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Post by watchman35 on Aug 20, 2019 17:29:47 GMT -6
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Post by venge on Aug 21, 2019 16:06:56 GMT -6
I understand this is your belief but I want to ask questions because if I am ever to agree, I need to know where things are found.
You say in your blog:
2) The structure and content of the Book of Revelation: Church is talked about in chapters 2-3. Then John is called up with a voice like a trumpet through an open door into heaven (4:1).
You need to mention vs 2 where it says : At once I was in the Spirit
John was in the spirit and his flesh and did not enter heaven physically. Proverbs 30:4, John 3:13
John was seeing a vision as other prophets did before him. All in the spirit.
The 24 elders represent the church (maybe I missed some, but the only place I find the number 24 in the Bible with significance is representing the 24 divisions of the Priesthood in the Old Testament). Priests with crowns. A royal priesthood. Sound familiar? That’s us!!! The Church!!! As borne out with the proper translation of we and us in the verses of 5:9-10. We are in heaven around the throne before the first seal is even opened.
If the church is the 24 elders who were raptured and made priest and kings, why are angels made priest and kings too? And if angels are not priest and kings, neither are the 24 elders.
Rev 8:5-10
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So why would angels reign on earth? Did Christ die for them too?
Then we are not mentioned once in chapters 4-18, except arguably in the context of the rapture in Rev 12. Then we come back with Jesus in Rev 19. The whole structure of the Book of Revelation bears witness to a pre-seal, pre-70th-week rapture.
What do you mean we arnt mentioned? The body of Christ is believers right? Who are all the believers God is speaking to in those chapters? When he says here lies the patience of the saints, them that have faith in Christ and do the commandments of God.
If we are removed before the first seal, where is the flood, the reward, the rapture, the bema seat, the voice of an archangel, the last trumpet, and when does the door close? Where are they in Chapters 4-5?
Where is the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin before Chapter 6?
In point 3, you talk about the flood we are removed from. Noah wasn't removed from the flood, he was saved from it, but not removed. Even the Egyptians were killed when the red sea closed on them and the Israelites were saved from it, but not removed. Where is this in Chapters 4-5?
Matthew 24:37 remarks on this saying: 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
And this description of the times of Noah are produced in verses 29-30
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luke expands on what Matthew says below:
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
By this description, the son of man comes after the tribulation as all the tribes of the earth notice. Not just the tribes of the Jews, but all the tribes of the earth.
In point 4, you mentioned we are not for wrath and I agree. But can you show me that seals 1-5 is the wrath of God through vengeance on mankind by him or by the Koine Greek?
In point 6, you mentioned the bride and bridegroom. Is the marriage part of the rapture? Where is the place we find the door shut in scripture when the 5 bridesmaids run out of oil?
Help me to find all of this scripturally. I have posted these questions before, and I have not found anyone to post scripture on them
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2019 16:19:58 GMT -6
(I was typing as Venge posted, so this isn't addressed to him...it's just some thoughts I had today)
I was reading through parts of Rev for a different thread, and came across these ideas The marriage and the supper are announced in Rev 19:7-9 It speaks as the Bride is there and the wedding supper is ready At the end of 19, the beast and false prophet are captured then the beginning of 20, Satan is captured and locked up 20:4 thrones of judgment are set up and the martyrs are raised Those martyred for Christ during the Anti-Christ's reign are not part of the church/Bride. They aren't raised until the 70th week is all wrapped up, after the wedding. The dead in Christ are raised at the rapture prior Anti-Christ. Can't really have a Bride that has been made ready if half the Bride hasn't been resurrected yet. I'm not sure when the supper itself takes place, but I assume it's after the "bad guys" are defeated. So, they could still be wedding guests. |
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
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Post by Beloved on Aug 21, 2019 21:54:07 GMT -6
I understand this is your belief but I want to ask questions because if I am ever to agree, I need to know where things are found. You say in your blog: 2) The structure and content of the Book of Revelation: Church is talked about in chapters 2-3. Then John is called up with a voice like a trumpet through an open door into heaven (4:1). 1. You need to mention vs 2 where it says : At once I was in the Spirit
John was in the spirit and his flesh and did not enter heaven physically. Proverbs 30:4, John 3:13
John was seeing a vision as other prophets did before him. All in the spirit.The 24 elders represent the church (maybe I missed some, but the only place I find the number 24 in the Bible with significance is representing the 24 divisions of the Priesthood in the Old Testament). Priests with crowns. A royal priesthood. Sound familiar? That’s us!!! The Church!!! As borne out with the proper translation of we and us in the verses of 5:9-10. We are in heaven around the throne before the first seal is even opened. 2. If the church is the 24 elders who were raptured and made priest and kings, why are angels made priest and kings too? And if angels are not priest and kings, neither are the 24 elders.
Rev 8:5-10
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
So why would angels reign on earth? Did Christ die for them too?
Then we are not mentioned once in chapters 4-18, except arguably in the context of the rapture in Rev 12. Then we come back with Jesus in Rev 19. The whole structure of the Book of Revelation bears witness to a pre-seal, pre-70th-week rapture.
3. What do you mean we arnt mentioned? The body of Christ is believers right? Who are all the believers God is speaking to in those chapters? When he says here lies the patience of the saints, them that have faith in Christ and do the commandments of God.
4. If we are removed before the first seal, where is the flood, the reward, the rapture, the bema seat, the voice of an archangel, the last trumpet, and when does the door close? Where are they in Chapters 4-5?
5. Where is the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin before Chapter 6?
6. In point 3, you talk about the flood we are removed from. Noah wasn't removed from the flood, he was saved from it, but not removed. Even the Egyptians were killed when the red sea closed on them and the Israelites were saved from it, but not removed. Where is this in Chapters 4-5?
