection and the many saints that followed Him out of their graves were the promise of the full harvest yet to come. Now Matthew doesn’t mention any more about these risen saints, but intuitive reasoning tells us what they are doing, and scripture tells us what happens to them. We know that Jesus was going about visiting all of His friends and telling them of the resurrection and its meaning. I’m sure that those other folks were doing the same thing. I think they account for most of the 3,000 who came to Jesus at Peter’s first alter call on Pentecost just a few weeks after those same God-fearing citizens were screaming for His blood, and calling for the release of the criminal Barabas. These same folks are identified by Isaiah in chapter 61. He said that Jesus came to, among other things, set the captives free. Psalm 68:18 says that when He ascended on high, He took them captive to Himself which is confirmed at Ephesians 4:8. Therein lies a picture of the Rapture. Forty days after they rise on First Fruits, fulfilling the 40-day warning period of Jonah, Jesus ascends back to heaven taking with Him the captives that He set free by His death and resurrection. And, when Jesus ascends back to heaven, His mission as the Messiah is complete. Ten days later on Pentecost, Peter offers Him as Messiah to the Jews for the very first time, and now all the Spring feasts are fulfilled by Jesus.
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Post by boraddict on Jan 17, 2020 2:43:00 GMT -6
Welcome gregg.
As I was reading this thread I could not help but notice that the dead coming forth into the sky is preceded by 1) the Savior's "shout" (cry of command), 2) "with the voice of the archangel," 3) "and the trump of God" (1 Thes. 4:16).
That is, the Savior gives a command and then the archangel speaks and then the trump of God.
Notice that the three members of the Godhead are represented and the center position that is usually held by the Savior is held by the archangel. Thus, after the Savior gives the command then the archangel sounds and lastly the trump of God. These three actions are repeated in several locations throughout the Book of Revelation but not in a clear and concise statement. For example, Rev. 14:18 shows the Savior as the one coming from the altar giving a command to the angel with the sickle, Rev. 16:1 shows the Savior as the "great voice" instructing the seven angels to pour their vials of wrath, and Rev. 8:5 shows the Savior as an angel filling the censor with the fire of the altar. In all three instances the tribulation has been underway for sometime and this indicates that the calling forth of the dead is harmonious to the destruction of the earth at the end of the 7 years.
The type of this event is Noah and the ark wherein the ark was lifted during the rain storm. Thus, in our time the saints are lifted at the great earthquake and falling rocks (Rev. 16:18-21) at the end of the 7 years. However, prior to this at the beginning of the 7 years is the rapture that is not the great climatic rapture but one wherein the saints are taken to the marriage supper prior to the war with the beast in Rev. 19. These saints are called out after the fall of Babylon (Rev. 18:4).
If I am correct, then there is the rapture that precedes the marriage for the purpose of putting down the beast as referenced in Rev. 15:2, followed by the rapture that includes the dead 7 years later.
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Post by mike on Jan 17, 2020 7:12:09 GMT -6
Hi gregg and thanks for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand your viewpoint. Although you have laid out your view I am still not seeing it in the scripture as you present. Writing sometimes has a way of not characterizing points as well as we mean them, so please bare with me as I try to see your point and ask further questions. Matt 27:51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.So this says that as the curtain was torn, tombs were opened and many saints were raised. But they hung around their tombs until after His resurrection. Agree? or does it say something else? OR Did some come forth out of the tombs at the crucifixion and some after the resurrection? There is no record although I would think there would or should have been. If we go to Acts 1:9-11 it wouldn't be a stretch for Luke to record the Lords ascension with mention of others rising with Him. I mean what a sight it was in the first place to see the Lord floating up out of sight! None of the other witnesses make any mention of those others. Realizing they witnessed the Lord of Glory rise perhaps this was just not recorded for specific reasons only the Holy Spirit knows at this time. (Fully speculating of course as it isn't recorded what happened to those who rose.) However they could have been part of the wave offering (or it was just Jesus). I do not see that your view addressed yardstick 's question about what Jesus is doing during the 40 days after the dead rise, before those alive and remaining are changed. Do you have a 'theory' on that? Did I miss it(sorry)?This would create quite the scene here on earth, wouldn't it!? Those believers who are remaining would be also be part of the witness along with the risen dead. Imagine this Gregg, millions of tombs opened, ashes regathering from the ocean and wherever they were scattered (maybe even that corner of Giants stadium would explode and out comes Hoffa -  ) What would the unbelieving world do with this? Millions if not billions of resurrected saints walking the earth witnessing? Coupled with those remaining who believe? WOW! Makes me wonder what happens to those who believe during that 40 days? Would all of Israel change their mind about the Messiah? WOW!I purchased a chronological bible for this same reason. What a help that was in seeing the synoptic sections putting together full stories without flipping around! Also extremely helpful in 1&2 Chronicles, 1&2 Kings, plus Isaiah, Jeremiah and the prophets. Very helpful to see who the prophets spoke to during their reign as king(s). |
