Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43 
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Post by Beloved on Oct 1, 2019 13:49:52 GMT -6
venge , Seventeen days is soon, right?   Anyway, here is my (long awaited) response: You made me think quite a bit on this one; you had some good points 2. Indeed, both parties together are singing a new song. Let me explain why I am interpreting it the way I am from the axioms themselves; the original Greek text. Here is the problem; the Greek says 'us' in the first part, in 22 out of 23 manuscripts that have this verse. If both parties sing both verses together and both are angels, then we have angels singing, "You were slain, and by your blood ransomed US for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation", which is absurd under our current assumptions. Now, the phrase "and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God" is correct. So, if both parties are singing the whole time, we have angels singing about how they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus (which is nonsensical) and then a sudden switch to people who have been made priests and who will reign. If both parties are angels, this passage is nonsensical. However, since every bit of God's word is perfectly logical, this cannot be. So, one or both of our underlying assumptions is wrong (both parties are angels and both parties sing the whole time). Now, the four living creatures are clearly angels; they are quite similar to the cherubim of Ezekiel, though they are not composite. This leaves the 24 elders to sing of being personally redeemed, for the living creatures cannot. Now, if this group is singing about being redeemed, they must be men. Furthermore, since they are crowned and are of number 24 (the number of the divisions of the priesthood), they seem to be a good candidate for the royal priesthood that shall rule on the earth sung of in the second part of the song. Seeing as we know this priesthood is the Church, the Elders must represent the Church. However, it wouldn't make much sense for them to sing in the third person concerning themselves. Therefore, we have the Elders singing verse 9, and the creatures singing verse 10. Since both groups together sing the song, then the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled ('and THEY sung a new song'). My interpretation, as I hope I have shown, is built on logical necessity; the Elders must sing the part in the first person about being redeemed for the living creatures (who are obviously angels) cannot, while the creatures must sing the third person part (for the Elders would not sing in third person about themselves). Both groups sing, so the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled. This leaves this interpretation as, as far as I can see, the only logical one that properly takes into account the Greek text. This shows that the Elders must be the Church, IMHO. If they were not, we would have angels singing about being redeemed, which is folly, as you yourself have said. 3. A very good question. I hope that, in my semi-formal proof above, I have shown that the Elders are the Church, which would make pre-trib 100% Scriptural. Those people who cry out to God are the believers after the Rapture, who will be martyred and persecuted in the 70th Week. Now, your next point is a very good point. The answer to the question of why they are crying out for vengeance is, IMHO (but I am not as certain as I am in other areas), because God is now simply manipulating world events. He is dishing out disaster in the form of war, famine, and death, but He isn't sending out direct supernatural judgement. In fact, some of these judgments won't even affect the rich and powerful (do not harm the oil and the wine; 3rd Seal). They are calling for God to directly judge and avenge their blood, which He does starting with the 6th Seal. So, God's judgement begins indirectly with Seals 1-4 (God manipulating world events) and then directly intervenes Seal 6-Bowl 7, fulfilling the call of the martyrs. (This argument is quite a bit weaker then the one above, but if the one above is correct, then this minor quibble is moot). Revelation 11:17-18 is, in the Greek, in a rough equivalence with an English past tense: "you have taken the great power of you, and have begun to reign... and came the wrath of you and the time...to destroy those who are destroying the earth" (Greek interlinear, with doubling checking the tenses). These verses are describing a time that began in the past, not at the seventh trumpet. The time came, the Day of the LORD, the time to judge the dead, to reward the servants, and to destroy the evil. Let us break down Daniel 12:1-2. Daniel 12:1 says, "and at that time that your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book". This shows that all of those of Israel found written in the book will be delivered. It then says that many dead now will rise, but this does not draw congruence between being delivered and resurrection/glorification. It simply states that those of national Israel who are found written in the book (i.e. saved) will be delivered, and after that many will rise from the dead (Rev. 20:4). Joel 2:1-2 show that the Day will, at some point, be characterized by gloom and darkness. If the entire day was characterized as such, the fourth trumpet (which strikes a third of the sun) would be rendered moot (save for the speeding up of Earth's rotation). In Joel 2:10, it is describing events at the coming of the Son of Man, not the 6th Seal. The moon becomes blood red during the 6th Seal, not black (Rev. 6:12-13). The only time the moon goes dark is at the Second Coming proper (Matthew 24:29). Ultimately, I do think God pours out some of His wrath indirectly in Seals 1-4. However, even if I am wrong, the 24 Elders still stand, supporting a pre-trib Rapture. 