7. Matthew 24:37 remarks on this saying: 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
And this description of the times of Noah are produced in verses 29-30
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luke expands on what Matthew says below:
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
By this description, the son of man comes after the tribulation as all the tribes of the earth notice. Not just the tribes of the Jews, but all the tribes of the earth.
8. In point 4, you mentioned we are not for wrath and I agree. But can you show me that seals 1-5 is the wrath of God through vengeance on mankind by him or by the Koine Greek?
9. In point 6, you mentioned the bride and bridegroom. Is the marriage part of the rapture? Where is the place we find the door shut in scripture when the 5 bridesmaids run out of oil?
Help me to find all of this scripturally. I have posted these questions before, and I have not found anyone to post scripture on themI would be happy to help, dear sir! I have numbered your remarks, and answered them below. 1.I agree that John is in the Spirit. While an allusion is often drawn between these verses and the Rapture, it does not have to be for the pre-trib framework to function just as well as usual. 2.This is a very good question, and requires a detailed answer. For a more complete argument, see the article I’ve posted at the end of this post, from which this argument is derived. The answer to your question lies, per usual, in the original languages. All manuscripts except one have “us” in verse 9 (Alexandrius omits the pronoun entirely). However, there is extremely strong manuscript support for “them” in verse 10, with every manuscript except the Textus Receptus rendering it as such. So, the verses should read, “And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed US for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."” Revelation 5:8-10 ESV This lends itself to an antiphonal arraignment, a call-and-response song (Exodus 15 and Psalm 139 are also antiphonal, so this has Scriptural precedent). The elders sing verse 9, the living creatures sing verse 10, both groups and angels around the throne sing verse 12, and finally all creation sings verse 13. The living creatures say “Amen”, and the elders fall down and worship. From a combination of the speech of verse 9 and the aforementioned royal priesthood, these are the Church. 3.A very, VERY important fact: All members of the Church are believers, but not all believers are members of the Church. Essentially, the Church is a subset of all believers, not equivalent to the entire set. These believers spoken of are saved members of Israel and the Gentiles, called Tribulation Saints. 4.They are not mentioned. Revelation moves from the Church Age (ch. 2-3) to the raptured Church already in heaven, as shown by the presence of the 24 Elders in ch. 4. Revelation doesn’t cover everything; that’s why we have other prophetic scriptures  . 5.The “falling away” has two possibilities: either αποστασία (apostasia) from 2 Thessalonians means “falling away” or “departure”. In both cases (and both are equally supported by the pre-trib framework), again, Revelation moves past it to almost the beginning of the Tribulation. The revealing of the man of sin is generally considered to be concurrent with the opening of the first seal, and is not before ch. 6. 6.The typology actually supports a pre-trib rapture. Enoch, who walked with God, (representing the Church) was taken away by God. “Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24 ESV). Noah represents Israel, who is preserved through the Flood. 7.I perfectly agree that the Son of Man comes at the end of the Tribulation, and all the tribes of man know. 8.As the Church is represented by the 24 Elders, as shown above, such a question is moot. However, seeing as they only do what commanded by God (Zech. 7:6, Rev. 6:2,4,6,8) I would say they are the instruments of God’s wrath, just as Nebuchadnezzar was an instrument of God’s wrath in the past (Hab. 1:6). This would make them God’s wrath. Again, because of the 24 Elders, the question is moot. 9.The marriage occurs after the Rapture. In accordance with Jewish wedding tradition, the betrothed bride waits while the bridegroom builds the house. After that, he comes and gets her at an unknown time, generally after about a year, on the father’s approval. After the wedding proper (sometime before 2nd Coming and after Rapture), there is the wedding supper. In Scripture, this is the Millennial Kingdom, as attributed in many of our Lord’s parables (Matthew 8:11-12, for example. By the way, this talks about how some unbelieving Jews will not enter the Kingdom, while many Gentile Tribulation Saints will). The bridesmaids are not members of the Church; the Church is the bride! These are Tribulation Saints. Some have oil (the five wise, oil being the Holy Spirit), while some do not (the five foolish). The five wise are saved, shown with oil/Holy Spirit. The other five never had any oil at all, and thus do not enter the Kingdom, for he never knew them. A quick note on Matthew 24:31; this is not the Rapture. Rather, it is the fulfillment of OT prophecy: “In that day from the river Euphrates to the Brook of Egypt the LORD will thresh out the grain, and you will be gleaned one by one, O people of Israel. And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.” Isaiah 27:12-13 ESV “If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you.” Deuteronomy 30:4 ESV In these verses, Israel is the elect (they are called such in Isaiah 42:1, 45:4, etc. For more info, see the second article below. www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1711-elders-revisited.htmwww.alittlestrength.com/articles/2015/1506-square-peg.htm |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 21, 2019 23:01:48 GMT -6
(I was typing as Venge posted, so this isn't addressed to him...it's just some thoughts I had today)
I was reading through parts of Rev for a different thread, and came across these ideas The marriage and the supper are announced in Rev 19:7-9 It speaks as the Bride is there and the wedding supper is ready At the end of 19, the beast and false prophet are captured then the beginning of 20, Satan is captured and locked up 20:4 thrones of judgment are set up and the martyrs are raised Those martyred for Christ during the Anti-Christ's reign are not part of the church/Bride. They aren't raised until the 70th week is all wrapped up, after the wedding. The dead in Christ are raised at the rapture prior Anti-Christ. Can't really have a Bride that has been made ready if half the Bride hasn't been resurrected yet. I'm not sure when the supper itself takes place, but I assume it's after the "bad guys" are defeated. So, they could still be wedding guests. Natalie, your post made me think of the Savior's ministry and the order of events at that time. 1) 40 day fast 2) called disciples 3) attended the wedding 4) etc. Perhaps the Savior's ministry is a type for coming events. |
