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Post by venge on Jul 12, 2019 16:25:47 GMT -6
All of these things are seen in Revelation previous to a change in the world. I am curious to hear what others think on the subject.
These 3 things do not seem to cause any danger or wrath from God.
The earthquake is introduced. Now, I realize some here take this literally, but is it possible to look at this another way or is it not possible? Biblehub has it as:
Transliteration: seismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sice-mos')
Definition: a commotion, shaking
Are all shakings and commotions the earth shaking from tectonic plates? Does the earth shake from a great commotion? Such as Babylon being destroyed? War? or things of this nature. Does an earthquake, whether literal or figurative, mean wrath? It can mean destruction, but it can also mean fear.
Hebrews 12:21 explains Moses and the people when they heard thunders, lightnings and a trumpet and the entire camp trembled/quaked with fear. There was a great commotion. There was a mountain burning with smoke.
If one man can quake in fear, and a great city of the world was to be destroyed which caused all the world to cry out from loss of riches and to hide themselves in rocks and caves....wouldnt mankind on the earth quake in fear? Could that be an earth quake? Could is be a shaking on the earth? Could it be a great commotion? The importance is to show that if you believe it could be or that you believe it is not...is it wrath on ALL mankind? The earthquake mentioned in Rev 16:18 is different.
The reason being is that this earthquake is said to have never happened ever before and that The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed.
This earthquake in Rev 16 sounds literal as the description it holds. It explains the destruction but it also falls in the vials of wrath. So this earthquake is not the same because it is preceded by great hail which is wrath.
After the 7th Trumpet is sound, when Christ begins to reign, we see this:
Hail or a great tempest/storm is always used as God's destructive force. It is many times referred to an "an east wind". As from the east of Israel, their enemies usually came from there to destroy them. There can be no doubt that the term great hailstones are wrath as this coincides with the vials of God's wrath. It is interesting that this wrath in the form of hail happens after Christ reigns which allows him to destroy his enemies as Rev 11:18 shows:
Judge the dead (bema seat), Reward the servants...now that he reigns and finally destroy the wicked on the earth. If God hasnt destroyed the wicked on the earth till now, what was being destroyed back in the earthquake of Rev 8:5? Remember Ezekiel 10 ?
This is exactly what the angel did in Rev 8:5. He took the censer and filled it with fire from the alter (coals) and tossed them to the earth. Now, In Ezekiel 10, the coals were scattered over a city (Jerusalem) to destroy it. It wasnt meant to destroy other nations, peoples etc...Is it possible, that the destruction of mystery Babylon is the world quaking in fear that we see?
That is a lot of commotion and quaking!
Now, not to get off subject as I get excited...but what do you think. Earthquakes, Great Hail, thunders and voices....
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 14, 2019 8:00:09 GMT -6
recently I have a different take on parts of Revelation than I did before. Even too, with this repetitive vision of John. When I read this verse I think of this verse:
24“For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.
This vision by John, to me, is the power of God being revealed from the heavens. Not a literal storm, but a description of His might where it causes one to look up to look around. It is manifested enough to cause a change or to make a pronouncement that does not go unnoticed. It may be physical literal like with this scene:
and lo, there came a great earthquake, for a messenger of the Lord, having come down out of heaven, having come, did roll away the stone from the door, and was sitting upon it,
but for certain John's vision here of saying there was lightening, thunders and an earthquake, maybe some hail, to me is Jesus.
To translate in how I see it:
"Out of the throne Jesus came."
The LORD will cause people to hear his majestic voice and will make them see his arm coming down with raging anger and consuming fire, with cloudburst, thunderstorm and hail. (from Is 30)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 14, 2019 12:09:38 GMT -6
venge, questions: I see that you are saying that there is a progression. First just lightning and thunder. Then the two and an earthquake.. Then, the 3 of these things then hail.. Are you saying there is a progression of events? Is there a distinction of the wrath from trumpets based on this vision of thunder/lightning/earthquake/hail? Does this weather-like vision link parts of the Revealing together? or does it help distinguish events as separate things because of the terms used in the vision? just wanting to a get a sense of what you are seeing here...
