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Post by boraddict on Oct 19, 2019 13:01:16 GMT -6
Sorry you lost me when you said John sees himself as one of the four living creatures. These are the same creatures the Ezekiel sees (Ezekiel 1:5). They are a type of created heavenly being. Please consider that Lord Jesus was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-4); and at that time there was only God and Lord Jesus. Next we have the creation of heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1). From the time of these two creations, Lord Jesus and then heaven/earth, there was nothing else. Then mankind was created as heavenly beings of which Satan rebelled. Last of all, mankind was sent to this earth (including Satan). If the above is correct, then in the beginning was God, Lord Jesus, and then mankind as heavenly beings. Lastly, Satan was sent to the earth and mankind was born upon the earth. After mankind passes through the refiners fire (mortality), then there is the eternal reward of living with God, or, not. The four creatures as referenced in Ezekiel and beasts in Revelation are individuals from the above group and stipulated to in Rev. 1:1. There are many things passed down to us from generations of old. One that I find fascinating is the concept of Jesus having long hair; a sign of rebellion. When in fact it was the Jews and not Jesus who were in rebellion against God. The Jews are the ones with long hair to this very day; not Jesus. There is something to be said about the creation of the Holy Ghost as the third member of the Godhead. However, it seems that it functions as part of the creation of mankind or rather the connection between God and mankind that guides us in the ways of God dwelling in us. Then at some level Lord Jesus can also dwell in us, and lastly the Father will dwell in us. Just my own thoughts. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 19, 2019 13:46:04 GMT -6
uscgvet , with all due respect, and I mean that deeply, so always keep in mind my tone is with sisterly love. You are making my point (and rt's thesis point), even though I am sure you are trying to correct our thinking. I would want to take a stance like yardstick and say this is one of the non=essentials agrument, but in some way, even though a lack of agreement does not affect our faith-walk in salvation, the overall depth of what John is seeing in the Heaven is glorious and wonderful and so adds to the magnitude of things beyond our comprehension. The intricate details of the Lord God and how consistent He is in His patterns, and laws and ways and Plan for mankind.... John is seeing how mournful it was in heaven prior to Christ, the Lamb of God, on the cross and then the cross event and what it meant for heaven and earth. John the B here is already defining Jesus, BUT Jesus has not been slain yet...he knows He is the Lamb. The event is not yet 3 1/2 years and yet the Baptist KNOWS the future outcome. He is prophecying to a future event yet Jesus is right there in the present. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
But apostle John needs to be shown from Heaven's point of view what the Lamb means to the world in God's economy. The angel of the Lord had to show John the court room scene that justifies God-man Jesus Christ being worthy to sit at/take scroll from Right Hand of the Father. Whats even more glorious is that there are two twelves of elders PRIOR to the entrance of the Slain Lamb, meaning that from the Beginning God had a plan for both his initial Chosen and the gentile (those outside the court), thank God we have elders to cover our butts, both jew and gentile. The poetry of ch 4 and 5 is something to behold. To say this whole event happens AFTER 90 ad, or even after a rapture (because many teach that 4:1 is the rapture or represents it so everything after is the 7 years ) is to miss the intricate details of God's "court of order." ================================================================================================================================ lets go back to the church letters. so they are to represent visions too? or are actual statements? Those churches existed in John's time. Ok, so where in the BofR is anything from the past written and shown, in general? also, what do 5 of the churches have to overcome and if they do or don't do x,y, z, stuff happen, but was that going on in JOhn's time? Did those churches experience everything said to them from these letters? where are all those present events of those churches fulfilled? If 4:1 is all future, then what do you do with rev 12:1,2? We must surely have been raptured now, and surely the trumpets done, not to mention the seals. But then maybe the Sign of Rev 12 was not the sign of rev 12 to you? How does one saying 4:1 onward is all future yet we had a pretty good account of Rev 12:1,2 and many of us trying to figure out where ch 4-11 are..., actually I have not seen anyone here trying to find what happened to ch 4-11 in this forum. Here is how I take the Book of the Revealing of Jesus to the whole world as He takes over the Final