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Post by venge on Aug 22, 2019 13:51:37 GMT -6
Beloved 1) Then we can remove your point 1 as "it does not need to be in the framework". 2) The versus do not separate the context. In verse 9, the "they" that sings are both elders and angels. They do not sing separately. The "they" being 2 or more people/things ref. back to the preceding verse (8) as elders and living beasts (angels). Why are the angels redeemed by the blood of Christ? Please answer that question. If the elders are the church and they sing "with" the angels and both say "us" referring to the elders and the angels...why are the angels redeemed? 3) You said: not all believers are members of the Church. Is there scripture for that? We are not talking about unsaved or backslidden people. We are talking about believers. Are we not 1 body or are we 2 bodies in Christ? You said that "these believers are not members of the Church". I have never read tribulation saints in the Bible. We have saints that believe and we call them Christians. There are Christians in the tribulation that die (5th seal) and afterwards there are some in the trumpets. But none are in the bowls that we can tell. Tribulation is persecution. Not wrath. Transliteration: thlipsis Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis) Definition: tribulation Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation. We endure persecution all the day long and we are like sheep for the slaughter are we not? We do not escape slaughter because we believe. Neither did Paul, Polycarp, James and thousands of others since Christ ascended. And we continue to die a martyr even today in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan as we are all one body. We are never told we escape man, we only escape God's wrath which tribulation is not. 4) Then you said: Agreed, they are not mentioned in Ch. 4-5. There is no evidence to support a pre trib theory in Ch. 4-5 regarding The bema seat, the rewards, the rapture event, the door being closed, the flood or the marriage...etc For revelation to move from the church age to the elders would have to show one of those things listed. It shows none of them. Not 1. What those chapters show is ecclesia. But the church is not absent when its people are labeled as martyrs, saints, those that do the commandments of God and faith in Christ Jesus etc... I have to disagree with you on the last comment, Revelation does cover everything my friend. The Lord left nothing out. All those things I listed are there in Revelation. 5) If the 1st seal is the revealing of the man of sin, why do you believe you are removed before it? The day of the Lord does not come till the man of sin is revealed - so how can you be raptured before he is revealed if the DotL hasnt come yet? Our gathering together to Christ will not come TILL the man of sin is revealed which means you will see it. You cannot be gone before it happens. 6) You said: Noah represents Israel, who is preserved through the Flood. Israel is anyone that has faith in Christ and follows God's commandments; Jew or Gentile. Noah is saved from the flood, and the Jews were saved from the flood as well. But both of them were still there before the flood. Yet a flood is not mentioned in Ch. 4-6 7) Then you agree that this is the 2nd Advent? For the Lord comes from heaven only one more time..not 2 or 3 or 4 more times. 8) I still do not see the church in the 24 elders. Please ref. back to my statement that the elders with w/the angels and angels cannot be redeemed by the blood of Christ nor can they be made priest and kings and reign on earth. You justify the elders as God's wrath to try to justify anything after Rev 5 is the wrath? Yet the angels, not elders, are the ones that blow the Trumpets and pour the vials. 9) Ok, the marriage comes AFTER the rapture. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 are raptured when the invite goes out to meet Christ. In verse 10, its says they went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut. The door does not shut till they go with him to the marriage. In revelation, the marriage happens way later on meaning that door is open the whole time. And if the door is open, we did not go in to be raptured yet. I don't see a waiting period described as you put it. The rapture happens to bring us to the marriage. They are 1 together. You then said: The bridesmaids are not members of the Church; the Church is the bride! What! The bridesmaids are not members of the Church? What then are they? 5 of them are members of the church and are of the church and the body of Christ. 5 of them are raptured and called to the wedding! 5 of them are not of the body of Christ. --If the 2nd advent is after the wedding as you say, then how do we rapture at His coming before the wedding? He only comes 1 more time. You make it sound as if there are 3 advents....
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
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Post by Beloved on Aug 22, 2019 17:24:53 GMT -6
Beloved 1) Then we can remove your point 1 as "it does not need to be in the framework". 2) The versus do not separate the context. In verse 9, the "they" that sings are both elders and angels. They do not sing separately. The "they" being 2 or more people/things ref. back to the preceding verse (8) as elders and living beasts (angels). Why are the angels redeemed by the blood of Christ? Please answer that question. If the elders are the church and they sing "with" the angels and both say "us" referring to the elders and the angels...why are the angels redeemed? 