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Post by mike on Jan 26, 2020 9:30:21 GMT -6
On the quoting topic Using a computer makes multi-quoting and editing to quote only a specific piece of a quote much easier. Doing so from a mobile device is more difficult. In the app there are less options. If you switch to the desktop version, you would be using the mobile device as if it were a computer, but the size of the font becomes quite tiny. Therefore you could use the mobile device like a computer (i often do) but will need to zoom in to text in order to see it  |
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 27, 2020 0:21:47 GMT -6
The Apostle PAUL
on the Rapture of the Church
RAPTURE SERIES
PREFACE
THE TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS INTRODUCTION
I think to start at the beginning we should look at the tabernacle, or Temple in the Wilderness, as a road map of the simplest, total expression of Christianity, to be found in the Old Testament. Christianity from beginning to end. The Tabernacle was the shadow cast by the word of God to be fulfilled in the time of the promised Messiah. Beginning in the time of Moses, it’s rites and rituals have pointed the people of the tribes of Israel directly at the Messiah. After the rejection of Jesus, the Jews continue as they were, under the law, awaiting their Messiah right into the present day. It wasn’t until that time that God revealed His “fail safe” program, the Church, to whom He passed along the meaning of the rites and rituals of the Jews, as promises to a whole new breed of civilization; neither Gentile nor Jew, but new creatures in Christ, that make up His body, the Church, whom against not even the gates of hell shall prevail. Since those rites and rituals, better known as the feasts, were passed along to us, the Church as promises, I think that it’s an important thing for Christians to know and understand. It is the basis for our Christian beliefs on the one hand, and a trail to follow, leading from the past, directly into the future. And, since we are in the future now, because we have arrived at the time described in Daniel, as the end time, we can use hindsight to view the Christian promises, through the substance and shadow of their original Jewish meaning and see our way even more clearly than were able the Jews. But, the structure itself is a lesson in the geography of the landscape of Christianity. So, for the serious student, and the seekers of truth, it’s paramount to understand the roots of our Faith, which really all began with the Temple in the Wilderness, The Tabernacle. It is the simplest, total expression of Christianity, to be found in the Old Testament. Let’s start with the building itself. Shall I continue?  Its a good read, I can send it to you if you like. Its about a meg pdf. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2020 2:45:12 GMT -6
I thought we were all meeting Christ in the air. This is new news.
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 27, 2020 6:55:38 GMT -6
Hello Gregg,
The tabernacle in the wilderness itself is a very interesting and complex but separate topic. There are several threads on that.
The real issue here is very short and quite simple.
Yardstick, Mike and I have raised the question that there is nothing anywhere in scripture that even implies several of the points in your thread.
[I've been mistaken countless times and overlooked scripture. 😉]
I can't pretend to speak for others but it seems the thing that would save the most time is to show us from scripture or how you feel there are clues or other passages to support several points.
1. The point that there is a long gap between the resurrection and Harpazo.
2. The point that this gap is 40 days
3. The point that the resurrection happens at First fruits,
And
4. The view that some disciples were also raised up to heaven when Christ ascended 40 days later, or ever.
I would kindly request this first, as we can have a more fruitful discussion.
I think most everyone here agrees with your point that the feasts and tabernacle are/were shadows of other things and have end times implications. 👍😇
As of now, its really just my view that they all [33 resurrected disciples] resettled in Egypt and died 5 years later of a plague vs your view.
Cordially
Disciple4Life
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 27, 2020 9:20:47 GMT -6
boymaker , disciple4life , The reason for the 40 days, is a warning for the Jews in Jerusalem. The dead that rise ( on first fruits), go back into Jerusalem and whiteness again about Jesus there messiah (for 40 days). Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together. God brings back with Him the already dead in Christ. We are to watch and warn those around us during that time because we recognize the warning sign. The "THE TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS" is background and clarity to the rapture. Jesus said the only authority iam going to give you is the sign of the profit Jonah.
