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Post by boraddict on Sept 28, 2019 11:19:54 GMT -6
beloved,
I read your posting and see that you make some assumptions the foundation of which is that "men cannot be angels." First of all let me say that in scripture angels can metaphorically mean men, secondly, in my opinion angels can literally be men. The following are the excerpts from your post to which I refer:
2. a. "... Here is the problem; the Greek says 'us' in the first part, in 22 out of 23 manuscripts that have this verse. If both parties sing both verses together and both are angels, then we have angels singing, "You were slain, and by your blood ransomed US for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation", which is absurd under our current assumptions."
2. b. "Now, the phrase "and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God" is correct. So, if both parties are singing the whole time, we have angels singing about how they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus (which is nonsensical) and then a sudden switch to people who have been made priests and who will reign. If both parties are angels, this passage is nonsensical."
2. c. "However, since every bit of God's word is perfectly logical, this cannot be. So, one or both of our underlying assumptions is wrong (both parties are angels and both parties sing the whole time).
2. d. "Now, the four living creatures are clearly angels; they are quite similar to the cherubim of Ezekiel, though they are not composite...."
2. e. "My interpretation, as I hope I have shown, is built on logical necessity; the Elders must sing the part in the first person about being redeemed for the living creatures (who are obviously angels) cannot, while the creatures must sing the third person part (for the Elders would not sing in third person about themselves). Both groups sing, so the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled. This leaves this interpretation as, as far as I can see, the only logical one that properly takes into account the Greek text.
2. f. "This shows that the Elders must be the Church, IMHO. If they were not, we would have angels singing about being redeemed, which is folly, as you yourself have said.
"
In my understanding is that the four living creatures are in a role of authority and are identified in Ezekiel as such, but more than that, the four living creatures are four individuals. Secondly, the angels are men having been redeemed by the blood of Christ. Metaphorically speaking, they could have been called worms or fiery snakes both of which are in line with OT text. However, the idea that angels are some creation beyond our understanding adds an element of bewilderment to the understanding. Thus, angels is the perfect word in the context of the book. Nevertheless, angels are simply men with a specific assignment in most cases and never a being other than mankind. God created men in his image and there are other creations but only Christ between man and God; not some other creation like the mystical angels.
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Beloved
New Member
Waiting for our Blessed Hope
Posts: 43 
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Post by Beloved on Sept 28, 2019 12:49:29 GMT -6
boraddict , Dear sister, I am afraid we shall have to disagree. The author of Hebrews makes the distinction, when he says, "Are [the angels] not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 ESV), making a distinction between the ones who receive the inheritance, us, and the servants, the angels. God testifies that the angels were there during the time of Creation, when He says, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth...? On what were it's bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-6 ESV). But man did not exist when the Earth was first created, for we were made on the sixth day. Finally, of the angels, it is written, "He makes his messengers winds, His ministers a flaming fire" (Psalm 104:4), but of us it is written, "So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God" (Galatians 4:7). Are the heirs the servants? No, we are the children of God. All these things together show that the angels are quite different from us, made before us, and have a different purpose then us.
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Post by boraddict on Sept 29, 2019 1:31:41 GMT -6
boraddict , Dear sister, I am afraid we shall have to disagree. The author of Hebrews makes the distinction, when he says, "Are [the angels] not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 ESV), making a distinction between the ones who receive the inheritance, us, and the servants, the angels. God testifies that the angels were there during the time of Creation, when He says, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth...? On what were it's bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-6 ESV). But man did not exist when the Earth was first created, for we were made on the sixth day. Finally, of the angels, it is written, "He makes his messengers winds, His ministers a flaming fire" (Psalm 104:4), but of us it is written, "So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God" (Galatians 4:7). Are the heirs the servants? No, we are the children of God. All these things together show that the angels are quite different from us, made before us, and have a different purpose then us. That is an interesting doctrine. Nevertheless, in my opinion there is only God the Father and his children of which Christ was first. Some followed Lucifer in rebellion and some did not. Today upon the earth some follow Lucifer and some do not. Those who follow Christ may have ministering spirits that are their brothers and sisters whereas those who follow Lucifer may have their ravaging demons supporting them. In the first case those called to minister are called angels and in the second case those are called devils. The issue is weather you believe we began when we were born upon this earth or that we began prior to the creation of this earth. Since Christ began prior to his birth upon this earth then it is reasonable that we his brothers and sisters also began prior to our birth upon this earth. The angels are simply individuals with a specific calling but are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They are redeemed through the blood of Christ because they were sinners. Nevertheless, I do understand the doctrine that you believe. For me however there is only God and his children; some following the Christ, and some following the Devil. No one else. |