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Post by venge on Jul 14, 2019 17:14:36 GMT -6
venge, questions: I see that you are saying that there is a progression. First just lightning and thunder. Then the two and an earthquake.. Then, the 3 of these things then hail.. Are you saying there is a progression of events? Is there a distinction of the wrath from trumpets based on this vision of thunder/lightning/earthquake/hail? Does this weather-like vision link parts of the Revealing together? or does it help distinguish events as separate things because of the terms used in the vision? just wanting to a get a sense of what you are seeing here... Well, for one, those that think the seals and trumpets and bowls stack on each other in some regard — I don’t see that possible because it’s evident that there is a progression. Each (lightening, voices, etc) adding one to the scope of world events and as an earthquake is introduced, we see things during the trumpets that suggest fear. The mention of earthquake in the prerequisite doesn’t link to any specific literal earthquake in the trumpets. Otherwise, we’d see literal earthquakes in every trumpet that sounds; which we don’t. It also doesn’t seem to fit what’s happening at that time. But as I stated earlier, hail has been used to describe destruction. In Israeli imagery, people as wheat or barely are destroyed by a tempest/storm/hail and the destruction is described as killing the vine, the branches, the fruit...all things that we know from the Bible that are literal but also have duel meaning Christ used to describe people and their spiritual conditions. |
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Post by venge on Jul 19, 2019 15:13:34 GMT -6
I am surprised that many don't here haven't replied to this subject.
A few different verses explaining each category.
Voices:
Thunder and Lightning:
Even showing the earth quaking....
Earthquakes:
Hail:
Hail as fiery coals and a scorching wind/tempest. Its meant as destruction
God spares his people from (his wrath in the form of) the hail that kills/destroys
------
Now, I only posted a few for each but to me, it is obvious. The voices, lightnings and thunders are not wrath in any degree. If that holds true, the first time we see it is in Rev 4:5 before the opening of the seals making all the seals NOT wrath. Before the first trumpet is blown, earthquake is added to the mix. Above, the earth shakes, trembles and moves always out of "fear" of what is going on. How much devastation will be happening on the earth is known, but from these sources, they are not God's wrath though in 2 Samuel we see God is angered. Yet, when we get to hail, it follows God's anger and becomes wrath and destruction.
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Post by yardstick on Jul 21, 2019 1:07:26 GMT -6
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Post by yardstick on Jul 21, 2019 1:25:56 GMT -6
venge , questions: I see that you are saying that there is a progression. First just lightning and thunder. Then the two and an earthquake.. Then, the 3 of these things then hail.. Are you saying there is a progression of events? Is there a distinction of the wrath from trumpets based on this vision of thunder/lightning/earthquake/hail? Does this weather-like vision link parts of the Revealing together? or does it help distinguish events as separate things because of the terms used in the vision? just wanting to a get a sense of what you are seeing here... Well, for one, those that think the seals and trumpets and bowls stack on each other in some regard — I don’t see that possible because it’s evident that there is a progression. Each (lightening, voices, etc) adding one to the scope of world events and as an earthquake is introduced, we see things during the trumpets that suggest fear. The mention of earthquake in the prerequisite doesn’t link to any specific literal earthquake in the trumpets. Otherwise, we’d see literal earthquakes in every trumpet that sounds; which we don’t. It also doesn’t seem to fit what’s happening at that time. But as I stated earlier, hail has been used to describe destruction. In Israeli imagery, people as wheat or barely are destroyed by a tempest/storm/hail and the destruction is described as killing the vine, the branches, the fruit...all things that we know from the Bible that are literal but also have duel meaning Christ used to describe people and their spiritual conditions. I don't see anywhere in the 7 trumpet judgments where there is an earthquake. Can you get me the reference please? Maybe I just overlooked it. I see an earthquake in Rev 11:13, but I do not see how it is the result of Trumpet 6, which appears to have been described in Rev 9:13. Everything I see after this section appears to be some kind of vignette prior to Trumpet 7 sounding. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 21, 2019 8:21:00 GMT -6
6th seal and what is associated with it: 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. [the kings and what seems to be everyone] calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
greek words
oros meaning mountain
petra meaning a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground.
Yes, when we go to these words like mountains and rocks we see that the greek defines them as literal elements we are familiar with from our viewpoint on earth, and they are the words that John used to describe his vision. But he is seeing it from the Spiritual side..does that mean they are equivalent?