3) You said: not all believers are members of the Church. Is there scripture for that? We are not talking about unsaved or backslidden people. We are talking about believers. Are we not 1 body or are we 2 bodies in Christ? You said that "these believers are not members of the Church". I have never read tribulation saints in the Bible. We have saints that believe and we call them Christians. There are Christians in the tribulation that die (5th seal) and afterwards there are some in the trumpets. But none are in the bowls that we can tell. Tribulation is persecution. Not wrath. Transliteration: thlipsis Phonetic Spelling: (thlip'-sis) Definition: tribulation Usage: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation. We endure persecution all the day long and we are like sheep for the slaughter are we not? We do not escape slaughter because we believe. Neither did Paul, Polycarp, James and thousands of others since Christ ascended. And we continue to die a martyr even today in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan as we are all one body. We are never told we escape man, we only escape God's wrath which tribulation is not. 4) Then you said: Agreed, they are not mentioned in Ch. 4-5. There is no evidence to support a pre trib theory in Ch. 4-5 regarding The bema seat, the rewards, the rapture event, the door being closed, the flood or the marriage...etc For revelation to move from the church age to the elders would have to show one of those things listed. It shows none of them. Not 1. What those chapters show is ecclesia. But the church is not absent when its people are labeled as martyrs, saints, those that do the commandments of God and faith in Christ Jesus etc... I have to disagree with you on the last comment, Revelation does cover everything my friend. The Lord left nothing out. All those things I listed are there in Revelation. 5) If the 1st seal is the revealing of the man of sin, why do you believe you are removed before it? The day of the Lord does not come till the man of sin is revealed - so how can you be raptured before he is revealed if the DotL hasnt come yet? Our gathering together to Christ will not come TILL the man of sin is revealed which means you will see it. You cannot be gone before it happens. 6) You said: Noah represents Israel, who is preserved through the Flood. Israel is anyone that has faith in Christ and follows God's commandments; Jew or Gentile. Noah is saved from the flood, and the Jews were saved from the flood as well. But both of them were still there before the flood. Yet a flood is not mentioned in Ch. 4-6 7) Then you agree that this is the 2nd Advent? For the Lord comes from heaven only one more time..not 2 or 3 or 4 more times. 8) I still do not see the church in the 24 elders. Please ref. back to my statement that the elders with w/the angels and angels cannot be redeemed by the blood of Christ nor can they be made priest and kings and reign on earth. You justify the elders as God's wrath to try to justify anything after Rev 5 is the wrath? Yet the angels, not elders, are the ones that blow the Trumpets and pour the vials. 9) Ok, the marriage comes AFTER the rapture. In the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 are raptured when the invite goes out to meet Christ. In verse 10, its says they went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut. The door does not shut till they go with him to the marriage. In revelation, the marriage happens way later on meaning that door is open the whole time. And if the door is open, we did not go in to be raptured yet. I don't see a waiting period described as you put it. The rapture happens to bring us to the marriage. They are 1 together. You then said: The bridesmaids are not members of the Church; the Church is the bride! What! The bridesmaids are not members of the Church? What then are they? 5 of them are members of the church and are of the church and the body of Christ. 5 of them are raptured and called to the wedding! 5 of them are not of the body of Christ. --If the 2nd advent is after the wedding as you say, then how do we rapture at His coming before the wedding? He only comes 1 more time. You make it sound as if there are 3 advents.... Thanks for the timely and apt response! I'll keep our numbering system as is for my next response . 1. Agreed. This verse is not a deciding factor in the proof of the pre-trib model. 2. Of course. As stated before, the manuscript evidence supports a first person plural pronoun in verse 9 (us), while it supports a third person plural pronoun in verse 10 (them). This lends itself to an antiphonal (call-and-response) type song; the 24 elders sing verse 9, the living creatures sing verse 10, the heavenly host sings verse 12, and all creation sings verse 13 (oh how I love these verses  ). Thus, the angels never sing anything about being redeemed; they sing about the redeemed elders in verse 10, and the elders sing about themselves being redeemed in verse 9. For more information, check out my previous post under #2, and the first article I linked. 3. This one's on me; I stated this rather poorly . All believers during this time period are part of the Church, but believers before and after the Church Age (Pentecost cir. 33AD - Rapture) are not part of the Church. Those believers in the 70th Week are not part of Christ's body. Rather, they "are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes" (Rev. 7:14b-17). They serve in the temple; the Church IS the temple, for as God says, "The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name" (Rev. 3:12), and "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?" (1 Cor 3:16). Two different groups of people. In this earth, we will indeed face trial and tribulation, as the Lord says (John 16:33). However, this does not mean we will face the 70th Week of Daniel, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, the Day of the LORD (all the same event). We do, by convention, call this period 'the Tribulation'; however, this isn't super Scriptural (Jesus calls the second half of the 70th Week 'great tribulation', but this includes the bowls, which both your and my models reject as having the Church within. He does say that believers in that time period will face 'tribulation' in the first half, but this is not a title; he's saying they'll face persecution). You said in your response that the DotL begins after the man of sin is revealed; I agree. The confirmation of the covenant reveals the Antichrist and starts the Week/DotL. However, God says through Zephaniah that this is the Day of his wrath, saying "Gather yourselves, gather together, O shameful nation, before the decree takes effect and the day passes like chaff, before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you, before the Day of the LORD’s anger comes upon you" (Zeph. 2:1-2). The DotL is the Day of the LORD's wrath, and thus the entire 70th Week is the day of the LORD's anger. 