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Post by venge on Sept 29, 2019 13:19:53 GMT -6
venge , Seventeen days is soon, right?   Anyway, here is my (long awaited) response: You made me think quite a bit on this one; you had some good points 2. Indeed, both parties together are singing a new song. Let me explain why I am interpreting it the way I am from the axioms themselves; the original Greek text. Here is the problem; the Greek says 'us' in the first part, in 22 out of 23 manuscripts that have this verse. If both parties sing both verses together and both are angels, then we have angels singing, "You were slain, and by your blood ransomed US for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation", which is absurd under our current assumptions. Now, the phrase "and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God" is correct. So, if both parties are singing the whole time, we have angels singing about how they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus (which is nonsensical) and then a sudden switch to people who have been made priests and who will reign. If both parties are angels, this passage is nonsensical. However, since every bit of God's word is perfectly logical, this cannot be. So, one or both of our underlying assumptions is wrong (both parties are angels and both parties sing the whole time). Now, the four living creatures are clearly angels; they are quite similar to the cherubim of Ezekiel, though they are not composite. This leaves the 24 elders to sing of being personally redeemed, for the living creatures cannot. Now, if this group is singing about being redeemed, they must be men. Furthermore, since they are crowned and are of number 24 (the number of the divisions of the priesthood), they seem to be a good candidate for the royal priesthood that shall rule on the earth sung of in the second part of the song. Seeing as we know this priesthood is the Church, the Elders must represent the Church. However, it wouldn't make much sense for them to sing in the third person concerning themselves. Therefore, we have the Elders singing verse 9, and the creatures singing verse 10. Since both groups together sing the song, then the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled ('and THEY sung a new song'). My interpretation, as I hope I have shown, is built on logical necessity; the Elders must sing the part in the first person about being redeemed for the living creatures (who are obviously angels) cannot, while the creatures must sing the third person part (for the Elders would not sing in third person about themselves). Both groups sing, so the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled. This leaves this interpretation as, as far as I can see, the only logical one that properly takes into account the Greek text. This shows that the Elders must be the Church, IMHO. If they were not, we would have angels singing about being redeemed, which is folly, as you yourself have said. 3. A very good question. I hope that, in my semi-formal proof above, I have shown that the Elders are the Church, which would make pre-trib 100% Scriptural. Those people who cry out to God are the believers after the Rapture, who will be martyred and persecuted in the 70th Week. Now, your next point is a very good point. The answer to the question of why they are crying out for vengeance is, IMHO (but I am not as certain as I am in other areas), because God is now simply manipulating world events. He is dishing out disaster in the form of war, famine, and death, but He isn't sending out direct supernatural judgement. In fact, some of these judgments won't even affect the rich and powerful (do not harm the oil and the wine; 3rd Seal). They are calling for God to directly judge and avenge their blood, which He does starting with the 6th Seal. So, God's judgement begins indirectly with Seals 1-4 (God manipulating world events) and then directly intervenes Seal 6-Bowl 7, fulfilling the call of the martyrs. (This argument is quite a bit weaker then the one above, but if the one above is correct, then this minor quibble is moot). Revelation 11:17-18 is, in the Greek, in a rough equivalence with an English past tense: "you have taken the great power of you, and have begun to reign... and came the wrath of you and the time...to destroy those who are destroying the earth" (Greek interlinear, with doubling checking the tenses). These verses are describing a time that began in the past, not at the seventh trumpet. The time came, the Day of the LORD, the time to judge the dead, to reward the servants, and to destroy the evil. Let us break down Daniel 12:1-2. Daniel 12:1 says, "and at that time that your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book". This shows that all of those of Israel found written in the book will be delivered. It then says that many dead now will rise, but this does not draw congruence between being delivered and resurrection/glorification. It simply states that those of national Israel who are found written in the book (i.e. saved) will be delivered, and after that many will rise from the dead (Rev. 20:4). Joel 2:1-2 show that the Day will, at some point, be characterized by gloom and darkness. If the entire day was characterized as such, the fourth trumpet (which strikes a third of the sun) would be rendered moot (save for the speeding up of Earth's rotation). In Joel 2:10, it is describing events at the coming of the Son of Man, not the 6th Seal. The moon becomes blood red during the 6th Seal, not black (Rev. 6:12-13). The only time the moon goes dark is at the Second Coming proper (Matthew 24:29). Ultimately, I do think God pours out some of His wrath indirectly in Seals 1-4. However, even if I am wrong, the 24 Elders still stand, supporting a pre-trib Rapture. 