Kingdom and crushes the clay/iron one: There are letters given to the assemblies, prophecies within each letter to each type of church. after the letters are written, John goes up to heaven and is shown WHY Jesus is justified to be ruler over the heavenlies (past event shown and that leads to future events shown). Part of the next chapters are past, likely some present and future events combined within the vision, more visions come and John sees more detail, being shown stuff from PRIOR to 90AD and then perhaps some present stuff but definitely future events, of many things he already saw, but are shown from a different perspective. He sometimes is given an overview, then later is shown more detail of the SAME EXACT EVENT and how it is manifested and WHY, and validation coming in the form of Song from the throne, and peals of thunder and flashes of lightening, etc. The Lord is going to use various stages of His church BODY to bring about the destruction of MB and the beasts that carry her, to begin His reign. That is why it says the BoR is written to the churches and why the focus is on the number 7 in re to the lamps, seals, voices of the messengers, and the cups. Numbers mean things just like words... sigh,
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Post by Natalie on Oct 19, 2019 13:48:09 GMT -6
boraddict, mankind was created from the dust of the earth and the breath of God (Eve then from Adam's rib). Is there something in Scripture that you see as suggesting man is fist a heavenly being? And the Holy Spirit is not a created being.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 19, 2019 13:55:05 GMT -6
boraddict, I am reading along your words, but am responding to other angles of this thread. I can truly see that the Lord is showing you something in your heart, I have faith in that. yet, sometimes I go "what is she talking about?" I can't always agree with what you say, but then I will say, "one day I will understand my sister boraddict." For I have faith that each one of us has nuggets of truth. I am just trying to find where I am 100% seeing it the same way as how o you are. For now, it's not 100%.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 19, 2019 21:15:48 GMT -6
boraddict , mankind was created from the dust of the earth and the breath of God (Eve then from Adam's rib). Is there something in Scripture that you see as suggesting man is fist a heavenly being? And the Holy Spirit is not a created being. There may be something in scripture and I will look for it; however, I am primarily concluding from conjecture as follows: Lord Jesus was: 1) with God in the beginning, 2) then he was mortal, and 3) after the physical death he was with God again. Thus it follows: 3) We who follow Lord Jesus will after the physical death be with God. 2) We are in the mortal condition at this time 1) Following the type of Lord Jesus, we were with God before we were mortal. So I will look for scriptural support. The Holy Ghost has always been a mystery to me. We know that God is a fixed being and he created Lord Jesus that is the second member of the Godhead. We also know that Lord Jesus is our advocate to the Father and at some point he (Jesus) can dwell within each of us. Yet, the Holy Ghost that is the third member of the Godhead testifies of truth to everyone and can also live within each of us. It follows that Lord Jesus whom is our salvation brings us to the Father, and no one comes to the Father but by Christ. So, the remaining condition is that God communicates to us via Christ via the Holy Ghost. That seems correct to me. I need to look for scriptural support. I do not know if God created the Holy Ghost; I don't think so. However, this member of the Godhead participates before the creation. It is one subject matter that is over my head. |
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 20, 2019 7:34:25 GMT -6
uscgvet , with all due respect, and I mean that deeply, so always keep in mind my tone is with sisterly love. Always with respect and love. :-)You are making my point (and rt's thesis point) (disagree), even though I am sure you are trying to correct our thinking. I'm only trying to show that what we have in Revelation is what we have. Adding to it or removing from it is a mistake [Revelation 22:18-19]; making assumptions which have us conclude things that aren't so is likely just as dangerous and playing with fire. I would want to take a stance like yardstick and say this is one of the non=essentials agrument (agree this is non-essential topic), but in some way, even though a lack of agreement does not affect our faith-walk in salvation (agree), the overall depth of what John is seeing in the Heaven is glorious and wonderful and so adds to the magnitude of things beyond our comprehension (of course). The intricate details of the Lord God and how consistent He is in His patterns, and laws and ways and Plan for mankind.... (completely agree) John is seeing how mournful it was in heaven prior to Christ, the Lamb of God, on the cross and then the cross event and what it meant for heaven and earth. No! That is incorrect!