How (and namely WHY) are what seems to be the entire portion of mankind asking the mountains to fall on them? Really? literal mountain to fall on everyone? Yes I know there are things like rocks slides, but from this list of people: Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, seeking to hide in the mountains and caves and want the mountains to fall on them. Not every place on earth has a mountain available. what about the slave and free? who is a slave and who is free? Is this literal slaves like in the early days of the US?
We don't have cliff notes nor an interpreter on what John means here, but to me this is a picture that mankind is hiding in shame, among his religious constructs and the thing he thinks will keep him from being exposed by the Light of Truth. Back to the question of slave...
Paul seems to define the slave and the free:
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Rom 8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
1Cor 2 But the natural man receiveth [accepts] not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If I were to say, the Lord is my ROCK, it would be translated in the greek as a stone, cliff piece, ledge, inert conglomerate of minerals held together to form a solid mass. Is Jesus a literal rock? It does not say the Lord is LIKE a rock in this psalm:
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. and the hebrew word used here for rock is defined as cliff, crag
My point is that yes, the word seismos is used in regard to earthquake because the Spiritual vision shown to John looked like an earthquake. Yet we have to let the Lord (Holy Spirit) reveal what John saw from the heavenlies to what it means physically to man. I say lay all literal physical aside for a moment and meditate on what it is saying in the Spirit.. I am encouraging and imploring that it is ok to ponder the literal Spiritual most likely will not be the exact copy of earthly things. It is ok to seek the things of the Spirit.
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
The substance belongs to Christ, and Paul says we know not Christ according to the flesh anymore. To me this seems important to apply to the Book of the Revealing of Christ. Seems fitting it is pertinent to seek the Spiritual meaning of these rather simple, literal, physical terms that John uses.
Are we not taught to seek things of the Spirit?
9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
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Post by venge on Jul 21, 2019 12:00:39 GMT -6
Well, for one, those that think the seals and trumpets and bowls stack on each other in some regard — I don’t see that possible because it’s evident that there is a progression. Each (lightening, voices, etc) adding one to the scope of world events and as an earthquake is introduced, we see things during the trumpets that suggest fear. The mention of earthquake in the prerequisite doesn’t link to any specific literal earthquake in the trumpets. Otherwise, we’d see literal earthquakes in every trumpet that sounds; which we don’t. It also doesn’t seem to fit what’s happening at that time. But as I stated earlier, hail has been used to describe destruction. In Israeli imagery, people as wheat or barely are destroyed by a tempest/storm/hail and the destruction is described as killing the vine, the branches, the fruit...all things that we know from the Bible that are literal but also have duel meaning Christ used to describe people and their spiritual conditions. I don't see anywhere in the 7 trumpet judgments where there is an earthquake. Can you get me the reference please? Maybe I just overlooked it. I see an earthquake in Rev 11:13, but I do not see how it is the result of Trumpet 6, which appears to have been described in Rev 9:13. Everything I see after this section appears to be some kind of vignette prior to Trumpet 7 sounding. hello yardstick , That is my point. Before the 1st Trumpet is blown, we see in Rev 8:5- In the 7 trumpets listed, there is not a literal earthquake mentioned. Yet, it is said in verse 5 above that there is. Therefore, is this a literal earthquake? I had also linked the definition according to Biblehub for seismos and it had it as a comotion or shaking. It can, but does not have to be, a literal earthquake to be a comotion or a shaking in the earth. For men are earthy because we are of the earth. And mankind being shook would be an earthquake. So why is there added that there will be an earthquake, when no literal earthquakes are mentioned.... EDIT: In Isaiah 14:16 Transliteration: raash Phonetic Spelling: (raw-ash) Definition: to quake, shake In this word, it is a "man", that causes a shaking. Also a quake. But look at the other verses that use this word and how it works with seismos Link from Biblehub: Judges 5:4 HEB: אֱד֔וֹם אֶ֣רֶץ רָעָ֔שָׁה גַּם־ שָׁמַ֖יִם NAS: The earth quaked, the heavens KJV: the earth trembled, and the heavens INT: of Edom the earth quaked also the heavens 2 Samuel 22:8 HEB: (וַיִּתְגָּעַ֤שׁ ק) וַתִּרְעַשׁ֙ הָאָ֔רֶץ מוֹסְד֥וֹת NAS: shook and quaked, The foundations KJV: shook and trembled; the foundations INT: shook and quaked the earth the foundations Job 39:20 HEB: הְֽ֭תַרְעִישֶׁנּוּ כָּאַרְבֶּ֑ה ה֖וֹד NAS: Do