4. I do not see the Bema seat or rewarding of the Church anywhere in Revelation, save references to the prior event. Show me where you see that . 5. Two cases Jesus states, "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36 ESV). It does not matter if one is in the light or in darkness: you do not know. I see no Scriptural support for the idea that those who are saved can know; Jesus flat out states, "Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." Note that Jesus says 'your Lord'; he is speaking to saved people, who are in the light. They have no clue. Now, don't think I didn't read fully your response; I saw your clarification on that one could know the place in the chronological order  . The problem is, this runs afoul of Acts 1:7: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority", speaking of the Kingdom's coming. Now, you might say, "You pre-tribbers say that the season is now!" Well, we don't know that; God could have chosen the Rapture for 2,000 more years in the future. We think it is soon, but we don't know. A non pre-trib theory lets Christians know for certain: after this event, this is the Season. This runs afoul of the aforementioned verse, because then we know the times and seasons fixed by God's authority. Now, when they happen, we will know, but we won't know beforehand. 6. I cited Eph. 2:14-16, but now I want to dig a little deeper. Here is Eph. 2:11-16, "Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility". God has made one New Man out of the Jews and the Gentiles, the Body of Christ. Thus, we are in no sense Israel; we are the New Man, made of both but being neither. This is the great mystery; "the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise". We and remnant Israel are linked by our sharing in the promise of Abraham, but we are not Israel. 7. Not necessarily. This world is ruled by the Satan, but Jesus walked around just fine two millennia ago. As the Ultimate Sovereign and Creator of the Universe, Jesus can go wherever He pleases whether Satan rules there or not, as shown by His First Advent. Thus, Jesus could come for us in the atmosphere before the casting down of the Satan's kingdom. 8. Again, it isn't direct, supernatural judgement against the Earth. God is simply manipulating geopolitical events to begin His judgement on the Earth, the same thing He has been doing since ancient times. The Assyrian invasion of Israel was no supernatural thing, yet it was most definitely an expression of God's wrath. It is the same with the Four Seals. Fine, it isn't grand supernatural displays of wrath, but it is wrath nonetheless, announced by angels (the four living creatures). Whatever Mystery Babylon is (capital of world empire, actual Babylon, entire world empire, etc.), the blood it sheds is paid back to it, but the paying back of the blood doesn't give justice to all the saints. In another place He says, "For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all my burning anger; for in the fire of my jealousy all the earth shall be consumed" (Zeph. 3:8). God is executing judgement on the whole world for their sin and for the saints. The angels are not to 'harm the earth or the sea or the trees' until the sealing. The next set of supernatural judgement (and perhaps the power of the four angels themselves) will be withheld until the sealing is complete, but this doesn't mean that God has not executed wrath. He has, for the Sixth Seal has been opened. Indeed, the proper end of the age is not yet. That occurs at His coming. The first four seals should not cause alarm; they most likely aren't even in the Tribulation proper. Joel 2:31 seems to say that the Day begins after the Sixth Seal, so the End is not yet. (The Four seals have to happen after the Rapture, but not necessarily during the Tribulation proper). 9. You have me . This is a parable about the Rapture, I now see. Thank you! Note this: the foolish virgins have no oil. Oil is a common metaphor for the Holy Spirit, and thus this shows they were never saved at all. This is a parable describing the Church Age; the wise accepted Christ, and go with the Bridegroom. The foolish never did, and thus cannot go. Ah, now here you start to mix things up a bit. Matthew 24:36-41 describes the believers being caught up, and then the others being left to face the 70th Week. As for Matthew 13:36-42, when is the Harvest? We agree, at the end of the 70th Week, (Rev. 14:14-20). However, the good being harvested is the Jews/Tribulation Saints, while the bad being crushed/burned are the unbelieving population, for this is what happens at the end of the Week (Isaiah 27:13). The Gospel is preached to the whole world by an angel in Revelation, which fulfills Jesus's prophecy: "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Revelation 14:6-7). This gives the whole world one last chance before the end of the Week. The witnesses simply speak for God (prophesize); while I'm sure they will proclaim the Gospel, they obviously don't do that to the whole world, for then the angel would not have to proclaim it. The trumpet in Matthew 24 is the one that gathers the Jews/Trib Saints to Jesus at the end of the Week. Welcome back. Hope all is well!! I had to find time to reply, I have been busy at home lately. 