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Post by venge on Oct 6, 2019 12:31:47 GMT -6
Revelation 4:1 throws a very serious monkey wrench into your theory. Chapter 4 -> 22 are all future... (just moments after the "come up hither" statement we see this: "and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.") = Future In Revelation 1:19, Christ tells John to write down the past, present, and future. Opening to the Book: Start = Revelation 1:1 End = Revelation 1:9 Past: Start = Revelation 1:10 End = Revelation 1:19 Present: Start = Revelation 1:20 End = Revelation 4:1 Future: Start = Revelation 4:1 (or 4:2) End = Revelation 22:15 Conclusion to the Book: Start = Revelation 22:16 End = Revelation 22:21 John both received this vision and penned the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ long after Christ ascended into Heaven... Hello, Yes, John was told to write down the past, present and the future. And Revelation 4:1 does tell John "I will show you things which must be hereafter". Or rather, things that will happen at the end of the world. Does God just go to the end and say what happens or does he paint a picture for his glory and explain in his own way for he never changes. God shows John a complete chronological sequence of events from the beginning to the end. These events are detailed in the seals, trumpets and vials. That does not mean that the events are all future. He must paint the picture for John even explaining how God geld the book while the lamb was absent from the throne room. And the angelic host give glory and honor and thanks to him on the throne. Yet when the lamb entered the scene, there was a change and suddenly a song was sung to the lamb. Before they gave God the glory but now the host gives the lamb glory as well. This picture painted is not John's future from the vision in the spirit. So the visions he saw were not all future, but the end result was future because it is for the "appointed time". God explains to us a beginning and the end. His saying, let me show you the things that will happen in the future are so because that is the end result of the book. That does not necessarily mean all words from this point on are future. For Rev 12 sais: 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
And that also happened in the past, but is necessary to explain the end result. Christ will have the victory. |
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Post by venge on Oct 6, 2019 12:47:08 GMT -6
You guys do realize that Chapter 5 is just a continuation of Chapter 4 right? Chapters and verses were not part of what John actually penned. Those were added centuries later. Chapter 4 starts of with Jesus Christ flat out telling you that it's future in the very first verse. I'm not going to argue with Christ. Chapter 5 is future. Question... What's the very very first word in Chapter 5? In Ch.4, God holds the book with the 7 seals. Not Christ. Where is he? In Ch. 5, it is said, Christ is not there yet because after the question is asked, verse 7 says: He had been found worthy to receive the book having died on the cross for ours sins. Why show God alone with the book and no Christ if that is future? Did John have to wait 60+ years from Christ death/resurrection/ascension to see his coronation to the right hand of power? Where was Christ those 60+ years? But John had just witnessed Christ ascending to God's throne room and the angels now bowing before him: Whereas before he entered the throne room as slain, the angels gave glory to God alone. But now, the lamb has entered! He had just ascended and no longer is there ONLY God on the throne who they worshipped that held the book with 7 seals. Now God AND the lamb are worshipped. For the first was ONLY God to be worshipped by the 4 living beast and the 24 elders. Then the lamb entered and was found worthy and now is worshipped WITH him. John saw Christ ascension in the past, not John's future. For before the lamb raised into heaven, he had not received power and glory for he was a man despised, but now that he is found worthy: Now he received those things as before he couldnt. So how can he ascended to heaven and not receive these things for 60+ years? How can we recognize that God sat alone on the throne in Ch.4 and at the end of Ch.5 now Christ sits with him. Is that future? Or is that past? |
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 7, 2019 14:36:10 GMT -6
venge and others, are you trinitarian? And I mean that in the very strictest since. Do you believe Jesus is the "I AM"? or not? In this future throne room scene we read in Chapter 4 & 5, God, the One True God, is found in 3 separate physical locations. 1. Seated on the throne
2. ______ ?
3. ______ ?
