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Post by rt on Oct 17, 2019 9:04:03 GMT -6
uscgvet , hi there, I have been following the discussion here, but have not had time to respond to all the posts. Today I finally have a bit of free time to do so. Let me know if I am correctly understanding you, according to what you have posted you understand that: *Events from chapter 4 onward are all future *Since Jesus is God, He is present in chapter 4 in the person of God as He sits on the throne * The "new song" is sung as a prerequisite to the opening of the scroll, meaning they sing it in retrospect showing that the atonement is required for the opening of the scroll. If this is what you understand, let me ask you a couple questions: First of all, did you actually read through my original post? You did not answer this question: cont'd...
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Post by rt on Oct 17, 2019 9:40:43 GMT -6
cont'd... If as you claim the "one sitting on the throne" in Revelation 4:1 is Jesus in the person of God, then how do you explain the entrance of the lamb that is slain in chapter 5? If Jesus is on the throne in Chapter 4 how does He then appear as the lamb that was slain in chapter 5, does He cease to be on the throne and switch to being the Lamb? Is he both on the throne and the Lamb standing as if slain? Remember what we are told- no one is worthy to open the scroll, no one in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. Then one of the elders tells John who is violently weeping, that the Lion of Judah has overcome, which makes it possible for Him to open the scroll. Then immediately John sees the Lamb standing as if slain appear, now here's an important tidbit, Jesus came up to the one sitting on the throne and took the scroll from Him, how do you explain that? If Jesus is the one sitting on the throne, how does he also come and take the scroll from himself? Yes Jesus is God, I do adhere to the doctrine of the trinity. But The Father, Son and Holy Spirit also act independently in a physical way, though they are spiritually one. Consider these verses: When Jesus came down from heaven to live as a man among men on earth, was the throne empty in heaven? Was God the Father still on the throne? Consider these passages: There are many other passages that show that Jesus was on earth as a man, while His Father was in heaven. Therefore it is not at all unreasonable to conclude that the One who sits on the throne in chapter 4 of the Revelation is God the Father, and the Lamb that appears before the throne, standing as if slain is indeed Jesus who had "overcome" so that He could take the scroll from His Father and now being worthy could open it. When Jesus took the book, the New Song is sung in response to what was just happening, this is the song of the new covenant, they are singing about why The Lamb was now worthy to take the book and open it and what made Him worthy? NOT a future event, it cannot be, since the Lamb took the book from the One sitting on the throne, and this song was sung in direct response to that action, and we know that John already told us that we have been made (past tense) a kingdom and priests to God, it is illogical to conclude that this event happens in the future. The future part is "and they will reign upon the earth". I know it's really hard to wrap your head around this idea, It took me years of study and having to set aside preconceived ideas to see it myself, but once I did it was like a light bulb moment. I still adhere to a pre trib rapture, I just don't include the first four seal horses and riders within the tribulation week. I would encourage you to go back and re-read my original post more carefully. And also read my thoughts on a revised pre trib rapture here board.unsealed.org/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture. I don't claim to have it all figured out, and I am willing to debate my thoughts and have changed my position many times on various things. In the end we may have to just agree to disagree as brothers and sisters in Christ and continue to press on in our faith together.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 17, 2019 12:16:34 GMT -6
uscgvet , hi there, I have been following the discussion here, but have not had time to respond to all the posts. Today I finally have a bit of free time to do so. Let me know if I am correctly understanding you, according to what you have posted you understand that: *Events from chapter 4 onward are all future *Since Jesus is God, He is present in chapter 4 in the person of God as He sits on the throne * The "new song" is sung as a prerequisite to the opening of the scroll, meaning they sing it in retrospect showing that the atonement is required for the opening of the scroll. If this is what you understand, let me ask you a couple questions: First of all, did you actually read through my original post? You did not answer this question: cont'd... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revelation 1:4-8 is a seal of John's testament of who confirms what is about to be said as a witness' testimony. John describes the Godhead as the trinity (Father, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ) in these 5 verses basically stating that this is who gave him what he is about to describe to the reader as a testimony directly from Christ. You should believe it because it's from God. This is sort of like what we do when we stand before a court judge and place our hand on the Holy Bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, So Help Me God.He is addressing this God-witnessed testimony to the 7 churches. Revelation 1:4-8 is "present" tense as John is penning the actual letter in 95 AD (or whenever). It's the same an eye witness would do when writing his account of what he saw while at a police station being interrogated or questioned by detectives:I, John, affirm by God (the Trinity described) that what I saw that day, not long ago, is the truth. I saw it in the Spirit. I'm addressing this to the 7 churches as my testimony... of Christ's testimony... as He gave it to me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Revelation 1:10 through Revelation 4:1 are all written in the present tense describing what was witnessed when he had the vision. The vision itself, as an entity, was received not long before John penned it to paper. Lets for the sake of argument call the vision a VHS tape. For arguments sake let's pretend the VHS tape itself is about 5 years old and John is about to write whats on the tape. Revelation 1:10 is where John receives the VHS Tape 5 years ago and hits play. John starts to write what he sees on the tape. Revelation 1:11 - Revelation 3:22 in the VHS Tape are all present with respect to John's present time as he's watching the tape. But since the recording was 5 years ago, it's not that long ago. It could be past, but its really sort of present. Revelation 4:1 is where the voice on the VHS Tape tells John, what you are about to see is future. ("and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.") Then on the VHS Tape, John is whisked up to Heaven and sees the Godhead as the Father seated on the Throne, and the Holy Spirit as 7 flames (and potentially "the church" under the 7 flames... as candlesticks?). The lamb (Jesus Christ) in the vision is not visible just yet but we get to see Him later as the VHS tape plays on. Now, what you are implying is that Chapter 5 is a past event, that it's the actual ascension of Christ that happened 60 years earlier from the perspective of being in Heaven. I have to completely disagree. I see a throne room scene on the VHS Tape, as John wrote it, that had 2 of the persons of God and then we pan around and see the 3rd appear, The Lamb, later on as the tape progresses. Nothing in Rev says this was the actual ascension. At no point does the voice say this is a historically past event playing out, we in fact have the complete opposite, it's future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Then the tape moves on to the wrath of God. The tape ends at Revelation 22:6. Then we have the closing remarks of the book after Rev 22:6. That is what I see when I read Revelation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now when you ask "How do you reconcile this:" with Revelation 1:5–6 vs Revelation 5:9–10 "How can it be both past and future?" I say that: the first is a seal of his testimony, identifying who authorized and gave the visual account; (I do solemnly affirm that God gave me this vision) the second is a play out of a recording of what was seen in heaven as a future event.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 17, 2019 13:09:30 GMT -6
I'll try to quickly answer these 3 question first before reading the rest of what you wrote. ( I haven't read it yet as I type this)
1. a. Trinity (as described in Revelation 1:4-8), this is a foundational requirement of being a Christian. Way too much to write here on this topic. 1. b. As for how to explain the entrance: Nobody knows how the Lamb just all of a sudden appeared in the midst of the crowd before the throne. It wasn't recorded by John. We do know that Jesus can "bodily" appear and disappear at will.
2. a. Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. = Holy Spirit
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. = BOTH Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in one!
Acts 2:2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. b. No, he's all 3 at the same time. (Trinity (as described in Revelation 1:4-8))
3. Yes, both ...and he is also the seven Spirits of God as we see in Revelation 5:6.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 17, 2019 14:50:27 GMT -6
uscgvet, you are working on a lot of information at one time. So I would recommend smaller bites as in Rev. 4:2 wherein God is upon the throne and then Rev. 4:3 wherein he is described in terms of three stones to wit: jasper, sardine, and emerald (KJV). Thus it is easy to see that God on the throne includes three; The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. From this you can link to the end of the book in Chapters 21/22 and see the stone references again. As in the "jasper stone clear as crystal" (Rev. 21:11) and of course this is the Father; (Rev. 22:1 etc). The sardine represents Christ in the above referenced verses, and the emerald represents the Holy Ghost.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 17, 2019 16:13:45 GMT -6
uscgvet, you are working on a lot of information at one time. So I would recommend smaller bites as in Rev. 4:2 wherein God is upon the throne and then Rev. 4:3 wherein he is described in terms of three stones to wit: jasper, sardine, and emerald (KJV). Thus it is easy to see that God on the throne includes three; The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. From this you can link to the end of the book in Chapters 21/22 and see the stone references again. As in the "jasper stone clear as crystal" (Rev. 21:11) and of course this is the Father; (Rev. 22:1 etc). The sardine represents Christ in the above referenced verses, and the emerald represents the Holy Ghost. Well, the rainbow ( 7 colors/7 flames/7 horns/7 eyes/ {7 candlesticks possibly?} ) that was round about the throne was like an emerald, so that is the Holy Spirit. But yeah! Thank you.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 17, 2019 22:01:20 GMT -6