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Post by mike on Jan 27, 2020 10:27:18 GMT -6
boymaker , disciple4life , The reason for the 40 days, is a warning for the Jews in Jerusalem. The dead that rise ( on first fruits), go back into Jerusalem and whiteness again about Jesus there messiah (for 40 days). Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together. God brings back with Him the already dead in Christ. We are to watch and warn those around us during that time because we recognize the warning sign. The "THE TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS" is background and clarity to the rapture. Jesus said the only authority iam going to give you is the sign of the profit Jonah. So then Gregg, this is just a theory you have unsupported in any way in scripture - correct? There is no reason for anyone to state "a bunch of Christian/believers who have died over the last 2000 years are going to resurrect, but not all of them. They'll warn people that in 40 days the living believers are going to get raptured" Of those who have questioned you, the answer you provide to support the position is missing. If those, including myself are missing the CLEAR scripture you are referring to, please provide it. And NO Matt 27:52-53 does NOT clarify your point. The text only says what it says. We do not know if those died again, rose with Christ or how long they wandered the City. None of this is in the text AT ALL. |
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 27, 2020 16:21:13 GMT -6
boymaker , disciple4life ,Gregg's original points here in black - D4L questions, comments or responses in red. Gregg -- "The reason for the 40 days, is a warning for the Jews in Jerusalem." Gregg, Nothing in the text anywhere that even gives a hint that those resurrected were taken up with Christ, not in 40 days, not in 33 days, nothing anywhere. The dead that rise ( on first fruits), go back into Jerusalem and whiteness again about Jesus there messiah (for 40 days). Nothing in the text says or implies that they witness about their Messiah, or if they all joined a group of monks and made goat cheese. This is Eisegesis - reading into the text something that is not there. Gregg -- "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together." This is a direct and partial quote from 1 Thess 4, the most famous rapture passage in the Bible. (please put quotes and a scripture ref for clarity, if you could - it would be very helpful.) Gregg -- "God brings back with Him the already dead in Christ." Yes, this is also from I Thess 4:16 and 17, but it doesn't say anything about a gap, and especially not a long one. In fact, the Greek word means to be caught up, snatched up quickly. Paul also said that the rapture is in a twinkling of an eye. Also, why would the saints all just be hovering in the sky for 40 days. Nothing to support any gap. We are to watch and warn those around us during that time because we recognize the warning sign. What warning, sign?? Based on what scripture, or even a commentary, or some clues from the Greek language, or some special Jewish cultural insight/ Historical or archaeological evidence to support this position?? There is none. The "THE TABERNACLE IN THE WILDERNESS" is background and clarity to the rapture. Ok, maybe, but what verse supports that, or says that. What do you base your theory on? Jesus said the only authority iam going to give you is the sign of the profit Jonah. Correct, but the sign of the prophet Jonah is relevant to timeline of the crucifixion and the resurrection of Christ. It was that just as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the great fish so Christ was 3 days and 3 nights in the earth. What scripture can you link or give as a cross-reference to help support the idea that the sign of Jonah is connected to the Rapture. So far you haven't given a single scripture, or a single commentary reference or a single clue from Greek Language, or any evidence from Hebrew culture to support your view.
My brother, - if you have any scripture, please show them to us. As of now, your theory is no stronger than my theory that the believers (33 of them were all abducted by the Romans, and taken as prisoners, exiled in a dungeon on the Isle of Crete, where they all lived for 12 more years and mysteriously all died on Feast of Booths.
Gregg, I'm sure you would agree that "All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
and with Paul's words to us "Study to show yourself as an approved workmen unto God, - a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15.
Scripture is our final authority for life and practice. We have theories and give our take on random scenarios, but everyone understand that where scripture is silent, then it's all speculation. Until and unless you can explain or support your view with scripture - then there is no reason anyone should take it seriously.
That's all we are asking - I don't think it's at all unreasonable- To simply show us the scriptures that say the things you say, or prove these are the case.
Without this, you have no basis to say that the notion that the rapture will happen on Valentines day, and the gap is 7 hours, 7 minutes and 7 seconds, - God's number of perfection, combined with the trinity, is false.
Cordially,
Disciple4life.
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 28, 2020 9:43:29 GMT -6
mike , gregg , boymaker , disciple4life , All I'm saying is watch for forty day warning sign in Joana. There are a lot Christians in Israel, that will recognize the sign and warn also. The church covenant will be over then and the Jewish covenant will resume. Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. Jesus told the Jews, Jonah is all the authority I'm going to give you! Yes we are going meeting Christ in the air. Paul told the Colossians the feasts of the Jews are shadows of things to come for the church. All of your points above are valid! I just don't think they are simultaneous events, even though it sounds like it. For example in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-4:17 I'm trying to reconcile these two seminally different groups of people. My question is why the dead in Christ shall rise first?Who are the dead in Christ that rise first?