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Post by mike on Oct 7, 2019 16:48:48 GMT -6
You are undoubtedly mis-interpreting something uscgvet. In no way have I ever got the impression that Venge or any others here hold anything other than a Triune God. It's part of the rules here, therefore moderators would notice this and ask that it not be discussed. |
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 7, 2019 18:16:12 GMT -6
You guys do realize that Chapter 5 is just a continuation of Chapter 4 right? Chapters and verses were not part of what John actually penned. Those were added centuries later. Chapter 4 starts of with Jesus Christ flat out telling you that it's future in the very first verse. I'm not going to argue with Christ. Chapter 5 is future. Question... What's the very very first word in Chapter 5? In Ch.4, God holds the book with the 7 seals. Not Christ. Where is he? Christ is God... He is seated at the throne (Hebrews 1:8); and is before the throne as 7 lamps of fire - the 7 Spirits of God; and is standing before the throne as a slain lamb [with 7 horns and 7 eyes... which are also the 7 Spirits of God] (chapter 5).In Ch. 5, it is said, Christ is not there yet because after the question is asked, verse 7 says: Christ is there because Christ is God. All other points below are moot. The Trinity of God is in play in both Chapter 4 and 5 as one contiguous read not separated by chapter breaks.
He had been found worthy to receive the book having died on the cross for ours sins. Why show God alone with the book and no Christ if that is future? Did John have to wait 60+ years from Christ death/resurrection/ascension to see his coronation to the right hand of power? Where was Christ those 60+ years? But John had just witnessed Christ ascending to God's throne room and the angels now bowing before him: Whereas before he entered the throne room as slain, the angels gave glory to God alone. But now, the lamb has entered! He had just ascended and no longer is there ONLY God on the throne who they worshipped that held the book with 7 seals. Now God AND the lamb are worshipped. For the first was ONLY God to be worshipped by the 4 living beast and the 24 elders. Then the lamb entered and was found worthy and now is worshipped WITH him. John saw Christ ascension in the past, not John's future. For before the lamb raised into heaven, he had not received power and glory for he was a man despised, but now that he is found worthy: Now he received those things as before he couldnt. So how can he ascended to heaven and not receive these things for 60+ years? How can we recognize that God sat alone on the throne in Ch.4 and at the end of Ch.5 now Christ sits with him. Is that future? Or is that past?
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 7, 2019 18:22:31 GMT -6
I'll even go one step further, the Church is there as 7 candlesticks (likely holding the 7 flames of the Spirit of God [Acts 2 for mental picture]).
Revelation 5:9-10 are proof texts that the Church is there (IMHO) which means Rapture has already occurred. "hast redeemed us", that's you and me, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"; we are present to witness this future throne room event in the flesh.
That's enough evidence for me that this event is prophecy (Revelation 1:1) and hasn't happened yet because I'm not in heaven yet to witness it live.
Edit:
I noticed that after I saved this comment and moved my mouse over Revelation 5:9-10, the website quotes from the ESV. Yea, bad form. Go to the KJV. We are there with God in all 3 of His persons.
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 7, 2019 18:44:28 GMT -6
ok, going to take a bit of a nervous step out here, but I feel compelled to speak. mike , you are correct that it is part of the rules here that the Trinity is a core doctrine. It is the one reason I've never spoke about it. Gary , perhaps there needs to be an exception made and a thread created just for it if it is a point of interest for others? I am in agreement with the other core doctrines listed, but this one I have reservations. Having read a bit about Tertullian in the third century who first insisted that God is a Trinity, I found that it wasn't doctrine before that. In fact Tertullian was in opposition to Praxeas and others who held that God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one. I tend to agree as Jesus Himself said, "I and the Father are one." John 10:30. There is much(a horrible understatement) that we don't know about the constitution(the composition) of God. We know that He made us in His image and that He made us to potentially be with Him. He calls us His children. Would that not make us, when we are changed to be "like Him" 1John 3:2, Elohim? Part of His Family? Brothers and Sisters in Christ? We all have His Spirit. Isn't that, now, more than three? I would like to elaborate more, but will stop here. I apologize if this seems like a bombshell, but I used to think the Trinity was just a catholic thing and so took it with a grain of salt. I don't want to shake anyone's beliefs and will not speak about it again if so commanded. It's not a salvation issue.