uscgvet, you are working on a lot of information at one time. So I would recommend smaller bites as in Rev. 4:2 wherein God is upon the throne and then Rev. 4:3 wherein he is described in terms of three stones to wit: jasper, sardine, and emerald (KJV). Thus it is easy to see that God on the throne includes three; The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. From this you can link to the end of the book in Chapters 21/22 and see the stone references again. As in the "jasper stone clear as crystal" (Rev. 21:11) and of course this is the Father; (Rev. 22:1 etc). The sardine represents Christ in the above referenced verses, and the emerald represents the Holy Ghost. Well, the rainbow ( 7 colors/7 flames/7 horns/7 eyes/ {7 candlesticks possibly?} ) that was round about the throne was like an emerald, so that is the Holy Spirit. But yeah! Thank you. You make a good point about the rainbow. I understand the phrase "round about the throne" in Rev. 4:3 (KJV) to mean not only the throne location but before, behind, and to the sides of the throne. Something like several feet or hundreds of feet. It follows that "the seats" (Rev. 4:4) being "round about the throne" are in the same space as the Holy Ghost that is "round about the throne (seen like unto an emerald in Rev. 4:3)." These seats have 24 elders seated upon them; therefore, these 24 elders are in the same space as the Holy Ghost. Then in Rev. 4:6 we see that in the midst of the throne as well as "round about the throne" are four beasts. Since only The Father and Son are in the midst of the throne (Rev. 4:2-3) and 24 elders are "round about the throne" then two of the beasts are The Father and Son and two of the beasts are two of the 24 elders. That is, the four beasts are The Father, The Son, and two elders. These four individuals are stated in Rev. 1:1 as: 1) The revelation of Jesus Christ (in the midst of the throne) 2) which God (The Father in the midst of the throne) gave unto him to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass 3) and he (Jesus) sent and signified it by his angel (one of the 24 elders round about the throne) 4) unto his servant John (one of the 24 elders in the midst of the throne) In support of this analysis Rev. 1:13 shows that John was in the presence of the throne wherein he saw seven candlesticks (round about the throne in the same space as the Holy Ghost) with the Savior in the midst; on the throne. Thus, John was one of the 24 elders in Rev. 4 etc. Keep in mind that this is my personal analysis and not representative of any church doctrine. Post Script: It follows that anyone having the Holy Ghost as a companion is likewise round about the throne of God. From this it follows that anyone round about the throne of God is one of the seven spirits of God and of the seven churches as identified in Rev. 2-3.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 18, 2019 13:27:36 GMT -6
when He disappears, is He, like, ineligible? or temporarily loses His authority or is temporarily unworthy? because it seems NO ONE was FOUND worthy til the slain Lamb shows up.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
to start guessing where Jesus was while everyone was looking for a worthy one (everywhere above and below) to open the book seems to be about a stretch as John being called up to heaven as the only account of the Rapture we have in Revelation
Unless of course only stuff of this nature can happen in heaven, but wait, then how will His will be done on earth, then?
big sigh.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 18, 2019 18:06:10 GMT -6
when He disappears, is He, like, ineligible? or temporarily loses His authority or is temporarily unworthy? because it seems NO ONE was FOUND worthy til the slain Lamb shows up.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;to start guessing where Jesus was while everyone was looking for a worthy one (everywhere above and below) to open the book seems to be about a stretch as John being called up to heaven as the only account of the Rapture we have in Revelation Unless of course only stuff of this nature can happen in heaven, but wait, then how will His will be done on earth, then? big sigh. Try again with the King James Version. Words matter... And John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 18, 2019 19:04:07 GMT -6
uscgvet, your point? I tend to check the greek meanings, especially in debate purposes because essence/meaning matters. I read the kjv and it actually supports the notion of John seeing what it looked like from Heavens point of view when Jesus was sacrificed on the cross...
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 18, 2019 19:06:20 GMT -6
uscgvet, in fact it makes a huge point that the players of ch 4 are two separate entities. One on the thrown, and one from the tribe of Judah having the flesh aspect, being able to take the scroll form the right hand of one on the throne.
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 18, 2019 19:21:01 GMT -6
What's the difference between a man and a lamb?
A man couldn't be found, but all of a sudden, a lamb appeared.
Go back to Abraham. In Abraham's case, a man was found and there wasn't a lamb... but then all of a sudden, a lamb appeared.
WORDS MATTER!
It wasn't a man that opened the scroll. It was a Lamb.