4. The WHOLE of Scripture tells the whole story. However, no one part contains all of it. For example, Revelation has no trace of the confirmation of the covenant that kicks off the 70th Week; however, Daniel does. We integrate the two together to get a more complete story. It is the same with the Bema seat and rewards; it isn't in Revelation, but it's in other places, and we integrate them together to tell the full story. The Church is shown Raptured and glorified as the 24 elders. It moved from the Church Age to nigh the beginning of the 70th week, skipping over the transitional period. We gather information on that period from the rest of Scripture. Those people are the aforementioned saints in the 70th Week (tribulation saints, if you will, at risk of supporting a bad convention), which are the ones who keep the commandments of God, etc.. 5. I agree with your analysis that the DotL occurs after the man of sin. However, the Rapture is a separate event from the 70th Week. One way to show this is by the aforementioned verse in Zephaniah, which associates the entire Day with God's wrath. Since we are not appointed to wrath, we are out before the Day. Another way stems from Matthew 24:43-44: "But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect''. If the Rapture can be conclusively proved to occur in the 70th Week, then that runs afoul of the attitude Jesus commands us to have, one of watchfulness. If the Rapture occurs in the 70th Week, then no one would have to watch until the man of sin was revealed, running afoul of the aforementioned verses. Therefore, the Rapture cannot be proven to occur in the 70th Week. Other arguments, like the one above, are then used to prove it occurs before the Week, which does not run afoul of Jesus's words, for then it could occur at theoretically any time, promoting watchfulness. 6. Israel is the group of people descended from Jacob. In the next sentence, I will be referring to the metaphor Romans 11:16-24. While we are spiritually part of Abraham's family (we have been grafted into the olive tree of the saved, of which Abraham and the promise given to him is the root), we are not Israel (the natural branch). The Church is a new people made up of people originally from both Israel and the Gentiles but are now distinct from both (Ephesians 2:14-16). We are Enoch, and the saved of natural Israel are Noah. 7. Indeed, the Lord returns from Heaven once more to Earth. However, the Rapture is not an advent. The Lord comes down to the first heaven, the atmosphere (the clouds, if you will). There, he calls up the Church, and takes them back to Heaven. However, He did not return to the Earth; he merely gathered up His people from the Earth while being in the atmosphere. When the Lord returns from Heaven at the end of the 70th Week, He shall return to the place he left from, and stand on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). This event is the Second Coming described also in Matthew 24:29-31; He has returned from the heavens and is now on the Earth. The Rapture is no advent at all, but rather a collection of His Body to save it from the terrible time of wrath to come. 8. I have answered the question of the Elders in point 2 in this post and the post before, as you well know by now . Ach! I have mistyped! The instruments of God's Wrath I speak of are the Four Horsemen! A thousand apologies to you, my friend. These sentences in brackets speak of the first four seals and the Four Horsemen, NOT the 24 elders. [However, seeing as they only do what commanded by God (Zech. 6:7, Rev. 6:2,4,6,8) I would say they are the instruments of God’s wrath, just as Nebuchadnezzar was an instrument of God’s wrath in the past (Hab. 1:6). This would make them God’s wrath.] Again, a thousand apologies. 9. Sorry if I was unclear in my response. The Jewish wedding occurs BEFORE the wedding feast. The 'wedding' occurs sometime in Heaven between the Rapture and the Second Coming. The Wedding Feast is the Millennial Kingdom. This parable is not about the Rapture, but rather the Sheep and Goats judgement, where the Lord will determine who enters the 'wedding feast' (the Millennial Kingdom). The bridesmaids are saints from the 70th Week, not members of the Church (who was taken out before the 70th Week). The Church is the Bride of Christ (1 Cor. 11:2, Eph. 5:25-27). Some, saved, are equivalent to the Sheep of the Sheep and Goats Judgement; they go into the Wedding Feast, the Millennial Kingdom. They had oil, symbol of the Holy Spirit, showing they were saved. The five foolish are the Goats, who go to the lake of fire. This parable has nothing to do with the Rapture; it is of the question of who of the people in the 70th Week (NOT the Church) will enter the Kingdom. The answer, of course, is the saved, the Five Wise. Thanks for your time! |
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2019 18:08:02 GMT -6
B! You're back! PM me please
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Post by watchman35 on Aug 23, 2019 6:22:20 GMT -6
Beloved. Thanks for taking time to respond. I really appreciate it. Honestly, I don't have the time or patience any more to address folks who choose to reject the rapture happening before Daniel's 70th week. As I said in my original post, if someone does not want to believe in the pre-trib rapture, so be it. I know it is not a Salvation issue in and of itself, but sometimes it is accompanied by other things that make one wonder. I have no desire to argue or try to persuade people to believe something they have dug in their heels on and don't want to consider. Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for your time in defending the position of what I believe is truth supported by scripture for those who have eyes to see. Hopefully it has encouraged others. Grace and peace. I'm out.
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Post by watchman35 on Aug 23, 2019 6:22:55 GMT -6
Beloved. Thanks for taking time to respond. I really appreciate it. Honestly, I don't have the time or patience any more to address folks who choose to reject the rapture happening before Daniel's 70th week. As I said in my original post, if someone does not want to believe in the pre-trib rapture, so be it. I know it is not a Salvation issue in and of itself, but sometimes it is accompanied by other things that make one wonder. I have no desire to argue or try to persuade people to believe something they have dug in their heels on and don't want to consider. Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for your time in defending the position of what I believe is truth supported by scripture for those who have eyes to see. Hopefully it has encouraged others. Grace and peace. I'm out.