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Post by mike on Oct 7, 2019 19:42:57 GMT -6
Stormy is this something you have studied? Like on your own with no external influence? It seems like you put time into it thought wise but haven't spoken much about it. Totally guessing here.
I will defer to Gary but I am not in favor of a thread where rules are broken. If you want to PM regarding the subject until then, you are free to do so.
The Trinity is displayed in many places throughout the bible. For example Luke 3:21 where all 3 persons of the Godhead are present
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Post by Gary on Oct 7, 2019 20:21:36 GMT -6
So just for clarification: yes, the doctrine of the Trinity is a very fundamental doctrine to the Christian faith and only a handful of denominations and sects dispute it (JWs, LDS, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc). The reasons why the Christian faith has largely held to the doctrine (and why we do here) are manifold, but I realize I haven't addressed it much before. I think I'll start a quick thread under Apologetics just touching on it. So it isn't a doctrine up for debate here, but that said, Stormy, I really appreciate your gracious speech and gentleness. And the rules also say that while there are certain things that will be taken as certainties here and not up for debates, questions are ok. I would never want this to be a place where certain things are off limits, because this is a family of Christ's disciples where we are sharpening one another, but at the same time, there are a handful of things that are of such importance that they touch to the heart of the faith itself.
Blessings.
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Post by venge on Oct 8, 2019 8:04:18 GMT -6
venge and others, are you trinitarian? And I mean that in the very strictest since. Do you believe Jesus is the "I AM"? or not? In this future throne room scene we read in Chapter 4 & 5, God, the One True God, is found in 3 separate physical locations. 1. Seated on the throne
2. ______ ?
3. ______ ?
Sigh, why are the brothern contentious? Truly, if you have read anything I have said, you would know me. Christ is the one who holds the keys to hell and death. Christ is the son of God and he is the I AM. Christ and the Father are one. And their spirit dwells within us. The trinity in its truest sense. Now, I posted what was written for Christ had not ascended yet being in human form where God only resides. That is why only God was in heaven. They may be one and the same but they are a different as well, for God as man made himself lower then the angels and in so, though the Godhead is 3, the son being God is still made lower than God; yet still being God. And it was necessary in order to bring about the Father’s will. For when Christ rules for 1k years, he will give up all rule himself that way it may not be his, but all belongs to the Father! So, the Father sits in heaven in Ch. 4. Not the son. And the rest I showed for he had not yet ascended and died yet till Ch. 5 making it past. For he had to fulfil the first to bring about the second (N.T.). If you judge me, judge me by my love and my words because you cannot see my works by my faith. I hold to the scripture given to the apostles the best I can and I pray if I’m wrong on any part, God will correct me for I’d rather suffer his chastisement then be lead astray for a Father I love and am willing to die for and be lead by faith. |
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 8, 2019 10:31:58 GMT -6
"So, the Father sits in heaven in Ch. 4. Not the son. "
I have to strongly disagree with this because of the trinity concept.
Where we strongly agree:
In Chapter 4, what's described is God in 2 of the 3 of His persons: The Father and the Holy Spirit.
Where we seem to differ:
Since Jesus is God (we agree on this), I see Jesus is also there on the throne (Hebrews 1:8) receiving worship as God the Father. (the evident disagreement)
My thoughts:
God's form as a lamb (as Jesus the Son of God) isn't visible to the audience prior to verse 6, but that doesn't mean Jesus hadn't ascended into heaven yet...?! It just means Jesus isn't visible to the audience as the lamb until we get to verse 6.