you make him leap like the locust? KJV: Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? INT: leap grasshopper beauty Psalm 18:7 HEB: וַתִּגְעַ֬שׁ וַתִּרְעַ֨שׁ ׀ הָאָ֗רֶץ וּמוֹסְדֵ֣י NAS: shook and quaked; And the foundations KJV: shook and trembled; the foundations INT: shook and quaked the earth the foundations Psalm 46:3 HEB: יֶחְמְר֣וּ מֵימָ֑יו יִֽרְעֲשֽׁוּ־ הָרִ֖ים בְּגַאֲוָת֣וֹ NAS: Though the mountains quake at its swelling pride. KJV: [though] the mountains shake with the swelling INT: foam waters quake the mountains swelling Psalm 60:2 HEB: הִרְעַ֣שְׁתָּה אֶ֣רֶץ פְּצַמְתָּ֑הּ NAS: You have made the land quake, You have split it open; KJV: Thou hast made the earth to tremble; thou hast broken INT: quake the land have split Psalm 68:8 HEB: אֶ֤רֶץ רָעָ֨שָׁה ׀ אַף־ שָׁמַ֣יִם NAS: The earth quaked; The heavens also KJV: The earth shook, the heavens INT: the earth quaked also the heavens Psalm 72:16 HEB: בְּרֹ֪אשׁ הָ֫רִ֥ים יִרְעַ֣שׁ כַּלְּבָנ֣וֹן פִּרְי֑וֹ NAS: Its fruit will wave like [the cedars of] Lebanon; KJV: the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: INT: top of the mountains will wave Lebanon fruit ------------------------------------------------------------- Obviously, a man can cause a shaking which is also identified as an earthquake, a quaking, to shake or shook, to cause a comotion, to cause trembling, to move out of place...and God can do these things. But the verses show that not all shakings, earthquakes and movement are literal. |
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Post by venge on Jul 21, 2019 12:11:17 GMT -6
6th seal and what is associated with it: 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. [the kings and what seems to be everyone] calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
greek words
oros meaning mountain petra meaning a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground. Yes, when we go to these words like mountains and rocks we see that the greek defines them as literal elements we are familiar with from our viewpoint on earth, and they are the words that John used to describe his vision. But he is seeing it from the Spiritual side..does that mean they are equivalent? How (and namely WHY) are what seems to be the entire portion of mankind asking the mountains to fall on them? Really? literal mountain to fall on everyone? Yes I know there are things like rocks slides, but from this list of people: Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, seeking to hide in the mountains and caves and want the mountains to fall on them. Not every place on earth has a mountain available. what about the slave and free? who is a slave and who is free? Is this literal slaves like in the early days of the US? We don't have cliff notes nor an interpreter on what John means here, but to me this is a picture that mankind is hiding in shame, among his religious constructs and the thing he thinks will keep him from being exposed by the Light of Truth. Back to the question of slave... Paul seems to define the slave and the free: For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Rom 8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
1Cor 2 But the natural man receiveth [accepts] not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If I were to say, the Lord is my ROCK, it would be translated in the greek as a stone, cliff piece, ledge, inert conglomerate of minerals held together to form a solid mass. Is Jesus a literal rock? It does not say the Lord is LIKE a rock in this psalm: The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. and the hebrew word used here for rock is defined as cliff, crag My point is that yes, the word seismos is used in regard to earthquake because the Spiritual vision shown to John looked like an earthquake. Yet we have to let the Lord (Holy Spirit) reveal what John saw from the heavenlies to what it means physically to man. I say lay all literal physical aside for a moment and meditate on what it is saying in the Spirit.. I am encouraging and imploring that it is ok to ponder the literal Spiritual most likely will not be the exact copy of earthly things. It is ok to seek the things of the Spirit. 16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
The substance belongs to Christ, and Paul says we know not Christ according to the flesh anymore. To me this seems important to apply to the Book of the Revealing of Christ. Seems fitting it is pertinent to seek the Spiritual meaning of these rather simple, literal, physical terms that John uses. Are we not taught to seek things of the Spirit? 