4:013 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:014 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:015 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:016 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:017 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Didn't Paul just say when we die we sleep?
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 28, 2020 14:17:26 GMT -6
Hello Gregg,
Since you do not answer me or Yardstick or Mike,
Maybe lets try another question.
You have mentioned the "sign of Joana" a few times.
** I'm going out on a limb here but i think you mean "The sign of Jonah"- the Old Testament prophet and the author of the OT book of Jonah - the dude who was swallowed by the great fish. It's not to nit-pick, but just because there are a lot of people who read the threads and they could be confused. 😉
Could you tell us what you think the sign of Jonah is?
This is important because you are using the phrase, but in a totally different meaning and context than it is used by Christ in the book of Matthew and totally different from how most Bible scholars use and understand this phrase.
I'm not categorically saying you're wrong, it's just good for dialogue when we're using the same terms.
For example, i often use the term 'Christ's Second Advent' and i always say that by this I don't mean only the rapture but the rapture, Tribulation and Second coming, when Christ touches down on the Mt of Olives.
This is helpful because it doesn't demonize people who have different views re pre-trib vs mid-trib rapture.
A lot of times- people say "second coming", but they are really discussing the rapture specifically [wherever they see it occurring on the timeline] but they don't mean the event at the end when Christ returns TO EARTH WITH HIS BRIDE FOR JUSTICE AND JUDGEMENT.
That's also why I always clarify what I mean if someone refers to Leprechauns or Palestinians or Hobbits. "Tom, - you mean Jordanian Arabs, right??
I dont see or understand how you are connecting very different things
1. Sign of Jonah
2. The number 40
3. The rapture
4. Some time gap between when the dead in christ rise and we are caught up quickly with them in the air.
5. Any evidence or even a clue that any of the events of Christ's Second advent are linked with First fruits. That was already fulfilled.
Cordially
Disciple4Life
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 28, 2020 18:06:59 GMT -6
mike, gregg, boymaker, disciple4life, I'm gona try one step at a time. Is everyone hung up on the 40 days thing? Cause I,m hung up on the dead rising thing! The body of Christ cannot go through the wrath of God twice. The church covenant has to end, so and Jewish covenant can resume. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.Ok stop there, when we die we sleep in Jesus right! So what I take from this is Jesus is going to bring me with Him, right!
? Why are the dead rising. To do What? If when we die we sleep in Jesus!
I don't have a problem with the we which are alive and remain.4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I gata put my smile face on now
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Post by disciple4life on Jan 28, 2020 19:54:27 GMT -6
mike , gregg , boymaker , disciple4life , I'm gona try one step at a time. Is everyone hung up on the 40 days thing? Cause I,m hung up on the dead rising thing! The body of Christ cannot go through the wrath of God twice. The church covenant has to end, so and Jewish covenant can resume. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.Ok stop there, when we die we sleep in Jesus right! So what I take from this is Jesus is going to bring me with Him, right!
? Why are the dead rising. To do What? If when we die we sleep in Jesus!
I don't have a problem with the we which are alive and remain.4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. I gata put my smile face on now Hello my brother,
So, I'm really sorry if I came across as harsh. It really is not my intention. I don't always articulate my own thoughts, so Lord knows I won't try to speak for anyone else. They are all capable of giving their take and we're quite used to going back and forth, and getting clarification, and sometimes, we just have to agree to disagree.
Usually it's things where scripture is silent, like the exact identity of the AC, or there are some clues and passages that have different nuances, and therefore are subject to people's interpretation.
I don't think anyone is hung up, or bent out of shape, with any point really. I think there are a few factors. - First, there are three or four different assertions or opinions in your original post. Each one could well be it's own thread, so we have multiple topics and multiple theories. - Secondly, I and Mike and Yardstick have asked you to show us the scripture where it says this -- [Or in other words, to the best of our flawed memories and imperfect Bible knowledge, we can't think of any verse or any passage nor do we know of any Bible scholars or commentaries that support this view.]
There are countless passages that I have forgotten, or overlooked, or just didn't understand if I read it. ;-)
I tried to outline the main points where you have stated a theory or opinion, but no scripture.