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Post by venge on Aug 23, 2019 8:50:32 GMT -6
Beloved. Thanks for taking time to respond. I really appreciate it. Honestly, I don't have the time or patience any more to address folks who choose to reject the rapture happening before Daniel's 70th week. As I said in my original post, if someone does not want to believe in the pre-trib rapture, so be it. I know it is not a Salvation issue in and of itself, but sometimes it is accompanied by other things that make one wonder. I have no desire to argue or try to persuade people to believe something they have dug in their heels on and don't want to consider. Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for your time in defending the position of what I believe is truth supported by scripture for those who have eyes to see. Hopefully it has encouraged others. Grace and peace. I'm out. Watchman, I’m not arguing with Beloved nor am I putting forth a different view. This is what he believes and I am asking questions that arise and make little sense to me because they appear to conflict with some scripture. In order for me to understand, and to accept, I need to be accurately shown. He’s trying to do that - being patient. But, I’m not easily sold as no one is when they look at something foreign to them. When it’s foreign, it’s met with skepticism. One must be able to show scripture that it can stand. If it cannot, it needs to be looked at. That is our giving proper diligence to the word. I respect you not wanting to comment on this, perhaps another time? I have many family members and brothers/sisters in God at my Church that follow a pre trib theory. But many of them cannot answer all questions and others, have very different replies to them then some here which are more in detail and depth. You don’t need to convince me who God is, what he has done and what he has planned for us. I’m already a believer 😀 But, there are some things, like our present discussion here, that I don’t find matching what I read. I hope you recognize that as a problem. For me and for others. This is why I wish more churches had a legitimate open bible study to discuss as we do here. But Sunday school or bible fellowship or whatever your local church calls it, seems to be a smaller version of Sunday morning service. I’d love to discuss and examine scripture with the people I sit next too /sigh Anyway, I appreciate you posting the topic. We are both here because we love our Lord, his word excites us and we want to share and grow. We do that by learning from each other. |
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Post by venge on Aug 24, 2019 14:26:56 GMT -6
Beloved 1) x 2) I understand everything you said regarding your thought on this in both replies. The issue is the verse. There is no interuption between verses. You are forcing verses to separate which does not resonate with the text. We cannot "force" the text to say something it doesnt. -Verse 8 talks about 4 living beasts with 24 elders. They have harps and vials (prayers of the saints). -Verse 9 says "they". It references the 2 parties in the preceding verse. The 4 living beasts and the 24 elders. It is both parties together that sing a new song. There is no part of the song sung to one part by the elders and another stanza by the 24 beasts. "They" sing the new song. That is all that is told and that they sing it together as a choir. We cannot be elders if they sing with angels as angels are not redeemed by Christ blood. EDIT: I should add, Noah entered the ark and was saved from the flood the same day the rains came down. If the elders are the Church, and we are seen in Revelation 4:4, then the rains already came down and the flood has happened the same day. But we do not see that because Christ has not even opened the first seal yet in Revelation 6:1; supposing that the first seal is wrath which I don't believe to be so. How can we be the elders be raptured before the flood and not on the same day? And how can we be in heaven before Christ is in heaven when he enters in Ch. 5:5 for he has not even opened anything YET? For John was shown things he describes in Revelation as of being past, present and future (Revelation 1:19) to him around 95AD. Most likely, witnessing Christ's ascension in Revelation 5:5-6, that the elders who were there before Christ comes in. 3) You are referring to Christians in your 70th week theory as "after". If pre trib is accurate, then yes, they would not be the Church. But, you have not demonstrated a 100% scriptual based pre trib theory yet. Thus, the placement of the rapture is left opened and one must acknowledge those believers at that time to be none other then "us" till the exact pin point for the rapture is determined. You suggest the rapture is before the seals, how do we articulate the 5th seal when the servants of God cry out to Jehovah and ask Him when he will have vengeance on them (the wicked of the earth)? If God was having wrath on the earth, those servants wouldnt ask him...when are you going to destroy those who destroy the earth because he would be already doing that. Yet, in Revelation 11:18, it says That happens a great distance after the seals and after the Trumpets are blown. You said you agree that we will face tribulation. But, you also said that we will not face the 70th week. Daniel 12 says at the time of trouble (Jacobs), that all those in the book will be changed. Matthew 24 and the Exodus account back that up to form a timetable proximity. In each case, it falls after the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord cannot be at or before the 1st seal because Joel 2:1-2 shows it is the 6th seal at the earliest possibility. And verse 10 The DotL mirrors the opening of 6th seal in mourning, darkness and the heavens being removed (melting). But, the DotL does not have to be the 6th seal. It only has to be at the 6th seal at the earliest or anytime afterwards, it cannot precede the 6th seal. This, making anything before the 6th seal not wrath. This information on top of the 5th seal martyrs that ask God for his wrath to come and the word wrath not being used till Rev 6:17. 4) The bema seat and rewards are both found in Revelation as well as other books. In fact, the bema seat and rewards show their chronological position when found. The rapture, being in an instant, in the blink of an eye - the "catching up", the judgment and reward all together are not in Ch. 4-5 but much later in Revelation. One would have to ask, Why is it here? 5) In Matthew 24:43-44 (which you quoted above), the Lord tells us twice in scripture when he comes. But the verse you spoke of applies to those in darkness. I am not in darkness, but in light. Those of the light and are awake, can know "when" He comes in the chronological sequence. You said, Not true. Christ gives us insight through his word because we diligently study and pray seeking wisdom. The ability to watch was not just literally watching, but keeping yourself clothed. Otherwise, when Christ comes and he finds you naked and ashamed..how will you respond? Watching was also perservering and having patience (of the saints). Joel 2:12 shows us that even when things are at its worse, Christ saves us. Even at the VERY end. And we are to preach the gospel till the very end to which we are raised at the last day (John 6:54, John 11:24). 6) We are adopted as a wild olive into the original tree and therefore we are part of Israel. Israel is not only the natural branch (which God casted out, but will return), but Israel is the true Israel; spiritual Israel. Not the physical nation we have today. I have to disgaree with you here. 7) The Lord comes down from heaven. That is an advent. We dont know wherehe comes down to neither does any commentator. Some believe between heaven and earth. Others the air, the clouds and even the ground. But, if the Lord comes in the air which is Satan's domain (Ephesians 2:2), Satan cannot be in control and must be sealed. For when the Lord comes in the air, he must have control over it amd reign; having all kingdoms under his command and not Satan. And that does not happen till the 7th Trumpet. 8) Ok, no problem. I am trying to understand. You believe the 4 horseman are God's wrath. There is no word in Ch. 6 describing wrath till verse 17 describing the fear of men at the opening of the 6th seal showing God's wrath is soon demonstrated by Joel 2. So how do we know beyond a reasonable doubt seals 1-5 are God's wrath? The horseman (seals 1-4) only demonstrate things that have happened on earth the last couple thousand years: war, famine, disease and peace. Nothing in seals 1-4 shows God's anger justifying doing X, Y and Z. There is no use of angels to pronounce judgment, there is no heavenly announcement like the trumpets/bowls have, and these seals go our throughout the whole world. Not against a particular kingdom or people wheeras Mysertu babylon is destroyed to avenge the blood of the saints. It is specific. God is not attacking the people of the world for the saints, he attacks Babylon. God tells the angels, during the 144k, to "hurt not" X, Y and Z TILL they are sealed. If he commands them not to hurt anything TILL, he hasnt done wrath yet. Matthew 24:3-8 contradicts seals 1-4 being wrath. Christ says to his followers to be careful that no one decieves you and he continues explaining the what will happen on earth; the same things seals 1-4 demonstrate. But notice verse 6: Those seals (1-4) are not the end, not the DotL. And he tells us not to be troubled when we see it.9)I agree the wedding is after the rapture. I agree the wedding is in the millenial kingdom. So you believe the 5 virgins are not raptured? How do we understand that they wait for Christ to come back to earth? Isnt that what we are doing today? And when the cry goes out, they are prepared and go and the door is shut. If they were prepared to go when Christ finally came, this can only happen at the rapture, otherwise they were not prepared and thrown into utter darkness because "I never knew you, depart from me ye who work iniquity". But Christ does know them, he knows his sheep, and they are raised and changed. And it can be only the rapture because verse 13 states: That same time we are told to "watch" for the son of man to come..is mirrored in Matthew 24:36-41 This also paralells the tares/wheat parable. In Matthew 13:36-42, the tares are gathered "first" before the wheat to be bundled and burned. The wheat are gathered into his barn. And God said this happens at the end of the world which we are raised at the last day. Now, if it is the end and the last day, how do you surmise we are raptured 7 years (time of the gentiles) before the gentiles reigns end if we are raised at the last day? It cannot be the last day if 2,520 days or 7 years still remain. EDIT: Matthew 24:13-14 say.