4. I do not see the Bema seat or rewarding of the Church anywhere in Revelation, save references to the prior event. Show me where you see that . 5. Two cases Jesus states, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36 ESV). It does not matter if one is in the light or in darkness: you do not know. I see no Scriptural support for the idea that those who are saved can know; Jesus flat out states, "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." Note that Jesus says 'your Lord'; he is speaking to saved people, who are in the light. They have no clue. Now, don't think I didn't read fully your response; I saw your clarification on that one could know the place in the chronological order  . The problem is, this runs afoul of Acts 1:7: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority", speaking of the Kingdom's coming. Now, you might say, "You pre-tribbers say that the season is now!" Well, we don't know that; God could have chosen the Rapture for 2,000 more years in the future. We think it is soon, but we don't know. A non pre-trib theory lets Christians know for certain: after this event, this is the Season. This runs afoul of the aforementioned verse, because then we know the times and seasons fixed by God's authority. Now, when they happen, we will know, but we won't know beforehand. 6. I cited Eph. 2:14-16, but now I want to dig a little deeper. Here is Eph. 2:11-16, "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility". God has made one New Man out of the Jews and the Gentiles, the Body of Christ. Thus, we are in no sense Israel; we are the New Man, made of both but being neither. This is the great mystery; "the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise". We and remnant Israel are linked by our sharing in the promise of Abraham, but we are not Israel. 7. Not necessarily. This world is ruled by the Satan, but Jesus walked around just fine two millennia ago. As the Ultimate Sovereign and Creator of the Universe, Jesus can go wherever He pleases whether Satan rules there or not, as shown by His First Advent. Thus, Jesus could come for us in the atmosphere before the casting down of the Satan's kingdom. 8. Again, it isn't direct, supernatural judgement against the Earth. God is simply manipulating geopolitical events to begin His judgement on the Earth, the same thing He has been doing since ancient times. The Assyrian invasion of Israel was no supernatural thing, yet it was most definitely an expression of God's wrath. It is the same with the Four Seals. Fine, it isn't grand supernatural displays of wrath, but it is wrath nonetheless, announced by angels (the four living creatures). Whatever Mystery Babylon is (capital of world empire, actual Babylon, entire world empire, etc.), the blood it sheds is paid back to it, but the paying back of the blood doesn't give justice to all the saints. In another place He says, "For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed" (Zeph. 3:8). God is executing judgement on the whole world for their sin and for the saints. The angels are not to 'harm the earth or the sea or the trees' until the sealing. The next set of supernatural judgement (and perhaps the power of the four angels themselves) will be withheld until the sealing is complete, but this doesn't mean that God has not executed wrath. He has, for the Sixth Seal has been opened. Indeed, the proper end of the age is not yet. That occurs at His coming. The first four seals should not cause alarm; they most likely aren't even in the Tribulation proper. Joel 2:31 seems to say that the Day begins after the Sixth Seal, so the End is not yet. (The Four seals have to happen after the Rapture, but not necessarily during the Tribulation proper). 9. You have me . This is a parable about the Rapture, I now see. Thank you! Note this: the foolish virgins have no oil. Oil is a common metaphor for the Holy Spirit, and thus this shows they were never saved at all. This is a parable describing the Church Age; the wise accepted Christ, and go with the Bridegroom. The foolish never did, and thus cannot go. Ah, now here you start to mix things up a bit. Matthew 24:36-41 describes the believers being caught up, and then the others being left to face the 70th Week. As for Matthew 13:36-42, when is the Harvest? We agree, at the end of the 70th Week, (Rev. 14:14-20). However, the good being harvested is the Jews/Tribulation Saints, while the bad being crushed/burned are the unbelieving population, for this is what happens at the end of the Week (Isaiah 27:13). The Gospel is preached to the whole world by an angel in Revelation, which fulfills Jesus's prophecy: "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6-7). This gives the whole world one last chance before the end of the Week. The witnesses simply speak for God (prophesize); while I'm sure they will proclaim the Gospel, they obviously don't do that to the whole world, for then the angel would not have to proclaim it. The trumpet in Matthew 24 is the one that gathers the Jews/Trib Saints to Jesus at the end of the Week. Welcome back. Hope all is well!! I had to find time to reply, I have been busy at home lately. 