2. You had said: I think the issue is this, you are trying to understand the text from your point of view rather then just understanding the text. You try to justify the elders being the church then to say we have 2 groups signing a song. How do we interpret what they are saying, not who they are. You are interpreting who they are and then "guestimating how the song might appear." I think it prudent that at this momment, we ignore who they may be and focus on what we know they are. We don't know who the elders are. But we do know the 4 living beasts are angels. We also know both groups sing the same song together. If they both sang the song together, we don't know how they sung it. We don't know if the song separated stanzas like a song could with a female and male choir each doing their own part yet the song still implies the same thing. Bu the fact remains that the song was sung by both parties and angels cannot be redeemed. Verse 9 does not say or allude to the elders singing "thou has redeemed us". We can only understand what was given to us as both groups sing it. So the fact remains that we can try to justify what might make sense and conclude saying "we agree, the angels are not redeemed so it must have been just the elders" but doing so disagrees with the verse and is bringing our own inclinations into the scripture. So how do we understand it? By the facts of scripture interpreting scripture without trying to justify preconceived notions or who the elders are and not adding to the text what we think it may be. So lets look at the facts: 1. The 4 living beasts are angels and cannot be redeemed and cannot rule as priests. 2. The 4 living beast sing with the elders the same song. Both present a problem. So what does scripture say that can help? In Luke 8:4-15, we have the prabale of the sower. We understand a few things from it. 1. The sower is the believer. 2. The believer sows seed and the seed is the word of God 3. The seed is sown by some, and watered by others 3. The good seed is those that believe and they take forth root and grow and bring forth fruit to perfection 4. The bad seed is sown by Satan (called tares/weeds) 5. Both seeds (believers and non believers/hearers with no root/hearers who care for the world more) In Matthew 13:24-30, the parable is explained more because there are questions. If we as believers were hearers of the word and now we sow seed. And another believer comes along and waters the same seed that it may grow...who then reaps the seed? In Matthew 13:39, Christ says the reapers are angels. Now follow with me, If Christ is removing all workers of iniquity, he is doing it out of "his kingdom". That is because he is reigning and he does not reign till the 7th Trumpet blows. Yet in verse 30 it reads: So we are not reaped till the harvest. And we know from revelation, that does not happen till after the 144k appear and after Babylon is destroyed per Rev 14. And in Rev 19, we see the same description. Babylon is destroyed, Christ reigns and we are received. So what does this have to do with the song sung? The song has to do with when we reign. The 24 elders and 4 living beasts are singong a song based upon our inheritance. The inheritance doesnt happen till after the 144k and after Babylon is destroyed. So how would we be in heaven as elders, as that is a guess, if none of those things happened yet? We can only use scripture to tell us things, you and I cannot try to guess at what we think and work around it. We can only work with the facts and there are no facts that say elders are anything but elders at this moment. 3. Ok, I hope I am not beating a dead horse. Let me phrase it this way: Believers ask God: When will you [GOD] have vengeance on the wicked of the earth who killed us and judge them? God answers them in Rev 8:3-4 God has just sealed the 144k to prevent them from being displaced by the trumpets. That was the "hurt not...till we seal.." Now that they have been sealed, the prayers will be answered and these things will be hurt. The trumpets act as God's judgement to avenge the payers of the saints. Now let me go back to what you said: The object is not the color of the moon or sun. The object is what they mean. Both cases represent mourning. It demonstrates loss of spiritual light on earth and increase of darkness. In regards to Matthew 24, I disagree with your statement. I will post it below. Verse 29 demonstrates the 6th seal. And verse 30 does show the 2nd coming. But they do not go hand in hand. What the 2 verse show is the sun/moon must be darkened before the 2nd coming. That is why once this event happens, verse 30 responds "and then.." It does not mean directly after because we dont know how long from the 6th seal to the second coming comes whether by hours, days, weeks or months after this event. But we do know that the 2nd coming comes sometime after the event which is exactly how the verses read. Joel 3:12-14 shows the DotL comes "near" the harvest. And Zephaniah 1:7 shows the DotL is "at hand" at the wedding sacrifice that he bids his guests. Both of these are at the end of the 42 months when Christ reigns. Not when there are still 7 years left. As I said previously, we are resurrected at the last day. 4. 5. I dont know the time of the season and I dont know the day or the hour. But I do know what to look for. That still does not tell me the year, the day, the month and the hour. But the Bible does tell me the "when" and the "how" based upon when I see certain things happen and how they happen. And knowing this, I still dont know the time itll happen. But when it does happen, if I am on earth, I will know I am in it because I am of the light and are awake. 6. Yes, we both share in the promise of Abraham. This is correct. But what does Romans 9:6 say For the seed of Isaac is by faith, not by blood and therefore we are of Israel. For the Jews (the natural branch) which are of Israel by blood and lack faith are not true Israel. But true Israel is the seed by faith whether Jew or Gentile. And our grafting together with true Israel in our adoption; This is why we cry Abba, Father. Part of the inheritance, part of Israel as adopted children and sons of God. We are Israel and we are Jews. 7. Of course Christ can come and go as it pleases God. I was not talking about his ability to move about, but rather to spoil Satan's domain. If we reign with Christ for 1 k years, that means we must be resurrected at the time he reigns. It is the same time Satan is in the pit for 1k years. If Christ reigns at the 7th trumpet, it seems plausible to understand that Satan is bound the same time and not before hand. If Satan is on the earth before the 7th Trumpet not bound, he is free to sow his seed as Christ does as well meaning the harvest hasnt happened before the 7th trumpet. 