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Post by boraddict on Oct 18, 2019 21:15:47 GMT -6
Continuing with my analysis from my previous post: we have John on the isle of Patmos (Rev. 1:9) having the Holy Ghost and he (John) is before the throne of God. Although, that throne may be thousands or millions of miles away, the fact remains that John was before the throne by virtue of him having the Holy Ghost as a companion and the Holy Ghost is round about the throne (Rev. 4:2-3).
So we have John before the throne of God, even though he is at the isle of Patmos.
Next, John sees the Savior in the midst of the seven candlesticks (Rev. 1:13). We know that these seven candlesticks are the seven churches (Rev. 1:20). Therefore, before the throne of God in the same space as the Holy Ghost are the seven churches; additionally in this space are the 24 elders (Rev. 4:4).
Next, John sees an event as described in Rev. 4:8 wherein these four individuals (as referenced in Rev. 1:1) saying "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty which was, and is, and is to come." That is, John sees the four individuals as referenced in Verse 1:1 saying this about Christ of which he (John) and Christ are two of the participants saying these words. Therefore, within the vision that John is seeing of which started at Patmos (Rev. 1:9) and wherein he (John) was called up to heaven (Rev. 4:1); he now sees a future event. That is, prior to this point in Chapter 4 John is viewing within the vision the interactions between God and the church from the perspective of a future event; but now he begins viewing a new dynamic within the vision wherein he is more of an active participant as one of the 4 beasts.
That is, the vision in which John began seeing and participating within in Chapter 1 expands in Chapter 4 wherein he is called to heaven (Rev. 4:1) to participate more abundantly in the vision. This participation includes John witnessing himself in an active future role as one of the four beasts (Rev. 4:8).
Next we see the Savior called to perform a function (Rev. 5:2). Keep in mind that John is still viewing the vision wherein he is a participant and he develops the thought (no doubt given by God) that no one is worthy to answer the call. With this thought John weeps (Rev. 5:4). At this point John is reassured that the Savior will answer the call and in fact has opened the book. That is, John now sees in the vision that Lord Jesus by virtue of giving his life as payment is worthy to open the book (Rev. 6). That is, we are still seeing John participating within the vision seeing the Savior giving his life making him worthy to open the book. Thus, it is a vision of sorts within the vision to quantify what makes the Savior worthy to open the book. Then at Rev. 5:7 the Savior answers the call from Rev. 5:2 and he takes the book. That is, between Verses 5:2 and 5:7 is the proof of Lord Jesus' worthiness to open the book.
Then at Rev. 5:7 we return to John viewing the vision wherein he is a participant as one of the four beasts. That is, John is seeing himself in a future experience wherein he is at a place with the church that I might add includes countless millions as stated in Rev. 7:9 etc. as "a great number that no man could count." That is, we are seeing through John the point in time wherein the Savior takes the book and we will be there with countless millions.
Then beginning at Chapter 6 the Savior opens the book. From this it follows that the seven seals (Chapters 6-11) are the seven seals of the book (Rev. 5:1). Thus, the book is The Book of Revelation as it is opened into reality one seal after another.
Post Script: It follows that after all the seals have been opened then God comes to the earth as described in Chapters 21-22. It was for this reason that John was weeping (Rev. 5:4), for without opening the seals of the book then God would not come to the earth as shown to John in Chapter 4 wherein the earth was a sea of glass (Rev. 4:6, 15:2).
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Post by boraddict on Oct 19, 2019 7:02:43 GMT -6
One final thought that might aid in the panoramic view of Chapters 4 and 5 is the endings of the story as denoted by the lightnings and thunderings in Rev. 4:5.
So we see the ending at Verse 4:5 and then the earth as the sea of glass in Rev. 4:6 to which Chapters 21-22 now apply.
Then, here at Verse 4:6 the four beasts that are the four of Rev. 1:1 come into action; after the ending of the story at Verse 4:5. This means that the story begins with Verse 1:1 at juncture Verse 4:6.
Thus to John, the goal of the story is to get everyone to the sea of glass (Verse 4:6) that is the earth in man's post mortal state.
As a result, the story begins at Verse 4:6 with the four individuals of Verse 1:1 wherein they interact with the church prior to the seals.
Then Chapter 5 shows Lord Jesus as being worthy to open the seals and Chapters 6-11 shows the seals being opened.
Again, the book (KJV) is the Book of Revelation that was given by the four individuals of Verse 1:1 and they are called the four beasts throughout the book.
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Post by Natalie on Oct 19, 2019 8:41:34 GMT -6
Sorry you lost me when you said John sees himself as one of the four living creatures. These are the same creatures the Ezekiel sees (Ezekiel 1:5). They are a type of created heavenly being.
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