2. You had said: I think the issue is this, you are trying to understand the text from your point of view rather then just understanding the text. You try to justify the elders being the church then to say we have 2 groups signing a song. How do we interpret what they are saying, not who they are. You are interpreting who they are and then "guestimating how the song might appear." I think it prudent that at this momment, we ignore who they may be and focus on what we know they are. We don't know who the elders are. But we do know the 4 living beasts are angels. We also know both groups sing the same song together. If they both sang the song together, we don't know how they sung it. We don't know if the song separated stanzas like a song could with a female and male choir each doing their own part yet the song still implies the same thing. Bu the fact remains that the song was sung by both parties and angels cannot be redeemed. Verse 9 does not say or allude to the elders singing "thou has redeemed us". We can only understand what was given to us as both groups sing it. So the fact remains that we can try to justify what might make sense and conclude saying "we agree, the angels are not redeemed so it must have been just the elders" but doing so disagrees with the verse and is bringing our own inclinations into the scripture. So how do we understand it? By the facts of scripture interpreting scripture without trying to justify preconceived notions or who the elders are and not adding to the text what we think it may be. So lets look at the facts: 1. The 4 living beasts are angels and cannot be redeemed and cannot rule as priests. 2. The 4 living beast sing with the elders the same song. Both present a problem. So what does scripture say that can help? In Luke 8:4-15, we have the prabale of the sower. We understand a few things from it. 1. The sower is the believer. 2. The believer sows seed and the seed is the word of God 3. The seed is sown by some, and watered by others 3. The good seed is those that believe and they take forth root and grow and bring forth fruit to perfection 4. The bad seed is sown by Satan (called tares/weeds) 5. Both seeds (believers and non believers/hearers with no root/hearers who care for the world more) In Matthew 13:24-30, the parable is explained more because there are questions. If we as believers were hearers of the word and now we sow seed. And another believer comes along and waters the same seed that it may grow...who then reaps the seed? In Matthew 13:39, Christ says the reapers are angels. Now follow with me, If Christ is removing all workers of iniquity, he is doing it out of "his kingdom". That is because he is reigning and he does not reign till the 7th Trumpet blows. Yet in verse 30 it reads: So we are not reaped till the harvest. And we know from revelation, that does not happen till after the 144k appear and after Babylon is destroyed per Rev 14. And in Rev 19, we see the same description. Babylon is destroyed, Christ reigns and we are received. So what does this have to do with the song sung? The song has to do with when we reign. The 24 elders and 4 living beasts are singong a song based upon our inheritance. The inheritance doesnt happen till after the 144k and after Babylon is destroyed. So how would we be in heaven as elders, as that is a guess, if none of those things happened yet? We can only use scripture to tell us things, you and I cannot try to guess at what we think and work around it. We can only work with the facts and there are no facts that say elders are anything but elders at this moment. 3. Ok, I hope I am not beating a dead horse. Let me phrase it this way: Believers ask God: When will you [GOD] have vengeance on the wicked of the earth who killed us and judge them? God answers them in Rev 8:3-4 God has just sealed the 144k to prevent them from being displaced by the trumpets. That was the "hurt not...till we seal.." Now that they have been sealed, the prayers will be answered and these things will be hurt. The trumpets act as God's judgement to avenge the payers of the saints. Now let me go back to what you said: The object is not the color of the moon or sun. The object is what they mean. Both cases represent mourning. It demonstrates loss of spiritual light on earth and increase of darkness. In regards to Matthew 24, I disagree with your statement. I will post it below. Verse 29 demonstrates the 6th seal. And verse 30 does show the 2nd coming. But they do not go hand in hand. What the 2 verse show is the sun/moon must be darkened before the 2nd coming. That is why once this event happens, verse 30 responds "and then.." It does not mean directly after because we dont know how long from the 6th seal to the second coming comes whether by hours, days, weeks or months after this event. But we do know that the 2nd coming comes sometime after the event which is exactly how the verses read. Joel 3:12-14 shows the DotL comes "near" the harvest. And Zephaniah 1:7 shows the DotL is "at hand" at the wedding sacrifice that he bids his guests. Both of these are at the end of the 42 months when Christ reigns. Not when there are still 7 years left. As I said previously, we are resurrected at the last day. 4. 