So my question is, if we are saved at the end, which is the same time the gospel is preached for a witness unto all nations...when does that happen? The only mention I can find in all of Revelation is Revelation 11:6
This regarding the 2 witnesses who preach the everlasting gospel for 42 months. And what I found interesting is that when they are finished with preaching the gospel, they are caught up to heaven into the clouds and all their accusers saw them. Now, I am not saying that this is the rapture, what I am saying is that it is the only thing I can find that backs up Matthew 24. That, and the fact that it is literally "the end" because the 42 months are over showing it to be the "end" and technically is "the last day" we are foretold to resurrect to reign with Christ which he begins to reign at the 7th Trumpet on the "first day" of the new millennial reign. Is there another way to look at this?
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Post by venge on Sept 9, 2019 6:27:11 GMT -6
BelovedI was hoping we can continue this conversation. I had not heard back from you.
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43
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Post by Beloved on Sept 10, 2019 10:40:03 GMT -6
venge, Sorry! My classes started and all of my time vanished away . I will get around to responding soon, however.
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43
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Post by Beloved on Sept 27, 2019 14:56:21 GMT -6
venge , Seventeen days is soon, right?  Anyway, here is my (long awaited) response: You made me think quite a bit on this one; you had some good points 2. Indeed, both parties together are singing a new song. Let me explain why I am interpreting it the way I am from the axioms themselves; the original Greek text. Here is the problem; the Greek says 'us' in the first part, in 22 out of 23 manuscripts that have this verse. If both parties sing both verses together and both are angels, then we have angels singing, "You were slain, and by your blood ransomed US for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation", which is absurd under our current assumptions. Now, the phrase "and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God" is correct. So, if both parties are singing the whole time, we have angels singing about how they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus (which is nonsensical) and then a sudden switch to people who have been made priests and who will reign. If both parties are angels, this passage is nonsensical. However, since every bit of God's word is perfectly logical, this cannot be. So, one or both of our underlying assumptions is wrong (both parties are angels and both parties sing the whole time). Now, the four living creatures are clearly angels; they are quite similar to the cherubim of Ezekiel, though they are not composite. This leaves the 24 elders to sing of being personally redeemed, for the living creatures cannot. Now, if this group is singing about being redeemed, they must be men. Furthermore, since they are crowned and are of number 24 (the number of the divisions of the priesthood), they seem to be a good candidate for the royal priesthood that shall rule on the earth sung of in the second part of the song. Seeing as we know this priesthood is the Church, the Elders must represent the Church. However, it wouldn't make much sense for them to sing in the third person concerning themselves. Therefore, we have the Elders singing verse 9, and the creatures singing verse 10. Since both groups together sing the song, then the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled ('and THEY sung a new song'). My interpretation, as I hope I have shown, is built on logical necessity; the Elders must sing the part in the first person about being redeemed for the living creatures (who are obviously angels) cannot, while the creatures must sing the third person part (for the Elders would not sing in third person about themselves). Both groups sing, so the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled. This leaves this interpretation as, as far as I can see, the only logical one that properly takes into account the Greek text. This shows that the Elders must be the Church, IMHO. If they were not, we would have angels singing about being redeemed, which is folly, as you yourself have said. 3. A very good question. I hope that, in my semi-formal proof above, I have shown that the Elders are the Church, which would make pre-trib 100% Scriptural. Those people who cry out to God are the believers after the Rapture, who will be martyred and persecuted in the 70th Week. Now, your next point is a very good point. The answer to the question of why they are crying out for vengeance is, IMHO (but I am not as certain as I am in other areas), because God is now simply manipulating world events. He is dishing out disaster in the form of war, famine, and death, but He isn't sending out direct supernatural judgement. In fact, some of these judgments won't even affect the rich and powerful (do not harm the oil and the wine; 3rd Seal). They are calling for God to directly judge and avenge their blood, which He does starting with the 6th Seal. So, God's judgement begins indirectly with Seals 1-4 (God manipulating world events) and then directly intervenes Seal 6-Bowl 7, fulfilling the call of the martyrs. (This argument is quite a bit weaker then the one above, but if the one above is correct, then this minor quibble is moot). Revelation 11:17-18 is, in the Greek, in a rough equivalence with an English past tense: "you have taken the great power of you, and have begun to reign... and came the wrath of you and the time...to destroy those who are destroying the earth" (Greek interlinear, with doubling checking the tenses). These verses are describing a time that began in the past, not at the seventh trumpet. The time came, the Day of the LORD, the time to judge the dead, to reward the servants, and to destroy the evil. Let us break down Daniel 12:1-2. Daniel 12:1 says, "and at that time that your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book". This shows that all of those of Israel found written in the book will be delivered. It then says that many dead now will rise, but this does not draw congruence between being delivered and resurrection/glorification. It simply states that those of national Israel who are found written in the book (i.e. saved) will be delivered, and after that many will rise from the dead (Rev. 20:4). Joel 2:1-2 show that the Day will, at some point, be characterized by gloom and darkness. If the entire day was characterized as such, the fourth trumpet (which strikes a third of the sun) would be rendered moot (save for the speeding up of Earth's rotation). In Joel 2:10, it is describing events at the coming of the Son of Man, not the 6th Seal. The moon becomes blood red during the 6th Seal, not black (Rev. 6:12-13). The only time the moon goes dark is at the Second Coming proper (Matthew 24:29). Ultimately, I do think God pours out some of His wrath indirectly in Seals 1-4. However, even if I am wrong, the 24 Elders still stand, supporting a pre-trib Rapture. 