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 18, 2020 17:10:56 GMT -6
gregg, mike, fitz, yardstick, boraddict, The significance of the dead that rose after Christ is that they were the revealed token that showed the promise of the full harvest yet to come fulfilled by the harvester, Christ, and the part they play in the shadow that is reflected in the future for the Church is taught by Paul to the Thessalonians. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the air to be with the Lord forever. Many of the dead in Christ of the end time are going to rise first. Before hand, just like they did when they cast this shadow. And when they do, they will be doing the same thing as their counterparts did after they rose. For 40 days they will be seen in Jerusalem, warning the Jews to repent and follow Jesus, the true Messiah before it’s too late and God’s wrath, known to them through their prophets, falls on them. Paul taught Christians to be watching at the end time in order to see the elements of the prophecies occurring, so we can alert the others to what we see. But, this is the Jews show that’s being played out on the stage, so we must be watching them if we are to see this warning sign that the close of the Church Age is only 40 days away. The 40 days warning of the Jonah landscape, and the return to save from destruction in the Messiah landscape, are the only components left unfulfilled. Those two elements complete the landscape of the Rapture.
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 18, 2020 17:45:16 GMT -6
yardstick, In 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 address "concerning them which are asleep" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (and I might add go into Jerusalem and preach Christ for 40 days) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. What will the the Lord be doing and those who are with Him, in the clouds? I don't know and I don't care! I am going to be watching the Jews and Jerusalem. Gregg
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 18, 2020 18:22:17 GMT -6
gregg, mike, fitz, yardstick, boraddict, DANIEL IS THE ALARM Daniel’s prophecy holds the key to the timing of the end times, and thus to the Rapture, because it was the only prophecy that God sealed tight until the time of the end. That was done specifically to alert those living in that day that the final leg of the human journey had begun. In the study of Daniel we learn that the Mideast was the location of the final action and the events leading up to peace with temple mount rights was the key. We learn that the timing for peace has to be close to Pentecost, because the new offering of the Messiah, the completion of Gods work, to the Jews (which went to the Church), happens on Pentecost. Thus, the resumption of the Abraham covenant, which has been held in limbo these many years, cannot begin again until the Messiah completes His covenant with the Church on Ascension Day, opening the way for His return, with them, to end the time of trouble and usher in the Reign of Christ on Earth.
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Post by yardstick on Jan 20, 2020 20:30:47 GMT -6
yardstick , In 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 4:18 address "concerning them which are asleep" For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (and I might add go into Jerusalem and preach Christ for 40 days) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. What will the the Lord be doing and those who are with Him, in the clouds? I don't know and I don't care! I am going to be watching the Jews and Jerusalem. Gregg Without intending to dampen your enthusiasm, may I ask you to post the quotes (using the quote button in the create post or edit post section above). to populate your hypothesis with some scripture? Many here are familiar with the passage in Thessalonians you cited above. What I would really like to see is what scriptures you use to base your 40 day hypothesis on. It is an interesting hypothesis; and where scripture is silent we have a little wiggle room to give our perspectives and make cogent points from logic and reason et c. The only wall I am running into right now, is that I know of no place in Scripture where the harpazo involves raising the dead followed by a delay while they walk around witnessing before being caught up. The Thessalonians passage truly does not give a set explicit timeline, and so I can see where one might draw the 40 days conclusion. However, neither Revelation, nor Daniel, nor any other prophetic book, or passage I know of gives that piece of information. It would be a great help to understanding you hypothesis, if you could provide that info. One thing also of note, is the general effect your hypothesis could have on the understanding of a pre-trib, mnid- or pre-wrath perspective. Have you considered these in light of your study? Which of these would your hypothesis best fit into? Or should it be placed in a Post-Trib view? |
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) What would the unbelieving world do with this? Millions if not billions of resurrected saints walking the earth witnessing? Coupled with those remaining who believe? WOW! Makes me wonder what happens to those who believe during that 40 days? Would all of Israel change their mind about the Messiah? WOW!