5. I dont know the time of the season and I dont know the day or the hour. But I do know what to look for. That still does not tell me the year, the day, the month and the hour. But the Bible does tell me the "when" and the "how" based upon when I see certain things happen and how they happen. And knowing this, I still dont know the time itll happen. But when it does happen, if I am on earth, I will know I am in it because I am of the light and are awake. 6. Yes, we both share in the promise of Abraham. This is correct. But what does Romans 9:6 say For the seed of Isaac is by faith, not by blood and therefore we are of Israel. For the Jews (the natural branch) which are of Israel by blood and lack faith are not true Israel. But true Israel is the seed by faith whether Jew or Gentile. And our grafting together with true Israel in our adoption; This is why we cry Abba, Father. Part of the inheritance, part of Israel as adopted children and sons of God. We are Israel and we are Jews. 7. Of course Christ can come and go as it pleases God. I was not talking about his ability to move about, but rather to spoil Satan's domain. If we reign with Christ for 1 k years, that means we must be resurrected at the time he reigns. It is the same time Satan is in the pit for 1k years. If Christ reigns at the 7th trumpet, it seems plausible to understand that Satan is bound the same time and not before hand. If Satan is on the earth before the 7th Trumpet not bound, he is free to sow his seed as Christ does as well meaning the harvest hasnt happened before the 7th trumpet. 8. I am confused by your statement, I tried reading it but I am not following you. 9. My friend, I dont "have you." I am not trying to win anything. If you see something as me, it is only the HS working. I am here to edify, learn and explain. I believe God has shown me something unique and if others can see it, give God glory. You stated: Believers are tabernacled and the wicked face wrath. Let us leave out 70th week and 7 years. We are placed into safety and the wicked are not. Remember the verse about the bema and rewards? Now look at the rest. If we are just judged and rewarded..we are saved and changed. But right after this, it is time to destroy those that destroy the earth. That backs up Matthew 24:36-41 As for the harvest, I explained that in point 2 above. You need to let go of "for this is what happens at the end of the week" comments. Let us focus on what the scripture says without any presumptions clearing the way for just scripture. Some believe 70th week still applies, some dont. Some 3.5 years, some 7 years...etc Again look at the facts. We are sowers. We sow seed. The seed matures and is harvested at the end of the age by angels and Christ. Christ reaps the wheat into his barn and the weeds are to burned. Those are all facts. When are believers who were sowing harvested into his barn? Rev 14 says after the 144k and after Babylon is destroyed. Rev 19 makes it even clearer imo. Thank you! Things have finally become a bit less hectic; I'm glad I have some time to discuss . Thanks for going through this with me; I gain better understanding of this stuff talking through it thoroughly with others. 2. We do agree on these axioms of the passage (you stated them, but let me put them down again): a. The elders and creatures sing the song together b. The creatures are angels, and thus cannot be redeemed But see, one cannot make assumptions on the first axiom. We know that the two groups sing the song together, but we do not know if both groups sing every part, as you stated. Now, let us consider your succeeding analysis (beginning at the parable of the sower) true, meaning we go up at the end of the Tribulation. Now, I see what you have done: we use analysis from outside the passage to show the meaning of the passage. However, one must be careful to show that the conclusion of said analysis does not cause an irreconcilable contradiction in the original text. I won't touch your analysis of the sower and such here; I will consider your final conclusion true, and see if it causes a contradiction (in case you can't tell, proof by contradiction is my favorite way to try and prove everything, both in mathematics and in the Bible ). You said, "The 24 elders and 4 living beasts are singing a song based upon our inheritance.", as the conclusion of your analysis. But this leads to a contradiction: the song states, "by your blood you ransomed us for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation". This song is a song of praise, as the elders (for it could not be the creatures; they are most certainly not redeemed, by axiom b) sing about their personal redemption, not about another group's inheritance. This is the problem I have; how do you reconcile this? I would also like to point this out: the elders sing about their redemption by blood, being taken out of all the Gentiles, and are 24 in number (the number of the priesthood). If the song is to be consistent in subject, verse 10 speaks of them as well, and thus they are kings and priests assuredly. A group of Gentiles that are redeemed by blood AND that are kings and priests. What else could they be but the Church? 