1. You believe that there is a warning of some kind in scripture for the rapture. (I myself believe this very strongly) What scripture do you use that makes you believe this?? If a person were a new Christian, what verse would you give to support this view.?? Is it some planetary sign in the heavens, like the Revelation 12 sign 2 years ago. Is it an earthquake, or some natural disaster, and how long is the warning. There are multiple threads on this topic, and I started one. 2. You believe that in the passage of 1 Thess 4:16-17 where Paul is talking about the rapture, there is some gap. A very long one. The believers in the church had believed some false things about people who had died. He tells them/us that all those who are Christians who have died will be resurrected. Nothing in the text says or implies a gap, and in fact the grammatical context of the word, suggests no gap, and the word for rapture, "Harpazo" means to be caught up, snatched up quickly by force. When we cross reference scripture, Paul says in another passage that the event is instant - in the twinkling of an eye. This is not a gap. 3. You believe that this gap is 40 days. Nothing in any passage tells us anywhere that there will be a gap between the resurrection of the dead, and the rapture/ snatching up quickly of the rest of us. "those who are alive and remain". We will be caught up together, [same time, same place,] to meet the Lord in the clouds. 4. You believe that the event of the rapture is an exact duplicate, exact repeat of the resurrection of Christ and his ascension into heaven 40 days later. The only thing they have in common based on what the text plainly says is the resurrection of the dead - those who were Christians. Paul is simply assuring the Christians that we will not precede those who are dead in Christ [we will not be caught up before those who are dead.] 5. You have referenced the Sign of Jonah a few times, and then you use the passage of Jonah which said that the people of Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days if they didn't repent. You seem to be referring to the Sign of Jonah to be somehow connected with the 40 day warning, but this is not how most scholars use or understand the Sign of Jonah. In Matthew, Christ refers to the sign of Jonah, and in the very next verse, he tells us what the sign of Jonah is.
It has nothing to do with 40 days, and nothing to do with the people repenting, and based on my understanding, it's not a picture of type or the rapture. He explicitly states that it was the 3 days and 3 nights that Jonah was in the belly of the great fish, and the context is that is the only sign Christ gave as proof of his Messiahship. He said as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man will be 3 days and 3 nights in the earth. Not parts of days. When we cross reference the passage in Matthew with the passage in Jonah, we find the exact same phrase - 3 days and 3 nights.
6. You believe that the rapture will happen on Firstfruits. Scripture doesn't say this, nor does Paul say it, nor are there any clues that would support that notion. There are multiple clues given by Christ and other clues given by Paul, which all point to the same thing, but it's not Firstfruits. That is also another thread.
So most all are in agreement that the feasts are a shadow of things to come. Paul said that explicitly. Not in agreement regarding what that means, or how it plays out. We agree that regarding end times, we are called to watch, but no one has all the pieces, and some things will be kept hidden/ remain a mystery until we are in heaven. We agree in a physical, literal rapture, where Christians will be taken up and go to a literal heaven, and live forever. We agree that we know the end of the story and Christ wins. ;-) Disagree on the sequence of events -- where the rapture will be on the timeline of the Tribulation. We agree that the "dead in Christ" will be resurrected. We agree that they will rise first, and the living will follow. We agree with Paul, that we- as Christians are Children of the Day, so "that day will not surprise us like a thief in the night." We agree that we will join them, the dead and Christ and all be together with the Lord forever. We agree that when Jesus was resurrected, some were resurrected and went to Jerusalem and appeared to many. We agree that Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the great fish. We agree that there are many many scriptures where there was something that happened or a period of 40 days and 40 nights, and over and over again, we see the pattern that 40 is the number of testing - Noah Tested 40 days and 40 nights. (Though many think that these patterns and meaning connected to certain numbers is numerology and borders on superstition/ sorcery) Jesus tempted in the wilderness 40 days and 40 nights, - and he was tested, Moses on the mountain, People of Ninevah given 40 days to repent. They were tested and they repented. etc.