9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. , And this is how I ponder it. The vision, as you said, was seen spiritually. He was in the spirit. When Daniel was shown his visions, he saw animals, horns, etc....these were symbolic and figurative. If Daniel was never interpreted, we'd have people today looking for a rough goat battling another for world domination. Now, the literal side is to be taken, in my opinion, always first unless it doesn't fit or scripture interprets it as something else or the message, as this one, is given in the spirit. But even literal scripture is given in O.T. times that references things literally to a figurative meaning that was normal for an Israelite to understand. Example: Babylon as a destroying mountain. Unmovable as a mountain and as strong as it is. Mountain fortresses were difficult to climb and siege though Babylon was not on a literal mountain. But as God said, a mountain could be tossed into the sea and sink, never to return symbolizing that kingdoms defeat and permanent destruction. So with regards to seismos, --this is to any reader, not barbiosheepgirl, with no earthquake references in the trumpets, why is it put there as a prelude to the trumpets unless it is not literal but symbolic of "what" the trumpets do. EDIT: When we see the voices, lightnings and thunders in heaven....are they supposed to be literal or figurative? Because I dont think heaven and God's throne need literal lightning and thunder and rain....and if that are not literal, the earthquake isn't either |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 22, 2019 20:47:01 GMT -6
6th seal and what is associated with it: 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. [the kings and what seems to be everyone] calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
greek words
oros meaning mountain petra meaning a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground. Yes, when we go to these words like mountains and rocks we see that the greek defines them as literal elements we are familiar with from our viewpoint on earth, and they are the words that John used to describe his vision. But he is seeing it from the Spiritual side..does that mean they are equivalent? How (and namely WHY) are what seems to be the entire portion of mankind asking the mountains to fall on them? Really? literal mountain to fall on everyone? Yes I know there are things like rocks slides, but from this list of people: Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, seeking to hide in the mountains and caves and want the mountains to fall on them. Not every place on earth has a mountain available. what about the slave and free? who is a slave and who is free? Is this literal slaves like in the early days of the US? We don't have cliff notes nor an interpreter on what John means here, but to me this is a picture that mankind is hiding in shame, among his religious constructs and the thing he thinks will keep him from being exposed by the Light of Truth. Back to the question of slave... Paul seems to define the slave and the free: For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body--whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2Co 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
Rom 8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
1Cor 2 But the natural man receiveth [accepts] not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If I were to say, the Lord is my ROCK, it would be translated in the greek as a stone, cliff piece, ledge, inert conglomerate of minerals held together to form a solid mass. Is Jesus a literal rock? It does not say the Lord is LIKE a rock in this psalm: The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. and the hebrew word used here for rock is defined as cliff, crag My point is that yes, the word seismos is used in regard to earthquake because the Spiritual vision shown to John looked like an earthquake. Yet we have to let the Lord (Holy Spirit) reveal what John saw from the heavenlies to what it means physically to man. I say lay all literal physical aside for a moment and meditate on what it is saying in the Spirit.. I am encouraging and imploring that it is ok to ponder the literal Spiritual most likely will not be the exact copy of earthly things. It is ok to seek the things of the Spirit. 16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
The substance belongs to Christ, and Paul says we know not Christ according to the flesh anymore. To me this seems important to apply to the Book of the Revealing of Christ. Seems fitting it is pertinent to seek the Spiritual meaning of these rather simple, literal, physical terms that John uses. Are we not taught to seek things of the Spirit? 9For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
10so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously
12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. , And this is how I ponder it. The vision, as you said, was seen spiritually. He was in the spirit. When Daniel was shown his visions, he saw animals, horns, etc....these were symbolic and figurative. If Daniel was never interpreted, we'd have people today looking for a rough goat battling another for world domination. Now, the literal side is to be taken, in my opinion, always first unless it doesn't fit or scripture interprets it as something else or the message, as this one, is given in the spirit. But even literal scripture is given in O.T. times that references things literally to a figurative meaning that was normal for an Israelite to understand. Example: Babylon as a destroying mountain. Unmovable as a mountain and as strong as it is. Mountain fortresses were difficult to climb and siege though Babylon was not on a literal mountain. But as God said, a mountain could be tossed into the sea and sink, never to return symbolizing that kingdoms defeat and