3. You aren't . I do not see anything wrong with your analysis of the fifth seal, imho. A slight digression; I will continue the discussion of your response in the next paragraph. Allegorical interpretation should be avoided for the main interpretation of Scripture at all costs. Why? Because God, like any person trying to explain things, says what He means and means what He says. If not, we could interpret Scripture to say anything we want and then we end up with things like Purgatory and theistic evolution. One cannot perform rigorous analysis on a passage if it is interpreted allegorically, because again, you can make it say whatever you want. Eventually, one cannot say if another is right or wrong, because that's up to interpretation, and the authority of Scripture becomes meaningless. I only use it as a second order correction to Scripture; a slight thing that makes your understanding deeper and more rich, but firmly bound by the framework of literal interpretation. Now, back to the discussion. There are two astronomical events involving the Sun and Moon. One is the darkening of the Sun and the reddening of the Moon, described in the Sixth Seal and in Joel 2:31. The second is the darkening of both the Sun, Moon, and stars, occurring at the Second Coming (Matthew 24:29) and spoken of in Joel 2:10 and Isaiah 13:9-11, for example. Different astronomical events, distinguished by the state of the Moon. We cannot just fuse them together; God would not have distinguished them otherwise. The first event is a signpost: you have arrived at the Wrath of God, enjoy your stay. The second event is right before the Second Coming, announcing the Coming of the Son of Man. They serve different purposes. I agree; the Second Coming comes after the Sixth Seal. After reading a bit more, I now believe that most references to the DotL is referring literally to a Day; the Day of the Second Coming. The 70th Week, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, overlaps but is not the same. It's the only thing that makes sense, considering the whole OT. Now, some references are to the 70th Week (Jeremiah 30:7-8, for example), but most refer to the Second Coming. Thus, we are in complete agreement: the proper Day of the Second Coming happens in sync with the harvest of Joel 3. I do not think Zephaniah 1 is referring to the wedding sacrifice, but is rather referring to the wicked themselves; they are the sacrifice for their sins, and they pay with their lives. This interpretation is consistent with other passages of Scripture (Isaiah 34:6 and Jeremiah 46:10), where this is so. 4. Thank you! Yes, this is referring in part to the Bema, but in the past tense; it happened before the Seventh Trumpet (I think I did analysis on the Greek to show it was in past tense in a previous post; I'll go drudge it up). 5. Ah, but see, when the Abomination of Desolation occurs, you know it is 1,260 days and the Lord returns. You would then know the day and hour, a contradiction. 6. Eh, we are spiritually Abraham's children, and we are spiritually part of Israel, so I guess you could say that. So, I agree, as long as you agree that national Israel will be saved as well in the 70th Week. Then we shall be in agreement. 7. We are to reign one thousand years with Christ, yes. Why would that mean we must be resurrected at the end of the Week? Nowhere in Scripture does it say immediately after resurrection we begin our reign. Satan is specifically bound right after Christ returns. He comes back, and then the angel throws Satan bound into the abyss (Revelation 19-20). The parable of the harvest needs none of our interpretation: the Lord Himself provided the interpretation. "And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:37-41 NASB). This parable describes the end of the age: while now the wicked and righteous live together, the wicked shall be taken out and burned away, but the righteous shall shine and live evermore. This is the point of the parable. It is not designed to teach anything on the Church or on our harvesting, but merely on the fate of the wicked at the end. I'll touch on this a bit more below. 8. So, while we have free will, God also controls and influences events. For example, he raised up Nebuchadnezzar to punish the Jews two and a half millennia ago. This was most definitely God's wrath, even though it was indirect. The first four seals act as such. God is executing judgement on the world indirectly, not through grand supernatural acts. That's the gist. 9. Ah, I know . I was just saying that you found a hole in my reasoning, and I am grateful that you did. I am not adding any presumptions to the text; the harvest happens at the end of the week. It is not necessarily our harvest, and it occurs at the 70th week. I am trying to synthesize the whole of Scripture into one unified whole, as it is, and this is where my presumptions come from: Scripture. The Church is not in the parable of the tares. As spoken on above, it talks about any believers left at the end. In fact, note: the Rapture takes away the believers, and leaves the wicked (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), while at the Second Coming, the wicked are taken away and the righteous remain (Matthew 13:24-30). Again, two separate events. In the Second Comings, angels are the harvesters, who go out and take the wicked to destruction, and take the righteous to Jesus now on earth. In the Rapture, Jesus Himself takes His Church, and takes them to Him in the clouds. They are separate events. The parable of the tares doesn't touch on anything with the Church. Thanks for taking the time to read! |