John is showing how mournful it was that no "man" was found, anywhere, worthy to open the scroll
We only have:
0. voice saying it's future Rev 4:1
1. a throne room with the Godhead Father and Holy Spirit as 7 flames before the throne [without the bodily form of the, already slain, Lamb]. (Christ was/is/will always be there because Christ is God AMEN! "...before Abraham was, I am")
2. a question about who can open the scroll (nothing about the crucifixion on earth or His ascension)
3. The appearance of the bodily form of the slain Lamb AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AS ONE [7 horns and 7 eyes] (See, Christ was always there!)
That's it. That's all we have. John the B here is already defining Jesus, BUT Jesus has not been slain yet...he knows He is the Lamb. The event is not yet 3 1/2 years and yet the Baptist KNOWS the future outcome. He is prophesying to a future event yet Jesus is right there in the present. (I think it's safe to agree with this as a prophecy. Knowing "the Lamb" is meant to be a sacrifice is probably OK to make this assumption, but it wasn't actually written about John the B) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
But apostle John needs to be shown from Heaven's point of view what the Lamb means to the world in God's economy. (Agree)The angel of the Lord had to show John the court room scene that justifies God- man (Ahh, but see, Jesus is not described as a "man" in Chapter 4 or 5, that's what makes the KJV so much better, otherwise we get errors in our logic and make assumptions which lead us to wrong doctrine; If no "one" was found worthy anywhere, then it would be a lie because the Godhead on the throne is worthy to open the scroll.) Jesus Christ being worthy to sit at/take scroll from Right Hand of the Father. Whats even more glorious is that there are two twelves of elders PRIOR to the entrance of the Slain Lamb, meaning that from the Beginning God had a plan for both his initial Chosen and the gentile (those outside the court), thank God we have elders to cover our butts, both jew and gentile. The poetry of ch 4 and 5 is something to behold. To say this whole event happens AFTER 90 ad [it did], or even after a rapture (because many teach that 4:1 is the rapture or represents it so everything after is the 7 years [we assume it is because of the 7 candlesticks and 7 flames] ) is to miss the intricate details of God's "court of order." ( i disagree )(the vision did actually occur... after Christ's ascension into Heaven... somewhere around 90 AD physically, on planet earth in John's earthly perspective...John himself testified of this as Chapter 1...literally; Revelation Chapter 1:1-10 is his testimony;
And the first chapter [Revelation 1:3] and last chapter [Revelation 22:10] call this book a prophecy;
And Chapter 4:1 literally tells you what is about to happen is future...)
================================================================================================================================ lets go back to the church letters. so they are to represent visions too? (they are in the vision that started in Chapter 1, I'd say they represent the present due to their actions in the past [report cards]) or are actual statements? (they are actual statements) Those churches existed in John's time. Ok, so where in the BofR is anything from the past written and shown, in general? (Chapter 1, John is saying this is what happened that day, as in the past as his testimony) also, what do 5 of the churches have to overcome and if they do or don't do x,y, z, stuff happen, but was that going on in JOhn's time? Did those churches experience everything said to them from these letters? where are all those present events of those churches fulfilled? If 4:1 is all future (it is because it was written to paper for everyone to read and understand it that way), then what do you do with rev 12:1,2? (from John's perspective, Rev 12 is future just as Rev 4:1 said it was. The fact that Scott Clarke discovered an alignment that very closely matches what's described in Rev 12 doesn't prove that it is the actual foretold, future event. It could be.) We must surely have been raptured now (we are still here aren't we?), and surely the trumpets done (I haven't heard any trumpets like John heard in Rev 4:1), not to mention the seals. (I'm not in heaven to have witnessed such openings) But then maybe the Sign of Rev 12 was not the sign of rev 12 to you? (it could be, but signs are usually posted before things about to happen, like road signs stating your exit is in 2 miles)