Jesus, being God, was already described visibly as 7 flaming torches ...and... the One sitting on the throne.
Proof text:
John 12:
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Because of this difference rt and venge seem to be applying a theory that everything up to Chapter 5 v6 is a historical moment to be recorded as the "past" due to Christ being the overcomer. Then from there you go on to theorize that 4 of the first seals have already been broken today...
But the only thing we have as information in Chapter 4 & 5 is that God, as a lamb, just wasn't visible to John in the the vision or spirit until we get to verse 6.
As we see, the lamb just suddenly appeared in the midst of the crowd after the question was asked... You say this sudden appearance means it's a historically past event as the ascension;
I say Christ was always there because: 1. He had already physically risen to Heaven, being 60+ years later in this vision; 2. Christ, being God, it was only His form as a slain lamb that was out-of-mind/out-of-sight until verse 6. 3. Because Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1 tell us this is future, hard to deny this fact.
To say this was the actual moment Christ ascended into heaven as a historical event is to kind of a far off stretch for me. There just isn't enough information to make that leap IMHO.
PS:
Please forgive any contentions. I didn't mean to project any bad feelings or thoughts.
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Post by venge on Oct 8, 2019 13:21:18 GMT -6
Us,
You said:
I say Christ was always there because: 1. He had already physically risen to Heaven, being 60+ years later in this vision; 2. Christ, being God, it was only His form as a slain lamb that was out-of-mind/out-of-sight until verse 6. 3. Because Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1 tell us this is future, hard to deny this fact.
You are free to believe what you want. John being shown things that must come hereafter: Does that imply everything from Rev 1 to the end is future? That there is not one part that is past?
If there is 1 thing in Revelation past presented, The rest falls apart. Are you making the claim all of it is future?
John already walked with Christ and knew he sat at the right hand of power. John also knew Christ was slain and resurrected and he saw Christ ascending so he knew where he went. Yet knowing all this and more, the throne room didn’t have Christ in it. It had God. If the readers of the NT got to Revelation, and the throne room began with God and Christ, who would think differently? It would be expected. But that is not what is shown. Why did God show it the way he did and not with Christ in ch. 4?
Why is Christ shown power and riches and glory after God in the future from John? Did Christ not attain all of this when he ascended 60 years prior? But if it be future to John, how is it to be understood?
So, I would like to understand with you the reasoning, but I have questions and concerns. Christ already mentioned the seals in Matthew when he walked, so this wasn’t new info. He did expand on it. Him sitting on the right hand was also talked about. If it was future from 96AD give or take a few, it can be, as you said, future..as it was then. But now, is past to us almost 2k years later. Otherwise, Christ was in the throne as you said, but hidden, and it was future. And whose future was it?
Christ said when we see war, famine and pestilence- not to trouble for these things will happen and they are not the end. That is, they are not the appointed time, they are not the DotL and they are not his wrath. But they are days of sorrow; yet don’t let them trouble you. If the seals shouldn’t trouble us as they are not the end, yet you said they are future, how do we understand his words in both contexts?
If the 5th seal martyrs are all future who ask how long should we wait, do not the others that died almost 2k years ago ask too?
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Post by uscgvet on Oct 8, 2019 14:55:27 GMT -6
You say:
"If there is 1 thing in Revelation past presented, The rest falls apart. Are you making the claim all of it is future?"
I fall back to my previous post that breaks down the identifying parts of past, present, and future for the book. (I'll revise my conclusion-closing statements [start] would be at Rev 22:6 instead of Rev 22:15)
Future starts at Rev 4:1-2 as we read with the word "hereafter" in the KJV. The future vision seems to end at Rev 22:5 where John goes into closing statements from Christ and the main conclusion of the book.
The thing is, even as part of the conclusion, Christ reiterates in Rev 22:7 “And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
You say:
"It would be expected. But that is not what is shown. Why did God show it the way he did and not with Christ in ch. 4?"