That's my take in a nutshell. Blessings, and Maranatha,
Disciple4life
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 29, 2020 9:35:19 GMT -6
disciple4life , That's a big nutshell...hahaahahh I'm convinced Paul new what he was talking about, and talks about the Rapture event in various ways. Its good we have this back and forth communication. 2 Corinthians 5:6-5:8 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. The dead that do rise (in my opinion) need to be recent and familiar with there surroundings to recognize and be recognized by others. To do in Jerusalem what there counterparts and Jesus did for 40 days speaking of the things concerning the kingdom and pending destruction. coupled with 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
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gregg
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Post by gregg on Jan 29, 2020 21:01:55 GMT -6
gregg , mike , fitz , yardstick , boraddict , So, this 40-day period, was then and will again be a period of warning. Scripture tells us what Jesus was doing during His last 40 days on earth, but it doesn’t mention what the freed saints, who were seen by many in Jerusalem, were doing. Jesus was visiting His friend and showing them that He was alive, and telling them about His leaving, and that He would come again. These resurrected saints knew that. They heard it straight from Jesus. The many who saw them in Jerusalem were surely being told their story, which ends with following Jesus, which essentially is a warning to repent, as repent means to turn away from and turn toward. Following Jesus, out of the grave, into the Kingdom saved from destruction! No wonder that just 10 days later, on Pentecost, when Peter offers Jesus as the Messiah, 3,000 people rushed to his call on the very first day of his Ministry. Obviously they heeded the warning to accept Jesus as Messiah and be saved from destruction and the reward of a heavenly Kingdom on earth. The symbolism holds up because this is not the Church being saved. The Church was still a mystery, hidden in the mind of God, not yet revealed at the time of Acts 2. This is an offer to the Jews to be saved from destruction, (which comes later to all Jews who do not accept Him, except for those for whom God has already provided for in their scripture), and to receive the Kingdom on earth, as promised in their covenant. Not until the Church is revealed through Paul, does the reward change from salvation and Kingdom on earth, to salvation and Heaven with rulership in the Kingdom on earth. But there was only one sacrifice made. It was made to save the world through the Jews, but that prize is awarded to a substitute because even though He came to His own, His own received Him not. That’s why the Church was revealed in its time, because the need arose. Put simply, Christ said, ‘here I am’, the Jews said, ‘no you’re not., and the Church said, ‘I believe’. So, the believer gets the prize, the Jews get the Kingdom on earth and Christ rules the Kingdom with the prize winners for a thousand years. The significance of the dead that rose after Christ is that they were the revealed token that showed the promise of the full harvest yet to come fulfilled by the harvester, Christ, and the part they play in the shadow that is reflected in the future for the Church is taught by Paul to the Thessalonians. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the air to be with the Lord forever. Many of the dead in Christ of the end time are going to rise first. Before hand, just like they did when they cast this shadow. And when they do, they will be doing the same thing as their counterparts did after they rose. For 40 days they will be seen in Jerusalem, warning the Jews to repent and follow Jesus, the true Messiah before it’s too late and God’s wrath, known to them through their prophets, falls on them. Paul taught Christians to be watching at the end time in order to see the elements of the prophecies occurring, so we can alert the others to what we see. Thank you for your patience!
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 6:58:29 GMT -6
gregg , mike , fitz , yardstick , boraddict , So, this 40-day period, was then and will again be a period of warning. Scripture tells us what Jesus was doing during His last 40 days on earth, but it doesn’t mention what the freed saints, who were seen by many in Jerusalem, were doing. Jesus was visiting His friend and showing them that He was alive, and telling them about His leaving, and that He would come again. These resurrected saints knew that. They heard it straight from Jesus. The many who saw them in Jerusalem were surely being told their story, which ends with following Jesus, which essentially is a warning to repent, as repent means to turn away from and turn toward. Following Jesus, out of the grave, into the Kingdom saved from destruction! No wonder that just 10 days later, on Pentecost, when Peter offers Jesus as the Messiah, 3,000 people rushed to his call on the very first day of his Ministry. Obviously they heeded the warning to accept Jesus as Messiah and be saved from destruction and the reward of a heavenly Kingdom on earth. The symbolism holds up because this is not the Church being saved. The Church was still a mystery, hidden in the mind of God, not yet revealed at the time of Acts 2. This is an offer to the Jews to be saved from destruction, (which comes later to all Jews who do not accept Him, except for those for whom God has already provided for in their scripture), and to receive the Kingdom on earth, as promised in their covenant. Not until the Church is revealed through Paul, does the reward change from salvation and Kingdom on earth, to salvation and Heaven with rulership in the Kingdom on earth. But there was only one sacrifice made. It was made to save the world through the Jews, but that prize is awarded to a substitute because even though He came to His own, His own received Him not. That’s why the Church was revealed in its time, because the need arose. Put simply, Christ said, ‘here I am’, the Jews said, ‘no you’re not., and the Church said, ‘I believe’. So, the believer gets the prize, the Jews get the Kingdom on earth and Christ rules the Kingdom with the prize winners for a thousand years. The significance of the dead that rose after Christ is that they were the revealed token that showed the promise of the full harvest yet to come fulfilled by the harvester, Christ, and the part they play in the shadow that is reflected in the future for the Church is taught by Paul to the Thessalonians. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the air to be with the Lord forever. Many of the dead in Christ of the end time are going to rise first. Before hand, just like they did when they cast this shadow. And when they do, they will be doing the same thing as their counterparts did after they rose. For 40 days they will be seen in Jerusalem, warning the Jews to repent and follow Jesus, the true Messiah before it’s too late and God’s wrath, known to them through their prophets, falls on them. Paul taught Christians to be watching at the end time in order to see the elements of the prophecies occurring, so we can alert the others to what we see. Thank you for your patience! Gregg - when the word doesnt tell us something and we insert our own theory we risk 'adding to scripture'. As disciple4life stated earlier, this is eisegesis. I realize that you may be aware of this but there may be some reading along who are led astray by this concept you have. No where in scripture are we certain that the dead who raised when Christ was crucified that they were or became fully aware of what happened. We only are told they appeared to many. We can speculate what happened, but should not build 'doctrines' from that. If these resurrected preached, why did they that heard wait until Peter spoke to believe (rhetorical)? Many in Christ rise? this is not accurate. Those who believed and are asleep will rise, not a selection of some in Jerusalem only. Otherwise you have one resurrection of the dead, then a second (both thereof believers, with a third of those unbelievers after 1000 years). You see what you are doing here? You are making an assumption and building off of that. Building something that is not in the scripture, which is dangerous sir. This foundation is flawed from the beginning. I am locking this thread for moderator review as I do not think we should continue with a concept where you have not provided scriptures which fully support the view and equally been able to answer the questions posed by several including me. |
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2020 14:06:35 GMT -6
gregg - I will leave this temporarily locked for further input from other moderators (namely yardstick ) who have followed along. It will then be unlocked and remain pending your response(s). I would first like to address the comment you posed in the Shoutbox about me locking the thread because I " didnt agree with you/your position". There have been many things expressed on this site that I have not agreed with where I have either done what is being now, that is ask more questions to understand, making a more informed evaluation of the material presented. In some cases when questions are not answered with sufficient or unbiblical responses the threads are closed. Also there have been occasions where it is accepted that we disagree and be okay with it as it is not a core doctrinal or belief issue and has enough of the 'right ingredients' to stand OR have changed my position on a subject. I am asking you to support your theory (again) with biblical substance, whereas to this point is lacking greatly. There was a fellow about two years ago who was fully persuaded we would be raptured on New Years Day 2018. That thread was about 15-20 pages long. Although this person had a scripture or two to support his position, they were subjective and not convincing yet he persisted that " everyone wasnt seeing it clearly" and " you'll see on NY day when we all meet in the sky". I wanted him to be right! He just couldnt provide the evidence to make his case strong enough to buy into. Eventually NY day came and went and sadly he disappeared from our fellowship here as well. Why I do not currently agree will be explored (although I think I, along with disciple4life & yardstick have already done so in various replies). Please note it is not a matter of my agreement I am after, but rather accurate support of the position you have presented so that it can stand scrutiny. IN CONTEXT - what was Paul talking about?1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.Here we have living believers fearing they will die and not rise and/or miss the return of Christ. Paul tells them (possibly gleaning or paraphrasing Daniel 12:2) dont be ignorant, dont be hopeless for your hope is in Christ the one who rose from the dead (1Cor 15:14). Those who believed and have gone on before those (who also believe and) remain will return with the Lord and rise first, that is rise to the clouds before those alive and remaining. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Can you support the stance you hold aside from "substance and shadows" where you very loosely tie the rapture back to the resurrection of Christ and those who rose with him (Matt 27:53)? As a repeat we do not know if those rose died again, ascended, were taken like Enoch or in a chariot like Elijah. Could I claim they were raptured and did not ascend as Christ did? In this synopsis I believe I could, but would be inserting my own thoughts and claiming they were what happened or accurate, which I should not. Where in the above do you surmise that some (not all) those who have died prior to the first resurrection will rise? When do the rest of the dead arise in your view? and what verse(s) support a 40 delayed resurrection? This would essentially amount to the second resurrection, followed by a 3rd after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. In this equation when do those alive change and get caught up? Is it with the second set of the resurrection? Saving for now - I may edit the above
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