8. I am confused by your statement, I tried reading it but I am not following you. 9. My friend, I dont "have you." I am not trying to win anything. If you see something as me, it is only the HS working. I am here to edify, learn and explain. I believe God has shown me something unique and if others can see it, give God glory. You stated: Believers are tabernacled and the wicked face wrath. Let us leave out 70th week and 7 years. We are placed into safety and the wicked are not. Remember the verse about the bema and rewards? Now look at the rest. If we are just judged and rewarded..we are saved and changed. But right after this, it is time to destroy those that destroy the earth. That backs up Matthew 24:36-41 As for the harvest, I explained that in point 2 above. You need to let go of "for this is what happens at the end of the week" comments. Let us focus on what the scripture says without any presumptions clearing the way for just scripture. Some believe 70th week still applies, some dont. Some 3.5 years, some 7 years...etc Again look at the facts. We are sowers. We sow seed. The seed matures and is harvested at the end of the age by angels and Christ. Christ reaps the wheat into his barn and the weeds are to burned. Those are all facts. When are believers who were sowing harvested into his barn? Rev 14 says after the 144k and after Babylon is destroyed. Rev 19 makes it even clearer imo. |
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Post by venge on Sept 29, 2019 13:28:39 GMT -6
beloved, I read your posting and see that you make some assumptions the foundation of which is that "men cannot be angels." First of all let me say that in scripture angels can metaphorically mean men, secondly, in my opinion angels can literally be men. The following are the excerpts from your post to which I refer: 2. a. "... Here is the problem; the Greek says 'us' in the first part, in 22 out of 23 manuscripts that have this verse. If both parties sing both verses together and both are angels, then we have angels singing, "You were slain, and by your blood ransomed US for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation", which is absurd under our current assumptions."2. b. "Now, the phrase "and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God" is correct. So, if both parties are singing the whole time, we have angels singing about how they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus (which is nonsensical) and then a sudden switch to people who have been made priests and who will reign. If both parties are angels, this passage is nonsensical." 2. c. "However, since every bit of God's word is perfectly logical, this cannot be. So, one or both of our underlying assumptions is wrong (both parties are angels and both parties sing the whole time). 2. d. "Now, the four living creatures are clearly angels; they are quite similar to the cherubim of Ezekiel, though they are not composite...."2. e. "My interpretation, as I hope I have shown, is built on logical necessity; the Elders must sing the part in the first person about being redeemed for the living creatures (who are obviously angels) cannot, while the creatures must sing the third person part (for the Elders would not sing in third person about themselves). Both groups sing, so the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled. This leaves this interpretation as, as far as I can see, the only logical one that properly takes into account the Greek text. 2. f. "This shows that the Elders must be the Church, IMHO. If they were not, we would have angels singing about being redeemed, which is folly, as you yourself have said. " In my understanding is that the four living creatures are in a role of authority and are identified in Ezekiel as such, but more than that, the four living creatures are four individuals. Secondly, the angels are men having been redeemed by the blood of Christ. Metaphorically speaking, they could have been called worms or fiery snakes both of which are in line with OT text. However, the idea that angels are some creation beyond our understanding adds an element of bewilderment to the understanding. Thus, angels is the perfect word in the context of the book. Nevertheless, angels are simply men with a specific assignment in most cases and never a being other than mankind. God created men in his image and there are other creations but only Christ between man and God; not some other creation like the mystical angels. I have to disagree Boraddict Christ comes with 2 other men. Not Christ with 2 regular men for who were they? It would have been told but they were angels accompanying him. And when Chist spoke to Abraham, where did the 2 angels go? Now look at Ch. 19. Yes, some angels are men as they are messangers of God. I agree. But some angels are of heaven as Michael and Gabriel and these 2. Not all are men and not all are heavenly. |
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Post by venge on Sept 29, 2019 13:32:07 GMT -6
boraddict , Dear sister, I am afraid we shall have to disagree. The author of Hebrews makes the distinction, when he says, "Are [the angels] not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14 ESV), making a distinction between the ones who receive the inheritance, us, and the servants, the angels. God testifies that the angels were there during the time of Creation, when He says, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth...? On what were it's bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:4-6 ESV). But man did not exist when the Earth was first created, for we were made on the sixth day. Finally, of the angels, it is written, "He makes his messengers winds, His ministers a flaming fire" (Psalm 104:4), but of us it is written, "So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God" (Galatians 4:7). Are the heirs the servants? No, we are the children of God. All these things together show that the angels are quite different from us, made before us, and have a different purpose then us. That is an interesting doctrine. Nevertheless, in my opinion there is only God the Father and his children of which Christ was first. Some followed Lucifer in rebellion and some did not. Today upon the earth some follow Lucifer and some do not. Those who follow Christ may have ministering spirits