How does one saying 4:1 onward is all future yet we had a pretty good account of Rev 12:1,2 and many of us trying to figure out where ch 4-11 are..., actually I have not seen anyone here trying to find what happened to ch 4-11 in this forum. It is my humble opinion that 4-11 is describing what the church sees from heaven after the rapture occurs because of what we read in Rev 1-4. Rev 12 is a description of something to be seen in the future. Is that alignment we saw back in 2017 the same as what John saw? It's possible, but I can't prove it. The Rev 12 "man child" is also believed to be the church being raptured [another interesting point is it's a "man child", not a "Lamb" which I think also strengthens the case the child is likely the Body of Christ]. The rapture hasn't happened yet... And since the rapture hasn't happened yet, and we are not in the throne room with God physically seeing God ask the question "who is worthy to open the scroll?", how could the seals be opened?Here is how I take the Book of the Revealing of Jesus to the whole world as He takes over the Final Kingdom and crushes the clay/iron one: There are letters given to the assemblies, prophecies within each letter to each type of church. after the letters are written, John goes up to heaven and is shown WHY Jesus is justified to be ruler over the heavenlies (past event shown and that leads to future events shown). Part of the next chapters are past, likely some present and future events combined within the vision, more visions come and John sees more detail, being shown stuff from PRIOR to 90AD and then perhaps some present stuff but definitely future events, of many things he already saw, but are shown from a different perspective. He sometimes is given an overview, then later is shown more detail of the SAME EXACT EVENT and how it is manifested and WHY, and validation coming in the form of Song from the throne, and peals of thunder and flashes of lightening, etc. I fully understand your perspective. I just can't ignore Rev 4:1. I feel the same way about James 1:1. I can't ignore that either. James physically sent his letter to the Jews long before Paul even penned his letters which is why it seems to me that Paul's letters are direct rebuttals to James 2 on (faith + works) vs (grace thru faith alone). We can't ignore verses. And we can't change verses to mean something they don't say. It causes confusion and can have people looking for something that isn't there.The Lord is going to use various stages of His church BODY to bring about the destruction of MB and the beasts that carry her, to begin His reign. That is why it says the BoR is written to the churches and why the focus is on the number 7 in re to the lamps, seals, voices of the messengers, and the cups. Numbers mean things just like words... sigh, My responses in red above |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 20, 2019 11:20:40 GMT -6
I could make some counter comments to this statement but then I would be personally attacking you.
My credentials for the record: the Bible in all its various translations, I have 5 of them in print, plus there's Hub. Am at the whim of the greek/Hebrew translations found on the computer (they could all be false or misleading too). rarely if ever do I take someone else's write-ups to "tell me" what it says, unless I need a historical lesson on events etc. I rely upon the Lord (Holy Spirit to impress upon me). I think we all humbly do that, so why Rule #3 is part of this forum.
I do not believe I am changing verse to mean something they don't say. If anything so as not to add to Revelation? I keep the book of Daniel out of it. My understanding of the Lamb is completely different from yours apparently.
Now, it seems you made reference to Abraham in your argument, making reference to a ram provided in an event from the OT is fair game, but me bringing a scene from the Baptism of our God in MAN form and the purpose of that event can not be "added" to Rev?
BTW, I looked up the greek for "no man" found worthy.
3762 oudeís (from 3756 /ou "no, not" and 1520 /heís, "one") – properly, not one; no one, nothing.
It being a masculine adjective could be why the KJV inserted MAN here, but that seems to be changing the meaning of the greek word.
3762 /oudeís ("no one, nothing at all") is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions. 3762 (oudeís) is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included within the premise (supposition).
[3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.]