My guess would be to elevate the drama and excitement in the air when the main question is asked: "Who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals?"
Like a "Ta-Da" moment. Lo, Here's he is! This guy! The Lamb!
Nowhere does the reader get the impression we are in the past and Christ ascends into the room from Earth. He just appears. As the reader, I get the impression we are in the future because of verse 4:1.
You say:
"And whose future was it?"
John's future. But for readers as well, all who are blessed by reading it; it's a prophecy as Christ said in Rev 22:7.
You say:
"If the 5th seal martyrs are all future who ask how long should we wait, do not the others that died almost 2k years ago ask too?"
The definition of "them" that asked the question is defined as "them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" in Rev 6:9.
The identity of whom makes up this group of "them" wasn't defined. Now we can go into the speculation game all week long on this one, but I'll stand on Rev 4:1, it's future from John's 95-96 AD perspective.
The church is with Christ as 7 candlesticks. It's speculative to say those candlesticks are what's burning with the 7 flames as the 7 Spirits of God. I'll admit that.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. After the Rapture, we will have our glorified bodies...
This is why I feel it's important to utilize the KJV in this topic:
In Rev 5, the word "us" is used to describe "you and me" in Rev 5:9-10, the "redeemed" "by the blood".
In Rev 6, it's the word "them", "they"... not "us".
With that ("us" vs "them"),
I will speculate that the group of "them" in Rev 6:9-10 are the corners of the field... the gleanings.
The new believers who became believers just after the Rapture, murdered for their faith and testimony.
For me to accept that Seals 1-4 or 5 are broken, Rapture would need to have taken place first.
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Post by disciple4life on Oct 8, 2019 22:43:55 GMT -6
I'm sorry - I don't know how to isolate just parts of a post to show what was quoted.
Venge quoted "Christ already mentioned the seals in Matthew when he walked, so this wasn’t new info. He did expand on it. Him sitting on the right hand was also talked about. If it was future from 96AD give or take a few, it can be, as you said, future..as it was then. But now, is past to us almost 2k years later. Otherwise, Christ was in the throne as you said, but hidden, and it was future. And whose future was it?
Christ said when we see war, famine and pestilence- not to trouble for these things will happen and they are not the end. That is, they are not the appointed time, they are not the DotL and they are not his wrath. But they are days of sorrow; yet don’t let them trouble you. If the seals shouldn’t trouble us as they are not the end, yet you said they are future, how do we understand his words in both contexts?"
Ok, first off, I would say that most who have read my posts, know that I'm not mainstream, or not orthodox in some views. ;-) With that said, I try to give supporting scripture, or some documented evidence from history, science or Hebrew culture when I try to make a point.
You said Christ mentioned the seals ?? Where is this?? I miss a lot, and there's so much I don't know - maybe I just overlooked it. He mentioned famines, war, and blood moons, and uses Hebrew idioms that were widely known and instantly recognized to the audience - as did Paul.
You're assuming that just because he mentioned famine and war and death that this means the 4 seals, and then as a leap, that these have been opened.
You haven't given cross references from scripture to show how or why you think the seals have been opened. Nor have you given sources from commentaries, or Bible scholars as to why you believe this.
I often state other scholars hold a view, and that I agree with Amir tsarfati, or Scott Clarke, or Jan Markell or Pastor JD Farag, or Perry Stone, etc. It's rather like saying that since there was a blood moon Tetrad in 2016 that the Tribulation is half over.
The other thing that I think is that you don't seem to acknowledge/ agree with the very distinct difference between the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord.
The reason that this is a very key detail is that Revelation gives multiple events that happen after the pre-tribulation rapture, but it's not the end. Real letters to real churches are in the beginning of the book, and then we see "Come up here" and the church is missing until the end of Revelation.
You said - "Christ said when we see war, famine and pestilence- not to trouble for these things will happen and they are not the end. That is, they are not the appointed time, they are not the DotL and they are not his wrath."
The Day of the Lord IS his Wrath. It has been shown with charts and scriptures over and again, by myself and others - [there's a whole thread about it] that the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord have very clear and distinct different characteristics, different subject, different place, different action and different goal. The Day of Christ is a wedding - it's a celebration, it's a reward - Christ coming for his Bride, and we meet Him in the Air. The Day of the Lord is wrath, judgment, and Christ comes back with his Bride, after being in the wedding chamber -Chuppah.
Which famine or volcano or war passes the litmos test to 'break open the seal' the Irish Potato famine in 1845-1849 which killed 1.5 million, - or was it the Great Chalisa famine in India in 1783. It's a slippery slope. Why did the Great China of 1907 open the seal when 25 million people died, but not the one where 43 million died. ??
Or let's talk about war. We have had war since the Fall of Mankind in the Garden. Was it the Civil War that opened the seal, or was it officially opened with World War 2? Surely you don't think that WWII was the worst war there will be? So why did that one open the seal?
Then, someone can easily say, - I think the fifth seal has been opened because of all the people who were martyred in China, Russia and Viet Nam. The Fourth seal has very clear description - that one fourth of the earth was killed by the sword/ famine/ pestilence. The earth's population has grown at a staggering rate in the last 70 years, even with disease and tsunamis and earthquakes, and wars. That would be 1.5 billion people. So we can grasp the scale, - that would be 4 times the people of the United States dead, or 1.5 times all the Population of Europe dying.
I won't change your mind - and it's not important whether you agree with me or not. The point is There is no criteria from scripture or some special clue from Hebrew culture that tells us the standard to know which famine opens the seal. So it's basically just speculation, in the same way that we can all have opinions about who the 2 witnesses are, and why.
So what is the reasoning from scripture that the first 4 have already been opened, and the others will be opened during the tribulation? This is the real question that I hope you or others can answer.
I like to speculate - I do it a lot with end times stuff - some things we just won't know until we're in Heaven. ;-) It's not my intent to be hostile - I just don't think anyone can give any support from scripture that shows how or why the any of the seals have been opened.
We hold different views on many things- but we all stand united in longing for the glorious appearing of Christ. That's why we're a community of watchmen and not sleepers. ;-)
Come Lord, Jesus
Disciple4life
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Post by daniel on Oct 9, 2019 12:31:39 GMT -6
Two thoughts. #1: A fourth of the earthWhen Rev 6:8 mentions 1/4 of the earth would be killed, perhaps it doesn't have to be all at once. Perhaps 1/4 is for the total number of deaths from sword/famine/pestilence/wild-beasts from the time of Christ's ascension going forward, compared to the total population of man. For every 1 person alive today, there are 15 dead people: www.livescience.com/18336-human-population-dead-living-infographic.html . I haven't studied the numbers to see how many deaths are from the 4 reasons in Rev 6:8, but it seems plausible. #2: Requirements for opening the sealsI've enjoyed reconsidering the seals from the "opisthograph" perspective in the other thread. Maybe this is obvious to everyone else, but it occurred to me recently that Christ's death may be the REQUIREMENT to open the first seal. In the past, I have tended to connect "a seal opens" with "then an action occurs", but I think it could be the other way around: a seal requirement is met (the action), THEN you can open the seal. So maybe it looks like this? Christ's atoning death -> seal 1 can now be opened White horse conquers -> seal 2 can now be opened Red horse takes peace -> seal 3 can now be opened Black horse economics -> seal 4 can now be opened Pale horse 1/4 deaths -> seal 5 can now be opened Unknown martyr count -> seal 6 can now be opened Rapture + catastrophe -> seal 7 can now be opened This would explain why we only observe "silence" after the 7th seal is opened (no remaining requirements), and why Rev 5 was such a big deal. The seals couldn't begin to be broken until the first requirement was met: Christ's atoning death. |
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