that are their brothers and sisters whereas those who follow Lucifer may have their ravaging demons supporting them. In the first case those called to minister are called angels and in the second case those are called devils. The issue is weather you believe we began when we were born upon this earth or that we began prior to the creation of this earth. Since Christ began prior to his birth upon this earth then it is reasonable that we his brothers and sisters also began prior to our birth upon this earth. The angels are simply individuals with a specific calling but are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They are redeemed through the blood of Christ because they were sinners. Nevertheless, I do understand the doctrine that you believe. For me however there is only God and his children; some following the Christ, and some following the Devil. No one else. I pray the morning star is in my heart and I pray I would be a light bringer. Now if you mean Satan, he was a murderer from the beginning. How can Satan be a shining star from the beginning and a murderer from the beginning? |
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Post by boraddict on Sept 30, 2019 16:21:32 GMT -6
That is an interesting doctrine. Nevertheless, in my opinion there is only God the Father and his children of which Christ was first. Some followed Lucifer in rebellion and some did not. Today upon the earth some follow Lucifer and some do not. Those who follow Christ may have ministering spirits that are their brothers and sisters whereas those who follow Lucifer may have their ravaging demons supporting them. In the first case those called to minister are called angels and in the second case those are called devils. The issue is weather you believe we began when we were born upon this earth or that we began prior to the creation of this earth. Since Christ began prior to his birth upon this earth then it is reasonable that we his brothers and sisters also began prior to our birth upon this earth. The angels are simply individuals with a specific calling but are our brothers and sisters in Christ. They are redeemed through the blood of Christ because they were sinners. Nevertheless, I do understand the doctrine that you believe. For me however there is only God and his children; some following the Christ, and some following the Devil. No one else. I pray the morning star is in my heart and I pray I would be a light bringer. Now if you mean Satan, he was a murderer from the beginning. How can Satan be a shining star from the beginning and a murderer from the beginning? Yes, I agree. The Morning Star represents someone other than Satan. For some reason I think about Rev. 22 when contemplating the Morning Star. As I recall, there are several inconspicuous links from the seven churches in Chapters two and three to Chapter 22 and the Morning Star is one of those links. The following are some of the links to which I refer: 1) eat of the Tree of Life (Christ), Rev. 2:7 links to Rev. 22:2,14 2) not be hurt of the second death (resurrection to eternal life), Rev. 2:11 links to Rev. 22:5 3) eat of the Hidden Manna (Christ) and receive the white stone containing a new name. Notice that this stone is not referenced in Rev. 4:3 or 22:19-20; however, the reward that is "white" links to holy in Rev. 22:11 and the right to the Tree of Life (Christ) in Rev. 22:14. So the stone and new name pertain to having access to Christ in the hereafter (Rev. 4). 4) the Morning Star, Rev. 2:28. So here it is and it links to Rev. 22:16. "I (Christ) am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." Thus, Lord Jesus is the Morning Star. (KJV) |
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Post by boraddict on Sept 30, 2019 16:29:05 GMT -6
beloved, I read your posting and see that you make some assumptions the foundation of which is that "men cannot be angels." First of all let me say that in scripture angels can metaphorically mean men, secondly, in my opinion angels can literally be men. The following are the excerpts from your post to which I refer: 2. a. "... Here is the problem; the Greek says 'us' in the first part, in 22 out of 23 manuscripts that have this verse. If both parties sing both verses together and both are angels, then we have angels singing, "You were slain, and by your blood ransomed US for God, from every tribe and language and people and nation", which is absurd under our current assumptions."2. b. "Now, the phrase "and you have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God" is correct. So, if both parties are singing the whole time, we have angels singing about how they were redeemed by the blood of Jesus (which is nonsensical) and then a sudden switch to people who have been made priests and who will reign. If both parties are angels, this passage is nonsensical." 2. c. "However, since every bit of God's word is perfectly logical, this cannot be. So, one or both of our underlying assumptions is wrong (both parties are angels and both parties sing the whole time). 2. d. "Now, the four living creatures are clearly angels; they are quite similar to the cherubim of Ezekiel, though they are not composite...."2. e. "My interpretation, as I hope I have shown, is built on logical necessity; the Elders must sing the part in the first person about being redeemed for the living creatures (who are obviously angels) cannot, while the creatures must sing the third person part (for the Elders would not sing in third person about themselves). Both groups sing, so the first part of verse 9 is fulfilled. This leaves this interpretation as, as far as I can see, the only logical one that properly takes into account the Greek text. 2. f. "This shows that the Elders must be the Church, IMHO. If they were not, we would have angels singing about being redeemed, which is folly, as you yourself have said. " In my understanding is that the four living creatures are in a role of authority and are identified in Ezekiel as such, but more than that, the four living creatures are four individuals. Secondly, the angels are men having been redeemed by the blood of Christ. Metaphorically speaking, they