it means NOTHING is worthy. Should be the correct translation of the greek. or even more correctly "not anything" was found worthy. To me this includes animals or rocks or trees even.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 20, 2019 11:48:25 GMT -6
I could make some counter comments to this statement but then I would be personally attacking you. My credentials for the record: the Bible in all its various translations, I have 5 of them in print, plus there's Hub. Am at the whim of the greek/Hebrew translations found on the computer (they could all be false or misleading too). rarely if ever do I take someone else's write-ups to "tell me" what it says, unless I need a historical lesson on events etc. I rely upon the Lord (Holy Spirit to impress upon me). I think we all humbly do that, so why Rule #3 is part of this forum. I do not believe I am changing verse to mean something they don't say. If anything so as not to add to Revelation? I keep the book of Daniel out of it. My understanding of the Lamb is completely different from yours apparently. Now, it seems you made reference to Abraham in your argument, making reference to a ram provided in an event from the OT is fair game, but me bringing a scene from the Baptism of our God in MAN form and the purpose of that event can not be "added" to Rev? BTW, I looked up the greek for "no man" found worthy. 3762 oudeís (from 3756 /ou "no, not" and 1520 /heís, "one") – properly, not one; no one, nothing. It being a masculine adjective could be why the KJV inserted MAN here, but that seems to be changing the meaning of the greek word. 3762 /oudeís ("no one, nothing at all") is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions. 3762 (oudeís) is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included within the premise (supposition). [3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.] it means NOTHING is worthy. Should be the correct translation of the greek. or even more correctly "not anything" was found worthy. To me this includes animals or rocks or trees even. By your translation of "Nothing" being worthy would mean that the Godhead is included in that set. That is illogical. Who sealed the scroll with 7 seals in the first place? We have to assume it was God that sealed them and God is worthy to open them. But if "nothing" in heaven is found worthy that means God wasn't worthy either. It has to be "man" that wasn't found worthy and that is exactly what was written in the KJV. Edit: I want be sure that you understand that I am not attacking you or anyone here personally, only the theory proposed. If you have similitude from Daniel such as the one I used with Abraham, please, go for it and make your case. Let's be fair. As for the comment I made about changing the meaning of a verse in Revelation, I was referring to two such cases: 1. Indirectly: "no one" found vs "no man" found (That is not necessarily yours or anyone fault here, I'm just starting to become more of a KJV Only guy because I've seen really serious logic flaws in other translations which have turned my stomach against them). I believe if any other word other than "man" stands in its place in that verse, it likely means God wasn't worthy to open the scroll. God is "one" too wouldn't you say? 2. "John is seeing how mournful it was in heaven prior to Christ, the Lamb of God, on the cross and then the cross event and what it meant for heaven and earth." This statement was my primary concern, and the idea of it was originated from rt's original post 3 pages back. I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking most of you... LOL ;-D (just kidding) |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 20, 2019 12:31:53 GMT -6
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 20, 2019 20:50:29 GMT -6
uscgvet , just putting forth what the greek translation is showing in regard to the adjective used to say 'no one' was worthy. explain the greek to me not the king james. It would be easy to agree with you but I cant because of two or even 3 things. John was mourning, and if he was aware of the gospel while "in the spirit" he would not mourn because don't ya think he would also know that God made everything so should be worthy Himself to open the scroll? But for some reason John mourns. Why? Why when he should know the implications of what Jesus (in the form of man) did way back in 33 ad. Clearly John knew that Jesus was seated at the Right hand, but from how I read ch 4, John is seeing the form of the Father, not the Son. Maybe this is why he mourns because he is wondering where Jesus is. Isnt Jesus seated at the right hand prior to 90 ad? Jesus should be in the throne room. Jesus had to be in the heavenly throne room otherwise where is He? He cant be back on earth. That would put him returning to earth in 90 ad.. even if He goes back and forth after the Ascension, shouldn't John KNOW that the slain Lamb was the sacrifice that made atonement? the other element is the new song. It seems to be directly related to the Lamb slain appearance. “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.and then this is sung 10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
why is this song called new and singing it all of sudden? God did not find the slain Lamb worthy until 90ad? That does not make sense to me. verse 10 of Rev 5 was taught by both Peter and Paul prior to 90 ad...it is statement of something that happened prior to 90 ad. and how does Jesus take the scroll from the right hand of whom sits on the throne? 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