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43
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Post by Beloved on Oct 1, 2019 13:54:36 GMT -6
boraddict Here is a link to the excerpt LDS teaching that Adam was Michael (pre-incarnate): www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/10/adam-the-archangel?lang=engvenge While bora is in the hot seat (as it were) regarding interpretation of men and angels, I want to make sure I am understanding your point about angels and redemption. Does the below sound like what you are saying: Grammatically, the word "they" in Revelation 5:8-11 (of the quoted text you used) could just as easily refer to only the elders, and not the four living creatures or the angels who stood around the throne, because grammatically, the 'they' is plural and the passage does not indicate which group or groups it is referring to. Since it is well established in Biblical research (and most doctrines confirm this) that angels cannot be redeemed, this passage and the word 'they' could logically be understood to only refer to the elders - in the context of the translated passage you have been citing. Other scenes which include the 24 elders doing the falling down and worshipping include of 5:14, 7:11, 11:16 and 19:4. Of these, 5:14, 11:16 do not show the living creatures falling down and worshipping; and 7:11 and 19:4 do show them, in addition to the elders. 5:14 only shows the living creatures saying "amen" 7:11 shows all of them saying whats in verse 12 11:16 only has the elders saying whats in vs 17-18; and 19:4 has the living creatures and elders saying "amen, hallelujah" FWIW and notwithstanding the above, the passage of 5:8-14 clearly indicates WHO was redeemed halfway through verse 9 using the NIV: None of the bolded font above, describing what groups had people purchased out of them, include groups of angels. Always in the Bible when a phrase such as the bolded one above is used, it refers to human beings. Therefore, it can logically follow, given the NIV translation that even if the four living creatures and angels were also singing the song, they were not referring to themselves (or any other angels) as being redeemed. Does the above sound like an accurate analysis of what you have been saying? Eh, note that the translation is wrong. I went over this in some detail (and Greg Lauer over at A Little Strength went over it in excruciating detail) in this thread, but basically the evidence supports a first person plural pronoun in verse 10 (22/23 manuscripts have that, 1 doesn't have any pronoun there), and a third person pronoun in verse 10 (every manuscript but Textus Receptus). It should read something like "'You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased us for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.'" Hence the idea for the antiphonal arrangement that I spoke of before. |
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Post by venge on Oct 2, 2019 14:28:13 GMT -6
Beloved 1. x 2. The song is a song of praise. You are correct, what better song to praise God then to say Christ, our redeemer, has conquered death and he will bring us to him. But the song also is "based upon our inheritance". For God promised Abraham's seed of a country that is of God to which we are with him in all things. And this inheritance is praised in this song when they "the 2 groups" sing: with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. 10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.You are implying the elders "sing about their personal redemption" as you stated. But neither of us, nor anyone else at this point in time know who or what the elders are. Any attempt to say otherwise is using ones own inclinations. We can guess all day long, but no one knows. What we do know is the 4 living beasts are Cherubims. We don't know how the song is sung either so any attempt to try to break it apart is also ones inclination and needs to be stricken. Could they be us? Possibly. Could they be someone else? Possibly. Could they represent something? Possibly. Could they have been there since the law was given? Possibly. Can we say without a doubt, that they are 100% scripturally the risen church? We cannot. I cannot, neither could Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary in his Pre TB books he authored. Scripture must be factual and backed up. If it cannot be proved against, it cannot be used as "the answer" till it can be proved. The elders cannot be proved. And should not be used until someone can do so. 3. You are correct. Allegorical interpretations should be avoided over a literal one. But, if the meaning is already given to us, one should determine if the language used in the written text is such that it is "fanciful" to see if it is allegorical. To which, most of Revelation is, that I have found, in O.T. books given to us by the divine. You see an astrological event. I see imagery. Great Mourning, the proud being humbled, the light of God being darkened by mankind's wickedness all preparing us for the destruction of Babylon. The color of the moon doesn't change what the event means. But you are looking for color, I am understand what the color means. You look for