permanent destruction. So with regards to seismos, --this is to any reader, not barbiosheepgirl, with no earthquake references in the trumpets, why is it put there as a prelude to the trumpets unless it is not literal but symbolic of "what" the trumpets do. EDIT: When we see the voices, lightnings and thunders in heaven....are they supposed to be literal or figurative? Because I dont think heaven and God's throne need literal lightning and thunder and rain....and if that are not literal, the earthquake isn't either I think most of those who would focus professionally on Biblical exegesis, would take the position that one would compare the same word used in multiple locations in scripture with the context of those locations, and then interpret that word when used in the same context elsewhere as meaning the same thing. That is, there is a consistency in the use of words and their interpretation, unless one finds a word which has no other uses or maybe one or two more other uses elsewhere, but with different context. Then, and only then, would there be a consensus that alternate meanings (both figurative, and symbolic) may be present and should be allowed for. Take for instance, the discussion we had here about the Rev 12 sign a while back, with regard to 'son' in the related passage of Isaiah being in the neuter case. Typically such a term would have the masculine, indicating a physical male child; but in the Rev 12 sign case, the neuter clearly indicates a corporate nature - the church, the male child of the virgin: Zion. |
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Post by Natalie on Jul 23, 2019 7:42:52 GMT -6
Venge, when looking at Rev 4:5 do you think this is taking place constantly or just at certain times?
It makes me think of the times in Scripture when people heard the voice of God. It was like it thundered. And when He is on the mountain in Exodus. To me, it is a demonstration of His power and doesn't necessarily happen constantly.
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Post by venge on Jul 23, 2019 8:00:24 GMT -6
yardstickI recognize using the same word, in all its uses, to determine its intended meaning. I’m not trying to get off track for that. Nevertheless, One cannot discount a literal and figurative meaning. I don’t discount neither with any word. Some here only take a literal stance which can be problematic if a different understanding was or is intended. In relation to seismos, it was seen in the spirit, not the flesh. As I had pointed out, the thundering and lightning before it are seen out of God’s throne. Did God cause literal rain, lightning and thunder in spiritual heaven? The earthquake follows this matter. It doesn’t change the fact that an earthquake happens as God says it will. It changes the understanding of what to look for. A literal earthquake, not mentioned in the Trumpets or a quaking of the earth that mankind will recognize as all TV, media, the talk of the town—great fear on what is happening in the world taken from the words right in Matthew. As far as the Rev 12 sign goes, you saw it in Sept 2017? I saw it when The 12 tribes were born and Christ was born and it was taught to me back in the 1980s. I don’t look to the sky for a sign. The only sign we need was Christ and one of the major signs of the end was explained how people would be and that is their spiritual life here on earth, not an equinox, star chart, comets, vortex’s, black holes, sun patterns, lunar movements and all things done in outer space where a great amount of time is studied on it drawing up maps and writing reports so that the time and attention on the zodiac is skewed. Hydra, Pleiades, Virgo, the Lion— None that was taught by the apostles or early church. Christ consistently challenged men in their hearts and warned those who love him that when he comes, it will be a time of trouble..spiritual darkness. I don’t recall him saying for us to wait for a random planetary alignment. If I recall, we know them “by their fruits”. That’s what we see. But I digress..
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Post by venge on Jul 23, 2019 8:07:14 GMT -6
Venge, when looking at Rev 4:5 do you think this is taking place constantly or just at certain times? It makes me think of the times in Scripture when people heard the voice of God. It was like it thundered. And when He is on the mountain in Exodus. To me, it is a demonstration of His power and doesn't necessarily happen constantly. Good question. I had not pondered how often these things would happen. But with respect to Revelation and the Mt Sinai event, it happens in each case as you point out. It is mentioned in Psalms and other books as well. So, I suppose it may not happen all day long but happens enough to make it not uncommon but perhaps not constantly. Thunder is loud and lightning is bright. As God speaks it references His words/actions are seen by all and heard by all just as thunder and lightning is. Thank you for participating |
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Post by mike on Jul 23, 2019 8:08:09 GMT -6
venge said: Ummm... Luke 21:25 There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
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