could have been called worms or fiery snakes both of which are in line with OT text. However, the idea that angels are some creation beyond our understanding adds an element of bewilderment to the understanding. Thus, angels is the perfect word in the context of the book. Nevertheless, angels are simply men with a specific assignment in most cases and never a being other than mankind. God created men in his image and there are other creations but only Christ between man and God; not some other creation like the mystical angels. I have to disagree Boraddict Christ comes with 2 other men. Not Christ with 2 regular men for who were they? It would have been told but they were angels accompanying him. And when Chist spoke to Abraham, where did the 2 angels go? Now look at Ch. 19. Yes, some angels are men as they are messangers of God. I agree. But some angels are of heaven as Michael and Gabriel and these 2. Not all are men and not all are heavenly. I am of the opinion that Michael is Adam and Gabriel is John the beloved. So to Abraham it was Christ (not yet born mortal), Adam (having already been born mortal), and John (not yet born mortal). I see these two men as angels throughout the OT and NT. |
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Post by mike on Sept 30, 2019 19:48:25 GMT -6
BORA - this is not scriptural. Adam was Adam period. John was John, Michael the archangel was not God's first man created. We have covered this once before here. It is the doctrine of error from LDS. Please do not post error on this site |
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Post by yardstick on Sept 30, 2019 23:08:08 GMT -6
boraddict Here is a link to the excerpt LDS teaching that Adam was Michael (pre-incarnate): www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1980/10/adam-the-archangel?lang=engvenge While bora is in the hot seat (as it were) regarding interpretation of men and angels, I want to make sure I am understanding your point about angels and redemption. Does the below sound like what you are saying: Grammatically, the word "they" in Revelation 5:8-11 (of the quoted text you used) could just as easily refer to only the elders, and not the four living creatures or the angels who stood around the throne, because grammatically, the 'they' is plural and the passage does not indicate which group or groups it is referring to. Since it is well established in Biblical research (and most doctrines confirm this) that angels cannot be redeemed, this passage and the word 'they' could logically be understood to only refer to the elders - in the context of the translated passage you have been citing. Other scenes which include the 24 elders doing the falling down and worshipping include of 5:14, 7:11, 11:16 and 19:4. Of these, 5:14, 11:16 do not show the living creatures falling down and worshipping; and 7:11 and 19:4 do show them, in addition to the elders. 5:14 only shows the living creatures saying "amen" 7:11 shows all of them saying whats in verse 12 11:16 only has the elders saying whats in vs 17-18; and 19:4 has the living creatures and elders saying "amen, hallelujah" FWIW and notwithstanding the above, the passage of 5:8-14 clearly indicates WHO was redeemed halfway through verse 9 using the NIV: None of the bolded font above, describing what groups had people purchased out of them, include groups of angels. Always in the Bible when a phrase such as the bolded one above is used, it refers to human beings. Therefore, it can logically follow, given the NIV translation that even if the four living creatures and angels were also singing the song, they were not referring to themselves (or any other angels) as being redeemed. Does the above sound like an accurate analysis of what you have been saying?
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Post by venge on Oct 1, 2019 4:02:19 GMT -6
yardstickFor the most part, yes. Previously, I mentioned that sometimes the word angelos can be a man. But they also can be heavenly. I prefer to always take it heavenly (to be safe) unless scripture defines it differently. I can explain more another time. In regards to your post above, the people identified as tongues, tribes etc are God’s people that is shown to encompass the world. They also reign on earth, not heaven, with Christ. The 4 living beasts are described in Ezekiel as angelic and I agree with you that they cannot be redeemed. The problem I espoused is that if you or others go into this already with the assumption the elders are “us”, you corrupt the translation. Not because you’re right or wrong but because you have made up your mind already with preconceived notions. Both groups sing the same song together. Is it a choir? To make the elders the church, people must bend and try to make fit what John saw. Who sings what at what time is not said, so I cannot “guess” at scripture to make it fit a preconceived notion. Both groups, one is definitely angelic, sing the same song. They sing it together. They sing it at the same time because if they didn’t, scripture would dictate differently. If you removed the idea that elders are us, how does that change revelation? I’d love you guys to think about that. Go back and read and think how it would play out. Obviously, The problem with these verses are due to the “us” “we” “they” “them”. Using “us” and “we” is wrong as angels can’t rule or be redeemed. The second sentence must be “they”. But of the first, if it’s “us”, are angels redeemed? No. But we cannot guess who is singing, we don’t know. The only logical word imo is “them”. This allows both groups singing to do so as scripture shows and it leaves out rewarding any angels. This is why I asked in a previous post, if the elders are us..where is the bema, the reward, the last trumpet, the archangel, etc in ch. 5? None of it is there. Why are the elders holding prayers of the saints if they are the saints in ch. 5? We are raptured right? So whose prayers are they cause the first seal isn’t opened yet so they are not Trib saints. There are many more issues to think they are “us”. If they were, why all the problems? Wouldn’t it be very evident as God’s word is?