meteors to fall to the ground yet you don't know its meteors, many guess for how can many stars fall...so people guess. Yet stars have fallen, in the past, from heaven to earth and God has told us the meaning. I don't know if the DotL is a literal 24 hours or more. I tend to lean on more because previous times that they called the DotL, the wars lasted longer then 1 day. But I don't know, I can only say its an unbiblical opinion. I suppose we can study every DotL in scripture and look at history to figure out a pattern of events and develop a time line. So, you accept the DotL is the 2nd coming. Also accept that it happens after the 6th seal and in sync with the harvest. But you still split the 2nd coming and his in the air coming as 2 separate events. How do you rectify 2 Timothy 4:1? Christ will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom. And when does Christ claim his kingdom and reign? The same thing I have been saying, at the 7th Trumpet when he reigns and the verse I gave you in Ch. 11 that he judges them. That is his appearing, that is his judging and rewarding and it is his only coming. And Paul said in verse 8: So our crown, our reward is given at his appearing. And per verse 1 above, he appears when the kingdom is HIS; which is at the 7th Trumpet. Now, 1 Cor 3:10-14 shows more: Our reward is on a day that is revealed by fire. And our reward is on the day he appears to us. It is also on the day he begins to reign. This links the DotL with Christ appearing and his reward. Now previously, In another forum, I said we will see the man of sin. Some disagree. Let me paint the picture: The lord comes in the 2nd advent after the 6th seal. The man of sin will be revealed and the Lord at the 7th trumpet will judge us, reward us (immortality), give us the crown, on a day tried by fire or every man's work when he begins to reign and destroy the man of sin because once he reigns, he goes to pull out of his kingdom all workers of iniquity. Now let me repost 2 Thess 2 below: Paul states: He is speaking of the 2nd advent (Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ) He is speaking of the rapture (our being gathered together to Him) Then he tells them that the DotL has not come yet (alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come) Then he says regarding us being raptured at Christ 2nd advent which is the DotL, that it wont come TILL 2 things happen first because they haven't happened YET in his time. (for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.) Paul testifies that the coming of Christ is after these 2 points. 4. Past Tense? I think I answered this above how it comes, when it comes and what scripture says. After the Trumpet is blown, Christ establishes his kingdom when he begins to reign. Then the angel says: "and the time of the dead, that they should be judged."
That quote from Rev 11 follows 2 Timothy 4:1 where I quoted above: 1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom
The paragraph states these things happen concurrently at the 7th Trumpet.
1. Christ reigns
2. His wrath will now come (to destroy those that destroy the earth in the form of bowls)
3. The dead to be judged (Bema)
4. Give reward to his servants (crown of life; immortality)
5. Who said an AoD must occur in the future? It is speculated, but I did not say it has to happen. With the AoD it is possible but I am not fully convinced yet. Which question is for the AoD?
The apostles asked: when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
If the AoD is part of the end of the world, what does it symbolize? Luke 21 states:
But what I find interesting, sense you brought up the AoD, is that Luke says:
And it appears as though all was fulfilled. Now, I am not a preterist...I think anyone here can agree to that. But I wonder, was the AoD (ONLY) part of 70AD? Because Luke continues with:
When was Israel surrounded by armies, destroyed and lead away into all nations? And when they were...has it been trodden down by Gentiles ever since? It is interesting because following this verse is (imo) the 6th seal.
Now, I do contend that it is possible. For Matthew says in verse 29 that after the tribulation happens, Christ appears. And it is that tribulation in verse 29, that he alludes to verse 21 which explains the AoD.
So, I dont see a contradiction in 42 months. For if the AoD comes and we see it, you are suggesting we count 42 months from there to arrive at a day or hour and that becomes a contradiction because Christ said no one knows the day or the hour. Christ is right, we dont know the day or the hour today. But if we see it happen before us, does that contradict knowing when God told us 42 months? He gave it to us, but never told us the day or the hour. So what is thought a contradiction is not if God told us how it will play out but still did not tell us the day or the hour. Now the Jews are in darkness but we are of the light. We have God's word to lead us to all things he has told us. So I thought about this some. Not knowing the day or hour or seasons but knowing signs, could that disagree with each other? I don’t see how it can. For the world goes on even with signs visible today and the world is blind. Do we count from these? Are the 42mo’s literal? I will give more thought on it because it deserves it. I wrote this part sloppy because of work and a time limit. I may correct some things later.