4. I do not see the Bema seat or rewarding of the Church anywhere in Revelation, save references to the prior event. Show me where you see that . 5. Two cases Jesus states, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36 ESV). It does not matter if one is in the light or in darkness: you do not know. I see no Scriptural support for the idea that those who are saved can know; Jesus flat out states, "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." Note that Jesus says 'your Lord'; he is speaking to saved people, who are in the light. They have no clue. Now, don't think I didn't read fully your response; I saw your clarification on that one could know the place in the chronological order . The problem is, this runs afoul of Acts 1:7: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority", speaking of the Kingdom's coming. Now, you might say, "You pre-tribbers say that the season is now!" Well, we don't know that; God could have chosen the Rapture for 2,000 more years in the future. We think it is soon, but we don't know. A non pre-trib theory lets Christians know for certain: after this event, this is the Season. This runs afoul of the aforementioned verse, because then we know the times and seasons fixed by God's authority. Now, when they happen, we will know, but we won't know beforehand. 6. I cited Eph. 2:14-16, but now I want to dig a little deeper. Here is Eph. 2:11-16, "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility". God has made one New Man out of the Jews and the Gentiles, the Body of Christ. Thus, we are in no sense Israel; we are the New Man, made of both but being neither. This is the great mystery; "the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise". We and remnant Israel are linked by our sharing in the promise of Abraham, but we are not Israel. 7. Not necessarily. This world is ruled by the Satan, but Jesus walked around just fine two millennia ago. As the Ultimate Sovereign and Creator of the Universe, Jesus can go wherever He pleases whether Satan rules there or not, as shown by His First Advent. Thus, Jesus could come for us in the atmosphere before the casting down of the Satan's kingdom. 8. Again, it isn't direct, supernatural judgement against the Earth. God is simply manipulating geopolitical events to begin His judgement on the Earth, the same thing He has been doing since ancient times. The Assyrian invasion of Israel was no supernatural thing, yet it was most definitely an expression of God's wrath. It is the same with the Four Seals. Fine, it isn't grand supernatural displays of wrath, but it is wrath nonetheless, announced by angels (the four living creatures). Whatever Mystery Babylon is (capital of world empire, actual Babylon, entire world empire, etc.), the blood it sheds is paid back to it, but the paying back of the blood doesn't give justice to all the saints. In another place He says, "For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed" (Zeph. 3:8). God is executing judgement on the whole world for their sin and for the saints. The angels are not to 'harm the earth or the sea or the trees' until the sealing. The next set of supernatural judgement (and perhaps the power of the four angels themselves) will be withheld until the sealing is complete, but this doesn't mean that God has not executed wrath. He has, for the Sixth Seal has been opened. Indeed, the proper end of the age is not yet. That occurs at His coming. The first four seals should not cause alarm; they most likely aren't even in the Tribulation proper. Joel 2:31 seems to say that the Day begins after the Sixth Seal, so the End is not yet. (The Four seals have to happen after the Rapture, but not necessarily during the Tribulation proper). 9. You have me . This is a parable about the Rapture, I now see. Thank you! Note this: the foolish virgins have no oil. Oil is a common metaphor for the Holy Spirit, and thus this shows they were never saved at all. This is a parable describing the Church Age; the wise accepted Christ, and go with the Bridegroom. The foolish never did, and thus cannot go. Ah, now here you start to mix things up a bit. Matthew 24:36-41 describes the believers being caught up, and then the others being left to face the 70th Week. As for Matthew 13:36-42, when is the Harvest? We agree, at the end of the 70th Week, (Rev. 14:14-20). However, the good being harvested is the Jews/Tribulation Saints, while the bad being crushed/burned are the unbelieving population, for this is what happens at the end of the Week (Isaiah 27:13). The Gospel is preached to the whole world by an angel in Revelation, which fulfills Jesus's prophecy: "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6-7). This gives the whole world one last chance before the end of the Week. The witnesses simply speak for God (prophesize); while I'm sure they will proclaim the Gospel, they obviously don't do that to the whole world, for then the angel would not have to proclaim it. The trumpet in Matthew 24 is the one that gathers the Jews/Trib Saints to Jesus at the end of the Week.
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). Thus, the angels never sing anything about being redeemed; they sing about the redeemed elders in verse 10, and the elders sing about themselves being redeemed in verse 9. For more information, check out my previous post under #2, and the first article I linked.
Anyway, here is my (long awaited) response: