gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 23, 2020 9:45:03 GMT -6
yardstick, The quote button is not here when I use the quick reply, I'll have to practice using that to know what it does. Without going into a long dissertation about what I've been talking about. The short version is Paul the Apostle to the gentiles is taught by Christ everything beginning to end about the church. He teaches "substance and shadow" Jesus is clearly defining the 'substance' in Jonah's life that is casting the 'shadow' into the future of how to identify the Messiah when he comes; namely, death and the remaining in the tomb for three days, and resurrection back to life on the third day. The Feasts Of The Jews Additionally, by His death, burial and resurrection, Jesus is simultaneously fulfilling [as the substance] another group of shadows that were cast by God for the Jews. They are known as the Feasts of the Jews. These are the 'set times' established by God for the Jews and were partially intended for them to be able to recognize their Messiah when He came. The Apostle Paul speaks directly to this issue when speaking about the Feasts he says in Col 2:17: There are Seven Feasts of the Jews given to them by God through Moses. Jesus fulfilled the first four at His first coming. They include: Jewish Feast And "Shadow" Cast Passover: Salvation - Blood - Obedience Unleavened Bread: Overcoming corruption and evil First Fruits: Presenting a sheaf of wheat from the first harvest Pentecost: New offering 50 days after First Fruits of the completed loaf of bread from the sheaf of wheat Jesus Fulfills As "Substance" Passover: Jesus provides salvation through His blood Unleavened Bread: Jesus overcame corruption and evil but not for himself First Fruits: Jesus is the sheaf of the first harvest of Resurrection Pentecost: Jesus was the new offering made by the Apostles 50 days after First Fruits And even though Jesus fulfilled these additional signs of their Messiah, the Jews still would not accept Him. And the Apostle John confirms this in John 1:11 which states: "He came unto his own, and his own received him not." This is why God revealed the mystery of the Church to Paul. The Jews refused God's Messiah, so God called on Paul to establish the Christian Church who would accept Jesus as their Messiah. It is at this time that God looked upon the Nation Israel as separate from the Church and referred to the Church as the grafted on branch of the tree of the root of Abraham. Paul makes this very clear in Romans 11:16-22 where he explains that the "setting aside" of National Israel is like a nurseryman cutting off natural branches to allow for the grafting in of unnatural branches. The unnatural branch is the Christian Church! For their reward for accepting Jesus as the Messiah, the Christian Church, which the Apostle Paul calls the 'Body of Christ', is promised to be taken off of this planet and taken to Heaven just prior to a seven year time period of great tribulation on the earth, which is called the wrath of God. The event of these Christians being taken off the earth or disappearing is called the Rapture of the Church.
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 23, 2020 9:47:57 GMT -6
40 Day Warning Sign Of The Rapture
The 'substance and shadow' of God's word also reveals the WARNING sign that precedes the Rapture by 40 days. The Apostle Paul when writing to the Thessalonian Church regarding the Rapture says:
I Thes. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
These 'dead in Christ' will rise 40 days before the Rapture, and they will go into Jerusalem and witness to living people that Jesus is the Messiah. How do I know this? Because it happened before! In the Gospel of Matthew where it is talking about Jesus coming out of the tomb it says:
Matt 27:52,53:
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which were dead arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
This scripture is revealing that after Jesus was raised from the dead many others were also raised back to life. And they went into Jerusalem [the holy city] and appeared to many other people. Their purpose in appearing 'unto many' was as a witness that they themselves had been raised from the dead, and to proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah. And 40 days after their resurrections they ascended to Heaven with Jesus.
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Post by yardstick on Jan 23, 2020 22:34:36 GMT -6
40 Day Warning Sign Of The Rapture The 'substance and shadow' of God's word also reveals the WARNING sign that precedes the Rapture by 40 days. The Apostle Paul when writing to the Thessalonian Church regarding the Rapture says: I Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. These 'dead in Christ' will rise 40 days before the Rapture, and they will go into Jerusalem and witness to living people that Jesus is the Messiah. How do I know this? Because it happened before! In the Gospel of Matthew where it is talking about Jesus coming out of the tomb it says: Matt 27:52,53: 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which were dead arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. This scripture is revealing that after Jesus was raised from the dead many others were also raised back to life. And they went into Jerusalem [the holy city] and appeared to many other people. Their purpose in appearing 'unto many' was as a witness that they themselves had been raised from the dead, and to proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah. And 40 days after their resurrections they ascended to Heaven with Jesus. okay, I can see where you are coming from on your hypothesis, but I need to ask a few questions: 1. As a practical matter, approximately how many people (do you believe) have died in Christ since he began his ministry (leaving out people like Abraham, David, and other old testament 'believers')? Would you estimate that number to be in the millions? billions? To give a sense of scale, the current population of Jerusalem (metro) is 1.2M people, and the city proper is 900k. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem) Unless we limit the number of believers who are resurrected (and thus, the number of people who became believers over the course of the last 2000 years- which would then be considerably less than what most modern day believers estimate), would you consider the possibility that a population increase from 1.2M to 10M over the course of a 40 day interval might be noticeable (amongst other things)? How about 1.2M to 1 Billion (the US population is approx 375M)? Do you think, as a practical matter, that the population increase would be rather noticeable? HOw would that many people fit into a city that size? Do you think this estimation has a kind of common sense to it? 2. You have not answered the question i previously posed, namely (and assuming 1 above is plausible, meaning that the resurrected are not walking around, but they are resurrected) what would Jesus and the resurrected believers be doing in the clouds for 40 days? Keeping in mind that there is no current valid hypothesis that I know of that indicates Christ comes, gets the dead, takes them to heaven and comes back again... Also keeping in mind the possibility under this hypothesis that the dead go straight to heaven, while Christ waits in the clouds for the rest of us. 3. Is there any passage of scripture which shows another example similar to Matt 27:53 where the time frame from the causative event preceding the dead rising was 40 days? Verses 51-52 seem to indicate that the resurrection you are talking about occurred at the moment of Christ's death. |
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Post by yardstick on Jan 23, 2020 22:53:38 GMT -6
yardstick , The quote button is not here when I use the quick reply, I'll have to practice using that to know what it does... Use the regular orange reply button in the upper right corner, rather than the "post quick reply" button (in the bottom left corner) to access the formatting buttons. |
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 25, 2020 1:18:33 GMT -6
yardstick , Oh, so thats how that works! So we both agree on the dead rising! I don't believe its everyone who ever existed called Christians, because of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Just like in Mathew in Jerusalem they went into the city and witnessed that Jesus is the Messiah, for 40 days. Just like Joana did to the Ninevite's, cause Jesus told the Jews that were seeking a sign from Him "you get the sign of the prophet Joana The sequence that does make sense with Jewish Feasts is, Passover, first fruits, ascension (not a Jewish Feast), Pentecost. And because of the Mideast being what it is now, on the verge of something, 1948 Israel the fig tree, a generation being 70 to 80 max in psalms, minus 7 yr tribulation for gods wrath (not on His Son twice ) brings you to 2021 on the Gregorian calendar. This year is the same sequence of Jewish Feasts. The hindering force is the Church(body of Christ) is in the way. God cannot complete the Jewish covenant with Church covenant here. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 I believe is for the Jews. And 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is for the end of the Church covenant. Paul said to watch and Warn others!
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 25, 2020 9:33:00 GMT -6
Paul is also saying that from the time the 'dead in Christ' raise from the dead this time, they will stay on earth for 40 days [just like their predecessors did in Matthew 27: 52,53] and then they will be Raptured along with those that are a live and waiting for the 40th day to arrive. The living are waiting for the 40th day because they knew the warning sign had taken place 40 days prior. And lastly, Paul sets the timing for both the 'dead in Christ to rise' as well as the Rapture when he says that Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the Jewish Feast of First Fruits and ascended 40 days later. That interpolates into the 'dead in Christ' will rise this time on the Jewish Feast of First Fruits and the Rapture of the Church will happen 40 days later. And all that comes together to say that the WARNING SIGN for the Rapture of the Church is the 'dead in Christ' rising on First Fruits! Hello My Brother,
Welcome to the forum, ;-) - Disciple4life here. Your Scots-Irish-French-Jewish-American brother in Tennessee. ;-) I'm Otter/ Expressive personality - so I love to engage with people, but sometimes, on these forums, and online formats, a lot is lost in typed communication. As you know, on this forum, there a lot of different people with different views and backgrounds, and no one [almost no one] claims to have all the pieces of the puzzle.
So we throw out ideas and hunches and our take on things and then others take it apart, break it down and throw it back.. This back and forth often can seem confrontational - but it really helps sharpen us. So, disclaimer done
I really love your take that there will be a warning for the rapture.  Of course this fits totally in line /matches both the accounts that Christ gave for examples of the second advent [ rapture, tribulation and subsequent second coming] Noah, and Lot, - He could have chosen dozens of OT examples of God judging /punishing the wicked. As you know - [there is at least one thread on this topic] -- these passages have almost nothing in common. Different region, one was global one was a city, one was specific sins, one was universal depravity, different time periods, different forms of punishment, etc, etc,
Aside from the fact that both were wickedness - the only thing they have in common is that in both cases -- likened to the Second Advent -- the righteous watchers were warned. [And saved -- spared from the judgment. Hmmmm.
However, I have several questions. Please don't take it as combative. There is nothing in this text or any other passage that says that because Jesus did something that we can assume that it will be the same way with us or anyone. - ***This is one of the biggest flaws of the prosperity gospel heresy. Christ himself didn't even heal everyone, but even if he had, it doesn't mean that everyone will be/ should be healed.
Gregg wrote "Paul is also saying that from the time the 'dead in Christ' raise from the dead this time, they will stay on earth for 40 days." I don't see this in this text or anywhere.
If we apply basic hermeneutics and take a straight forward approach - what does the text plainly say. We see the dead in Christ rising first. The straight reading of the text and connecting word, "then" does not imply a long delay, -- quite the opposite.
Is there/ Will there be some delay. ?? It's possible, but it would mean that the dead in Christ are just hanging out in the sky - so an hour -- floating in the clouds -- Three days and 3 nights ?? Seven days and Seven nights. 40 days ??
Then when we still use the basic rules of Hermeneutics and look at the Grammatical and linguistic context - the word is Harpazo, -- to be caught up, snatched up quickly. When we cross - reference this with other passages -- [Scripture interprets scripture] Paul said that this would be in the twinkling of an eye. Nothing suggests or implies any delay or gap between the dead in Christ rising, and the subsequent catching up, snatching up [Rapture] of the saints.
Lastly, while I see and really appreciate your use of the 40 - Its the number of testing ;-) and I really really agree with you that the Harpazo happens on a Feast day - [Because scripture gives us multiple clear clues that it does- ] IMHO, it is not First Fruits, for several very clear and significant reasons.
The first four feasts - for those keeping score at home --- Are Passover, then Feast of Unleavened Bread, then First Fruits, and then Pentecost. - The First four Feasts are all in the Spring -- and when we look at them closely, we see several very important points.
- They are all very close together - a few days for the first three, and then 50 days to Pentecost -
- They are all inseparably linked to Christ's first Advent, and were all fulfilled in perfect order and in precision - on the exact day.
- These feasts have all ready been fulfilled - Then there is a large gap. Hmmmmm.
- Then, we have the Fall Feasts -- *** The Fall feasts are also very close together. Less than one month.
- The Fall feasts are inseparably linked with the Second coming [For those keeping track at home - a long gap in between the First Advent and the Second Advent ] -- And the next on the list - that hasn't been fulfilled is Feast of Trumpets, - Yom Teruah.
- **** This is huge- FOT is also the Day of Shouting. [Bridegroom came with a Shout. Paul said that Christ will come with a Shout. ] hmmmm.
- Jews believe that the Great Resurrection will happen on Feast of Trumpets - Feast of Trumpets is also more widely known as Rosh Hashannah, Head of the Jewish civil new Year.
- This Holiday / Feast has multiple themes, - a Wedding, The Day of Coronation, The Day Jews believe the Resurrection will happen, the Day the door of heaven is Opened, and The Day that No One Knows the Day or the Hour - It's a Two Day feast, because of all the feasts, -its the only one that starts on the sighting of the New Moon, and there has to be two witnesses in Jerusalem, who are questioned by the Sanhedrin.
- It's also the Last Trumpet.
  There are 99 blasts of the Shofar - Alternating long, drawn out series of blasts and short, rapid staccato blasts - then there is the Last Trumpet - the 100th blast which is the longest blast - held out as long as the trumpeter has breath. It even has a special name in Hebrew. Tekia ha Gadol. - The Feasts are Moadim- which literally means "appointed times", Another meaning for this word, Moadim is "rehearsal". As in Wedding Rehearsal. What is a rehearsal??
- What do you think it means that the feasts are a rehearsal ?? Paul said that the feasts are a shadow [rehearsal] of things to come - and they all point to the Messiah. ;-)
Maranatha. I'm not dogmatic on what the warning will be, or if it will be 7 days, as in the days of Noah, but I lean towards a huge earthquake - but I firmly believe that when it happens, all of us who are like the bridesmaids who were watching, we will recognize this - and as Paul said, -- For us who are Children of the Day, - the Day of Christ will not surprise us like a thief in the Night.
Disciple4life
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 25, 2020 10:00:15 GMT -6
Jesus is the First Fruits of resurrection and the many saints that followed Him out of their graves were the promise of the full harvest yet to come. Now Matthew doesn’t mention any more about these risen saints, but intuitive reasoning tells us what they are doing, and scripture tells us what happens to them.We know that Jesus was going about visiting all of His friends and telling them of the resurrection and its meaning. I’m sure that those other folks were doing the same thing. I think they account for most of the 3,000 who came to Jesus at Peter’s first alter call on Pentecost just a few weeks after those same God-fearing citizens were screaming for His blood, and calling for the release of the criminal Barabas. These same folks are identified by Isaiah in chapter 61. He said that Jesus came to, among other things, set the captives free. Psalm 68:18 says that when He ascended on high, He took them captive to Himself which is confirmed at Ephesians 4:8. Therein lies a picture of the Rapture. Forty days after they rise on First Fruits, fulfilling the 40-day warning period of Jonah, Gregg, Disciple4life here again. I wanted to make the point that you have so many things that I really like in your thread, on several levels - several streams of thought that really resonate with me, and my positions. To be specific, the warning for the rapture, for those of us who are watching, your understanding of the Feasts, and your view that the rapture is inseparably linked to the feasts - just to name a few. ;-) I'm uploading a huge batch of Cheese Grits and fried okra.
Being an otter, (expressive) I have opinions on most subjects, but I don't always articulate them precisely on the first or second try. So please don't interpret my feedback as combative. I really hope that we can have great dialogue from this thread. Explore the notion of the warning, and what that could look like, etc. Why you also believe this? what shaped this opinion?
On this site, there are lots of threads where I and others make lots of guesses, and we share theories about different possible scenarios - Anti-Christ, 3rd Temple, What's in the Deal of the Century, Is the AC alive now, and is he Jewish, and could Elvis be one of the Two Witnesses. ?? It's fine and it's fun !! We all recognize that we are speculating - Why? We are not speculating about something that is just not revealed from scripture. Lots of ideas.
The difference is when we interpret scripture, - scripture can never mean what it never said. Scripture was written in the language of farmers and fishermen and should be taken literally. To read something into the scripture that is not there is Eisegesis.
Exegesis is to draw out - which is the basic rule for Hermeneutics. Here, you have read into the text something that it doesn't say. There is no text anywhere that says those saints were resurrected with Christ 40 days later. This is Eisegesis- To read something into the text that is not there.
Gregg wrote "It also is not intuitive reasoning what they were doing." Did they all take jobs in the market? Did they all travel together and tell their shared experiences to people in other cities?? Maybe they recorded their experiences and this record was just not found with the other dead sea scrolls in Qumran?? Maybe they lived 20 more years and all died of freak accidents the same exact day at the exact same time in 30 different cities. ?? Seem like a stretch. ?? Yeah.
I don't mean to be snide - but simply to make the point that we have no idea what they did, nor if they were resurrected, and if so, all at the same time and all with Christ 40 days later, or at the next Feast of Booths?? To make any of these cases is as much conjecture as the other.
It is just as likely and valid a theory that all those who resurrected lived 5 more years and then all of them (how many were there - 12?? , good number, or maybe 33) had such a life-changing experience they formed a group of disciples and re-settled in Egypt where they lived out their days and then all died of a plague. How can you or I be sure/ adamant that one is more probable or likely when the text says nothing other than some were resurrected, went to Jerusalem and appeared to others.
It is for the same reasons, Gregg, that we can't read things into scripture. It leads to all kinds of flawed doctrine and taken to extreme, leads to false doctrine that leads people away from the Gospel -- prosperity gospel. People read things into scripture that it neither says or implies.
Cheers, Disciple4life
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 25, 2020 18:52:43 GMT -6
gregg, yardstick, disciple4life, How do you post that...is that a quote box of what I said? Yardstick show me how to use the orange reply button on the right. Which opens like a word doc type box which is cool.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 25, 2020 19:03:23 GMT -6
Hello friend,
I don't know how to use the quote feature properly, here's what I do instead. I hope someone can explain to both of us how to use it. LOL.
I just use the quote button in the upper right corner, by the settings gear and the "like" thumbs up icon.
Then, it puts your entire post in a special box, so it is clear that it's a quote by you.
Then, I put the cursor inside the quote box in the new reply, and just delete out all the other stuff of the quote that is not relevant. ;-)
Yeah, I know there is a simpler way - I just don't know what it is.