6. I agree physical Israel will be saved to be brought to Christ. I dont know if its a 70th week or a 42 mo. time period. I see possibilities for both. I have also seen contradictions in both.
7. You said:
Rev 20 states:
and
So if the 1st resurrection is our reign with Christ and we reign for 1k years with him. When he begins to reign for 1k years, we are reigning with him concurrently. So the question is, when does Christ begin to reign for 1k years so we can figure out when we begin to reign with him for the same time period for it does not say Christ reigns 1,001 years and we reign 1,000. No, we reign with him and if so, when he reigns we are reigning too.
Christ now begins to reign as the kingdoms of the earth are his. This is backed up because the text says so and once Christ begins to reign he can remove out of his kingdom all that work iniquity and burn them.
If its his kingdom, then he is reigning and we are reigning with him!
This is why at the same time he reigns, we are judged, we are rewarded and we reign concurrently with him at the 1st resurrection which coincides with the 7th Trumpet. And this all happens before the bowls. This is why Rev 11 states when he reigns:
Remember that Timothy verse? We see him at his appearing and his kingdom! That is this time. A little deductive logic.
8. You said:
I think Matthew 24 disagrees with this. I will post below.
One, Christ tells us when we see these things that model the 4 seals, its not the end. Secondly, Christ tells us not to be even troubled by them. If it was wrath or judgment from God...wouldn't we be afraid? But he says "don't be bothered" by them because they will continue to happen all over. Don't think this is the end and I am coming when you see this. I will tell you the end and this is how it goes...and he continues with what the end is. So how can the 4 seals be God executing judgment if God just said don't be troubled by them? And, that "we will see them".
Not only that, but in verse 14:
So these seals happen during the same time as the gospel being preached which is even today. And we are not worried by these things: War, Famine, Pestilence and Death because we are armed with Christ and it is not the end.
Now these back up Rev 1 where God says:
Not all things in Revelation are future. Agreed?
Now Matthew 24:13 says:
You may think this is Jews, but Christ spoke to believers. Those of the seed of faith. And he said to Christians that if they endure to the end, they will be saved. And the first 4 seals are "not the end (verse 6)" where we would be saved.
The warning shows persecution will continue from the time of witnessing till Christ returns. They did not go out witnessing unto all nations till Christ resurrected and was about to ascend. In Matthew 28:19 he said go and teach all nations.
Christ opened the seals, but I believe he did so once he ascended to heaven. John was looking at his past, back to around 30AD.
9.
Who is the wheat? Christ said gather the wheat into my barn in Matthew 13:30
If the wicked are to be gathered together to be burned, does not the text show the weeds are gathered first, the wheat is put into the barn to be saved and then the weeds are burned?
Christ said:
Is this not us? For I heard the word, I try to understand it and I work on sanctification. This is the wheat. Therefore, we are the wheat. And if so, we are gathered AFTER the weeds are bundled. Not 7 years before. Christ also says:
So we are the good seed called Wheat. The tares/weeds are the seed sown by the devil. If we don't go into his barn, who are we then if not wheat? So I am going back and forth but I'm trying to demonstrate, though badly, that scripture is specific this is us.
Now, let me go forward alittle. Matthew 13:39 says the reapers are the angels. Christ will send his angels to gather out of his kingdom (the 7th trumpet) all that work iniquity and cast them into a furnace of fire (the bowls). Christ also says this happens at the end of the age. It does not say angels reap us. It says they reap the wicked.
Now Rev 14:15 says Christ harvests us.
But the angels reap the tares/weeds
So do the angels also help God reap the wheat or does he do it alone? One reaps, another gathers. For Christ reaps the wheat, but the angels gather us.
Question: Who is the great multitude in Rev 19 here:
It happens after Babylon is destroyed but before the marriage supper. What event is a marriage of a great multitude to the groom? How about this as a link.
Now I am done lol
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Anyway, here is my (long awaited) response:
. The problem is, this runs afoul of Acts 1:7: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority", speaking of the Kingdom's coming. Now, you might say, "You pre-tribbers say that the season is now!" Well, we don't know that; God could have chosen the Rapture for 2,000 more years in the future. We think it is soon, but we don't know. A non pre-trib theory lets Christians know for certain: after this event, this is the Season. This runs afoul of the aforementioned verse, because then we know the times and seasons fixed by God's authority. Now, when they happen, we will know, but we won't know beforehand.