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Post by yardstick on Oct 21, 2019 2:33:53 GMT -6
uscgvet , with all due respect, and I mean that deeply, so always keep in mind my tone is with sisterly love. You are making my point (and rt's thesis point), even though I am sure you are trying to correct our thinking. I would want to take a stance like yardstick and say this is one of the non=essentials agrument, but in some way, even though a lack of agreement does not affect our faith-walk in salvation, the overall depth of what John is seeing in the Heaven is glorious and wonderful and so adds to the magnitude of things beyond our comprehension. The intricate details of the Lord God and how consistent He is in His patterns, and laws and ways and Plan for mankind.... John is seeing how mournful it was in heaven prior to Christ, the Lamb of God, on the cross and then the cross event and what it meant for heaven and earth. John the B here is already defining Jesus, BUT Jesus has not been slain yet...he knows He is the Lamb. The event is not yet 3 1/2 years and yet the Baptist KNOWS the future outcome. He is prophecying to a future event yet Jesus is right there in the present. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
But apostle John needs to be shown from Heaven's point of view what the Lamb means to the world in God's economy. The angel of the Lord had to show John the court room scene that justifies God-man Jesus Christ being worthy to sit at/take scroll from Right Hand of the Father. Whats even more glorious is that there are two twelves of elders PRIOR to the entrance of the Slain Lamb, meaning that from the Beginning God had a plan for both his initial Chosen and the gentile (those outside the court), thank God we have elders to cover our butts, both jew and gentile. The poetry of ch 4 and 5 is something to behold. To say this whole event happens AFTER 90 ad, or even after a rapture (because many teach that 4:1 is the rapture or represents it so everything after is the 7 years ) is to miss the intricate details of God's "court of order." ================================================================================================================================ lets go back to the church letters. so they are to represent visions too? or are actual statements? Those churches existed in John's time. Ok, so where in the BofR is anything from the past written and shown, in general? also, what do 5 of the churches have to overcome and if they do or don't do x,y, z, stuff happen, but was that going on in JOhn's time? Did those churches experience everything said to them from these letters? where are all those present events of those churches fulfilled? If 4:1 is all future, then what do you do with rev 12:1,2? We must surely have been raptured now, and surely the trumpets done, not to mention the seals. But then maybe the Sign of Rev 12 was not the sign of rev 12 to you? How does one saying 4:1 onward is all future yet we had a pretty good account of Rev 12:1,2 and many of us trying to figure out where ch 4-11 are..., actually I have not seen anyone here trying to find what happened to ch 4-11 in this forum.Here is how I take the Book of the Revealing of Jesus to the whole world as He takes over the Final Kingdom and crushes the clay/iron o/ne: There are letters given to the assemblies, prophecies within each letter to each type of church. after the letters are written, John goes up to heaven and is shown WHY Jesus is justified to be ruler over the heavenlies (past event shown and that leads to future events shown). Part of the next chapters are past, likely some present and future events combined within the vision, more visions come and John sees more detail, being shown stuff from PRIOR to 90AD and then perhaps some present stuff but definitely future events, of many things he already saw, but are shown from a different perspective. He sometimes is given an overview, then later is shown more detail of the SAME EXACT EVENT and how it is manifested and WHY, and validation coming in the form of Song from the throne, and peals of thunder and flashes of lightening, etc. The Lord is going to use various stages of His church BODY to bring about the destruction of MB and the beasts that carry her, to begin His reign. That is why it says the BoR is written to the churches and why the focus is on the number 7 in re to the lamps, seals, voices of the messengers, and the cups. Numbers mean things just like words... sigh, The current hypothesis that I have seen here that fits what you are mentioning in the first bolded section, is that each of the visions given in the BoR is a vignette. That some visions are variation of the others, and that some are different perspectives entirely. A case in point is Ch 12 which appears to focus heavily on the pre-AoD events; as there does not appear to be a great deal of detail provided for after the AoD in the entire passage. The exception being verse 17. The last verse. In sum, the story can be told thusly: 1 Description of celestial sign. Currently believed by many to be a timestamp on the timeline of history. Many here believe that it occurred 9/23/17. 2 Description of what could be a specific event, subject to interpretation; but for the sake of continuity of this explanation, could be the 'labor pangs' of the birth of the Kingdom of God. 3 Description of another (of a similar type) celestial sign, another timestamp on the timeline of history, but a common one if one considers that Draco is frequently found annually in the sky. 4a The 'key' indicator that makes a plain old Draco into something more significant (though not a 'great sign' due to its greater frequency) - Some believe this occurred with the Draconids meteor shower last year, which though it occurs annually, does not occur with great intensity as frequently, and for the first time appears with great intensity after the 12:1,2 sign. 4b Did the dragon, as described in 4a stand in front of the woman celestially waiting to devour her child at the moment of birth; or was this a self-intepreting description of who the celestial dragon represents? 5a The birth of the child, the Kingdom of God, from the nation Israel wherefrom salvation has come to all of mankind (Believers) through Jesus 5b Since the Kingdom of God on earth is in the hearts of believers, the child, representing that kingdom is Harpazo'd out of the dragon's reach 6 The woman (the nation Israel) flees to the wilderness. See 13. Requires several of these verses to be different perspectives on the same events - see below 7 The war in Heaven with Satan attempting to take over the Kingdom of God there because that is where it 'physically' is with all the believers there after the Harpazo 8-9 Satan loses and is banished to the earth - just in time to indwell the AC after his 'mortal wound', and just after the AoD (I wonder if the AC gets his mortal wound during/just after the rite which causes the AoD?) 10 Praise to God for the (I would read this as consolidation or completion) of the Kingdom of God in Heaven and the eviction of Satan 11 Description of believers as those who triumphed over Satan by means of the Blood of the Lamb 12 Call to all of Heaven to Praise God and a warning called out to the Earth because Satan is now there and he's very unhappy 13 The Dragon (Satan) realizing he has been evicted and sent to the Earth, and so he pursues the Israeli people as previously described in 6. There is an interesting timeline going on at this point, because it is certainly possible that some of Israel has begun fleeing from a possible invasion (i.e. Ez 38), during which time, the AC does the AoD; prompting flight, gets himself axed and is indwelt all during verses 7-13, which would then be parallels to what is going on on earth at the same time in Israel, where the AC is attempting to conquer what the Israelis would consider to be the Kingdom of God on Earth. 14 The woman (Israel) flees as previously described (maybe to the United States? - there is plenty of speculation about why the US does not appear to be a role player in the end times. Maybe because we are the wilderness? Fun hypothesis...) 15 The Dragon 'gives orders' to his armies to pursue the woman 16 The earth (other countries? peoples? Egypt? literal?) swallows the armies (defeats them?) 17 The Dragon is mad that he was unable to exterminate the Israelis, so he goes after those who become believers after the Harpazo - the 'Tribulation Saints' Note that there does not appear to be any description in any kind of detail about events occurring after the AoD in this passage. Just verse 17, explaining that 'the Dragon makes war against the saints'... BTW, if the Rev 12 passage is the one that supports the Dan 9:27 verse about 7 years Tribulation, this could be the description of the events of the first 3-1/2 years. Has anyone else here had recurring dreams, where the dream, each time you have it varies just a little? Isn't it possible that John not only had those kinds, but also dreams which were describing the same series of events, but in a different way? |
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 21, 2019 7:10:26 GMT -6
uscgvet , just putting forth what the greek translation is showing in regard to the adjective used to say 'no one' was worthy. explain the greek to me not the king james. I don't claim to know any greek. I only claim that the translation you and rt used of "no one" creates a logic issue in the verse.It would be easy to agree with you but I cant because of two or even 3 things. 1. John was mourning, and if he was aware of the gospel while "in the spirit" he would not mourn because don't ya think he would also know that God made everything so should be worthy Himself to open the scroll? But for some reason John mourns. Why? Why when he should know the implications of what Jesus (in the form of man) did way back in 33 ad. The answer to this is actually written: Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
My thoughts:The angel is addressing the crowd of "men" before the throne, as we can see, none of the men can even look upon the scroll to open it thus showing their lack of worthiness.
It doesn't seem that John is even thinking of God as the subject of worthiness here. The question by the angel seems to be addressed to the "men" surrounding the throne.
2. Clearly John knew that Jesus was seated at the Right hand, but from how I read ch 4, John is seeing the form of the Father, not the Son. (I disagree, reason is from what boraddict mentioned and I'll explain below)Maybe this is why he mourns because he is wondering where Jesus is. Revelation 5:4 is the exact reason, there is no need to speculate here.
Isnt Jesus seated at the right hand prior to 90 ad? Yes, many verses throughout the Bible tell us so.Jesus should be in the throne room. He is in the throne room. We just don't see his bodily form; but as boraddict pointed out earlier, we do have Revelation 4:3 describing the "one" sitting on the throne.
The "one" on the throne is described as 3 parts:
a) jasper stone (clear as crystal likely representing God the Father)
b) sardine stone
c) a rainbow (which has 7 colors).
I think it's pretty obvious Jesus is sitting on the throne at the right hand of God the Father from that description. Plus, the crowd is worshiping the "one" on the throne as they should. Jesus had to be in the heavenly throne room otherwise where is He? He is on the throne as you previously stated in part 2. "Clearly John knew that Jesus was seated at the Right hand".He cant be back on earth. I agree with this.That would put him returning to earth in 90 ad.. even if He goes back and forth after the Ascension, shouldn't John KNOW that the slain Lamb was the sacrifice that made atonement? the other element is the new song. It seems to be directly related to the Lamb slain appearance. “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.and then this is sung 10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
why is this song called new and singing it all of sudden? God did not find the slain Lamb worthy until 90ad? That does not make sense to me. verse 10 of Rev 5 was taught by both Peter and Paul prior to 90 ad...it is statement of something that happened prior to 90 ad. and how does Jesus take the scroll from the right hand of whom sits on the throne? 7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
My speculation of the appearance of the Lamb would be to ask this question:
Is the sardine stone still on the throne next to the jasper stone when the Lamb appears?
Maybe Jesus just stood up off the throne as the Lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes (Holy Spirit)... turned around and took the scroll. We do know from Stephen's account, before he was stoned to death, that Jesus was standing next to the throne.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 21, 2019 7:13:35 GMT -6
yardstick, yes While I see the point of the phrase "after this" I do also believe that back in the day, people could only share the scriptures orally if they were not readers. Those wanting to know their Lord shared deeply the things told to them and walked in the faith of what they heard. So it does not surprise me that John being in heaven and being shown so many things to come must also be shown things that set up the reasons for the things that happen after these things. He could share these details from the vision to give greater depth to thing about to take place. And, when I read Revelation, there seems parts of these spiritual visions seem to be past events that have been on going and he is shown what happens to it in the future.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 21, 2019 7:30:39 GMT -6
Wouldn't it be considered a lie to state that "you are about to see something in the future" and then immediately follow into showing the person the past?
I think an atheist would tear that apart, and I would feel compelled to agree with him.
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Post by yardstick on Oct 21, 2019 15:17:26 GMT -6
yardstick , yes While I see the point of the phrase "after this" I do also believe that back in the day, people could only share the scriptures orally if they were not readers. Those wanting to know their Lord shared deeply the things told to them and walked in the faith of what they heard. So it does not surprise me that John being in heaven and being shown so many things to come must also be shown things that set up the reasons for the things that happen after these things. He could share these details from the vision to give greater depth to thing about to take place. And, when I read Revelation, there seems parts of these spiritual visions seem to be past events that have been on going and he is shown what happens to it in the future. I had to add in my last post that I believe its possible that Rev 12 supports the Dan 9:27 view of a 7 year Tribulation, if one considers that the description in Rev 12 covers the time period (3-1/2 years or so) prior to the AoD. (The woman fleeing into the wilderness would be the dividing line, per Matt 24 - 'when you see this, flee and do not go back to get your stuff') We have had a good debate about what appears to be Dan 9:27 standing alone as the sole indicator of a 7 year Trib. But if Rev 12 describes the first 3-1/2 years, and by the absence of anything related to details after the AoD, then it would stand in support of Dan 9:27. I mention this because of what I had posted above about different parts of Rev being vignettes; and thus, by extension, there can be no necessary continuity of time from one chapter, or vignette to the next. There may be chronological continuity, but there does not have to be. And since there does not have to be, then its certainly possible that there isn't. If this is so, then the discussion about events occurring from Ch 4 through 11, other than them being in the future from John's perspective, can allow for non-chronological continuity (from one event/vignette to the next). They may even allow for repetition, perspective change, or even parallel events (depending on what it is). |
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