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Post by Natalie on Oct 1, 2019 7:43:51 GMT -6
I am with you, Venge (for once! ) and think it should be translated as they and them. I do not think the elders are the church (I think they are God's heavenly council mentioned in the OT). But my view differs in this way: I think the raptured church is in the New Jerusalem (the place Jesus is preparing for us, not the throne room). The prayers are of those who are coming to Christ after the rapture and into the Time of Jacob's Trouble. I think the correct way to translate it is that the elders and creatures are singing about what Christ has done in redeeming mankind. |
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Post by boraddict on Oct 1, 2019 8:21:15 GMT -6
Sorry about the LDS thing. Although they have Michael as Adam, I do not know if they have Gabriel as John.
At any rate, we can agree that Micheal participates in the latter day events due to Dan. 12:1. I am convinced that he is the angel "standing" in Rev. 10:2.
Gabriel on the other hand does not have such a good link to the Book of Revelation but we know that he participates in some regard because of the reference in Dan. 9:21. In that verse he is called a man (KJV) although it is clear that he is an angel because of other references about him in scripture.
These are the two witnesses in Rev. 11, in my opinion.
Post Script: The problem is that the two witnesses are clearly mortal men since they are killed.
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Post by venge on Oct 1, 2019 8:51:55 GMT -6
I am with you, Venge (for once! ) and think it should be translated as they and them. I do not think the elders are the church (I think they are God's heavenly council mentioned in the OT). But my view differs in this way: I think the raptured church is in the New Jerusalem (the place Jesus is preparing for us, not the throne room). The prayers are of those who are coming to Christ after the rapture and into the Time of Jacob's Trouble. I think the correct way to translate it is that the elders and creatures are singing about what Christ has done in redeeming mankind. Haha You made me smile 😊 If the prayers are those after the rapture, whose prayers are they? The first seal isn’t opened yet. So the prayers are not the church if a rapture happened. And the prayers wouldn’t be unsaved or wicked because on the earth, all still appears as normal. But, if the rapture has not happened, it makes sense because the prayers are of believers regarding the song sung. Believers, that are redeemed, praying for their Christ to come that they may reign on earth with him! And God is faithful to bring it about because it hadn’t happened yet at that time. But because it was mentioned, it demonstrates God about to move forward with his plan to achieve what the prayers ask for. Sister, I love you! You are dead on. The song sung is about Christ’s redeeming work for all mankind. Imo, it’s not about an event that happened specifically at the moment sung but what Christ has planned. And it couldn’t be sung till he entered heaven in Ch.5 Notice there was no song, no thankfulness, no jubilee of being in heaven...nothing by the elders in Ch.4 They serve a role but are far from the great multitude. And in each case, refer to all believers seen in heaven in the third person rather than the same body of Christ. If we are to believe that they represent the 24 order of worship from the OT passages, than they existed back then as the earthly portion was a shadow of what already existed in heaven. |
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Post by venge on Oct 1, 2019 8:59:38 GMT -6
Sorry about the LDS thing. Although they have Michael as Adam, I do not know if they have Gabriel as John. At any rate, we can agree that Micheal participates in the latter day events due to Dan. 12:1. I am convinced that he is the angel "standing" in Rev. 10:2. Gabriel on the other hand does not have such a good link to the Book of Revelation but we know that he participates in some regard because of the reference in Dan. 9:21. In that verse he is called a man (KJV) although it is clear that he is an angel because of other references about him in scripture. These are the two witnesses in Rev. 11, in my opinion. Bora I’d say this, we are called to witness to mankind. Angels are not called to testify. It is commanded of us. Also, please take this challenge. When Christ speaks of witnesses, who is he referring to? How many can go? What is their purpose? Is it limited to apostles and the most faithful or who? I think that will expand your thoughts on it as it has my own. |
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Anyway, here is my (long awaited) response:
. The problem is, this runs afoul of Acts 1:7: "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority", speaking of the Kingdom's coming. Now, you might say, "You pre-tribbers say that the season is now!" Well, we don't know that; God could have chosen the Rapture for 2,000 more years in the future. We think it is soon, but we don't know. A non pre-trib theory lets Christians know for certain: after this event, this is the Season. This runs afoul of the aforementioned verse, because then we know the times and seasons fixed by God's authority. Now, when they happen, we will know, but we won't know beforehand.