Cheers,
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Post by Natalie on Jan 25, 2020 19:13:16 GMT -6
gregg, you can also just mess around with the buttons to see what they do. You can use the one that looks like a speech bubble and says "quote". When the reply box comes up, you should be able to also scroll down to what others have typed. They you can copy and paste multiple quotes. Maybe there is an easier way to do that?
For example... I push the button and this is what happens:
So I might say...
gregg said:
and D4L said:
(I like some of D4L fun southern sayings)
Just mess round with it some and see what things do. 
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 25, 2020 20:28:17 GMT -6
Yea I tried, and made a mess of everything hahaahaha!
I'll try again.
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Post by yardstick on Jan 25, 2020 20:57:13 GMT -6
gregg , yardstick , disciple4life , How do you post that...is that a quote box of what I said? Yardstick show me how to use the orange reply button on the right. Which opens like a word doc type box which is cool. In the upper right corner of each post is a quote button. When clicked it will embed the post as a quote within your post. The quote will be boxed. Click below the box to type your response. Quotes are used like this to draw attention to a specific point or points the poster was making, so that they can be addressed in context. It is possible to edit out irrelevant portions, or highlight relevant portions of the quoted text by using those "word" buttons. Hovering over the button gives you a little popup that tells you what the button does. The hyperlink button, quote button and others are the buttons to the farthest right of the "word" buttons. click the 'create post' button in the bottom right corner when you are done typing what you want to post. |
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 25, 2020 21:33:51 GMT -6
gregg , yardstick , disciple4life , How do you post that...is that a quote box of what I said? Yardstick show me how to use the orange reply button on the right. Which opens like a word doc type box which is cool. In the upper right corner of each post is a quote button. When clicked it will embed the post as a quote within your post. The quote will be boxed. Click below the box to type your response. Quotes are used like this to draw attention to a specific point or points the poster was making, so that they can be addressed in context. It is possible to edit out irrelevant portions, or highlight relevant portions of the quoted text by using those "word" buttons. Hovering over the button gives you a little popup that tells you what the button does. The hyperlink button, quote button and others are the buttons to the farthest right of the "word" buttons. click the 'create post' button in the bottom right corner when you are done typing what you want to post. Hummm..lets see what this looks like |
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 25, 2020 21:35:50 GMT -6
guess I did that one wrong..oh so I click the little quote face to put it inside.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 26, 2020 8:48:14 GMT -6
guess I did that one wrong..oh so I click the little quote face to put it inside. Hey buddy, - We're gonna figure it out together. - It might just mean a 3rd cup of coffee. LOL.
So in each post, there are three buttons in the upper right corner. First one is quote, second is the "like" or thumbs up button and the third, on the far right is the settings gear. If you hover over that one, there are several options in a drop down menu.
So first off, don't go into the quick reply box at the bottom of the thread. If you see something particular that you want to comment on, or disagree with, then click the quote button in their post. - I mean the quote button in their box.
Then, it automatically will select the entire post and put it inside a light gray quote box which says their name, so there can be no mistake who said what.
Example; Everyone knows that people in the South are more obese, and less educated, but more friendly. So you just have to ask yourself, - "My car is broken down and it's freezing cold and I'm 5 miles from anything with no cell reception -=- would your rather have the Northern guy with the PhD pass you by in his Lexus, or the Southern guy stop and help you in his 2004 Ford pickup."
Example: While there is a lot of debate and speculation that Trump will create a state for the Faux-lestinians, and give them land -- They hate Israel and Jews and Trump's sons all married to Jewish women, and his daughter Ivanka is Jewish, so all his Grandchildren are Jewish, and he's friends with Netanyahu. So this is not gonna happen.
Example: Every real Christian knows that the apostles drove Hondas, because is says in the KJV, [The version Paul used] that they were all together in one Accord.
Then, you simply go into the your new post with their quote box at the top, and delete out the part of the post that is not relevant.
Then, you just have to be sure to go below their box, and start writing, so that you are not posting into their quote.
Try this with this post, Gregg, and I think it will make sense. As I said, others are much better, but this is a detailed example that I know works. I don't know how to do quotes of Bob, inside quotes of Brad.
Click the quote button first, inside my post. Upper right. and it should put my entire post in a quote box at the top of your thread. I can't wait to see which one you choose. LOL.
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Of course this fits totally in line /matches both the accounts that Christ gave for examples of the second advent [ rapture, tribulation and subsequent second coming] 
There are 99 blasts of the Shofar - Alternating long, drawn out series of blasts and short, rapid staccato blasts - then there is the Last Trumpet - the 100th blast which is the longest blast - held out as long as the trumpeter has breath. It even has a special name in Hebrew. Tekia ha Gadol. 
